Jerusalem Post: Israel's Gaza Strip Bombing Was 'World's First AI War' (jpost.com) 276
"For the first time, artificial intelligence was a key component and power multiplier in fighting the enemy," says a senior officer in the intelligence corps of the Israeli military, describing the technology's use in 11 days of fighting in the Gaza Strip.
They're quoted in a Jerusalem Post article on "the world's first AI war": Soldiers in Unit 8200, an Intelligence Corps elite unit, pioneered algorithms and code that led to several new programs called "Alchemist," "Gospel" and "Depth of Wisdom," which were developed and used during the fighting. Collecting data using signal intelligence, visual intelligence, human intelligence , geographical intelligence, and more, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has mountains of raw data that must be combed through to find the key pieces necessary to carry out a strike. "Gospel" used AI to generate recommendations for troops in the research division of Military Intelligence, which used them to produce quality targets and then passed them on to the IAF to strike...
While the IDF had gathered thousands of targets in the densely populated coastal enclave over the past two years, hundreds were gathered in real time, including missile launchers that were aimed at Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. The military believes using AI helped shorten the length of the fighting, having been effective and quick in gathering targets using super-cognition. The IDF carried out hundreds of strikes against Hamas and PIJ, including rocket launchers, rocket manufacturing, production and storage sites, military intelligence offices, drones, commanders' residences and Hamas's naval commando unit. Israel has destroyed most of the naval commando unit's infrastructure and weaponry, including several autonomous GPS-guided submarines that can carry 30 kg. of explosives.
IDF Unit 9900's satellites have gathered geographical intelligence over the years. They were able to automatically detect changes in terrain in real time so that during the operation, the military was able to detect launching positions and hit them after firing. For example, Unit 9900 troops using satellite imagery were able to detect 14 rocket launchers that were located next to a school... One strike, against senior Hamas operative Bassem Issa, was carried out with no civilian casualties despite being in a tunnel under a high-rise building surrounded by six schools and a medical clinic... Hamas's underground "Metro" tunnel network was also heavily damaged over the course of several nights of airstrikes. Military sources said they were able to map the network, consisting of hundreds of kilometers under residential areas, to a degree where they knew almost everything about them.
The mapping of Hamas's underground network was done by a massive intelligence-gathering process that was helped by the technological developments and use of Big Data to fuse all the intelligence.
They're quoted in a Jerusalem Post article on "the world's first AI war": Soldiers in Unit 8200, an Intelligence Corps elite unit, pioneered algorithms and code that led to several new programs called "Alchemist," "Gospel" and "Depth of Wisdom," which were developed and used during the fighting. Collecting data using signal intelligence, visual intelligence, human intelligence , geographical intelligence, and more, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has mountains of raw data that must be combed through to find the key pieces necessary to carry out a strike. "Gospel" used AI to generate recommendations for troops in the research division of Military Intelligence, which used them to produce quality targets and then passed them on to the IAF to strike...
While the IDF had gathered thousands of targets in the densely populated coastal enclave over the past two years, hundreds were gathered in real time, including missile launchers that were aimed at Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. The military believes using AI helped shorten the length of the fighting, having been effective and quick in gathering targets using super-cognition. The IDF carried out hundreds of strikes against Hamas and PIJ, including rocket launchers, rocket manufacturing, production and storage sites, military intelligence offices, drones, commanders' residences and Hamas's naval commando unit. Israel has destroyed most of the naval commando unit's infrastructure and weaponry, including several autonomous GPS-guided submarines that can carry 30 kg. of explosives.
IDF Unit 9900's satellites have gathered geographical intelligence over the years. They were able to automatically detect changes in terrain in real time so that during the operation, the military was able to detect launching positions and hit them after firing. For example, Unit 9900 troops using satellite imagery were able to detect 14 rocket launchers that were located next to a school... One strike, against senior Hamas operative Bassem Issa, was carried out with no civilian casualties despite being in a tunnel under a high-rise building surrounded by six schools and a medical clinic... Hamas's underground "Metro" tunnel network was also heavily damaged over the course of several nights of airstrikes. Military sources said they were able to map the network, consisting of hundreds of kilometers under residential areas, to a degree where they knew almost everything about them.
The mapping of Hamas's underground network was done by a massive intelligence-gathering process that was helped by the technological developments and use of Big Data to fuse all the intelligence.
