Yahoo Pulls Out of China, Citing 'Challenging Business and Legal Environment' (variety.com) 65
Yahoo has officially exited China, shutting down all of its services in the communist country as of Monday, Nov. 1. From a report: "In recognition of the increasingly challenging business and legal environment in China, Yahoo's suite of services will no longer be accessible from mainland China as of November 1," a company spokesperson said in an emailed statement. "Yahoo remains committed to the rights of our users and a free and open internet. We thank our users for their support," the rep added. Yahoo's exit from China coincided with the enactment of the country's Personal Information Protection Law, a privacy law that went into effect Nov. 1 that imposes new data-collection restrictions on tech companies, the Wall Street Journal reported.
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China needs to be cut off and we need factory's to (Score:2)
China needs to be cut off and we need factory's to move out of there and back to the usa.
Re:China needs to be cut off and we need factory's (Score:4, Informative)
Sorry, but there are plenty of other low-rage countries the factories would move to. I suspect Mexico and South America will be able to expand manufacturing because they don't require ocean transfer of goods, reducing supply risk to US distributors. African nations are also expanding manufacturing. Although it may expand a tad, the rust belt is not returning to its former glory. I'm just the messenger.
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Why would we return to the "glory" that is pollution?
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They don't have exclusive deals, do they? If not, we can take advantage of the infrastructure that China helped build.
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IIUC, China ususally retains ownership of the companies that it subsidizes, even if they aren't located in China. And they usually import the technical workers and management from home. This has caused some unhappiness among the populace of those countries where the factories are built (few local jobs), but the politicians have been paid off, and perhaps convinced that this is good for their country.
N.B.: I'm describing an idealized implementation of the plan. And perhaps this is good for the country as
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Those cheap list prices we got on Chinese manufactured goods were not the real prices. We lined the pockets of corrupt elites and may end up paying for it with our freedoms.
Re:China needs to be cut off and we need factory's (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't disagree, but try explaining that to the sloven masses shuffling through walmart [google.com] in flip-flops. Apparently price and convenience outweigh all other costs.
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I'm really curious what countries you think have "liberal democracies" that do a lot of manufacturing on the order of that which could replace China's. India? caste system and upper class gets to rape, beat or murder lower class to this day. African country? South American?
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solve infrastructure and law enforcement first (Score:5, Informative)
Sorry, but there are plenty of other low-rage countries the factories would move to. I suspect Mexico and South America will be able to expand manufacturing because they don't require ocean transfer of goods, reducing supply risk to US distributors. African nations are also expanding manufacturing. Although it may expand a tad, the rust belt is not returning to its former glory. I'm just the messenger.
China became the world's workshop because a competent gov invested heavily in infrastructure to ensure factories could be built quickly and efficiently. They also had strong law enforcement to keep theft under control. Africa has always had lower wage employees and India was thought to become a manufacturing giant as well, but you try to invest there and building materials disappear, factories never get built, supporting roads and ports aren't upgraded. Competency matters. The USA, China, Japan, Korea, German...all have great records with manufacturing. India? Africa? even wealthy countries like Italy...not so much.
The US tried hard to make Mexico a manufacturing hub, and I'd hardly call it a success. From what I've read and been told, productivity gains are just never met. You open the factory, you're frequently understaffed, equipment goes missing constantly, your factory gets broken into the local law enforcement isn't much help. Despite much lower wages, there are just so many snags that many manufacturers aren't even sure if they're paying less to operate in Mexico. I know Stanley Black and Decker sells many USA made products, particularly from DeWalt. There's really not a huge premium between their USA made vs Mexico made products.
There are MANY things wrong with China, especially if you live there. However, central planning worked out well to industrialize them more rapidly than any country has ever seen before. China also never rested on their laurels. They invested heavily in infrastructure and automation too, beyond what was needed. They have grand plans of taking over much more of the economy, not simply settling for being a cheaper factory for foreign companies.
