Toyota 'Reviewing' Key Fob Remote Start Subscription Plan After Massive Blowback (thedrive.com) 154
An anonymous reader shares a report: Earlier this month, we broke a story about Toyota locking its key fob remote start function behind a monthly subscription. If owners of certain models aren't actively enrolled in a larger Toyota connected services plan, the proximity remote start function on the fob -- that is, when you press the lock button three times to start the car while outside of it -- will not work even though it sends the signal directly to the car. Obviously, this sent people into a frenzy whether they own a Toyota or not, because it was seen as a dark harbinger of the perils of fully-connected cars. Automakers now have the ability to nickel and dime people to death by charging ongoing subscription fees for functions that used to be a one-and-done purchase, and it looked like Toyota was hopping on the bandwagon.
At the time, Toyota declined to give us a detailed answer on why it chose to take a feature that doesn't need an internet connection to function and moved it behind a paywall. Today, we've got answers. Toyota now claims it never intended to market the key fob remote start as a real feature, and it also says the subscription requirement was an inadvertent result of a relatively small technical decision related to the way its new vehicles are architectured. Finally, Toyota has heard the outrage over the last week -- a spokesperson told us the company was caught off guard by the blowback -- and its executive team is currently examining whether it's possible to reverse course and drop the subscription requirement for key fob remote start.
At the time, Toyota declined to give us a detailed answer on why it chose to take a feature that doesn't need an internet connection to function and moved it behind a paywall. Today, we've got answers. Toyota now claims it never intended to market the key fob remote start as a real feature, and it also says the subscription requirement was an inadvertent result of a relatively small technical decision related to the way its new vehicles are architectured. Finally, Toyota has heard the outrage over the last week -- a spokesperson told us the company was caught off guard by the blowback -- and its executive team is currently examining whether it's possible to reverse course and drop the subscription requirement for key fob remote start.
Oh crap! (Score:5, Funny)
Re: Oh crap! (Score:3)
They went with the cheapest bidder on the PR front from the looks of it. Thats all they could come up with? Um sorry guys we didn't mean for a feature nearly ALL cars with a fob have to be a feature unless you paid for additional features. Now, please enter your credentials to be authorized with our servers so you can open the fridge and get a glass of milk. Total bullshiy spin when they should have just accepted the egg on their face and simply said "we fucked up and have nowrrplaced the entire marketing
Re: Oh crap! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
“We apologize for the fault in the subtitles. Those responsible have been sacked.”
Re: (Score:2)
"A M00se once bit my sister..."
Re: Oh crap! (Score:3)
So is his sister.
Re: (Score:2)
I get to have infinite remote starts for free. LOL. Something that people in the future won't have! Old cars will increase in value!
202x is the new "1984" (Score:3)
As comment title says.
From Canon printers refusing to scan if there's not enough ink, to Toyota keyfob-gate and more.
Re: (Score:3)
Startgate
Re: (Score:2)
But what about the heated seats being a subscription? Something that's really needed in northern countries.
Of course - people will find a way around that and hotwire the heated seats instead of paying that subscription.
Remote Key Fob Start isn't a real feature? (Score:2)
Reverse course (Score:5, Informative)
and its executive team is currently examining whether it's possible to reverse course and drop the subscription requirement for key fob remote start.
Sure it's possible. Just stop doing it. Issue refunds where necessary. Why does this require an examination?
Re:Reverse course (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
To see if it's possible to take their hand out of your wallet, it really seems to be stuck...
Come for the wallet, stay for the fun!
Re: (Score:2)
To see if it's possible to take their hand out of your wallet, it really seems to be stuck...
That is why I keep those barbed hooks in there in the first place.
Re: (Score:2)
and its executive team is currently examining whether it's possible to reverse course and drop the subscription requirement for key fob remote start.
Sure it's possible. Just stop doing it. Issue refunds where necessary. Why does this require an examination?
That might reduce this year's YPC purchase ratio (yachts-per-CEO). Which is impossible. Examination is required to find how to screw customers over in a different way to maintain YPC.
Re:Reverse course (Score:5, Insightful)
"Examination" is probably executive-speak for "we're going to wait a while to see if this blows over and we can continue as planned, or perhaps walk the plan back if people are actually pissed about this."
