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Google The Courts

Google Says Staff Have No Right To Protest Its Choice of Clients (bloomberg.com) 358

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Bloomberg: Google employees have no legal right to protest the company's choice of clients, the internet giant told a judge weighing the U.S. government's allegations that its firings of activists violated the National Labor Relations Act. "Even if Google had, for the sake of argument, terminated the employees for their protest activities -- for protesting their choice of customers -- this would not violate the Act," Google's attorney Al Latham said in his opening statement Tuesday at a labor board trial. National Labor Relations Board prosecutors have accused the Alphabet Inc. unit of violating federal law by illegally firing five employees for their activism. Three of those workers' claims had originally been dismissed under President Donald Trump, because agency prosecutors concluded that their opposition to the company collaborating with immigration enforcement wasn't legally protected, according to their lawyer. But that decision was reversed after President Joe Biden fired and replaced the labor board's general counsel.

Google has been roiled over the past four years by a wave of activism by employees challenging management over issues including treatment of sub-contracted staff, handling of sexual harassment, and a contract with the U.S. Customs and Border Protection agency, which some of the fired workers accessed internal information about and circulated a petition against. Google has denied wrongdoing, saying in a Monday statement that it encourages "open discussion and debate" but terminated staff in response to violations of its data security policies. "Google terminated these employees not because of their protest as such, but because in the pursuit of their protest, they accessed highly confidential information that they had no right to access," its attorney told the judge Tuesday.

Federal labor law prohibits retaliating against employees for collective action related to their working conditions, but the exact scope of that protection has been debated for decades. Biden's appointees have signaled they interpret the scope of what that covers much more broadly than their Trump-era predecessors. Latham said he isn't aware of any case in the labor board's eight decades of existence in which it has held "an employer's choice of customer" to be an issue workers have a right to protest. "What we have here is a protest that does not seek to improve employees' terms and conditions of employment," but rather "a purely political protest that sought to use Google's government contracts, or potential government contracts, as leverage," he said.

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Google Says Staff Have No Right To Protest Its Choice of Clients

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  • I have to agree. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by S_Stout ( 2725099 ) on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @10:36PM (#61727107)
    If the employees don't approve of the clients, they can leave. Google is not holding them hostage. Protests should be limited to events that are illegal, such as employee discrimination or harassment.
    • I don't agree. Say your company worked for Epstein (before he didn't kill himself), I think it's valid to protest that. Working for the Taliban?

      Yes, you can quit and lose benefits, medical etc. That's not exactly a good option. Yes, there should be limits on anything but employees don't protest reasonable things. They protest outlier events like that.

      Also this is Google. "Don't be evil" is a joke for most of us, but for the guys inside... They actually believe that nonsense. I think these are the people who

      • by Luckyo ( 1726890 ) on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @11:10PM (#61727173)

        Irrelevant. You are there to work for the company to promote its goals. If the company is doing something that is illegal, you have legal avenues to protest it. If the company is doing something legal and you just don't like it, you should become a company owner and raise the issue among other stakeholders.

        The basic concept of "employee should be loyal to the employer" is so fundamental to the concept of employing people, that even socialists and communists demand it when they function as employers.

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          Unfortunately, loyalty cuts both ways. Companies are only loyal to the money their employees bring them; it's been shown over and over again that corporations in the US have a legal obligation to screw over their employees, customers and suppliers when it is legal to do so or when they can get away with it.

          An employee's loyalty should go so far as their notice of termination. If the company is not in the habit of giving two week notice before terminating employees, it has no right to expect a two week no
        • by lsllll ( 830002 )
          Irrelevant. What you do on your own time without using company resources is your own fucking business, even if it's against the company's interest, otherwise, how would you defend union workers protesting on the public lawn in front of the company? The company just has to deal with your protest, and if they fire you for something you did that wasn't illegal and it was on your own time and dime, then they deserve what's coming to them.
          • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

            by Anonymous Coward

            Irrelevant. What you do on your own time without using company resources is your own fucking business, even if it's against the company's interest, otherwise, how would you defend union workers protesting on the public lawn in front of the company?

            This is not exactly true. You are not completely free to work against your employer on your own time and expect continued employment. There are limits such as if your efforts damage the reputation of the company or interferes with their legitimate business. They can dismiss you. You may not like this or it may violate some sensibility you have but that is typically the way things work.

