Michelin's Airless Passenger Car Tires Get Their First Public Outing (newatlas.com) 159
New Atlas reports the latest development with Michelin's airless tire technology, which has been in the works for almost two decades. An anonymous Slashdot reader shares an excerpt from the report: The advantages are pretty clear: firstly, you can never be brought to a stop by a puncture or blowout -- Michelin says about 200 million tires every year hit scrapyards early thanks to these. Secondly, you don't have to look after your tire pressures; that doesn't just save you time, it also eliminates all early wear caused by underinflation. Their internal spokes are hugely tunable to meet desired performance characteristics. You can individually tune their stiffness under acceleration, braking, cornering and bump handling forces. The bump handling characteristics can even be tuned to eliminate the need for separate suspension in some types of vehicles. You can poke holes right through the tread to let water escape, potentially creating much better resistance to aquaplaning. They take less raw material and less energy to make, making them better for the environment, and Michelin has estimated they'll last up to three times as long as a regular ol' hoop.
They have obviously not been easy to commercialize, though; 16 years and counting is a long and difficult birth for a product people are clearly interested in. The Tweel, which replaces the entire wheel assembly, has been available for some time for various off-road vehicles, but it's still yet to make it to the road. Michelin has teamed up with GM to design and start selling an airless tire for street use on passenger cars. Called Uptis, this product is a full-wheel solution requiring specialized rims. Michelin says it will withstand much greater impacts than a regular tire and wheel, and will have a "dramatically" longer lifespan, while adding no extra rolling resistance, not feeling any different to the driver and adding only around seven percent to the weight of the wheel -- less than existing run-flat tires do. GM will begin offering Uptis as an option on certain models "as early as 2024," and the partnership is working with US state governments on regulatory approvals for street use, as well as with the federal government.
At IAA Munich recently, the Uptis airless tire got its first public outing, in which "certain lucky members of the public" had a chance to ride in a Mini Electric kitted out with a set. By all reports, the experience was about as exciting as driving on a regular set of tires -- i.e. not very interesting at all. They felt no different. But that's kind of the point here, Michelin is hoping to bring in a new and improved technology with zero change in the user experience. Hence this awkward interview with "Automotive lifestyle YouTuber Mr JWW" (James Walker).
They have obviously not been easy to commercialize, though; 16 years and counting is a long and difficult birth for a product people are clearly interested in. The Tweel, which replaces the entire wheel assembly, has been available for some time for various off-road vehicles, but it's still yet to make it to the road. Michelin has teamed up with GM to design and start selling an airless tire for street use on passenger cars. Called Uptis, this product is a full-wheel solution requiring specialized rims. Michelin says it will withstand much greater impacts than a regular tire and wheel, and will have a "dramatically" longer lifespan, while adding no extra rolling resistance, not feeling any different to the driver and adding only around seven percent to the weight of the wheel -- less than existing run-flat tires do. GM will begin offering Uptis as an option on certain models "as early as 2024," and the partnership is working with US state governments on regulatory approvals for street use, as well as with the federal government.
At IAA Munich recently, the Uptis airless tire got its first public outing, in which "certain lucky members of the public" had a chance to ride in a Mini Electric kitted out with a set. By all reports, the experience was about as exciting as driving on a regular set of tires -- i.e. not very interesting at all. They felt no different. But that's kind of the point here, Michelin is hoping to bring in a new and improved technology with zero change in the user experience. Hence this awkward interview with "Automotive lifestyle YouTuber Mr JWW" (James Walker).
How does it work when mud or snow get inside (Score:3, Insightful)
Looks neat, but how will it work if mud or snow/ice get inside of the tire?
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self driving cars are for sunny areas only you fool
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Similar to how in cold climates you just drive your pneumatic tires until they warm up to the point they no longer feel like square tires you would just drive them until they clean themselves out. 8^)
It could be interesting to be next to a car with one of these tires when the ice finally does clear though. 8^0
P.S. I assume that these tires probably need the same warming period before they regain full flexibility.
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Looks neat, but how will it work if mud or snow/ice get inside of the tire?
The eventual real production model will likely have a sidewall to protect against ice or pebbles.
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The eventual real production model will likely have a sidewall to protect against ice or pebbles.
You can plainly see in the photo in TFA that the prototypes already have sidewalls.
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You can plainly see in the photo in TFA that the prototypes already have sidewalls.
No they don't. Are we looking at the same picture, the one of the white Mini?
