Catch up on stories from the past week (and beyond) at the Slashdot story archive

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Transportation Power

California Ban On Gas-Powered Cars Would Rewrite Plug-In Hybrid Rules (cnet.com) 123

Posted by BeauHD from the rules-of-the-road dept.
An anonymous reader quotes a report from CNET: As of now, California wants to implement an 80-20 mix where 80% of new cars sold will be totally electric or hydrogen-powered, and 20% may still feature a plug-in hybrid powertrain. Essentially, automakers will still be able to plop an engine under the hood come 2035. However, PHEVs will need to follow far more stringent definitions of the powertrain. California wants any plug-in hybrid to achieve 50 miles of all-electric range to meet the categorization -- a huge ask. Only two plug-in hybrids in recent years meet that criteria: the Chevrolet Volt (no longer on sale) and the Polestar 1 (soon to exit production). To achieve such a lofty range, automakers need to fit larger batteries, and when you're talking about a big battery and an internal-combustion engine, things get complex (and costly) quickly.

But, that's not all the state will need. Future PHEVs to qualify under these regulations will need to be capable of driving under only electric power throughout their charged range. So, no software to flick on the engine for a few moments to recoup some lost energy. While these regulations would actually benefit drivers to shift PHEVs away from "compliance cars" to something far more usable, the complexities may just turn automakers to focus exclusively on EVs. It all remains to be seen, however since the plans remain open for public comment until June 11 of this year. After that, the board will vote and detail a full proposal later this year.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

California Ban On Gas-Powered Cars Would Rewrite Plug-In Hybrid Rules More

California Ban On Gas-Powered Cars Would Rewrite Plug-In Hybrid Rules

Comments Filter:
  • "open for public comment until June 11 of this year. After that, the board will vote" (just like they always plan to from the beginning) " and detail a full proposal later this year."

    Just going through the motions to make it look good. Before they do what they want.

    • Re:Funny! Read this as (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Canberra1 ( 3475749 ) on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @10:59PM (#61375272)
      Focus on cost of ownership. These idiots know nothing. LPG tanks have to be pressure tested every 10-15 years, and annual gas fitter tests yearly. Hydrogen tanks with much higher pressures will require $$$ expensive testing, and refinement as cars have impacts, crashes potholes etc. When the masses realize the cost of annual inspection fees, Hydrogen may not be so popular. So does a bingle make your car a writeoff? Hydrogen does not smell, so go figure what happens in an underground carpark when hot joins contract - like when you hear the exhaust pipe creak with metal expansion/contraction. Secondly if you double the battery size to get the range, fire containment costs rise - think of Boeing and and the battery fire issues. Prius puts the batteries in the same spot where fuel tanks were placed for sound reasons, maximum safety and common sense. To increase the range, batteries would have to protrude, or the pack liable to flexing or having poorer heat dissipation. So it it their wish to eliminate small cars? Finally some smarter people will add small engine generators in their car boots or pickup trays, and the chances of a hydrogen leak around lithium batteries with hydrogen vents look like a safety nightmare. Then the driverless Tesla - where the fire would not go out, and outwitted the local fireries. Conclusion: They are inventing rules, and never consulted an engineer or consulted industry.

      • Re:Funny! Read this as (Score:4, Informative)

        by msk ( 6205 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @08:06AM (#61376152)

        Methane doesn't smell, either.

        Odorants can be added to hydrogen, just as they are to methane.

      • LPG tanks have to be pressure tested every 10-15 years

        No. They have to be recertified every ten years. But that doesn't have to involve a hydrotest. That is only required for repaired or visually damaged tanks. A certifying authority (which I believe can just be a propane company) can certify on a visual inspection.

        Battery packs should really be inspected, too.

      • Then the driverless Tesla - where the fire would not go out,

        For the record, that story was bovine manure.

  • Article oversells it (Score:4, Informative)

    by kamapuaa ( 555446 ) on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @08:52PM (#61374958) Homepage

    There's no "lofty" heights of research here. Toyota's Prius Prime is a $20k car (after subsidies) that does this already, albeit for only 25 miles. Strap in a larger battery, and Toyota could sell a 50 mile version next month.

    It doesn't quite make economic sense yet, but in 14 years presumably batteries will be cheaper and lighter.

