In Massachusetts Some Car Dealers Have Disabled Telematics System in 'Ugly' Right-to-Repair Dispute (arstechnica.com) 162
"Subaru and Kia dealers in Massachusetts have disabled systems that allow remote starts and send maintenance alerts..." reports Wired.
Subaru buyers in Massachusetts also lose access to the telematics system's app, so "no emergency assistance; no automated messages when the tire pressure was low or the oil needed changing." Subaru disabled the telematics system and associated features on new cars registered in Massachusetts last year as part of a spat over a right-to-repair ballot measure approved, overwhelmingly, by the state's voters in 2020. The measure, which has been held up in the courts, required automakers to give car owners and independent mechanics more access to data about the car's internal systems. But the "open data platform" envisioned by the law doesn't exist yet, and automakers have filed suit to prevent the initiative from taking effect. So first Subaru and then Kia turned off their telematics systems on their newest cars in Massachusetts.... "This was not to comply with the law — compliance with the law at this time is impossible — but rather to avoid violating it," Dominick Infante, a spokesperson for Subaru, wrote in a statement. Kia did not respond to a request for comment.
The dispute is the latest chapter in long-running disagreements between the state and automakers over the right to repair, or consumers' ability to fix their own cars or control who does it for them.... [N]ew vehicles are now computers on wheels, gathering an estimated 25 gigabytes per hour of driving data — the equivalent of five HD movies. Automakers say that lots of this information isn't useful to them and is discarded. But some — a vehicle's location, how specific components are operating at a given moment — is anonymized and sent to the manufacturers.... These days, much of the data is transmitted wirelessly. So independent mechanics and right-to-repair proponents worry that automakers will stop sending vital repair information to the diagnostic ports. That would hamper the independents and lock customers into relationships with dealerships....
Automakers say opening the car's mechanical data to anyone would be dangerous — and a violation of federal law. In November 2020, just after voters approved the ballot measure, a trade group that represents most major automakers sued Massachusetts in federal court. The group, the Alliance for Automotive Innovation, argued that the federal government, not states, should control who gets access to cars' telematics systems. The group also said that it would be irresponsible and dangerous to create the open data platform that the law required, especially by 2022....
Dealerships are caught in the middle. It's an especially unfortunate time to be there, given the chip shortage that has curtailed vehicle production — and sales.
One dealer reportedly even asked a potential car buyer, "Don't you have any friends in Rhode Island whose address you can use?"
Subaru buyers in Massachusetts also lose access to the telematics system's app, so "no emergency assistance; no automated messages when the tire pressure was low or the oil needed changing." Subaru disabled the telematics system and associated features on new cars registered in Massachusetts last year as part of a spat over a right-to-repair ballot measure approved, overwhelmingly, by the state's voters in 2020. The measure, which has been held up in the courts, required automakers to give car owners and independent mechanics more access to data about the car's internal systems. But the "open data platform" envisioned by the law doesn't exist yet, and automakers have filed suit to prevent the initiative from taking effect. So first Subaru and then Kia turned off their telematics systems on their newest cars in Massachusetts.... "This was not to comply with the law — compliance with the law at this time is impossible — but rather to avoid violating it," Dominick Infante, a spokesperson for Subaru, wrote in a statement. Kia did not respond to a request for comment.
The dispute is the latest chapter in long-running disagreements between the state and automakers over the right to repair, or consumers' ability to fix their own cars or control who does it for them.... [N]ew vehicles are now computers on wheels, gathering an estimated 25 gigabytes per hour of driving data — the equivalent of five HD movies. Automakers say that lots of this information isn't useful to them and is discarded. But some — a vehicle's location, how specific components are operating at a given moment — is anonymized and sent to the manufacturers.... These days, much of the data is transmitted wirelessly. So independent mechanics and right-to-repair proponents worry that automakers will stop sending vital repair information to the diagnostic ports. That would hamper the independents and lock customers into relationships with dealerships....