What's in a name. (Score:3)
Leave it to the Alchemist of War, to preach the Gospel, and convince us that warmongering AI was born from the Depth of Wisdom.
Oh, and uh..we're just gonna go ahead and call ours Skynet. That way, we won't have to change the name later. Might mess up all kinds of code.
The Ultimate Irony (Score:2)
* Skynet, suddenly calculates it has created a Y3K problem, leading to its own demise at the stroke of (Jimmy-Buffet-Midnight-Somewhere), on December 31st, 2999, in the Year of Our Lord *
[Command Module ZorgL0rd] "BleetBart! How could you let this happen!"
[Terminator BleetBart] "Hey, don't look at me, you had me calculating weapons algorithms for moving human targets in real-time all day, remember!?"
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Great, so civilian deaths were only 10x (Score:5, Insightful)
While I guess the Israelis should be proud that they "only" killed 10x as many civilians as the Palestinians did (and if they had attacked indiscriminately they could have killed many many more) the problem is; why did any of these deaths occur at all? I mean if the Israelis (with Trump's support) hadn't abandoned peace (actually it came with the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin) then no-one would have died.
Of course the Palestinians aren't blameless either, certainly there are factions who don't want peace either but when one side has such overwhelming superiority, in every way (and that includes political support from other countries), they dictate the terms. The only thing the Palestinians can do is resist.
Let's face it, the Palestinians are to the Israelis as a young child is to a man (armed with nuclear clubs). Should you judge them by the same standards? As the absolute dominant power they have responsibility, just as a man does not kill a child when the child kicks him. However, the Israelis seem to view this as an opportunity for abuse, while not quite rounding them up in camps as the Chinese are doing, they seem to be doing all they can to subjugate them and keep them in misery, ESPECIALLY without dignity.
My own take is from speaking as a descendant of another oppressed culture (but aren't we all?). I am of Korean descent, my parents having survived the Japanese occupation. So when I hear of suicide attacks and whatnot I ask myself, would I be doing the same? I'm not saying it's right but when I read of the daily indignancies that have been going on now for GENERATIONS, I'm wondering if a quick death would be preferable to lifelong humiliation. I mean, let's face it, Israel never has, and never will treat the Palestinians as equals; just look at how they kept them from being vaccinated (despite themselves having the highest vaccination rate in the world). So they seem to be content on oppressing them, forever.
The only difference is now they've got A.I. on their side. While here they are celebrating its use for reducing casualties what you don't see is them using it in facial recognition, hacking into people accounts, infiltrating peoples lives and furthering their campaign of control, suspicion and humiliation. I can only thank god the Japanese didn't have these tools when they tried (and almost succeeded) in wiping out Korea.
Re:Great, so civilian deaths were only 10x (Score:4, Insightful)
The Koreans never declared an unending genocidal war against the Japanese. The same cannot be said for Palestinians against Jews.
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I am of Korean descent, my parents having survived the Japanese occupation. So when I hear of suicide attacks and whatnot I ask myself, would I be doing the same?
There's an important difference there.
The Japanese Empire was fascist and xenophobic, with no regards for human life as they didn't hold the notion of "the value of human life", not even nominally. Such an enemy cannot be dealt with by means other than a) utter subjugation hoping for mercy in slavery, or b) desperate fighting back hoping to tire them while accepting your side will be relentlessly massacred to the last person if it drags long enough.
The Israeli government, very differently, is a democracy un
AI AS AN EXCUSE (Score:2)
So they can now say "the AI made me do it" when they purposely go blow up the Press or refugee camp or a school. Not that they seem to need much excuse since they just lie and say some bad guys were in those locations at any point in the past... when they can block most the rockets from even hitting them (the few that make it past the defense are probably such defective junk they wobble past interception.)
Re: Great, so civilian deaths were only 10x (Score:2)
One side deliberately targets combatants, trying to minimize human casualties.
One side deliberately targets civilians, trying to maximize innocent casualties and has repeatedly called for the genocide of the other.
I fail to see the moral equivalence, regardless that one is stronger than the other.
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why did any of these deaths occur at all?
Are you asking why so many civilians died or asking why the war was started. Hamas gets a lot of the blame for civilian deaths. That's typically what happens when you important civilian infrastructure as your bases of operation in the hope that the other side will think it's just some civilian hospital.