    That's just one example. GM Volt was another cheap car. This technology already exists.

    • Re:Article oversells it (Score:5, Interesting)

      by spitzak ( 4019 ) on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @11:14PM (#61375300) Homepage

      I have a Prius Prime and it gets closer to 30 miles on the battery alone. 30 is enough for many round trips we do, we only recharge it at night with a 110 volt outlet, and really are using the gas very little.

      I agree that if 25 or 30 miles is possible now, 50 will be easily achieved in 2035.

      • Is there a speed limit on electric motor only? The article suggest that - at least city - driving should be all electric for the first 50 or so miles. Romanian cities have speed limits of up to 80 km/h (legally), but all I've ever seen were 70 km/h (43 mph) or less.

        • No, plug-in hybrids can push the car at full speed. Though range goes down when you get to highway speeds.

          The series-hybrid version of the Prius (as opposed to the plug-in hybrid version) has an "EV" mode where it only uses the battery, with a speed limit. But that can be turned on and off with a button.

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      In 14 years time a hybrid will be pointless for most people. It will only be niche applications where hybrids make sense.

      Everyone else will be buying fully electric vehicles.

      • Most US cities will not get their shit together to install curbside charging. People in the sticks might actually fare better, if they have short commutes; they are far likelier to have off street parking, and a dryer outlet to plug into. They are also more likely, however, to buy cars in some other state and drive them in, because they are set in their ways.

        I think your estimate is overly optimistic and/or ambitious.

        • What on earth are you talking about? Why would cities need curbside charging?

          Anyone with a parking lot can drop $10k and throw some chargers into it. They're about 0 maintenance and super cheap to run, even if you give the electricity away. I'm already seeing stores in my area doing this. It's a super cheap way to get people to come into your business. The parking decks in my city are adding more charging stalls every year.

          I'm already seeing ads for apartments with charging stalls as amenities.

          Everyone with

          • Re:Article oversells it (Score:4, Informative)

            by Merk42 ( 1906718 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @11:45AM (#61376890)

            The only people who would need curbside charging are the people who street park and who can't park in a parking deck or charging stall at a business once a week. It's going to be a vanishingly small number of people.

            There are plenty of people who live somewhere with only on street parking, work in a place with only on street parking, and shop at a place with only on street parking

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

            Actually, you don't need to install fast chargers. Just 1.5kW chargers in an office park is surprisingly "good enough" - it's slow and cheap to install (it's just another 110V 15A circuit) which means anyone who parks there can park all day.

            Fast chargers suck because you're typically limited to parking for 1-2 hours or so before you must move your car. And courtesy demands you vacate the space the instant your car's fully charged. (Tesla charges a fee for overstaying your welcome at the superchargers).

            So I

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by jabuzz ( 182671 )

              Why on earth would you install a 110V charger? It makes no fucking sense when for basically the same price you can install a 220V charger and get twice the charging capacity.

  • Today it's 80/20 with 50 miles of electric range.

    Last summer it was all electric only.

    At this rate, a 2005 new old stock Prius will be legal by 2035.

    How about managing to keep the lights on through the summer and not having to power down when it's cloudy. Then they can talk about EV mandates.

    • The Honda Clarity on the website claims only 47 mile range, my a friend i know who has one claims he can get 60 miles easily. I wonder how they measure "range" on these, it's probably tested by someone with a lead foot.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      a post of your usual quality.

    • How about managing to keep the lights on through the summer and not having to power down when it's cloudy. Then they can talk about EV mandates.

      Blame PG&E, who spent money on executive bonuses and lobbying instead of upgrading grid infrastructure - directly leading to forest fires.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by djinn6 ( 1868030 )

      The California government routinely overestimates how liberal Californians are. There are plenty of leftists when it doesn't cost them anything, but the moment you ask them to take a lifestyle hit they instantly retreat back to the center. Just take a look at the ridesharing proposition from last year. Yeah, you might argue it won because of advertising, but even if it were the case, the voter split was already close enough for advertising to be able to tip the scales. Meanwhile, the propositions to end the

  • hydrogen-powered (Score:4, Insightful)

    by whoever57 ( 658626 ) on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @09:12PM (#61375018) Journal

    Just no.

    Hydrogen is the fossil-fuel industry's dream. Most hydrogen is produced from natural gas, emitting CO2 in the process.