Automakers say opening the car's mechanical data to anyone would be dangerous — and a violation of federal law. In November 2020, just after voters approved the ballot measure, a trade group that represents most major automakers sued Massachusetts in federal court. The group, the Alliance for Automotive Innovation, argued that the federal government, not states, should control who gets access to cars' telematics systems. The group also said that it would be irresponsible and dangerous to create the open data platform that the law required, especially by 2022....
Dealerships are caught in the middle. It's an especially unfortunate time to be there, given the chip shortage that has curtailed vehicle production — and sales.
One dealer reportedly even asked a potential car buyer, "Don't you have any friends in Rhode Island whose address you can use?"
False advertising? (Score:5, Interesting)
If these features are advertised as part of the vehicles, then disabling these features opens the dealers to a lawsuit.
Perhaps more to the point: The manufacturer *could* just abide by the law. The information exists, obviously, so why should there be any problem handing it to the owners? Oh, right, then the dealers lose the exclusive capability to carry out repairs... /s
Re:False advertising? (Score:5, Informative)
To your first point - manufacturers have been disabling features all the time (which are advertised as standard) due to "chip shortages" and have not turned them back on. GM cars were shipping without butt warmers (heated seats) for a time but all their literature said they had them.
As for your second point. Yes - manufacturers could open up and say what they are collecting (they don't want to as many people would freak), and expose how bad their security it (again more people would freak). It is totally best to live in the security through obscurity mindset. /s
Re: False advertising? (Score:5, Interesting)
Translation: "Our only security is through obscurity, and if you take that away, there won't be any security at all!"
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Or are they going for the old "third party repairs might be dangerous, so we banned them" line?
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Are you going to waive mfr liability because some 3rd party screwed up?
And even if you do, that doesn't waive it for anyone you cream.
These are complicated systems and exposing interfaces assumes features are well done. If it has problems, keeping it internal causes no issues, but letting 3rd parties rely on it? More mansions for lawyers.
Re: False advertising? (Score:2)
Re: False advertising? (Score:2)
That also depends on year too.
My 2016 jeep 1018 kia and 2021 ford all show per tire.
Sometimes the older cars just didnt have the UI built to show that information.
The realquestion is with all the screens why cant they have a screen showing obd data errors(lights and codes to go sort out)
Would solve a lot of secondary issues.
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The dealers argue that allowing just anyone to talk to the systems as they exist in the cars on the road right now could lead to people (intentionally or unintentionally) messing with the cars in ways that make them unsafe (e.g. messing with all the driver-assist technology or drive-by-wire stuff).
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Or... it could allow people to make them safer. Just like letting your mechanic mess with the brakes could screw them up... or could make them better.
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While I doubt the manufacturers are making anything approaching an honest effort to rectify the problem, there is a *huge* difference between 'handing the information to the owners' and 'handing the information to the owners in a manner consistent with the new law', let alone doing either in such a way that won't open up gaping security holes. This sort of thing is why adding ridiculous bells and wh
Re: False advertising? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Put owners in the loop of updates (Score:2)
If I had to provide a keyfob for car systems to update an open system is hardly dangerous. Less so than the security by obscurity measures in use now, a dealer can become a criminal asset very easily.
Buy different car then (Score:5, Interesting)
Do not buy from those assholes then. No Subara, no Kia, and not Tesla. Let them rot in hell.
Cars should be repairable, and if they protest too much, something is wrong with their product.
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Re: Buy different car then (Score:2)
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Nobody who cares is buying a Subaru anyway since they caught the CVT disease.
Re:Buy different car then (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Buy different car then (Score:5, Informative)
Um, Tesla is among the automakers that didn't do this.
It's actually quite easy [youtube.com] to collect an insane amount of data from Teslas, just through an OBD-II port.
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Didn't do what? Certainly Teslas are the most annoying car on the planet to repair.
Re:Buy different car then (Score:5, Informative)
Tesla didn't disable telematics or take measures to prevent access to the on-board diagnostic information in the car. I believe that's what they are referring to (actually, quite the opposite, Tesla makes that information easy to get and highly detailed).