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unlike Israel, Hamas does target civilian population intentionally.
lolololol etc.
Unlike Israel? They absolutely target civilians, and illegal civilian target like headquarters of news organizations. They also have a long history of assassinating reporters, to prevent you from finding out more.
Neither Hamas nor the Israeli government has any moral high ground whatsoever. But the average person does not support their murderous ways, either. And frankly, one is likely in collusion with the other.
Re:Great, so civilian deaths were only 10x (Score:5, Insightful)
Unlike Israel? They absolutely target civilians
Do you realise that, if that was the case and Israel would go `full Dresden mode', the population of Gaza would become virtually extinct in less than a week?
illegal civilian target like headquarters of news organizations
Calm down, there were GPS jammers and other means of electronic warfare in the building. The journalists, without a single exception, were not harmed in any way because Israel warned them and ordered to evacuate the building, giving them one hour before the strike was made. Israel does not target civilians deliberately. Hamas does.
Open your eyes.
Simple... (Score:3)
Then please explain how this article, and many other articles, boasting of Israeli military prowess and technology, appear coincidentally after a largely Palestinian civilian death toll.
Terrorists using civilians as human shields.
Though maybe human helmet would be a more apt metaphor considering that they are hiding UNDERNEATH the civilians and not behind them. [wikipedia.org]
That is also why the article talks about algorithms being used to "map the network, consisting of hundreds of kilometers under residential areas".
Since the implementation of Iron Dome, Hamas terrorists can no longer kill random civilians with rocket fire without investing huge amounts of money in their attacks.
Iron Dome doesn't bothe
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The last serious peace talks were a few years after that in 2006, and ended with a deal on the table when Olmert resigned in disgrace, and the Palestinian side held off signing until they knew his successor would honor the agreement. But during the periods when Netanyahu and Sharon were in power, there have not been any serious peace talks.
One rule for them... (Score:2)
'"Gospel" used AI to generate recommendations for troops in the research division of Military Intelligence, which used them to produce quality targets and then passed them on to the IAF to strike...'
In the spirit of Kant's categorical imperative ("do as you would be done by"), one has to ask if the Israeli government and people would be content for their enemies to choose targets within Israel using the same software.
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In the spirit of Kant's categorical imperative ("do as you would be done by"), one has to ask if the Israeli government and people would be content for their enemies to choose targets within Israel using the same software.
I wonder if you would say that the Americans had to ask the same question before A-bombing the Japanese, or a woman who is defending herself from a would-be rapist using a gun. The whole point of war is that both you and the other side are trying to terrible stuff to each other. And frankly, Israel is the only country in the world that actually sends a notice a few hours in advance before bombing a building, something that your country has likely never done while bombing others.
But yes, I know, it's one sta
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Rockets fired from Gaza actually have a better record of not killing Israeli civilians in this respect. Out of thosands of rockets fired, only a few dozen deaths have resulted, around 15% of which were military and 30% Palestinians killing themselves.
Given the results (Score:2)
Blind Commenters (Score:4, Insightful)
So many pro-Hamas folks here. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They love to start shit but when someone responds in kind they cry like 4 year olds.
I would suggest that you Hamas lovers go to Palestine and take up their fight so you can die like the rest of them.
Looks like the AI controlled rocket system worked as intended and shut down Hamas in less than 2 weeks.
Hopefully Hamas will realize they can't win against a super powered backed country and go back to peaceful lives. O wait.
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You're funny. Like Hitler doing a happy jig when France surrendered funny.
Raising "terrorism" smokescreen when someone criticizes a regime that has been invading and displacing people in a land they have zero right to be in, doing ethnic cleansing and genocide, murdering children, doing human experimentation, bombing refugee camps and medical clinics and charities and news outlets.
Israel has been doing evil for decades,and then raises smokescreen of "that's anti-semite" and "we're the victim" when critici
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The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
All Muslims believe in 'Death To America' and death to anyone not Muslim. Since Israel is enemies with the Muslims, it only makes sense to befriend them.
BTW...I am funny but this subject is not funny. And neither is your reference to Hitler. Wanna have a conversation, fine. Wanna call me a Nazi then fuck off.
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That's funny, we have over two million muslims here in USA not saying Death to America. Some I know have served in armed forces.