            Union protests have limitations as well. Picketing when not on strike may be considered an illegal wildcat strike and

            • by lsllll ( 830002 )
              I assume you have some case law backing this up?
              • by mysidia ( 191772 ) on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @03:01AM (#61727477)

                I assume you have some case law backing this up?

                The US has At-Will Employment; it's the exception to the rule that a case of termination could even be challenged in court and get anywhere. Your boss can terminate you for almost any reason they fucking want to, Unless you got them to sign an employment contract stating otherwise, including anything they find out about you that happened off the clock.

                They absolutely can; they can even terminate for outside activity that is completely innocuous - it don't even have to be against the company. If your boss goes to a restaurant when your not working and sees you wearing the wrong color of socks, they can fire you the next day for "poor wardrobe taste", and they'll be 100% legally in the right. Employers can fire anyone they want for almost any reason or no reason whatsoever.

                There are only a few narrowly-taylored exceptions.

                1. The employer cannot discriminate against you based on being in one of a few legally protected minority groups.
                2. An employer cannot allow illegal conduct or harassment based or a workplace-environment hostile to a protected class,
                3. NLRA Section 7 rights - Self-organization to form/join/assist labor unions, and collective bargaining/mutual aid or protection for employees.
                4. Employers are restricted in ability to retaliate over employees suing/reporting illegal conduct by the employer.
          • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

            The obvious next question is "what's coming to them in that case"?

            Because in this case, the answer appears to be "nothing". The lawsuit appears meritless and brought in for political reasons with change of administration, a fairly common feature of US political system where new administrations upon coming in does certain things to reward certain interest groups.

            This feature is utterly agnostic of "what administration is coming in" and is a universal in US political system. It's in fact one of the more visib

          • by dnaumov ( 453672 )

            Irrelevant. What you do on your own time without using company resources is your own fucking business, even if it's against the company's interest

            Current legislation of most western countries completely disagrees with your ideas.

        • The basic concept of "employee should be loyal to the employer" is so fundamental to the concept of employing people

          Never be loyal to a company, because the company will never be loyal to you.

          • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

            Fun part: most Western nations will legally require you to be loyal to your company.

            Unless by "loyalty", you mean "never look for another employer". I don't, and neither does the law.

        • The basic concept of "employee should be loyal to the employer" is so fundamental to the concept of employing people, that even socialists and communists demand it when they function as employers.

          I don't think you are right.

          Employees delivers their time and knowledge in exchange for money. They do not sell their soul.

          Speaking as an employer.

          • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

            I'm confused how you went from "loyalty" to "selling soul".

            Could you fill in the gap between the two?

        • You made a great many assertions in your post. Which of them are backed by law, which are your opinion about how things inevitably work in practice, and which ones are your opinion about how they should work?

          • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

            100% of them are backed by law. Employee loyalty has been codified in Common Law and pretty much every system that came from it for at least three hundred years. Likely longer. They form the basis for having employee-employer relationship that extend beyond one sided affairs that they were before such thing was codified.

            To my knowledge, this exists primarily in State law (rather than Federal law) in US, where all 50 states mandate duty of loyalty from employee to their employer. Typical definition is among

        • Irrelevant. You are there to work for the company to promote its goals. If the company is doing something that is illegal, you have legal avenues to protest it. If the company is doing something legal and you just don't like it, you should become a company owner and raise the issue among other stakeholders.

          Or, being inside a company you can influence the decisions and ways that companies are run. Management through dictatorship is a mark of a shitty company, and wholly shit do you sound like you would make one arsehole of a manager.

      • by raymorris ( 2726007 ) on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @12:02AM (#61727241) Journal

        > I think it's valid to protest that.

        Sure, it could be "valid" for me to protest the company changing the color of their logo. I might have a valid opinion about that.
        That's not the question.

        The question is - is it *illegal* for the company to fire me if I keep trying to get in the way of what the company is doing? Of perhaps I start making YouTube videos saying that the color they choose was also used by Nazis, and if I refuse to update the web site with the new color?

        The answer is - no, it's NOT illegal for the company to fire someone who is trying to sabotage the company's efforts.