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No they don't. Are we looking at the same picture, the one of the white Mini?
Almost. I was looking at the low-res version. Mea culpa .
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The eventual real production model will likely have a sidewall to protect against ice or pebbles.
But the hipsters would not be able to show they have airless tyres. Hipsters like everything that has a "less" or "free" suffix, like "meat-free food " and "odourless paint" - because everything is bad in some way.
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- because everything is bad in some way.
Tagline for the comments section of Slashdot...
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If they got absolutely packed with dirt or rocks, I imagine it would be an issue, but I don't think snow or mud would be much of a problem between the spokes.
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Balance is only really important when travelling at speed. If you're slogging through mud, it's not going to be at highway speed. At higher speeds, mud will be flung right out of the wheel. If it manages to set in there, then it will be a problem though. As you point out, not really different from current tires/wheels.
If they are developing more advanced wheels though, another advanced feature that would be nice is if they were self-balancing.
The way they work on military UTVs (Score:2)
The contents crumble and disperse.
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That stuff is NOT a problem. The problem is rocks or other large, uncompressible debris. That can break spokes. A percentage of broken spokes is allowable but if they're all in the same place, or all in a line or whatever, it's going to affect driveability. This is a basically unsolvable problem which is nonetheless not going to be a big problem for road-going vehicles, or even on dirt roads in general, only for actual off-roading where rubber tires are going to continue to reign for the foreseeable future.
What if you get stuck in sand? (Score:3, Insightful)
A regular tire can be deflated to about 2 lbs which gives you a much greater contact patch to get out of sand.
Re:What if you get stuck in sand? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What if you get stuck in sand? (Score:4, Insightful)
That’s autists for you.
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Why are you driving in the sand with passenger car tires in the first place?
Re:What if you get stuck in sand? (Score:5, Funny)
You go to the beach with the tires you have, not the tires you might want or wish to have at a later time.
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Then maybe just don't drive out onto the beach unless you have the proper tires. Are beaches really that wide (far from the water) that you can't park on solid ground and walk to the water?
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Fat Americans can't walk that far.
Re:What if you get stuck in sand? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, having been in search & rescue for 15 years, you wouldn't believe the places people can get to in the back country with old cars and bald tires. We joke that we want to replace the big knobby tires on the jeeps with bald tires.
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Why are you driving in the sand with passenger car tires in the first place?
Don't get out to Utah much do you?
Oodles of roads that are fine for passenger cars except for patches of bad sand you can get hung up in.
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Then buy appropriate tires in the first place as I would.
Tweels do fine on UTVs like Polaris and fitting autos with appropriate treads for dirt was done from the beginning when nearly all roads were dirt.
What number of auto drivers would know to air down in the first place AND drive unsuitable tires on unsuitable vehicles?
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Military Tweels are proven (Score:3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
If no joy use another extrication method but the people who know to air down aren't the average driver and will tend to be suitably equipped as I am.
Truck mech and sometime off-roader of many years here. If you're dumb enough to get stuck be smart enough to recover or stay out of the dunes in the first place.
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Correct. There's only one kind of tire on the market that is common to all cars, and all cars need to be capable of driving on roads, ice, sand, mud and racetracks. It's not possible we can accept a product that can't do everything. It's UNWORKABLE. /mockingsarcasm.
Re:What if you get stuck in sand? (Score:5, Informative)
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Tell us you know fuck-all about cars without telling us you know fuck-all about cars
Should be very useful (Score:5, Interesting)
I might see if these are around the next time I need tires, I used to use run-flats and I liked them a lot for winter use. A while ago I ran over a beer bottle someone had left along the curb where I parked, it got covered by snow and when I tried to drive off it popped the tire meaning I had to put on a spare in a driving snowstorm.
Run-flats meant I could probably make it somewhere safe to change a tire, the same would be even more true for this new tire - and as the summary notes it's a lot lighter than run-flats, the only downside of them apart from the expense.
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They do say it might appear "as early as 2024". Given these have already been in development for so long, you might end up first using these sorts of tires on your next fusion-powered car.
I'm interested (Score:5, Interesting)
But please, close the f'ing thing, besides ugly, all kind of dirt, mud and stuff will get inside the tire, even insects and vermin would find a home there. Thanks.
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Centrifugal force will probably take care of that.
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Yes (mostly) and that's a big problem: a lot more stuff can get stuck in all those nooks and crevices, and the holes if they end up making them for reduced aquaplaning. Lots of projectiles will ensue. They should have co-invented it with unbreakable windshields, and body parts and paints that don't dent.