Also, a subscription was an "inadvertent result" blah blah...? The idea that the remote start is an "unofficial user hack" is beyond absurd. My 2005 car has a fob with a remote start feature. It's been a standard feature for decades now.
Toyota is really stretching their credibility with their responses. Not looking good for a purchase of a new Toyota in the future.
Re: (Score:2)
how difficult would it be to add remote start to a car that so far has a typical, physical key insertion, kind of ignition?
Re: (Score:2)
They will change to button start at the same time.
Re: (Score:2)
well, I suspect a walk back will be slow and done to signal to the other manufacturers that they're willing to do this and if they are too there are no alternatives and they will all do it in the name of profit.
Re: (Score:2)
> Why does this require an examination?
Because Toyota would have to pay for the cellular data connection for the cars and not charge for them.
Supposedly the remote start is a "cloud" feature. At least according to the last ./ story.
Perhaps they could reengineer for bluetooth, I have no idea what hardware is in the fobs.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Supposedly the remote start is a "cloud" feature. At least according to the last ./ story.
Which is a mind-bogglingly stupid design decision in the first place. What if the customer drives to some place where cell reception is non-existent - ya know, those places where they film these cars in their advertising to show how you can "get away from it all," ostensibly in this vehicle - and then can't remote start, even if their subscription is up-to-date? Some engineer pointed this out to management, and management forced them to do it anyway. God, I hate MBAs. No, it's not the end of the world,
Re: (Score:2)
I also have an MBA. I only took it so as to be able to tell other MBA's to go F themselves in MBA speak. I was never interested in being a manager but it was useful to be able to decode the hidden MBA only messages in documents.
MBA -- More Bloody Arseliskers.
Re:Reverse course (Score:5, Informative)
There's a diagram in the article that explains it. The on-board software that controls the remote start is in a module that first checks to see if there is an active subscription before allowing the command to proceed. So it has nothing to do with the fob - it's the the module in the car that's the issue.
Further exacerbating the issue is this is apparently an "undocumented feature", not officially listed in the user manual. The code essentially uses the same data path as the smartphone-based app, which DOES require a subscription to activate that feature. A bit more understandable I suppose, as that requires a cellular connection, which is not free for the manufacturer, and very much seems like an optional feature.
However, the Data Communication Module clearly is downstream from the cell-phone connectivity, so there's really no reason, unless it's locked into hardware somehow (seems unlikely), that the DCM can't start the car without an active subscription. What it sounds like needs to happen is that the "remote start" command needs two variants, one triggered by the fob, and the other from the app, so that the module can distinguish whether it should check if it needs a subscription first.
So this is likely fixable with a software/firmware fix, but of course, management needs to wait for the code monkeys to confirm that's actually the case.
Re:Reverse course (Score:5, Interesting)
The remote start function worked for months for owners without a subscription, until an update was pushed that instructed the car to ignore the command unless there was an active subscription.
So there's no question if it can do what it has already done.
The problem Toyota is having, is that they have been paying for all the infrastructure to lock these features behind, intending to make money from subscriptions in the future to cover that.
That's the only reason they point out this wasn't an advertised feature. If it was, this would be a crime, known as bait and switch.
Their new problem is that, despite not being a legal bait and switch crime, what they have done is seen by customers and prospective customers as a functional equivalent.
The reason bait and switch is a crime in the first place is because it is a form of scam/fraud.
Just because they did it in a way that doesn't meet the legal requirements, doesn't mean people won't still feel scammed and defrauded.
They don't need to fight a legal claim (well, they probably will have to, but they will certainly succeed) but instead they have to fight human feelings.
In a way, this is worse. Sure, no crime, no fines, no other legal ramifications.
But in the publics opinion, toyota got away with scamming and defrauding people in a way they won't be punished for.
It's worse because there is almost nothing they can do now to defend themselves from what people think. There's no court to argue their case in, and no judge to pass a verdict.
They are left having to convince all their customers, and prospective future customers, that the feature they took away, wasn't actually taken away, after those people had the feature and no longer do.
Re: (Score:2)
That's a good point. I had missed the fact that it was previously working and disabled by a software update. So, obviously another software patch can restore this functionality if they choose to.
Re: (Score:2)
In other words... (Score:5, Insightful)
"We got caught! Time for some damage control!"