        It's illegal to fire someone bases on race. It's illegal to fire them because they won't date you. It's illegal to fire them because they talked to co-workers about the time-off policies that you both work under. It is NOT illegal to fire someone who is trying to sabotage a $400 million contract with the government.

        • by digiti ( 200497 )

          That's a fair point. I'm not a lawyer. I think there's a nuance here similar to the one we have for speech (yelling fire in a crowded theater). I think this specific protest for this specific company isn't grounds for dismissal.

          If an Oracle employee made that protest then, well... You know where you signed up to work...

          • Yeah exactly. There's a difference between whether I agree with something vs that something being illegal.

            You mentioned free speech. I strongly disagree with Aighearach thinking that black people are too stupid to learn to read, and unqualified to make their own decisions. Yet, I'm very much aware that it's legal for him to say that. I disagree with it. That doesn't make it illegal.

            Though to be fair, if he ever fires any person of color, his comments will make it *look* like the firing was probably illegall

      • Sorry, but last time I checked "Activist" wasn't a protected class. Imagine if people you disagreed with protested like this any time they wanted.

      • by mysidia ( 191772 )

        I don't agree. Say your company worked for Epstein (before he didn't kill himself), I think it's valid to protest that. Working for the Taliban?

        Valid and certainly reasonable to protest, But Not your legal right to be protected from being fired when doing so as an employee.

        The NLRA's Section 7 protected rights are a special thing to protect employees engaged solely for the purpose of collective bargaining or other mutual aid or protection for employees. It includes activities like strikes and walkouts

      • by ruddk ( 5153113 )

        Well they did officially delete "'Don't be evil" a long time ago as their motto.

      • Well you can make a complaint or protest, but even if it was Epstein or Taliban, you should still just do your job as an employee or just quit. If you don't like the clients your boss is serving you're with the wrong company and just look for another job or start your own company where you have all the right to decide whom to serve. And if your company is doing something illegal and you don't agree, then you should go to the authorities, but never just leak the information to media as that might make you li
      • If the secretary of Epstein's lawyer refused to work, should he be able to fire her for cause?

      • Google are only following a long tradition among US corporations of profiting from crimes against humanity, e.g. Chase National Bank, Cocacola, Associated Press, General Motors, et al., all willingly rolled up their sleeves in the 1930s to help Germany with its religious minority 'problem'. This time it's a racial minority & immigration 'problem'.
      • You don't agree and you are wrong.

        Yes, you can quit and lose benefits, medical etc. That's not exactly a good option.

        So what if it isn't a good option for you? The world doesn't revolve around you.You are hired to do a job. If you don't want to do the job or you don't want to work for a company that does business with someone you disapprove of then you quit the job. If you protest, you can and should be fired. And, when you are fired, you don't necessarily get the benefits one gets when one quits.

      • So you are suggesting that employees at a company should be free to piss off said company's customers without repercussions? Not because the customer is doing something illegal, just something the employees don't like. I like where this is going.
      • So, because there would be a cost for doing what an employee thinks is the moral thing to do, the employer should adopt the employee's preference and bear a different cost? That doesn't make very much sense to me. It's incredibly childish and irresponsible, and shows they aren't actually acting on a moral belief, just a political preference.

        There are consequences to taking a moral stand. If you aren't willing to bear them in order to show the world that you are serious, don't even bother. If these em

    • by mike.mondy ( 524326 ) on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @10:54PM (#61727137)

      If the employees don't approve of the clients, they can leave. Google is not holding them hostage.

      Protests should be limited to events that are illegal, such as employee discrimination or harassment.

      Wow! Protests should only be about criminal actions? No protests for *anything* else? Should the protestors wait until after a conviction? Imagine what today's world would be if there had never been any protests.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

        You have the right to protest just as much as google has a right to terminate you for such a protest.

        That's literally the argument being made.

        • It was less about the protesting and more about accessing company data they did not have permissions to access and then leaking it. Every employee at nearly every company signs NDAs and other documents which clearly spell out certain actions that they can be terminated for. There are legal protections for legitimate whistle blowing of illegal activities. This was not whistle blowing. This was employees not happy with certain government contracts trying to make their employer look bad to political activi

        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Legally that is the case but it's probably not a great way to run a company if you want to retain the best staff. Good people can and will switch jobs.