Due to its geometry, the projectiles will not be limited to the first mile or so of higher speed travel, they may remain stuck for long periods to then dislodge any time
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TPMS mandate (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm in if this means the end of TPMS and spike strips.
Or if it hastens the arrival of EVs with hub motors.
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Would be nice. The problem with that is more fundamental, as in-wheel motors add a lot of mass, and specifically, unsprung mass. This wheel is already tens of percents heavier than a traditional wheel with rim. That causes a ton of additional wear on the suspension, tire, brakes, steering and the in-wheel motor itself; poses additional constraints for wheel suspension geometry; alters the ride characteristics including safety and comfort.
As neat as this concept is, the current EV goal is, retaining safety a
How do they make them and why do they last? (Score:4, Interesting)
They claim the airless tires take less raw materials to make and last longer than regular tires.
Anyone know why? That seems counter-intuitive to me. I can see lasting longer, but I do not understand how they can take less raw material than what is basically a balloon.
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Re:How do they make them and why do they last? (Score:5, Interesting)
Tread life *in practice* may be longer because people won't be driving around on improperly inflated tires.
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Tread life *in practice* may be longer because people won't be driving around on improperly inflated tires.
Putting aside the fact that I inflate my tyres properly, the advice with pneumatic tyres is to increase the pressure if you are carrying heavier loads. For example if you have overweight parents-in-law regularly in the back seat. Can't be done with airless tyres so they would wear faster.
Of course, not everyone has overweight parents-in-law regularly in the back seat, but not everyone neglects their tyre pressures either. I worked as a garage mechanic for a time and never particularly noticed tyre wear
Re:How do they make them and why do they last? (Score:5, Informative)
The claim is not that the finished product contains less material, but that the entire manufacturing process consumes less material.
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I doubt it's about "less materials" as it is "cheaper materials". An all-plastic wheel made from a single mold will cost less to make than a tire impregnated with lots of crossing steel cords. That's why the tire weighs more, BTW. Plastic is lighter than steel, but not for a structure of equivalent strength. There is certainly more material in the airless tire overall, to compensate for the lack of steel reinforcement (same reason why plastic radiators and intake manifolds are actually heavier than thei
Run flat tires (Score:2)
Major flaw (Score:3)
WTF? (Score:3, Interesting)
Secondly, you don't have to look after your tire pressures; that doesn't just save you time,
Apparently I am the only person on the entire planet who can take two minutes of a single day once a month to check their tire pressure. Even better, if you go to a place which has free air (and there some around), you can set the pump to whatever pressure you want and let it do the work in the same amount of time.
Considering what these things will cost, I'll take the two minutes once a month.
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Many people consider it part of car servicing. The mechanics on the other hand say that is news to them.
I check the pressure monthly but I don't count. Car nut.
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Around my place air is not free (you have to buy special coins from the busy desk) and the filling stations are so small that you block a pump to do your thing, but the pump is in use.... Needless to say that it takes more than 2 minutes to do that.
I miss my time in CA where air was free in every filling station, and since all filling station had one air pump, they would be free 99% of the time.
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All modern cars have wireless tyre pressure monitoring, so there isn't any need to manually check. Apparently people were too lazy to do it once a month, in answer to your question, so the automatic system had to be mandated by law.
Same with detecting faulty lights, modern vehicles by law have to warn the driver.
Which raises the question, if your car is expecting wireless tire pressure sensors and throws up errors when they aren't found, does that mean you will need a little box to send fake sensor data if
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Apparently I am the only person on the entire planet who can take two minutes of a single day once a month to check their tire pressure.
Yeah most likely. Curiously are you the only person who gets up from the couch to change the TV channel too, or did you embrace the amazing technology of the remote control to save you time?
Just because you do something doesn't mean there isn't a benefit in automating it away, especially for something as easily skipped as a tire pressure check.
I wonder how this will affect autoracing? (Score:2)
Tire pressure is an important part of setting up a car. How will you regulate tire temperatures now?
Re: I wonder how this will affect autoracing? (Score:2)
If they sponsor your class you'll drive these tires and like it. It's only an important part of tuning if you can tune it, you will adapt if you can't.
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Racers need not buy tweels and already buy racing tires. Tweel need not be a universal solution. There are no universal pneumatic tires either. If raced there will be appropriate compounds available as with pneumatics.