You are a zionnazi. Zionists do the same things as nazis. Oppression, ethnic cleansing. hemicals to kill minorities, human experimentation, invading land, making giant concentration camps, killing and maiming to steal.
The world is seeing you for what you really are. Righteous Jews agree with me and have been saying the same thing, for over 70 years now.
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Muslims follow a false prophet named Muhammad. ALL Muslims believe the same thing. Just because they are passive at the time doesn't mean they don't believe the same thing.
You are a misled fool if you think they will be peaceful when the opportunity rises.
Death to false religion and death to Muslims. Most of the Middle East needs to be nuked. You are free to join them. This is the opinion of a realist. I personally don't give 2 shits about Israel but since they have the balls to deal with Muslims then more
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Yes, zionists and zionist owned media will, and of course our USA government which is in the pocket of zionists.
Good righteous Jewish people, in the USA and some even in Israel, agree with what I'm saying about Israel's genocide and oppression. Israel is not Judaism, Zionism is not Judaism.
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Hamas's first strike against Israel came in the spring 1989
Netanyahu got elected in 1996. I do agree, however, that Netnyahu and Hamas are helping each other (yes, Netanyahu is literally sending Hamas money). Problem is, both our people and Palestinian people are stupid enough to vote for such leaders. I hope we'll manage to get rid of Netanyahu (read the news, that's what's happening at the moment), I hope Palestinians will manage to do the same. Admittedly I'm skeptic, both nations are just too stupid.
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In which parallel universe did they try that and why are you in this one instead of there?
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Yes, genocide is elimination of a people; and ethnic cleansing, removal and destruction of a people from an area. Of course, even in the present we saw Israel bomb refugee camps, medical clinics, charities, apartments and homes of innocents.
The whole world sees the proof you are trying to deny. Good decent Jews condemn what you are trying to deny:
https://www.middleeasteye.net/... [middleeasteye.net]
Why are you cherry picking a time in the present? Let's talk about decades of ethnic cleansing and genocide, chemical warfare on
Hamas (Score:3)
It doesn't really help that Hamas doesn't even bother to at least claim, even falsely, that they are aiming for military targets. Makes it look like they are after extermination and genocide. They've gotten consumed by so much hatred that they can't think of doing anything else. I guess that's what happens to any victim of abuse. I had a neighbor who used to treat his dog like shit, and of course, the dog became fierce and lashed out at people. It's a vicious cycle, hard to break out of. Israelis faced attempted genocide before, they aren't going to fuck around when they feel threatened. In many circumstances, abused becomes abuser --- not a guarantee but it's just more probable because humans choose to have little control over emotion-driven acting. It requires active suppression. Many (almost every?) humans has a limit or set of emotional states in which they would make immoral or unethical decisions -- some have a lower threshold than others.
Sensor evaluation (Score:2)
Finding tunnels has not much to do with classic artificial intelligence but with advanced sensor evaluation.
Satellites have been able to scan underground tunnel networks for around 20 years. There are at least two nations openly claiming to be able to scan deep underground, the USA and Germany. For example the commercial resouce scanning satellite "Erdräuber" was able to detect underground anomalies like Oil, hot springs, flowing water, metal and caverns up to a depth of 2000 meters in 1992. The milita
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If it was that easy, nobody would be building tunnels to hide things. These technologies work on huge underground structures, not small tunnels, and the results are very difficult to interpret. It's also easy to fool, since it depends on the conductivity of the ground. One can easily create tons of fake tunnels with plastic or chicken wire.
Stop promoting hate, OR ELSE (Score:2)
[This comment is aimed at Israel but really applies to any group that is oppressing another: Han Chinese / Uyghurs, Burmese / Rohingas, (White Americans / Blacks?). Ultimately it extends to smaller and smaller groups ...]
Have you heard of the $400 bet between Steven Pinker and Martin Ree? It states that between 2017 and 2020 there will be an act of bio-terror or bio-error that kills a million people. Why this is relevant today is because if it is determined (by the W.H.O.?) that Covid was released accide
Re:it was most and foremost (Score:4, Informative)
Danish and EU funded humanitarian aid again destroyed by the Israeli military [danchurchaid.org]
Israeli army destroys West Bank well restored by Polish charity [thenews.pl]
"Peaceful" as hell.