Sorry, buddy, the rise of China has complexities beyond lots of people willing to work for cheap. The government does look after the economy (their citizen's freedoms...not so much) and from what I can tell seems to have learned the lessons of the past. And no, I'm not some liberal-China-lover. China is a threat. They deserve our respect and our attention. We need to not only keep our eye on them, but learn from them:...their successes, their mistakes, and their plans that may very much be antagonistic to ours and the safety of our allies.
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Why would it be understaffed? In general Mexico has a relatively high unemployment rate.
As far as security, you can stick cameras everywhere and hire more security guards because labor is relatively cheap. If the cops don't prosecute thieves, then publicly sham
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You seem to have some misconceptions about Mexican police.
They are infamous for corruption, kidnapping, violence, arson and vandelism, torture, cartel connections. And you think you can just video them and/or shame them? And imagine if you hit the jackpot and actually video cop who is *member* of cartel... what do you think will happen to you and your business?
They will fuck your shit up, if you're lucky. Kill you painfully and slowly if you're not.
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Video the thieves (employees), not the cops. I suppose sometimes they can be one in the same. But if you talk to them before shaming them, they'd probably let you know.
Gov assistance matters (Score:2)
Why would it be understaffed? In general Mexico has a relatively high unemployment rate.
As far as security, you can stick cameras everywhere and hire more security guards because labor is relatively cheap. If the cops don't prosecute thieves, then publicly shame them on a web-site, along with video of them swiping stuff. Drop flyers with a URL at their local church and child's school.
Is it understaffed near your factory? Are all applicants able to do the work? Some jobs require a degree of skill. My understanding is that if the Chinese gov wants skilled laborers, say forklift drivers, if they don't have enough, they relocate some from another region or train locals. With Mexico, my understanding is there is no assistance outside the free market. China will build all the roads needed, ensure port access, etc (if they like you). The Chinese gov is very invested with ensuring economi
Correction (Score:1)
Re: "other low-rage"
Should be "low-wage". It's a Goddam Freudian slip.
Re:China needs to be cut off and we need factory's (Score:5, Insightful)
China needs to be cut off and we need factory's to move out of there and back to the usa.
There are enough people making money from China that it'll never be "cut off", unless there's a major war between China and the West. And while you can't rule war out, I'd say it's unlikely simply because I don't think there's a country in the West... the US included... that's willing to send their own kids to die for Taiwan or oil fields off the Spratly Islands or North Vietnamese agricultural land. I just don't think anyone has the balls to fight China in their own backyard. So things will continue as they have been: China will continue to grow more powerful, chase more Western tech firms out of China, and continue to encroach on their neighbors. All paid for by cheap crap that Americans continue to buy.
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Hmmm, yes, "grow more powerful". I remember when that use to be called the "red scare". How's that coming along? Invaded Europe yet?
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And while you can't rule war out, I'd say it's unlikely simply because I don't think there's a country in the West... the US included... that's willing to send their own kids to die for Taiwan or oil fields off the Spratly Islands or North Vietnamese agricultural land.
For Taiwan, I could see it happen, if only because of the West's dependency on high end microprocessors. A large percentage of those is made by TSMC in Taiwan. Losing that manufacturing capacity would really hurt. But don't mistake that for loyalty to an ally:
When China gave that other countries the choice of diplomatic relations with mainland China or Taiwan, almost all of them chose to break off relations to Taiwan. Taiwan also got kicked out of the United Nations in 1971.
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Were China to invade Taiwan, I would expect most of those TSMC facilities to be destroyed by the Taiwanese. It's still a loss to the West, but I don't expect China to exactly gain them, either.
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I think the USA might try to help stop the invasion. But only as long as there is a chance to save TSMC.
Re: China needs to be cut off and we need factory' (Score:1, Troll)
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I'm sure the Native Taiwanese and indigenous [wikipedia.org] have their own thoughts on that claim. China having a claim is about the same level as ours on Hawaii.
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Taiwan is indeed called Republic of China, and it certainly is where Chiang Kai-shek's government retreated to when pushed around by the communists.