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There are a great many racing series that require DOT legal tires. I race in two that require 200TW street tires. Now, you won't see any of our crap on TV, but that's a small part of racing.
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Now, you won't see any of our crap on TV, but that's a small part of racing.
Too small to fit into the word "racing." You'd have to say something like, "I wonder how this will affect niche racing that uses street-legal tires?"
And the answer is that it won't, because they'll specify pneumatic tires for many years, and then eventually they'll switch to just using these, but since the rolling resistance will be the same, it won't change anything.
Cost? (Score:2)
Let's have it! Come on! Stop avoiding the question.
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If you have to ask...
The important claim is not in the cost. The important claim is that they will last longer than conventional tires. This category of tire already exists, but they don't last long and can't be used at freeway speeds. That's been the challenge.
I drive a 21 year old vehicle, and I'd happily pay double or even triple what I pay for tires now if these are all the things they claim, and if they make a good enough all-weather version. And right now I'm using Michelin Defender, which is one of t
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Someone said about premature wear of pnuematics because of wrong pressures, but if you care about costs then simply check your pressures. FWIW, I check mine about once a month and they never change.
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Whatever the claim says, a main consideration is cost per mile. It is no good lasting twice as long if they cost three times as much, and I see no reason why they should last longer than pneumatic tyres anyway.
Absolutely false, if it lasts twice as long and costs three times as much, a lot of people will be interested.
The driving performance of the tire changes as the tire ages. If that curve is the same, but the lifespan doubles, that delivers a more pleasant driving experience the whole time, because there will be less perceived change.
Also, for people who overspend and don't live within their means, the increased cost is a no-go. For people with a median income who live within their means, the absolute cost of
Lovin' it! (Score:2)
Sounds like a problem for stop sticks. (Score:2)
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Remote engine killswitch in all new cars. Already exists in quite a few models that are leased.
Low profile tires.. (Score:3)
Cool, it's the smart wheels from Snow Crash. (Score:2)
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Cool, it's the smart wheels from Snow Crash.
IIRC the smartwheel spokes ended in rubber pads, that's a point of similarity. And they rotate around a hub, that's two points. But that's it. They literally could not be any more different and still be called wheels.
Retrofit (Score:3)
I think the biggest disadvantage is that it's a full wheel and not just a tire, so you can't just replace your old tire with this one. Also, I am wondering about the homolgation of this kind of thing in many countries, as, again, this is a full wheel.
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I think pneumatic tires are rather cool (Score:2)
Using compressed air as a spring is a nice concept, and very simple when you get it working. This airless tire looks rather complicated. I imagine it could be useful for a road trip on the Moon, where air is in short supply.
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Pneumatic tires have some advantages if you need to change the size of your contact patch, or if you plan to drive through loose rocky soil. For literally every other situation, tweels are superior and are frankly no more complicated. You're looking at the spokes which seem complicated, but are actually very simple to produce and are actually less complicated than sidewalls. And the tread section can be less complicated than it is now if it's held up by the spokes and deformable rim.
Moon buggies actually us
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The tread pattern can be whatever they want to produce. Presumably they will tackle the market of vehicles which currently use run-flat passenger tires first because that's the obvious place to go. Then they will probably do all-terrains, or heavy truck tires. That's what I really want them to get to, because I'm going to need tires on our bus conversion soonish and I'd really like to buy one last set that will probably last the full lifetime of the vehicle as I plan to use it. It runs 22.5s... the overall
How is this supposed to work in snow? (Score:3)
I was surprised to see the sides of these tires are completely open. This would seem to allow snow and water into the interior "springs", which would then freeze overnight while the car sits and, I assume, basically ruin the shock absorbing potential of the design. Mud and dirt would also be a problem, but I suspect less of one as I would expect it to be flung out during driving - although I guess frozen mud might be an issue.
I can't see anything about snow driving, so are these summer-only designs?
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I was surprised to see the sides of these tires are completely open.
How would you close them in? You'd need something like a sidewall, which could deform with the wheel. And then at that point, you might as well fill it up with air and drive on it.
questions (Score:5, Interesting)
So...price?
If it takes "less resources to make" that equals cheaper, right? (He said, knowing what the answer would be...)
Second, I'm curious about open-structure tires like that in my local conditions in Minnesota. Summer, great. Deep winter, probably fine. The 4 months of the year where we see nice days but those vast puddles of slush freeze solid each night...? I'm really curious if you park this in 2" deep puddle, and then try to drive away the next morning, what does ice in those interstices do to the function/life of the tire?
