Carmakers Launch Desperate Attempt To Delay Massachusetts Right-to-Repair Law (gizmodo.com) 63
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Gizmodo: Major car manufacturers aren't giving up on their efforts to stymie Massachusetts' right to repair legislation. Less than two years after residents in the state voted in favor of updated right to repair laws that would let independent auto repair shops receive telematics data from vehicles, groups representing auto manufacturers are now introducing their own new proposals that would delay the law's implementation. If passed, the two new proposals, first viewed by Motherboard, would push back the starting date of Massachusetts' right to repair law to 2025, three years later than the original 2022 start date. Though supporters of the proposal argue the extra years would give automakers more time to comply with the laws, the efforts were derided by critics like Massachusetts Right to Repair Coalition Director Tommy Hickey.
"Massachusetts consumers have spoken, and the law now gives them the right to control their own repair data so that they can get their car fixed where they want," Hickey told the Gloucester Daily Times. "However, instead of listening to their customers and attempting to comply with the ballot initiative, automakers and dealers filed a baseless, anti-democratic lawsuit." For those unaware, Massachusetts' 2020 law was intended to make it easier for small auto shops to access diagnostic data about vehicles without the need for proprietary tools available only to manufacturers. When the law goes into effect, The Drive notes, it would require any automaker doing business in the state to allow this telematics data to be accessible through a smartphone app.
The auto industry has argued making such tools more widely available could come with cybersecurity and vehicle safety risks, though that line of argument has often come across as more akin to fearmongering than actual concern for consumers' well-being. (One ad paid for by the Alliance for Automotive Innovation tried to convince viewers a sexual predator could use vehicle data to stalk and prey upon their victims). Industry groups representing carmakers even went as far as to file a lawsuit in U.S. District Court arguing the law was unconstitutional. The ruling on that suit has yet to be determined.
"Massachusetts consumers have spoken, and the law now gives them the right to control their own repair data so that they can get their car fixed where they want," Hickey told the Gloucester Daily Times. "However, instead of listening to their customers and attempting to comply with the ballot initiative, automakers and dealers filed a baseless, anti-democratic lawsuit." For those unaware, Massachusetts' 2020 law was intended to make it easier for small auto shops to access diagnostic data about vehicles without the need for proprietary tools available only to manufacturers. When the law goes into effect, The Drive notes, it would require any automaker doing business in the state to allow this telematics data to be accessible through a smartphone app.
The auto industry has argued making such tools more widely available could come with cybersecurity and vehicle safety risks, though that line of argument has often come across as more akin to fearmongering than actual concern for consumers' well-being. (One ad paid for by the Alliance for Automotive Innovation tried to convince viewers a sexual predator could use vehicle data to stalk and prey upon their victims). Industry groups representing carmakers even went as far as to file a lawsuit in U.S. District Court arguing the law was unconstitutional. The ruling on that suit has yet to be determined.
it's ok to be raped by the dealer but not be 3rd p (Score:1)
it's ok to be raped by the dealer but not be 3rd party repair.
But there ad's to stop this say people can tack you and rape you if anyone can get the tools.
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What?
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Drunk after a party.
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The auto industry ran actual ads that said that if the right to repair law passed, sexual predators would have an easier time stalking their victims.
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Clear that up... it's "pillaged" when it's money not sex.
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The auto industry has argued making such tools more widely available could come with cybersecurity and vehicle safety risks
Yes, they have already made the case that having the right to repair will probably lead to people getting stalked and raped. Interesting logic.
Somehow I think they are just making excuses though.
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I read multiple times that in some E.U. countries there are actually laws that require that car manufacturers not allow consumers to simply alter the software on their cars for traffic safety reasons, — the logic being that the altered car has not been approved yet as road-safe, as any car must.
The interesting consequence is that the software thus is forced to use many components in an outdated version from before GPLv3, as GPLv3 explicitly forbids this, as it is “tivoization", even if required
Re: Then take the "cyber" garbage OUT! (Score:1)
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In Europe (via the EOBD interface) or the US (via OBD2 interface), essentially identical in protocol, the _basic_ (i.e. generic) error codes are indeed standardised, and must be made available to the consumer (or indy repairer). The OEM however is free to add additional OEM-specific codes (and they do!) and while information can often be found on the internet for those codes, they're not part of the standard.
In Massachusetts, the 2012 Right-to-Repair initiative extended that s
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Oh bullshit. Cars are still largely mechanical and you or independent garages can do tons of work yourself. I had no problems doing work on my E class Mercedes. Even replacing the air shocks was no big deal. Hell people are out there hacking on wrecked exotics like Lamborghinis. Stop being an old fart and learn something new.