Chiang's government was already, IIRC, a military dictatorship before getting pushed to Taiwan.
I would agree that his government was not a great one.
Taiwan seems to have grown a more democratic government in the years since then.
I would think that Taiwan's claim on the Chinese mainland is probably about as good as China's claim on Taiwan.
The difference being the
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What if China found a way to destroy the TSMC facilities and then backed off without escalating to a full-blown war?
What would happen then?
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There are enough people making money from China that it'll never be "cut off", unless there's a major war between China and the West. And while you can't rule war out, I'd say it's unlikely simply because I don't think there's a country in the West... the US included... that's willing to send their own kids to die for Taiwan or oil fields off the Spratly Islands or North Vietnamese agricultural land. I just don't think anyone has the balls to fight China in their own backyard. So things will continue as they have been: China will continue to grow more powerful, chase more Western tech firms out of China, and continue to encroach on their neighbors. All paid for by cheap crap that Americans continue to buy.
Here's the problem with what you say, although you aren't wrong in it. So after World War II everybody said "No more Nazis - ever!". And I guess they kind of meant it.... until China became Nazi Germany 2.0. Then they didn't mean it.
If we in the USA were to put Muslims in "re-educational" camps, the entire Muslim world would be calling for violent jihad against us. China does it and various Muslim governments say "We're totally cool with this". People were kind of cool when Hitler started the
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While you advise "never get involved in a land war in Asia," I wouldn't dismiss it as inconceivable.
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Who will work in all these factories? People are not going to gravitate to manufacturing, just because it is there. With the current manufacturing in America, there is a problem of getting a set of good, skilled long term employees. Just going by gut instinct and cutting off China, is (and has) gone badly. That part that is made in china for $0.002 per unit which if done in America is going to cost $0.0023 per unit, may be enough for the other company in the supply chain to re-engineer the product to no
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Who will work in all these factories?
Robots, and the people who tend, service and repair them. Seriously. When US manufacturing comes back it'll be heavily automated. When you see videos of production lines in China, there are a lot of people in bunny suits assembling and inspecting phones and stuff. The only reason it's not more automated is because they had so much cheap labor, but even in China that's less and less the case. Other countries will experience the same. Raw materials in, finished go
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Automation isn't as big of a benefit as people think. It works if you can build a product with a Blind one Armed man, but for a lot of products it still takes people who can adapt, and do particular detailed work with a lot of different conditions.
Robots and automation are very expensive, upfront, and usually very expensive to change. Human labor is actually much cheaper than people realize, they just budget it them differently so it always seems like they are being a bigger cost to the organization than
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Today, perhaps. It is unlikely to be true forever. Or even very long.
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China needs to be cut off and we need factory's to move out of there and back to the usa.
While we may need to divest from China, in terms of manufacturing, you are unlikely to see much of the manufacturing coming back to the US or European country. It isn't just about one factory, but the ecosystem of related factories, providing parts to each other, along with the cost of wages and exchange rate. Most 'first world' are unable to host a factory that would allow the products to sell at a price consumers are willing to pay.
BTW this video on "Thailand's Hard Drive Industry Problem", also gives an
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Move factors to South America, and we would not have to move millions of South Americans to the USA.
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Cutting them off is a bad idea. So, however, is relying on them. Yes, rebuild local industry, but accept that it's going to be more expensive.
Note that the reason China is so significant an enemy is the the manufacturing companies are in partnership with the government, with the government in control. So take away corporation rights in the US. (Corporations are NOT people!) And reinstate the laws that corporate charters can be revoked if they don't operate in the interest of the state. (Note that I wa
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China needs to be cut off and we need factory's to move out of there and back to the usa.
Bring back sweatshops [wikipedia.org] Make America Great Again !
Do Americans even want those jobs? Businesses are struggling to find workers for the current better jobs.
Just in case, I'm selling my bitcoins and investing it all in suicide nets.