    Hydrogen is far more expensive per mile than any other fuel or energy source.

    Is it even possible to drive from San Francisco to LA in a hydrogen-powered car? There are H2 fuel stations in the cities, but along the highways? And there are almost none outside of CA (I think that there is one in Hawaii).

    • What exactly is wrong with ethanol?

      I don't mean corn ethanol to buy votes in the midwest but actual honest to god sugarcane or switchgrass ethanol?

      It's not perfect but it doesn't require reinventing everything and works in most engines with minimal redesign.

      • Re: hydrogen-powered (Score:4, Informative)

        by Ichijo ( 607641 ) on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @09:40PM (#61375084) Journal

        Ethanol is not as land-efficient as biodiesel, which in turn is not as land-efficient as photovoltaic panels to charge batteries.

        • But is easily stockpiled and requires little new infrastructure or ecosystem to grow up around it to be useful as a transportation fuel.

          It's more efficient to purchase paper by uncut 1000 ft x 4ft roll. I still purchase my paper in smaller quantities at a higher price per square inch because the one metric that captures the imagination is not the only one that is relevant.

          • But is easily stockpiled and requires little new infrastructure or ecosystem to grow up around it to be useful as a transportation fuel.

            No, ethanol is not easily stockpiled. It is hygroscopic which means that storing it in large tanks is problematic; these tanks have to be vented to avoid damage due to changes in atmospheric pressure. Ethanol literally makes gasoline harder to store!

            • Re: (Score:3)

              by jbengt ( 874751 )

              No, ethanol is not easily stockpiled. . . . these tanks have to be vented to avoid damage due to changes in atmospheric pressure.

              All non-pressurized liquid storage tanks have to be vented to avoid damage due to changes in pressure, and even pressurized tanks need emergency relief venting in case of overpressurization.
              Still, the hygroscopic property of ethanol does cause issues.

              As an aside, butanol would be a better choice than ethanol.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by DarkOx ( 621550 )

          Yeah well those batteries are still an open question.

          Right now the big source of the key input for them Li comes from China where the potential for open hostility is increase but even putting that aside the competition with their domestic consumption means all these batteries might simply not be available or not be affordable in 10 years!

          Meanwhile developing our domestic sources is significant threat to bio diversity as it could literally drive various desert flora to extinction; for example Eriogonum tiehm

      • What exactly is wrong with ethanol?

        It doesn’t fit into a future of “sell disposable vehicles to people who can afford to replace them every decade, and offer self-driving cars as a service to the rest of the plebs.”

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by PPH ( 736903 )

        sugarcane or switchgrass ethanol

        Switchgrass: Get the bugs worked out of cellulosic ethanol production.

        Sugarcane: Other countries already do this. But defeating the US sugar cartel is going to be a tougher nut to crack than just going with fusion power.

        • Sugarcane: Other countries already do this. But defeating the US sugar cartel is going to be a tougher nut to crack than just going with fusion power.

          Sugarcane also does not grow in the vast majority of the US farmland. Sugar beets, which you can grow in the US climate, do not produce as much sucrose/acre.

          That's why more-tropical places like Brazil can and do use it heavily, but the US doesn't.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by PPH ( 736903 )

            Sugarcane also does not grow in the vast majority of the US farmland.

            That's OK. Brazil uses about 1% of its arable land for ethanol production. But since the sugarcane base stock processes are so much more efficient, less land would be needed than for our corn-based production. But since sugarcane production is limited to a few areas, less farmers will be happy. So that's another political impediment.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sfcat ( 872532 )

        What exactly is wrong with ethanol?

        You hit a barrier where you can't make more because it uses a substantial amount of the land which normally would be used for food. It's called the Biofuel Barrier [ethanolproducer.com]. Also, last time we tried biofuel, we drove up food prices enough to trigger 12 civil wars in the Middle East and northern Africa. You probably know it as the Arab Spring which was triggered by rising food prices triggered by conversion of US food production into biofuel starting the previous year. You can make synthetic fuels from seawater b

    • Re: hydrogen-powered (Score:5, Informative)

      by DDumitru ( 692803 ) <doug @ e a s y c o .com> on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @09:53PM (#61375102) Homepage

      It is easy to drive from San Francisco to LA. It has been possible for over 7 years. I have done it several times.