Re: (Score:2)
"We got caught! Lets initiate a study to see if we have to do damage control, or if they'll forget."
Next Car Purchase (Score:5, Insightful)
My next car purchase will not be a Toyota.
I have owned many Toyotas over the years, but they have now joined Sony on the list of abusive companies to avoid.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: Next Car Purchase (Score:5, Interesting)
Thats exactly what stopped me from pulling the trigger on a Prius, once they went AWD. People are restoring clunkers from the 90s and earlier just to avoid it. Wish markets would get the message.
Re: (Score:2)
Which car segment are you looking for?
Re: Next Car Purchase (Score:2)
Connected cars, duh
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Next Car Purchase (Score:5, Interesting)
Uhh no, LTE modem usually connects nice and neat on the a-pillar. On my last car it was literally pull back the a-pillar no tools required, unscrew the coax, pop it back together.
Everything except navigation worked. No nag screens either. Try harder
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Next Car Purchase (Score:5, Insightful)
Deciding not to buy a Toyota because they wanted to charge a subscription for "remote start" is like deciding not to buy a particular car because the company charges an exorbitant fee to upgrade its GPS navigation system (which they all do). I hardly think this is a deal-killer for a Toyota purchasing decision. If it is for you, fine, but I don't get it. It seems to me there are a long list of more important attributes of a car than "remote start."
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Fine, then identify what else, don't just make your decision based on remote start. I've got news for you...every single car company in the world plays those games. Have you been to a car dealer lately? They are the definition of scummy / sleazy. Toyota doesn't come even close to standing out as worse than the others, because it wanted to charge money for remote start.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Fine, then identify what else
That isn't how it works; you can't. You have to judge if there will be something else or not based on how they treat their customers, how they manage the relationship.
Have you been to a car dealer lately? They are the definition of scummy / sleazy.
You seem surprised that anybody would alter their purchasing decisions to avoid being treated that way. To me, you sound like an idiot.
"They hobbled my 200 HP car!" (Score:4, Interesting)
"*If you're subscription lapses you may lose also access to engine tuning updates, and your performance will revert to its default state."
"They hobbled my 190 HP car!"
I think that many of us remember when Intel floated the idea of putting in the option to unlock more performance from the CPU if you paid a fee. Around the Pentium 4 era, IIRC. Lol, it was like one of the few things they could do to unite all kinds of technology users to rain down vitriol on them.
Re: (Score:2)
Embarrassing spelling error (you're for your), sorry about that.
Re:"They hobbled my 200 HP car!" (Score:5, Insightful)
IBM does that today with their mainframes.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Internet of Crap (Score:4, Insightful)
Internet of (Score:2)
are you telling me that you can get a WiFi hookup to your water closet?
Re: (Score:3)
Japan is a real place. They've moved way beyond the three seashells.
https://cdn1.i-scmp.com/sites/... [i-scmp.com]
Bad design (Score:5, Insightful)
If the official story is true, it's a really bad design. In the diagram provided, the correct place to make the decision about a valid subscription would be at Toyota's datacenter. If no subscription, simply do not pass the command on to the car.
That still leaves the question, why were they phasing out the obviously liked and useful feature on the fob other than to drive people to the subscription encumbered web app? Still a dick move and not defensible considering that the receiver, firmware, and auto-starting logic is still needed anyway.
Good design, ushering in the next model (Score:2)
Which won't start at all without a subscription.
It sort of makes sense, a lower purchase price but a monthly charge.
Re:Good design, ushering in the next model (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
and you can't start your car
Can't remote start your car. You can still get it and poke the 'Start' button, if I'm not mistaken.
Re: (Score:3)
I believe they're discussing an all too possible future where cars are licensed to the user with DRM on the start button.
Re: (Score:2)
DRM on the start button
Start button? I do not understand. [youtube.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Which they is doing that, the Lizard People or the Masons? Or the ones from They Live?
Re: Good design, ushering in the next model (Score:2)
Re:Bad design (Score:4, Insightful)
If the official story is true, it's a really bad design. In the diagram provided, the correct place to make the decision about a valid subscription would be at Toyota's datacenter. If no subscription, simply do not pass the command on to the car.
What happens if cell service is unavailable?