Younglings: (Score:2)
"What's a Yahoo?"
Too bad this isn't a company that matters. (Score:2)
I work in a rather backwards industry so we have a few dealers and reps that still use yahoo. If not for that I wouldn't think they existed anymore.
Applaud The Move, Not The Reasons (Score:5, Insightful)
I wish more companies would decide to pull up stakes and leave China to protest it's authoritarian government, but let's face it, none of them ever will. There's just too much money to be made in a country with over a billion potential customers. Even Yahoo isn't leaving because of the authoritarian government, they're leaving because they won't be able to harvest all that sweet personal data with this new law and that means they can't make a profitable go of it.
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True. Yahoo could have said that they pulled out because of ethical reasons and just maybe gotten away with it.
Apple may pull out their services because of legal reasons around the data, but they are not able to play the ethics card with a straight face as long as they are dependent on China for their manufacturing capacity.
How about Google - if they can't harvest data, do they have any compelling reason to stay?
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Google actually has a lot of lesser known products, like designing and manufacturing network racks and trays, which probably is done largely in China. So, while the bulk of their money does come from ad revenue, they do have some other areas that might make it worth the while to stick it out. Though they are slowly moving a lot of manufacturing to Vietnam, probably in anticipation of completely vacating the China market in the not too distant future.
Not just a free and open internet (Score:4, Informative)
The Cyberspace Administration of China, which polices the countryâ(TM)s internet, has created telephone and online hotlines to encourage citizens to report violations. It has even published a list of 10 âoerumorsâ that are forbidden to discuss.
Was Mao Zedongâ(TM)s Long March really not so long? Did the Red Army skirt heavy fighting against the Japanese during World War II to save its strength for the civil war against the Nationalist forces of Chiang Kai-shek? Was Maoâ(TM)s son, Mao Anying, killed by an American airstrike during the Korean War because he lit a stove to make fried rice?
All of the above are punishable by jail. In fact, any questioning of historical "facts" is subject to punishment. It's easy to see why Yahoo! left. If someone posts something like the above on their site, China will make them liable.
Oddly, this sounds eerily similar to what Republicans want to have in this country. Can't question historical "facts" such as the fight at the Alamo being about bravery and freedom rather than protection of slavery [historynewsnetwork.org].
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Oddly, this sounds eerily similar to what Republicans want to have in this country. Can't question historical "facts" such as the fight at the Alamo being about bravery and freedom rather than protection of slavery.
Issues about the motivation aside, we're going to need a citation on that 'can't question facts' thing. The GOP doesn't cancel culture it's opponents. Just laugh at them.
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One need only look at CRT. Even though the idea is to more fully show America's history, the good and the bad, Republicans are doing everything they can to stop schools from teaching historical facts. In Tennessee, some parents are upset their kids might be taught all about the civil rights movement because it will supposedly make the [cnn.com]
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"Tennessee law makes lesson plans illegal if students "feel discomfort, guilt, or anguish.""
Violates their safe space, I guess.
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Still don't see any examples of Republican cancel culture. They might be lying. But it's their right to spew bullshit, including calling Democrats bad names.
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One need only look at CRT. Even though the idea is to more fully show America's history
LOL! Thanks for the laugh!!!
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I think both sides of the isle try to accomplish that in some way or another, but one side of the aisle has actually gone pretty far down that road lately...
- By getting in bed with social media (and silencing voices which they disagree with),
- Turning their back to violence toward their political counterparts (think riots over the last year you probably know little about)
- Using the media as their mo
This just in... (Score:2)
Yahoo pulls out of China.
A frustrated China could not be reached for comment.
(h/t a young Chevy Chase)
The problem with the "pull out" method (Score:3)
Is that it doesn't stop the Chinese from spinning up it's own little rug rats that look just like you...
I've seen entire companies flat-out CLONED by Chinese interests.
At first they simply produce knock-offs.
It's when they diversify and produce their own stuff that you start running into trouble. Because they're slapping YOUR name on the products.