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Does Israel have some kind of hold over the US? I ask because these actions surely warrant a freeze of the billions in aid going to Israel, The Palestinians could put that money to far better use right now.
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Hitler slowed German progress into it, because he didn't want Germany using the "jewish" science of Einstein.
Rats. Hoisted by your own petard.
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Re: it was most and foremost (Score:3, Interesting)
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Why? The very first treaty the US signed was with state-sponsored pirates and slavers.
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Irrelevant Links (Score:5, Informative)
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The third link tells the story of demolition of an illegal construction. Go and try to drill a well in the centre of the Times Square in NYC.
More like the US declaring the Eiffel Tower illegal and demolishing it.
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How can a water source be an 'illegal construction' valid of being targeted in war?
Are you that dense? Go build a dam and see how long it lasts before you're asked to remove it and remediate the area. If the government asks you to take it down and it happens to be during a civil war marvel as your insignificant water source suddenly becomes a target.
I don't think your remarks are willfully ignorant as you accuse the parent. I think you just haven't put the slightest bit of thought into your post.
Re: it was most and foremost (Score:4, Insightful)
What should the Israel government have done? Kept in place, allowing their missiles, imprecise as they are, to keep flying until they ran out of missiles, then shrug it off and continue as if nothing had happened? Would you have asked your own government to act in that way if a neighboring country to yours were throwing missiles in your general direction? If not, what would you suggest as the best strategy while the missiles were flying?
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What should the Israel government have done?
Used all the money to legally buy some land somewhere else so they can recreate their mythical "promised land" theme park without stealing other peoples homes.
if a neighboring country to yours were throwing missiles in your general direction?
What would you do if someone marched in with an army and took all your possessions off you and then said that you should either thank them or go live in an neighbouring country?
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Used all the money to legally buy some land somewhere else so they can recreate their mythical "promised land" theme park without stealing other peoples homes.
There's a sharp difference between idealized dreamy scenarios and concrete reality with its mess of realpolitik and interested parties. In dreamland everything is easy and, as children would put it, "why can't we all just get along?!?" In the real world, saying such things marks one as not taking the real issues seriously.
What would you do if someone marched in with an army and took all your possessions off you and then said that you should either thank them or go live in an neighbouring country?
Me, personally? I'd be one of the first to move to the neighboring country. But I'm neurodivergent enough for my own personal look at things to not match that of the vast majority of peopl
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In the real world, saying such things marks one as not taking the real issues seriously.
Whereas saying you can take someone's house off them because some deity said so is supposed to be taken seriously?
But I'm neurodivergent
That's a polite way of putting it, I guess.
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It is a myth that it is a land promised to a tiny, tiny number of completely unimportant goat herders by the mythical creator of the entire universe. Hence 'mythical "promised land"'.
In fact, Israel marched out of Gaza in 2005.
I wasn't talking about just Gaza.
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Not provoke Palestinians in the first place?
You can't not offend people who are going out of their way to get offended. And Arabs in the region are *definitely* such sort of people; just look at all the shit show regarding the Temple Mount.
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Big areas of Jerusalem are occupied by Palestinians. It's unsafe for others to even travel there without armed guards.
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Re: it was most and foremost (Score:5, Informative)
Not provoke Palestinians in the first place?
It's important to make clear distinctions. When I talk about this subject I make a point do say "Israeli government", as distinct from "Israeli citizens", as distinct from "Jewish people" etc. So, when you say "Palestinians", who are your referring to? The government, the paramilitary organizations, the general population, the religious, or the secular?
And what exactly is the provocation, to whom, and what's the specific concrete alternative? Remember Israel is a democracy, so any decision by those in power is also linked with pleasing (or at least not angering) the majority of voters so as to continue in power, and if it goes badly in that department has the potential to give rise to someone who will do things better or worse, for whatever definitions of "better" and "worse".
As for Netanyahu, Likud etc., I don't think so. My own preference, for any country I ever got any political information on (Israel is one such), is for their centrists.
Put hey, I'm arguing with a Zionist who takes all his foreign policy from a 2,500 year old religious text based on a 3,500 year old oral tradition.
Do you mean me? I'm not Israeli, Jewish, and not a monotheist either. The Bible for me is myth. I argue from a perspective that mixes modern social psychology, political theory, and theory of war.
Love the Jews, hate the system.