That still leaves the question, why were they phasing out the obviously liked and useful feature on the fob other than to drive people to the subscription encumbered web app? Still a dick move and not defensible considering that the receiver, firmware, and auto-starting logic is still needed anyway.
Pressing the lock button 3-times (with a 3-second hold on the last time) doesn't sound like feature they intended for widespread use. If anything it sounds like a Dev/QA hack they decided to leave in. If they wanted remote-start on the fob as a standard feature they would have added a button.
I suspect it was less a planned phase out and more a quirk that no one really thought much about thus they didn't pay attention to how it was routed through the DCM.
Re: (Score:2)
What happens if cell service is unavailable?
Then it doesn't work even if you do have a subscription, just like now.
They used to advertise the feature and salesmen showed it off to prospective customers.
Re: Bad design (Score:4, Informative)
Pressing the lock button 3-times (with a 3-second hold on the last time) doesn't sound like feature they intended for widespread use.
I have a 2011 Toyota Sienna. I purchased the official remote start feature (advertised in the model brochure) and that is the exact press sequence it uses.
Re: (Score:2)
That's not quite the point (Score:2, Troll)
Toyota is reaching out to remotely disable functionality of *your* car. That you bought. That is not their property anymore. Through their telemetry that you can't disable or examine the logs for.
So, what else will they decide to do?
Re: (Score:2)
Their findings were disturbing. The only thing you truly own is the metal and plastic. The software is licensed to you, and Toyota retains ownership of anything about the software, including the chips its running on.
Re: (Score:2)
That still leaves the question, why were they phasing out the obviously liked and useful feature on the fob other than to drive people to the subscription encumbered web app?
Is it really useful? Or maybe I should ask, "What percentage of people is this really useful to?" I live in a warm part of the USA and some years we don't get snow at all. If we get any, we get maybe 1 or 2 inches and it will be gone in another day or two. I've never had a car that has remote start and I've gotten along just fine without it.
Re: (Score:2)
Given they've had enough complaints to make them re-consider, there must be a fair number of people who find it useful.
Too late (Score:2, Interesting)
a spokesperson told us the company was caught off guard by the blowback
Out of touch morons. There is no other explanation.
and its executive team is currently examining whether it's possible to reverse course and drop the subscription requirement for key fob remote start.
It doesn't matter. I will never buy a car from them ever. There is no way I would ever trust them.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Naa... BMW backpedalled on charging for carplay a couple of years ago.
We ran this up the flagpole and ... (Score:3)
Toyota now claims it never intended to market the key fob remote start as a real feature, and it also says the subscription requirement was an inadvertent result ... Toyota ... was caught off guard by the blowback -- and its ... examining whether it's possible to reverse course ...
Meaning: We "accidentally" created and enabled a capability we didn't mea to, then "accidentally" tried to see if people would pay for it routinely instead of once, even though it doesn't technically need a subscription, or even remote connectivity, then "were surprised" when people balked at us being so obviously greedy. Our bad.
[And, of course it's possible to "reverse course".]
Bad idea from the start (Score:4, Insightful)
Frankly, and I know this is not going to be popular, I think it's a bad idea to be able to start the card remotely. This is a piece of heavy machinery and should have someone in the driver's seat any time the engine is running. Driver gets out, engine stops. Driver gets in, has to press a button, turn a key or something to start it but only with someone in the driver's seat.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Bad idea from the start (Score:4, Informative)
Manual-safe remote starts have been available for ~20 years now. I currently have one on my own car. The way it works is the remote start requires the driver to exit the vehicle while it's running. This is a guarantee the car is not in gear. Once the driver has exited and the door is locked, the engine shuts off, and is ready to remote-start from the key fob or app.
Re: Bad idea from the start (Score:2)
Joke is on those of us who prefer 3 pedals. Theyâ(TM)re just getting rid of the manuals instead.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I guess the Teslas are manual. The computer isn't choosing the gear ratio for you. They still don't need a stick though, because there's only one gear ratio.
Re: Bad idea from the start (Score:4, Funny)
Manual car with remote start in gear was the real autopilot beta.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I'd have to agree that the mechanic situation is valid but I was thinking of the situations where I've seen cars sitting on the side of the road running while the driver is out delivering packages or food to some house up the block. I've also seen many a Youtube video of the cars that have gotten away from their driver because he got out and left it running. Besides in my jurisdiction you are not supposed to idle a car for more than a minute or so even if you're sitting in it so you don't generate excess
marketing (Score:2)
Toyota went all marketing after their recall debacle about a decade ago. Toyota isn't even good at marketing anymore.