      Also, if you think H2 is dangerous, please read the following presentation from Sandia Labs.

      https://www.osti.gov/biblio/11... [osti.gov]

      In particular, the "JouleThomson Effect" does result in increased temperature, but at 3X the pressure of a FC car (250 bar) the temperature increase is 53 C. A FC car is max 70 bar. Add ambient temperature and you have H2 at 75C. H2 ignites at about 585C, so Joule-Thomson is over 500 C short of causing ignition. This is why "it has never happened".

      • I've never even heard of "the JouleThomson Effect" so I'm pretty clear that was never considered a big safety hazard.

        The big safety hazards are fueling stations (which have already had combustion problems even with exceptional preparation for testing) and the tank in the vehicle itself.

        Batteries are also hazardous, though, so it's not like hydrogen is unique in that regard.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jezwel ( 2451108 )

      Most hydrogen is produced from natural gas, emitting CO2 in the process.

      I think you mean, most hydrogen now is produced from natural gas.
      My state has around a dozen renewable hydrogen projects in feasibility, planning, or design stage. These range from tiny scale (supplying a remote camp site currently using generators) to large (multi-billion $ replacement power plant) scale designs.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dgatwood ( 11270 )

      Is it even possible to drive from San Francisco to LA in a hydrogen-powered car? There are H2 fuel stations in the cities, but along the highways? And there are almost none outside of CA (I think that there is one in Hawaii).

      Of course it is. The first thing you do is buy a rigid airship and fill it with hydrogen, then tie it to your back bumper. I think you see where this is going.

      Next, drive down CA-1. You must remain on CA-1, so that in the event of a fire, you can look out the window and remark loudly about the extremely large aquatic mammal (Trichechidae) that you see down on the coast.

      But seriously, there's a hydrogen filling station at Harris Ranch, right next door to the Tesla supercharger.

  • Batteries continue to improve so it's not hard to image them doubling in range by 2035. Also things like Free Piston Linear Generators FPLG make the gas part small, affordable and easy. In fact this should have been done decades ago, oh well. The engineers on GM's EV1 tried it out (series hybrid) but with a gas turbine.

    • Halving cost is easy to imaging, provided that the raw materials are managed. Doubling range is a lot harder. The chemistry of energy density is not that "tweakable" and if you push it up, things tend to "burn worse". Battery fires are bad because battery energy density is already pretty high.

      This is not to say that batteries wont work, at least for cars. Batteries are less useful for bigger stuff like Trucks, Trains, Ships, and especially Planes.

      • Thereâ(TM)s been promising breakthroughs with structural battery efficiency and capacity. It looks likely that we will see cars, trucks and planes saving weight and increasing storage capacity/range with structural batteries within the next few years

      • Add in the fact that PIHB cars at a price point just below the lowest end full electric, that adding a larger battery will put them over the full electric price.
        You will have an ICE AND a big battery?? It is not economically feasible unless batteries get dirt cheap.

  • And without it, itâ(TM)s all just bollocks.

    • Re:Zip on generating electricity (Score:4, Interesting)

      by DDumitru ( 692803 ) <doug @ e a s y c o .com> on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @09:58PM (#61375114) Homepage

      California generating capacity is actually in pretty good shape. Different resources come on-line at different times of the year. Today, the peak was 43.2 GW available and 30.1 GW used. Not a bad surplus of available generation.

      http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOut... [caiso.com]

      Now individual regions can get in trouble with wild fires requiring transmission line being taken down. This is really bad if it is "you". It is not a generation issue.

      Finally, the CAISO is not at all like the Texas "we used to be Enron" energy scammer commission. Plus California does connect to other states (and countries).

      • Re:Zip on generating electricity (Score:4, Informative)

        by dsgrntlxmply ( 610492 ) on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @11:35PM (#61375350)
        California generating capacity on average might be in good shape, but I had a regional load reduction outage within the past year on a hot evening with no wind. Your sweeping generalization is not accurate. Transmission failures and disconnects go beyond wildfires. I know exactly where I was during the 1996 August western grid collapse: in a taxi crawling down Lincoln Blvd. from LAX on a massive beach traffic day with all traffic signals failed.
      • CA doesn't have reserve capacity for generation. That is why the power fails all the time. If it was in good shape that would never happen. It is part of the legacy of Gray Davis, aka governor brownout.