There's nothing particularly annoying about Tesla repair. The only issue per se is that parts are in general in short supply, and the high-voltage battery requires special skills and tools to service. However, servicing the battery is only apt to happen on a handful of cars until they start reaching 250K - 350K miles or so.
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Didn't do what? Certainly Teslas are the most annoying car on the planet to repair.
I know right, my workshop spent like an hour looking for the oil dipstick.
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Yes, repairing a Tesla is very different from repairing most other cars, but mostly because the issues that arise are unique to Tesla, so local garages don't have the experience. You can take them to The Electrified Garage if you want a third-party repair, so Tesla isn't blocking independent shops.
I recently had a door handle fail on my Model S (it retracts into the door, so when it fails, you can't open the door from outside). I had a mobile service appointment yesterday, and a Tesla technician came to m
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You may be able to get an insane amount of data out of the OBD-II port but can you get the necessary information on how to repair problems that arise? If you have to take your Tesla to a Tesla owned repair depot instead of any neighborhood garage (due to special parts/software that only Tesla has) then the amount of data coming out the OBD-II doesn't really matter.
Re: Buy different car then (Score:2)
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"People's car" as in "people's democratic republic." The name was originally thought up by Adolf Hitler, as the Beetle was originally a Nazi project.
If you need an app... (Score:5, Insightful)
... to tell you when the tyre pressures are low or its time to change the oil then frankly you shouldn't be in charge of a 2 ton vehicle, you should take the bus because god knows what other safety related issues have been ignored by the owner. And no, you can't always rely on mechanics to spot these things especially if they're indies who don't have full access to diagnostics thanks to manufacturers being arseholes.
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Blaming people for being human and not behaving perfectly all the time isn't a very good solution from an engineering standpoint. Tyre pressure sensors are cheap and reliable.
Manufacturers like them too because they encourage regular maintenance and prevent warranty issues where the owner ignored warnings for months until something broke.
As long as everything is repairable, sensors are a reasonable solution to these somewhat common problems.
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Tire pressure sensors make valve stems expensive on many models. And they aren't always reliable, either.
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And due to the vendor lock in on programming tools - when i have one go bad (as i do now), it would cost me 500$ to get it replaced and reprogram the ECU to use the ID of the new unit.. Because only the dealer has the tool, and they refuse to use customer provided parts.
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Very this. I can see the utility of such sensors, but having them ID-tied to the vehicle makes no obvious sense other than to create vendor lock-in.
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Yes, the transmissions are wireless, so the car needs to screen out the occasional transmission it gets from a tire on the car in the next lane. It should still be straightforward to program in a new ID for a given wheel, though.
Re: If you need an app... (Score:5, Insightful)
We all know what it does and "why" you have to sync/program the ECU for the broadcast ID's to watch for. But with the TPMS being the dominant design for a Federally mandated requirement, its complete BS that some vendors require a dealer only tool to change those IDs. It hooks up through the ODB2 port, talks on the CAN bus, but has encrypted keys for validating the tool before the ECU will accept reprogram. Adding that in there is not "protecting" the end users, its "protecting" vendor lock-in and dealer revenue. Its EXACTLY what the right to repair laws are intended to prevent.
Re:If you need an app... (Score:5, Informative)
Name a mass market car (no Ferraris or Koenigseggs) more than 5 years old (typical warranty period) for which you can't program in new TPMS sensors with a third party device produced by reverse engineering. By the time the warranty is out there is pretty much always some solution cheap by the standards of the day. For VWs there's Ross-Tech. For Fords there's ForSCAN and a hacked cheapo cable (switch added to change what one pin is hooked to.) For MBZs there's Autel or iCarSoft, unless you need to clone a key and then it's ZedBull. And so on.
It's stupid and offensive that special scanners are required, when we have standards that the manufacturers could be following if only they weren't hostile to customers and to third party repair shops which are absolutely needed to handle the overall service demand. But it's also not true that you have to have the dealer scan tool for most service. Only the most esoteric actions require it, like for example adding cruise control to a Mercedes that didn't come with it. THAT requires the dealer scan tool, you can't do it with any third party tool... yet. But TPMS, or SRS, or even ESP sensor training (like resetting the steering angle sensor) ... that kind of stuff can generally always be done in pretty short order.