      • Wow! Protests should only be about criminal actions?

        The question isn't about if protests should exist, it's about what protests should be afforded legal protection.

    • Would it be okay for employees to protest if a company cuts off the free bagels? It's not illegal for the company to do it. It's not illegal for employees to protest it. Should it be legal for the company to fire anyone who complains about the no-more-free-bagels policy? Should employees be required to leave the company if they don't agree with the no-more-free-bagels policy? Is there no room for disagreement between a company and its employees about matters which aren't coded into law?
      • When they make public protests that discourage clients, most employee contracts are pretty clear about political activity that harms the employer.

        This was precisely what James Damore did, internally at Google, when he published his concerns about Google's "ideological echo chamber" and his concerns that gender diversity efforts were ignoring biological distinctions among Google employees. He was quickly fired, and filed a discrimination lawsuit against Google rooted in the laws that protect people from term

    • Google IS holding them hostage!
      Sleeping under a bridge with no health insurance is not an option! [youtube.com]
      You're deliberately using their rhetoric and ancient false arguments, to keep up a status quo, that you're suffering under. Stockholm Syndrome much?

    • IBM during WW2 would absolutely love you. So would Bayer. Such a good worker. Just obey, keep your head down.
    • by mysidia ( 191772 )

      If the employees don't approve of the clients, they can leave. Google is not holding them hostage. Protests should be limited to events that are illegal

      Yes and No. Protesting against your employer and keeping the job is not a right . The protection provided by the NLRA (Section 7) is for concerted activity related to collective bargaining or other mutual aid or protection of employees.
      I don't think people can just claim after the fact that an activity was related to such bar

    • If the employees don't approve of the clients, they can leave. Google is not holding them hostage.

      Protests should be limited to events that are illegal, such as employee discrimination or harassment.

      That is completely wrong though. You don't protest illegal activities - that is very explicitly why we have the law, police, and the courts. Illegal activities such as discrimination and harassment should be prosecuted, like the on-going Activision Blizzard case. You protest against things that are legally acceptable but morally inconsistent / wrong. You can stage a protest against a company's environmental impact, privacy violation, assisting the Chinese government control and oppress its citizens and so o

  • Google really doesn't like people this guy [buzzfeednews.com].
  • by blarkon ( 1712194 ) on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @10:48PM (#61727125)
    Who wants their business's Google Docs account terminated for using the wrong pronouns? The response to the Damore affair signaled that Google had adopted left wing campus politics as an management paradigm. It's pretty hard to return to a politics free workplace when you hire a ton of people whose political identity is more important to them than keeping customers happy or shipping good code.
  • You can protest, but if you do it on company time, they have every right to fire you.

    • by lsllll ( 830002 )
      Absolutely, if you do it on company time. If you do it on your own time and do not use any company resources, then the company better brace with good reasons outside of your protest for firing you.
  • Yeah, just like IBM (Score:4, Interesting)

    by bobstreo ( 1320787 ) on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @11:11PM (#61727175)

    Nothing bad at all about supporting Germany with Hollerith Cards and some Generic Genocide.

    Not that Google would do anything "Evil". Nope, not a chance.

    • If you have moral issues with your employer’s business, you are free to quit, free to try and convince them to cease their questionable activities, free to protest them.. but you cannot expect to draw a salary from them at the same time. What does your conscience say about taking money from a company committing evil?
  • by BardBollocks ( 1231500 ) on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @11:27PM (#61727189)

    but then again, anyone who has read When Google met Wikileaks knows what's going on.

  • I'm sorry, Google, but people stood up, and the head of the royalty of France came off.
    The same will happen to corporate dictatorships like you.

    Because if corporations still hold absolute power over the vast majority of our lives, then we're not yet really living in a democracy.
    Yet.

    • So, a minority of very vocal employees demanding that the corporation they work for stop accepting business from certain legitimate entities is "Democracy"? A fringe minority demanding that everyone and everything comply with their personal political views or else is "Democracy"? That is actually a small group expecting to dictate their beliefs on the majority.

      You need to better understand what Democracy actually is. That it only works when people engage each other and debate ideas. That it does not wor

    • by Entrope ( 68843 )

      Are you claiming that the Reign of Terror was a general improvement over the French monarchy? Or only that it was more democratic?