  • "A huge ask"? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by K. S. Kyosuke ( 729550 ) on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @09:44PM (#61375088)
    I don't understand how is "a huge ask" to demand that vehicles marketed as basically BEVs with the ability to occasionally drive long distances actually function off of their battery reasonably well. Surely a vehicle unable to drive even an average US commute wouldn't qualify as a usable PHEV, for example.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by djinn6 ( 1868030 )

      If a PHEV drives 70% of the commute distance on battery power, then it saved direct fossil fuel consumption by 70% over an ICE car. California electricity is 40% fossil fuels [ca.gov], so that translates to approximately 40% total fossil fuel savings (ignoring efficiency differences between the cars). A fully electric car would only save 20% more.

  • The PHEV seems like the worst of all worlds.
    a) Initial Cost: A PHEV is expensive like a battery powered car. It trades the cost of a second power train against the cost of a larger battery, in a market with falling battery costs.
    b) Maintenance Costs: A PHEV has the new technology of the battery power car combined with the unreliability of a non-standard internal combustion engine. Electrics are cheap to maintain because they need so little maintenance. Thus, even if you need special skills to repair an

    • Re:I don't get the attraction of a PHEV (Score:5, Insightful)

      by timeOday ( 582209 ) on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @10:05PM (#61375134)
      The Prius is a major torpedo into most or all of those arguments.

    • My Pacifica hybrid also does some damage to those arguments.
      a) With 30 mile electric range, it qualifies for enough federal and state subsidies to render cost of ownership concerns moot.
      b) Speculation. I would speculate that any new vehicle has this risk, but most is mitigated by point a).
      c) 10 year warranty on my Pachy's pack.
      d) See point a). I've run the numbers many times and even if I sell within the first 3 years, I'm netting less than $300 a month for a very luxurious and useful vehicle.
      e) Speculatio

      • So I take it you like the Pacifica? I've been very tempted.

        I've been hoping for a pure electric minivan, but they don't seem to exist. There's a bizarro VW on the way, but that's all I can find.

        Looking to replace a Honda Odyssey within the next couple of years.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      a. Maybe you should price PHEVs then rather than speak in hypotheticals.
      b. Given that it is generally accepted that electric drivetrains are very low maintenance, you are wrong here.
      c. Wrong, because you fail to understand what really wears out a battery. PHEV batteries rarely operate at charge extremes, where wear is greatest.
      d. Not as bad as BEVs have been, perhaps not as bad as BEV or ICE will be, especially considering you are wrong about b and c.
      e. This point is predicated on several absurd assumptions

    • I own a Chevy Volt.

      I would far prefer a full-electric car, and have had maintenance issues that were a pain in the butt. The "hybrid guy" wasn't in that day, or it took 4 tries for the dealer to figure out the spark plugs and ignition coil needed to be replaced. The car is indeed more complex, and it appears I'm training the dealer's service department.

      The battery packs also had to be replaced at 8 years, but the car has a 10-year warranty on those, so I didn't have to pay. The car's software can not cal

  • Crystal ball (Score:4, Insightful)

    by bugs2squash ( 1132591 ) on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @10:09PM (#61375146)

    Seems to me that the cars could get by with a very small engine, say a 400cc motocycle engine, if they just knew what to expect from a journey.

    If I told the car I wanted to make a 300 mile journey, the engine could start up almost immediately, be enough to keep the car at a steady speed on the freeway and use the battery for the occasional spurt of power needed to overtake something.

    If I told the car that I had a short trip round town planned it could run just from the battery

    Picking the right charging strategey seems to me would make a small, compact engine usable. Small engine = smaller everything, cooling, gas consumption, more space for batteries, less weight

    For that matter the engine could be in a trailer or even lifted in and out of the trunk to use as necessary

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by eobanb ( 823187 )
      This was exactly the idea behind the BMW i3 (with the range extender option)

    • If the "in-car" navigation unit has the destination, it can calculate when (and how much) to use the gasoline engine - fill the battery before large inclines, high-speed areas, ... and let the battery empty before long descents. Also, residual heat from gasoline engine will be useful based on expected weather - though, at one hour drive on electric battery this wouldn't make such a big difference.