Bet they won't be cheap (Score:3)
Price? (Score:3)
Right now, tires are unbelievably expensive in the US. Expect to pay like $400 for a set of sedan tires. Tires are made from petroleum, so you can expect that ending fossil fuels means ending tires. It will be necessary to go to more sustainable renewable materials, such as wood.
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Why not? It looks like they have some give in what they're referring to as the "spokes" internally. I don't really see the downside if they can be tweaked for performance the way they're saying.
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Why not? It looks like they have some give in what they're referring to as the "spokes" internally. I don't really see the downside if they can be tweaked for performance the way they're saying.
And, as the noted, they're simpler -- for example, no air pressure monitors, that (I think) are now required in the U.S. -- and last longer.
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Once when I was entering freeway ramp which takes 270 degree turn, my tire valve (or whatever they are called) went bad and the tire lost complete pressure. Experience was similar to tire burst. I completely lost the control on the wheel and it got jammed in one extreme position and my car turned 180 degree. Luckily, no one was injured and my car didn't hit any vehicle or anything else. It was only $5 repair cost but a very dangerous incident. So I am happy to see this and will definitely buy when available
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Can someone teach me how water inside the tire contributes to hydroplaning? Thanks!
Perhaps they meant that holes through the tread provide another way to quickly shed water from the contact surface, which would help reduce the chances of hydroplaning.
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My guess is that the water on the road will flow through the hole instead of getting trapped between the road and the tire and creating a slippery layer
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It's just showing off I guess. When there is a need to close them they close them. Otherwise as soon as they collect mud they will go off balance and start vibrating on higher speed vehicles.
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Since the tire doesn't have any interior void if you have a hole in the tread the water can "escape" through the tire instead of getting trapped between the tire and the road. So technically water never gets inside the tire it just passes through the tire.
If you get/have water inside a normal pneumatic tire you have more problems than hydroplaning. 8^)
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I would wait until Bernie or AOC become President. Then there will be free money for everyone.
For once you're probably right, but the number of trilllion-dollar bills you would have to carry around for everyday shopping would probably involve considerable weight.
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Of course, if you used accurate comparisons your right wing propaganda would be revealed for the farce that it is. The reality is in Europe, Bernie and AOC would be mainstream center-left and reflect the general ways many countries there are governed. Not the extreme left that represents Venezuela and the USSR like you have to pretend is what would happen t
Vehicle (and Tweel) sales say otherwise (Score:2)
I've been alive for much longer than forty years and if you've been around that long and can't afford a new ride in the US, you failed at life. (Choosing not to buy one as a matter of economic planning is different than not being able to afford one.)
Tweels have sold very well for Polaris and other UTVs civil and military. Not only can those customers afford new trucks they can afford to kit out their new UTVs as they prefer.
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Oh look, it's that asshole who makes fake accounts to troll people. Three Ls, very clever.
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Just to be clear, you do know that you're replying to a troll sporting a fake opinion, right? Someone with a stupid vendetta keeps creating accounts like rsilllvergun above (three l's this time) and posting, usually with some sort of ridiculous strawman argument for people to respond to as you just did. It's very annoying, and very, very sad.
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but it's interesting how many people blame or credit a president for the term's economy, when the causes and reasons go back decades. For example, Obama term's tanking middle class income (for first 3/4 of it) was from recession started under Bush, yet that was due to lending and real estate issues going back decades. Neither president had the thing to do with it.
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There's a pretty good argument that regulation/deregulation cycles may have a lot to do with recessions and other economic instability. Presidents usually do have something to do with that, although it's obviously mostly the legislative branch.
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In any case, even from memory it's pretty easy to disprove. Massive government spending can precede either a boom (ex: post WW2, Obama) or a crash (ex: Oil Crisis, S&L). Deficits were low/zero during the Clinton years, and then the tech crash and 9/11 happened. Deficits were high during the Obama and Trump years and yet economic growth was excellent.
Total debt as a percentag
Re: Who can afford one? (Score:2)
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no he wasn't, but than neither was Bush before him, the causes of that went back decades. My point was presidents have little to do with middle class income at all.
Re: Who can afford one? (Score:3)
Actually that was due to loose lending policies that were designed in the spirit of affirmative action. Basically wokism caused that recession, not any particular president.
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Actually it was not.
It was due to deregulation of the banks.
Guess which party keeps calling for de-regulations?
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