Re: Then take the "cyber" garbage OUT! (Score:4, Informative)
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hmmm... (Score:2, Interesting)
Back in my day we had carburetors not computers... No chip delays to get a car either... ahh the good old days...
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A few of my vehicles still do... and not a single one of them has any built-in cell modem.
I just bought a new-to-us vehicle, and specifically went with a 2014 to avoid the crap Honda added to that model beginning in 2016. (I would have also bought a 2015 model, but couldn't find what I was looking for within any sort of reasonable distance).
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And you measured mileage in telephone poles per gallon.
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...and polluted, and were generally unsafe, and were in need of very regular maintenance and repair. Sure, they _could_ be repaired (in contrast to current vehicles), but they often _needed_ repair.
I've rebuilt one than one classic Mustang (had a '72 and a '69 as daily drivers) but they are called a hobby for a reason. They require constant attention.
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I don't know about you, but my 21st century car still needs regular maintenance and repair.
Yes, but does it need an oil change every three months? Plugs every year? Points? Carb adjusted when "it doesn't feel right"? Choke? Flush the cooling system? Replace the brake shoes (pad last far longer and stop better). Flushed the brake fluid? Replaced the automatic transmission fluid? Set the valve lash? Set the timing? Even fuel and air filters last longer today.
Everything that I've mentioned was maintenance - not repair. But repairs have gone down dramatically too. When was the last time that you repl
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In Europe the most fuel efficient car you can get is the Citroën C2V, which launched in 1948. Mainly because it weighs 600kg, whereas the modern equivalent, the Citroën C1 is 800kg.
Re: hmmm... (Score:2)
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Bull, aside from the roll cage all the safety stuff masses very little compared to the mass of the rest of the car.
On the other hand, the trend to larger cars with more powerful engines (especially bad in the US, but common worldwide) can't avoid adding a lot of weight. Just look at a side-by-side comparison of the Mini Cooper, a car still known for it's small size. https://diminishedvalueofgeorg... [diminished...eorgia.com]
Roughly 20% longer and wider, and about 5% taller. That's over 50% greater volume, while the mass increased
Re: hmmm... (Score:2)
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Good point - crumple zones are another structural safety feature that (potentially) adds real mass as well, and is a contributing factor to vehicles becoming larger.
My point was mainly that all the stuff you actually mentioned amounts to little more than a rounding error, and that the trend toward much larger vehicles is responsible for *far* more mass increase than all of them combined.
So caring... (Score:2)
So caring these automakers. They (FORD) even sell hot tunes for their cars so tampering with the ecu is totally fine if you pay them. And its not about emissions after many of their tunes were found to be illegal and they had to pull many back via EPA.
Fraud fraud fraud.
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...
Why is the manufacturer's freedom violated by the people — voters — who have nothing to do with it?
For the same reason the manufacturer is forbidden to put bombs in the cars.
Because we, the people, say so.
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Because the people voted.
You lost.
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You’re going to shit yourself when you hear about VIN Wiki. https://vinwiki.com/ [vinwiki.com]
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The very instant laws went in to effect opening access to codes from the OBD port, auto makers started moving access to the codes to the telematics system. The new law was passed to close the loophole.
This new law is a direct consequence of the auto makers bad behavior trampling the spirit of recently passed right to repair laws.
BTW, the bad guys probably already have access to the GPS coordinates etc. It's the legitimate repair people and actual owners of the cars that are shut out.
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Can "the people" vote to kill someone? Ok, that's extreme, how about confiscating property? What's to stop that kind of "democracy"?
someone else ends up paying for your strings! (Score:3)
Why can't I attach any strings I want to a sale or warranty contract? Why is my freedom to do so not protected?
You remain free to not buy whatever it is, that has the conditions you find overly onerous — no one is taking that from you. Why is the manufacturer's freedom violated by the people — voters — who have nothing to do with it?
Any conditions you want? OK, how about if the customer doesn't pay in time, the finance department can seize their kidneys. How about that?
We set basic regulations around safety and I would argue that right to repair is an important one. For example, disposable devices. When a phone manufacturer makes it impossible to replace components that are known to have a short lifespan like batteries, it ensures that consumers buy a lot more phones and a lot more old phones end up in landfills.
While it's
Yeah, that's what the term means. (Score:2)
Which isn't to say that there aren't good arguments for limiting the provisions that can be attached to a contract. If someone wants to put their kidney up as collateral, maybe that's okay. What couldn't be okay would be for every lender to attach that to every loan or finance
Re: Yeah, that's what the term means. (Score:2)
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while in principle I agree, in practice humans have proven to be easily exploitable.