      • Adding route planning information to the mix seems like a bonus to me. The only downside is that the car manufacturers will optimize out any gains in favor of reducing costs. So they'll just give their range estimates based on someone living on top of mount Evans commuting to Idaho springs and abandoning the car there.

    • For that matter the engine could be in a trailer or even lifted in and out of the trunk to use as necessary

      No. And seriously NO.

      In order to be useful the generator has to be heavy. I have a 8kW generator. I'll bet that 95% or more of Slashdotters couldn't load it into the back of my pickup. I can barely do it and I'm huge and do physical work for a living.

      So, just put it on a trailer, you say. Now you have a different but even larger problem. It's not really enough generator to be worth trailering, but you're doing it anyway. While long trailers are harder to fit into places, short trailers are harder to control

  • Heavier trucks will become even more popular?
    Not sure how California calisfies them re the above 80-20 and later 100% electrics.

    • California classifies them as commercial vehicles even when not used for commerce. This doesn't mean they require a CDL, which by federal law and also in California (and most other states) is restricted to motortrucks or buses over 26k lb. GVWR which are used for commerce. It just means they cost more to register.

      Light trucks have less stringent requirements than cars, obviously. They probably shouldn't, though, in that they should have to meet the same standards as a car while carrying their maximum passen

  • But why? (Score:3)

    by SoftwareArtist ( 1472499 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:12AM (#61375420)

    It's hard to imagine a PHEV still being a good choice for anyone in 2035. By that time, EVs should be cheaper than ICEs, and hybrids will be the most expensive of all. They'll have plenty of range and chargers should be common almost everywhere. Taking a perfectly good EV and adding a hybrid powertrain will add weight and cost for no benefit.

    Hybrids were always meant to be an interim technology until batteries reached a price and energy density that made EVs the best choice for everything. They're already getting close. They should reach it long before 2035.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dgatwood ( 11270 )

      It's hard to imagine a PHEV still being a good choice for anyone in 2035.

      Three words: car rental companies.

      For individuals at home, driving an EV is rarely, if ever a problem, but when you're taking a long trip, you probably won't want to put up with all the extra hours sitting at a charger. So I'd imagine a lot of car rental companies will buy a *lot* of plug-in hybrids for that reason.

      Also, it will take a long time to build up enough charging infrastructure to accommodate every person staying at every hotel needing to charge a car at night every night. And until we reach tha

      • Do you like renting a car? I certainly don't.

        • If you want to drive your own car on a road trip you also want a hybrid.

          • I have not heard a good thing about horsepower in hybrids. Ability to accelerate quickly is a safety concern on the highway when passing cars. I have literally had to pass rows of small cars because they did not have enough power to pass.

          • Why?

            It would cost more and it would be more likely to break down.

          • Why? A Tesla Model 3 LR will take you (realistically, not using manufacturers estimate) 450 to 470 miles with a single 15-minute pit stop. Do your road trips go further than that every day of the trip?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by DarkOx ( 621550 )

          Me I love it - cheap to get the extra insurance, you get to drive it like you stole it for a few days, mash the throttle, crank it into turns chewing up the shocks and springs, heat the breaks till the rotors warp and drop it off with no responsibility for the maintenance.

          Renting cars while traveling is great fun!

          • Except if you want something with any exceptional power, you will be paying through the nose.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by DarkOx ( 621550 )

              True but honestly there is a lot of fun to be had just thrashing a little econobox around the industrial parks etc I usually have to visit as a consultant.

              Even something truly crappy like a Versa will leave rubber on the road.

              When its not your gas, brake pads, rotors, or tires - cars are fun generally.

      • Also, it will take a long time to build up enough charging infrastructure to accommodate every person staying at every hotel needing to charge a car at night every night.

        I think you're being overly pessimistic. EV chargers at hotels are already really common. Check out https://www.plugshare.com/map/... [plugshare.com]. And that's happened with only a few percent of cars being electric. By 2035 the number of chargers will be much much higher. Charging your rental car at your hotel won't be a problem.

        Chargers are also common at restaurants, groceries, rest stops, etc. And they'll be a lot more common in 2035. When you're on a long car trip, anywhere you stop along the way to rest or e

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dgatwood ( 11270 )

          Also, it will take a long time to build up enough charging infrastructure to accommodate every person staying at every hotel needing to charge a car at night every night.