Why would one hate democracy? The system itself is okay, and currently the best one in that region. What it needs is better parties, and better politicians.
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How about giving the stolen land and property back, ending the occupation and setting out a realistic two state solution as the basis of negotiations?
See if the rockets keep coming and who the Palestinians elect.
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Israel is a theocracy, driven by an extremist religious view called "Zionism" that uses ethnic cleansing, occupation and displacement, concentration and prison camp building, chemical warfare, human experimentation, discrimination against its own citizens of other religions.
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Gaza is a giant concentration camp.
Israel is a theocracy where other religions are persecuted. Only Jewish people can marry in state, other "citizens" have to leave to get married.
The world is seeing through your lies, you zion-nazi.
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And what exactly is the provocation, to whom, and what's the specific concrete alternative?
The catalysts for the latest uprising were the storming of Al Aqsa mosque on the first day of Ramadan, to cut the wires to their speakers so their call to prayer would not interrupt a speech at a Zionist gathering, and an ongoing court battle where Palestinians displaced in 1948 were given land in 1953, and now Jewish settlers are trying to claim it under discriminatory laws that let Jewish people claim land they have historical ties to. These and other provocations were against the Palestinian people of E
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actually do something positive towards a two state solution
You mean something other than in the decades following 1948 when this was rejected by the Arab parties involved?
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Why are you concerned about appeasing Hamas? The way to defeat them is to support their more moderate rivals so that the popularity of Hamas wanes and they become irrelevant to Palestinians. The status and treatment of Palestinians in occupied East Jerusalem, and even within the borders recognised as Israel by UN, is very much a concern for productive negotiations toward ending the conflict.
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Re: Predictable (Score:2, Insightful)
At least the Israeli government uses it to reduce civilian casualties. Were the technological levels reversed, the attacking side would have used AI to identify the most populated areas with the potential for the maximum number of casualties, and then proceeded with an extermination war with the goal of complete ethnic cleansing.
This is no IDLE speculation or taking sides. I do think many of Palestinians' grievances are real and should be handled better. But it's a fact that States, paramilitary organizatio
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At least the Israeli government uses it to reduce civilian casualties.
Is that what they told you? Did they provide evidence to support it?
Maybe they should use actual intelligence to find a way to deprecate Hamas without having to murder innocents along the way.
Did the AI tell them that bombing the HQ of journalists would help resolve the conflict quickly? Did it mention that the next step would be continued genocide?
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Is that what they told you? Did they provide evidence to support it?
They don't need to, the numbers the Palestinian authorities provide are proof of this.
In a situation of civil war the average death toll rate is in the range of 1% to 2% of the population per year, most of whom civilians. Gaza's population is 2.05 million, which would mean, by that metric, around 30k deaths per year, or about 82 deaths per day. The recent conflict lasted 16 days, and according the Palestinian own Ministry of Health, confirmed by the UN, it resulted in 254 deaths, or 16 deaths per day. This
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The most striking statistic I saw is that 72000 Gazans lost their homes, while about 130 (rough estimate) Gazan civilians were killed. That means that 99.8% of the housing units destroyed by Israel were unoccupied when bombed. Whereas you'd expect about 50% unoccupied, if people are home approximately half the hours of the day.
I don't know why it was so important for Israel to destroy these buildings, but it seems Israel did an extremely good job of making sure nobody was home when they were destroyed. An a
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I took away your shelter. You definitely won't die of exposure.
Fucking piece of shit genocide supporter.
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I don't know why it was so important for Israel to destroy these buildings
The article mentions a several km of underground tunnels destroyed. My hunch is the tunnels were below those buildings, so to reach them they had to hit through whatever was on the surface, and hence they only did that when they were almost certain the buildings themselves were unoccupied. But that's just a guess.
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"My hunch is the tunnels were below those buildings,"
72,000 homes? Doesn't make sense all those homes were above tunnels, it also isn't clear why you consider underground passage ways in an illegally occupied country a military target.
What could be other reasons for bombing so many residences?
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What could be other reasons for bombing so many residences?
Because Hamas was launching rockets into Israel from those sites.
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But surely it's also part of a misguided and confused attempt continuing 72 years of oppression while land is slowly taken square meter by square meter.
When was the last time Israel took land from Gaza? Do you know?