Our main problem lies in our adrenal response. We are rational human beings until literally our emotions get the better of us. Once our stress response kicks in our rational processes stop and our fight-or-flight instinct takes over, our brain believes our stress is due to a life threating situation, and the mechanisms for our preservation kick in automatically and it's worked since the first animals some millions of years a
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You can fiddle around on the margins to account for the fact that people aren't always rational, but the core assumpti
Re:Whose freedom is it anyway? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because your right to swing your fist ends at my nose.
Or we could go with truth in advertising and require that any car that does not support right to repair shall be marketed as disposable.
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This case is classic. All car manufactures collectively decided that only they could be able to access the hidden magic information, locking out consumers and 3rd party repair firms. That means no competition and a closed market, which leads to higher prices. In theory, capitalism provides economic efficiency via competition. Without a competitive marketplace capitalism inevitably results in high prices and poor products. Even conservative economists recognize this situatio
Benz (Score:5, Interesting)
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I have a 35-year-old Mercedes. A new headlight can be bought in any parts store. You can replace it yourself.... if you have a screwdriver.
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Mercedes is starting to disco some parts for some classics though. Just try getting a proper lock set for a W126.
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Ignition tumblers with keys are cheap. Not sure about doors - mine have been converted to remote locking. Most typical replacement parts are plentiful, but some more obscure ones are no longer available. People are starting to 3-D print some parts
The result is that my car is now worth more than a Mercedes half its age.
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Door locks are easy. Cars, despite their price, are protected by extremely weak locks known as wafer locks. They are technologically as advanced as the lock on your desk, and considered a step down in security from the standard pin-tumbler lock design you have on your front door.
The ignition lock is the most sophisticated of wafer locks, while the doors implement a subset of the wafers. This is why your car key may be able to open a startlingly large number of similar vehicles from the same manufacturer. We
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Mercedes is starting to disco some parts for some classics though. Just try getting a proper lock set for a W126.
laughs in UniMog
Re:Benz (Score:4, Informative)
VW has to "pair" the battery with the car. You can't replace your own battery any more.
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Can you give some more info? I've never heard of this.
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or is that all config is lost after an battery swap and that is an dealer only re-config service?
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I don't remember. I think it's pairing with the ECU, and there some configuration (I think it might be a "smart battery").
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Here's some more info...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Mecha... [reddit.com]
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That may be a legal requirement for safety.
Mercedes has been fitting LED and matrix headlights for a while now. The LED ones are so bright that they have to incorporate auto-levelling, so that when your car is not level the lights dip a bit to avoid blinding on-coming traffic.
The matrix ones require the camera system in the vehicle to be operating and calibrated, and for each individual light to be calibrated too. If you don't know, matrix lights are basically on high beam all the time, but can dim individu
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The light had to be married to the car, so they have to use a specific computer, which communicates to GERMANY, to marry the light module to the car.
Can you give some more details? Extraordinary claims and all that.
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Thank you, that is interesting to know. I'd love to see the beam forming in action. I've been out of the automobile industry for literally two decades.
You know you're in the right when .. (Score:2)
You know a law is spot on when the big companies that would lose a locked revenue channel are screaming that they don't want it to happen.
More time to comply? (Score:2)
supporters of the proposal argue the extra years would give automakers more time to comply with the laws
More time to comply? More like more time to *avoid* complying.
The information is already readily available to brand-partnered mechanics, the law just requires that they make the same information available to independent mechanics. The time needed to comply is whatever it takes to hand a folder to someone.
The *only* benefit of giving them more time is that during the delay they can continue fighting having to every comply at all, while continuing to reap excess profits.
Dinosaur, meet asteroid (Score:2)
One thing in common many industries have is that they're total fucking bullshit. Real estate agents, taxis, and quite obviously cars. The former two raked in fat profits due to information asymmetry: no one had access to the magic 'realtors only' listings of comparable sales, out-of-towners didn't know when they were being taken for a literal ride in NYC.
Cars obviously too had bullshit profits, but that was largely baked into the initial sale... and the internet cut into those ill-gotten gains quite subst
So, massive recalls coming? (Score:2)
Ah, so the manufacturer's have discovered and now admitted that they didn't engineer appropriate security into their systems and instead relied on security through obscurity.
The information they are required to release under this bill is already known to many people -- such as the engineers that built it and perhaps even "authorized" service providers/vendors. These individuals apparent