Zeck BS (Score:4, Insightful)
"the subscription requirement was an inadvertent result of a relatively small technical decision related to the way its new vehicles are architectured"
Total Zeck-speak BS for "we f*cked up". "Architectured"? Really?
This will be the future of electric cars (Score:2)
Because people won't be able to buy an old car that isn't connected anymore, and fix it up.
Re: (Score:2)
Just curious, why won't they be able to?
I want to know what top exec is fired for this (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
If a top executive isn't fired for this, I will NEVER buy a Toyota again. Bad decisions like this need to be punished and it needs to be at the top.
You are a drama queen.
This is a company in decline (Score:4, Informative)
My girlfriend and I both owned Toyotas for a long time...decades. We've both moved on. Her last one was one of the Celicas that had a problem with oil burning. They had to replace the top half of her engine for free. My last one was just cheap...all kinds of little nickel and dime stuff that NEVER used to happen with a Toyota. This key fob crap is very much in the nickel and dime theme. I don't know how they managed to go so wrong. They still make some fairly decent cars, but until I see hard evidence of a return to their "worth every penny I paid" days, we won't be back. My current Honda Civic has a hair under 300,000 K on it, and except for using a little oil, it's like brand new. Why would I spend my hard-earned cash on a car from a company that's clearly being run by bean counters rather than engineers?
Re: (Score:2)
Companies figured out long ago that they don't have to be far better than the competition - they just have to be slightly less shitty than the next available option.
Re: (Score:2)
Good point.
Re: (Score:2)
Thanks for another data point, my friend! If I remember correctly, somewhere in the mid/late '90s is when they put a redesigned engine in the 4Runner. I happen to know that because a friend of mine bought one a little newer than yours and had problems at around the same mileage as you. The point wasn't that it died so much earlier than other SUVs, it was that Toyota had set the bar very high, and all of a sudden they were slipping while others were getting better. That same guy had an early Celica, and
Ford is the opposite (Score:4, Informative)
Ironically my Ford F-150 is exactly the opposite. It has FordPass which is free for the lifetime of the truck. I can start the truck remotely using the Ford app, and I also figured out the API and am directly controlling it with my own web service (allowing me to start it with Siri by saying "Start truck" or "Unlock truck" to my watch).
This is all free and available for the lifetime of the truck. However, I cannot use a key fob to start it. That is a more premium upgrade with a more expensive package (even though the truck is XLT). I checked into purchasing a key fob with the remote start button (mine can only lock / unlock) but that will not work with my truck. So I can start it remotely, from anywhere, with an app, including stuff like monitoring its position, tire pressure, etc, but I can't start it with a simple key fob.
So who else can start the truck remotely? (Score:2)
Well, you figured it out...
As the owner of an affected vehicle... (Score:5, Insightful)
I pay for the connected services, and the corporate line that the "triple click" on the lock button was never intended to be an official procedure strikes me as complete BS. The Toyota smartphone app has been unusable for months now, and only recently has it been fixed. Prior to a week or so ago, you would be logged out for no reason, receive an error message, be prompted to reenter your password, then enter a 2FA code, then use Face ID, and *perhaps* then it would let you see your vehicle in the app and remote start it. I started triple clicking the keyfob instead.
Translation time again... (Score:2)
"Toyota now claims it never intended to market the key fob remote start as a real feature, and it also says the subscription requirement was an inadvertent result of a relatively small technical decision related to the way its new vehicles are architectured."
Translation:
"We got caught trying to ass-rape our customers but they found out, so now we're gonna say it was never really something we intended to do, honest! For god's sake, don't buy another brand!"
I would never buy a car that had this "feature", so
They'll Be Back (Score:2)
Golden screwdriver (Score:2)
This is becoming more and more common, and this is something that really needs to stop.
My car should never need to connect to the cloud for anything except to update maps for the nav system.
Sorry we got caught (Score:2)
That's what this statement says. They're not even offering a Challenge Pissing discount.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=... [youtube.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Toyta - John Deer (Score:2)
Good. (Score:2)
Because fuck them for even thinking about such a useless money grab.