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"you're another ignorant poster"
I guess you misunderstood my comment. I should have avoided sarcasm and been clearer so I'll try to reformulate. If you reply I'd appreciate you keep to arguments on what I wrote and avoid using insults.
In 1947 Palestinians had a U.N. partition plan imposed on them, they were promised a state, but since then they've received oppression, and often beatings, torture, and death, while their properties and land taken away square meter by square meter daily for the past 72 years.
K
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Why did Israel destroy tens of thousands of homes?
It's almost like they are trying to create a refugee crisis so people leave.
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Israel regularly warns ahead of time where they are going to strike, precisely to minimize the number of human casualties. It's not uncontroversial. See for example: https://www.trtworld.com/middl... [trtworld.com]
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They don't need to, the numbers the Palestinian authorities provide are proof of this.
In a situation of civil war the average death toll rate is in the range of 1% to 2% of the population per year, most of whom civilians. Gaza's population is 2.05 million, which would mean, by that metric, around 30k deaths per year, or about 82 deaths per day. The recent conflict lasted 16 days, and according the Palestinian own Ministry of Health, confirmed by the UN, it resulted in 254 deaths, or 16 deaths per day. This means the Israeli military held back in their killing efforts by a factor of 5, that is, the conflict was five times less deathly than a typical war would be. Or, to put it another way, the Israeli military, by the MOH's own admission, avoided killing what would regularly have been circa 1,300 people, instead of that killed only 254 people, and hence went out of its way to spare over 1,000 lives that otherwise would have been lost.
There's no need of propaganda for this. Knowing war theory and the raw numbers is enough to put things in the proper perspective.
This right here is some royally fucked up logic. The argument is too generalized and lacks any useful level of detail to draw any relevant conclusion of any kind.
The next time there is any skirmish somewhere between nations one can note the populations of countries involved and invoke this same ridiculous arithmetic to complement parties to conflict for their restraint regardless of the actions either party had actually taken.
If a state like Pakistan let off a tactical nuke in an Indian city that ended up
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Systematically exterminating a people, at whatever speed, is genocide. Doing it slower doesn't make it better.
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"The Palestinian population has increased at a rate of about 3% per year for at least the last 30 years,"
Which goes to show that whatever you call what the Israeli state and it's military are doing it isn't about as you said a civil war.
Palestinians were promised a state in 1948. They've received death, torture, beatings and oppression, and had land taken away square meter by square meter daily for the past 72 years.
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This is no IDLE speculation or taking sides. I do think many of Palestinians' grievances are real and should be handled better. But it's a fact that States, paramilitary organizations, and secular and religious leaders in the region, both in Palestine as well as in neighboring countries, all have expressed in unambiguous terms, multiple times, over decades, that they want not merely the Israel state defeated and reduced in size, but the Jewish people outright extinct, so I'm taking their word at face value, trusting they fully mean it, and extrapolating from there in a straight line.
This is precisely why we should bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran because when they say marg bar amrika by golly they really really really mean it. This kind of bullshit is what power does to people. It rots their brains and enables them to justify literally anything.
Were the technological levels reversed, the attacking side would have used AI to identify the most populated areas with the potential for the maximum number of casualties, and then proceeded with an extermination war with the goal of complete ethnic cleansing.
The population distribution of Israel is public information. You don't need AI you just need to look at a map.
Re: Predictable (Score:2)
You're falling into an obvious trap. You can't just hypothetically flip technological and military capabilities and draw a straight line from where they are today, that doesn't work.
For one thing, if you flipped the military capabilities like you suggest, you would absolutely expect Israeli guerrillas to fight low and dirty against their occupiers. They would get arms and funding under the table from some Iran analogs. Having no achievable military objectives they'd quickly be labeled terrorists. And th
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At least the Israeli government uses it to reduce civilian casualties.
That sounds rather far-fetched.
Re: Predictable (Score:5, Informative)
Ethnic Cleansing was always the plan.
Israel's population is composed of 74% Jewish people and 26% non-Jewish people, the majority of whom, 20% of the population, are of Arab descent. The Israel State has existed for 73 years. If by this point its population isn't of 100% Jewish people, then either a) they're utterly incompetent at implementing their goals, or b) ethnic cleansing wasn't and isn't the goal. The Israeli government doesn't seem to be incompetent, quite the opposite, that rules out alternative "a". Therefore, I conclude alternative "b" is the most likely by a very large margin.