          I think you're being overly pessimistic. EV chargers at hotels are already really common.

          Really common, but not really common in the quantities needed, or even the right order of magnitude. Many hotels have a few chargers. Those hotels have installed roughly as many chargers as they could add without adding a new building transformer, which usually means low single-digit charging heads per hotel.

          Suppose we're talking about a high-end hotel with 300 rooms. Adding 296 more chargers at 30 amps each means 8,880 amp service. Assuming a worst-case power factor of 0.6, that's 416 KVA. Imagine add

          • I would not expect it to really take off until EVs are fairly ubiquitous, and even then, only if customers demand it.

            I totally agree. But I expect it to happen long before 2035. If 80% of cars are required to be EVs by then, that's ubiquitous by any standard. And if customers don't demand it, that means it wasn't a big problem after all.

      • but when you're taking a long trip, you probably won't want to put up with all the extra hours sitting at a charger

        A Tesla Model 3 LR can put about 150 miles onto the battery in 15 minutes. That's like stopping for gas and taking a piss. If you have already filled it up prior to heading out on your long trip, so, let's say it has a realistic range of about 320 miles before you start, and you can add 150 with a 15 minute pit stop, how far do you expect to go that requires all those extra hours? LA to San Fra

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      Which is why the target percentage of sales is low. Think more, post less. PHEV eases the transition to BEV while charging infrastructure develops. Government targets must consider this.

  • "To achieve such a lofty range, automakers need to fit larger batteries, and when you're talking about a big battery and an internal-combustion engine, things get complex (and costly) quickly. "

    For fuck's sake, a bigger battery makes a PHEV absolutely zero more complex. Why do articles on technical subjects have to be written by illiterate people, on a technical site no less!

    Furthermore, a bigger battery allows for more electrical power, enabling the ICE to be further downsized. Heavier? Costlier? Depen

    • For fuck's sake, a bigger battery makes a PHEV absolutely zero more complex.

      That is literally false. A bigger battery is achieved through more cells, which makes the battery pack more complex.

      It's not much complexity compared to the rest of the vehicle, but "absolutely zero" does not mean what you think it means.

      You might as well just misuse the word "literally" while you're at it.

  • Good luck charging your car. My old apartment complex still doesn't have any charging stations, and I doubt they will unless the State is going to buy them about 40.

    • If that's important to you, why not rent an apartment which includes charge stalls as an amenity? Or find parking at work where you can charge? Or charge at the store when you do your weekly shopping? Or park in the parking deck with the charging stalls once a week and go out to eat?

      The nice thing about using electricity for cars is that it's literally EVERYWHERE that business is done. Unlike gasoline which needs to be in a centralized spot, electricity is already everywhere. It's relatively inexpensive to

      • If that's important to you, why not rent an apartment which includes charge stalls as an amenity?

        California is saying it's important to everyone, but demand vastly exceeds supply. And in many cases it's basically impossible to install the necessary infrastructure without significant capital.

        Or find parking at work where you can charge?

        Street parking is limited in most California cities. Often limits on overnight parking in suburban areas and metered parking in urban areas.

        Or charge at the store when you do your weekly shopping? Or park in the parking deck with the charging stalls once a week and go out to eat?

        A 1 hour charge once a week? What is that going to accomplish? Nothing really.

        It's more practical is to charge at work for 8 hours. You pay a premium at these charging stations,

  • Good news (Score:3)

    by Xenna ( 37238 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:07AM (#61375982)

    I have a Volt and even though 50 miles is a bit of an exaggeration, it's a very practical car. A bit more range, (shall we say double?) would be great. I drive at least 90% of the time on electric only.

    Even though I live very far from California this kind of regulations would make such a car commercially more viable.

  • A small 2 cylinder free piston range extender with an otherwise full electric car could be an useful hybrid. The range extender only needs enough power for highway cruising plus AC, peak power during acceleration can come from the battery.

  • My Honda Clarity gets mid-40s nominal in the CA SF Bay Area, often over 50 in warmer weather. It's ridiculous to claim that 50 miles EV range will be a challenge with 14 years of battery and powertrain development. Which said pure EVs will certainly win on almost all use cases by then, for the same reason.

Slashdot Top Deals

One man's constant is another man's variable. -- A.J. Perlis

Close