      Companies do not hold absolute power over any part of people's lives. They can tell employees what to do during work hours, and can require them not to misuse information or equipment entrusted to them, but that is because that's how employment works, and those are all limited by the government's laws and regulations.

  • by MysteriousPreacher ( 702266 ) on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @01:28AM (#61727355) Journal

    Google, in common with other Californian tech companies, actively encourages identity politics and a college activist mentality. It should not come as a surprise when the mob they employed direct their activism against Google's business interests. They're also going to see long term difficulties in hiring talent due both to 'diversity' requirements and people not wanting to risk their careers - quickly ended if one of Google's activists should issue a denouncement.

    • by sd4f ( 1891894 )
      I suspect that google have probably identified this as a problem, and the progressive environment they cultivated and established over 20 years ago, is probably being seen as a problem, and now they're becoming a conservative corporation, in a business sense. I'm basing my opinion on the news that google is fairly resistant to working from home, threatening to reduce salaries for those who want it. On a precursory look, it appears to me that google has identified a workforce that they don't really want, so
  • by ytene ( 4376651 ) on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @01:41AM (#61727389)
    ”Google terminated these employees not because of their activism as such, but because in the act of their protest, they accessed highly confidential information that they had no right to access.”

    I appreciate that what follows is borderline conspiracy theory, so please take with a grain of salt, but it’s worth pointing out just how dangerous it can be for an employee to challenge an all-powerful employer as smart as Google.

    This isn’t a direct comparison, but readers might be interested in taking a look, for example, at the so-called McLibel Case [slashdot.org] in the UK. I’m giving that specific case as an example, because one of the elements of the prosecution against Steel and Morris, the two environmental activists at the heart of the case, concerned a meeting in which the only two participants who were not undercover agents for either the police or McDonalds were the two defendants. I’m citing that specific meeting in this specific case because at that meeting, the prosecution alleged that plans of direct action against McDonalds were made.

    The defendants didn’t deny this, but pointed out that the proposals for direct action came not from them but from the under-cover agents working on behalf of McDonalds themselves. In other words, the whole thing was entrapment from start to finish.

    Google’s lawyers told the court that in this case the activists were not dismissed for their protests over Google’s choice of customer, but over their access to highly confidential information.

    How convenient.

    What about everything the lawyer doesn’t say with that claim? Was this super-secret information adequately protected? Did they “hack” to get it? (In which case, why not refer them to the authorities and have them prosecuted under the Computer Misuse statute?)? How did they learn of the information in the first place? How was their intrusion detected? By whom? When? What actions did they take leading up to their access of this specific information - and if there was any suspicious or inappropriate action, were they previously cautioned?

    The point I’m trying to make here is that an employer as powerful as Google - any employer as powerful as Google, is always going to be able to find something that they can use as grounds for dismissal. As others in this thread have pointed out, ask James Damore.

    The impression this gives is that Google are being, shall we say, “Economical with the Truth” and disclosing only that information that they believe will convict the defendants and not any information which would show the Court that they may have acted to entrap them.

    Of course I have zero knowledge of the specifics and have never worked for Google.

    But from cases like the McLibel incident and from personal experience with other large employers, I’d say that big companies have learned how to dismiss those they deem to be “troublesome” staff using techniques that aren’t always squeaky clean.

    Worth watching for the discovery on this one, methinks.
    • They should have been fired for their protest AND accessing confidential data. Protesting the company is generally considered insubordination and implies that the employ is a danger to the company. Companies have a right to protect themselves and their customers from bad employees.

      The fact you were modded up only shows way to many people think they control their employers and their employers shouldn't be allowed to fire people for insubordination.

      The fact of the matter is that no company and no one owe
  • In this instance, I think Google is saying the correct message. Activist employees, unfortunately are trying to have it both ways, and are trying to be the tail that wags the dog, so to speak.

    The only honourable way to conduct oneself in a political dispute between your employer is to resign. That's something activist employees will rarely do.

  • Joining a one department does not automatically grant you a right to influence what other department does, unless they're doing something illegal.

    If you want to be part of that decision making, apply for a transfer. You're either working at the wrong department, or the wrong company.

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