Re: Predictable (Score:4, Insightful)
Israel's population is composed of 74% Jewish people and 26% non-Jewish people, the majority of whom, 20% of the population, are of Arab descent.
This is only if you exclude the West Bank, where all the ethnic cleansing is taking place.
No ethnic cleansing (Score:2, Insightful)
Where did you get that nonsense.
The Arabs that are Israeli citizens do OK, and in polls reckon that that Israel is one of the best places to live.
The Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza do very badly. The Israelis would love them to leave, be cleansed. But no other country will take them. So no cleansing.
There was a time, 2000, camp David II after Oslo, that the Palestinians could have got a pretty decent deal. But Arafat could not agree to anything that did not include the complete destruction of Is
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"then either a) they're utterly incompetent at implementing their goals, or b) ethnic cleansing wasn't and isn't the goal. The Israeli government doesn't seem to be incompetent, quite the opposite, that rules out alternative "a". Therefore, I conclude alternative "b" is the most likely by a very large margin."
But then what is, as you say, this very competent government's goal?
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"To stop Iranian backed terrorist organizations wiping them off the face of the earth which is a formally stated goal of each of Iran, Hamas, and Hezbollah perhaps?"
Two things, how would 72 years of death, torture, beatings and oppression of Palestinians and slowly taking there land stop Iran of doing anything?
There's also no lack of Israeli figures and representatives who have stated similar goals over the years, and it also doesn't justify anything.
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Did the article tell you that?? Perhaps it's even true.
I replied to another poster who not-argued in a similar way. Here's their post [slashdot.org], with my reply below it.
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Most Muslims wouldn't give a shit about Jews one way or another if it weren't for the Zionist problem - which more and more Jews are beginning to realize is a problem.
That isn't accurate. Sure, most Muslims wouldn't, but the problem isn't most Muslims, it's the very small but very vocal and violently prone minority (way less than 1% of the total) who definitely give since way before the Israel state was established. Case in point, check the (in)famous record of the conversation between the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Hitler in 1941 [timesofisrael.com], which is well worth knowing. Zionism at most exacerbates this, but it doesn't cause it. The actual cause comes from way earlier [wikipedia.org], even if th
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"Zionism at most exacerbates this, but it doesn't cause it."
Neither are the anti-Jews more to blame, they work on the same kinds of motivations as the anti-Muslims. And biblical passages aren't arguments, if they were they'd just backup what I said.
It's always the person in the greatest position of authority that has the greatest power to reduce conflict and increase cooperation.
Re: Predictable (Score:2)
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Uighurs are in work "reeducation" camps. Not the same, perhaps they could try that out... it would at least be something new. The US would back it, like they do just about everything as they always shield them in the U.N. from the whole planet taking action... multiple times.
The treatment is more like how the Native Americans were treated but in modern times but without an abundance of land. Hell, I'd not be surprised to hear they were given supplies (including blankets) after spraying them with COVID-19..
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Israel's goal is to completely annex Palestine.
In doing that, they would have to give Palestinians voting rights, and with around 40% of the population, they would be a substantial power within the government. Israel's real goal seems to be to maintain the status quo - neither a single state, nor a two state solution.
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Oh they don't intend for the Palestinians to keep living there. They are very keen for Egypt to open the border to "refugees".
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that can't meaningfully fight back
Yes, the wall should be torn down so that the bus bombings could continue. /s
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Israel should give them back their territory and homes.
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I'm guessing you wouldn't see that as justification for an American tribe taking your home.
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It was not the first one though. The first one was the use of completely autonomous loitering munitions made out of drones with custom firmware in Libya 5-6 months ago. Anything that looks like a vehicle - target and kill. And who cares about who is inside.
Can't be arsed to look for the report - you can google it.
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Indeed. Of course, _somebody_ would be willing to do this, no matter how immoral.
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There is no way for the UN to make peace. The UN is one of the instigators. They are not a neutral party.
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Neanderthal here. All you h. sapiens get your asses back to Africa and give us our land back.
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The destruction of Tel Aviv. It only takes one bomb.
Will never happen. Why? Because the destruction of Tehran only takes one bomb. See how that works? Its why nuclear weapons are so effective. They work even if you don't use them. Also, it is a poorly kept secret that Israel has nuclear weapons. They don't need to ask the US for them.