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Tire pressure sensors make valve stems expensive on many models. And they aren't always reliable, either.
My TPMS cost around ~20 for all 4 tires. I jut have to attached it to the outside of the valve stem. It's also universal so no vender lock in.
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Sure if you go 3rd party but many people are understandably annoyed when built in features on what is usually the 2nd most expensive object many people buy doesnt work. In the case of my wifes care one of the TPMS sensors is out and now there is a nag warning and a yellow indicator light on all the time which is irritating. Normal OBD2 systems can't disable it, I even have access to a $2000 Autel scanner and it can only program not disable the error.
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Woosh, joke right over my head.
My 05' Tacoma also lacks TPMS, funnily enough missed having it by nature of it being manufactured in first half of the production year. It was required to be installed in any manufactuered in the second half.
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Tire pressure sensors make valve stems expensive on many models. And they aren't always reliable, either.
My TPMS cost around ~20 for all 4 tires. I jut have to attached it to the outside of the valve stem. It's also universal so no vender lock in.
Ironically enough it sounds like it's also universal for thieves. No lock in. At all.
Naw, I carry it in the glove box when not in use. It's called a tire gauge. Has a little dial indicator that reads pressure as well as valve to le out air if needed.
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So it isn't a TPMS it is just a TPM?
8^)
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My 2016 Skoda just uses the ABS sensors to count the rotations of the wheels.
When one (or more) is different to the others, some tyres are flat, so it suggests I check ALL of them, usually a good idea anyway.
No fancy pressure sensors required, just count the rotations of the wheels - which is what ABS does already. All the hardware is already present, just a few lines of code and they can sell it as a feature.
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I've seen people driving around with almost flats. They didn't need a monitor to tell them to go pump the damn thing up not only for their sake but if they have a blowout at high speed they could end up killling others.
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I've seen people driving around with almost flats. They didn't need a monitor to tell them to go pump the damn thing up not only for their sake but if they have a blowout at high speed they could end up killling others.
You're right. You only need common sense for that. Kind of tells you what we're lacking behind the wheel these days. It's not just the air that's low.
Manufacturers don't care because they know that making things "idiot-proof" is a never-ending profit stream; society always manages to respond in kind by building a better idiot.
Re: If you need an app... (Score:2)
Yeah...hey are so cheap and so reliable, that I've been driving around with the stupid TPMS light on for years, even though the pressure in my tires is correct, rather than paying be $500 or so required to fix the problem.
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For real, also even most people who are handy with maintaining their cars may not have the tools or wherewithal to unbead a tire and install a new sensor, especially on low profile tires that are near impossible to remove without a machine.
Re: If you need an app... (Score:3)
Yeah. This particular car, I personally have replaced brakes, rotors, calipers, control arms, tie rod ends, etc.
If the stupid fucking TPMS sensors were so god damned cheap and easy to replace and program, I wouldn't have to look at that stupid fucking light every day.
The only reason to actually fix the TPMS is to make the light turn off. It's retarded.
Re: If you need an app... (Score:2)
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I would argue that $99 for one tire sensor is also not cheap though. Maybe (maybe) $99 for a full set of sensors could be considered cheap but I guess "cheap" is a relative and subjective term anyway.
Re: If you need an app... (Score:2)
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Tyre pressure sensors are cheap and reliable.
You can get better metrics on tire state from ABS and traction control with algorithms to report not only low pressure but other unsafe conditions like unmatched tires/tread. The only reason TPMS exists is industry lobbying for government mandates to make money.
Lack of standardization, units with non-replaceable batteries and material and labor cost per tire in the hundreds of dollars is not my idea of cheap and reliable.
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what other safety related issues have been ignored by the owner.
Who said ignored. Who said need an app? These are value added features and you are postulating that just because someone uses them means they ignore dashboard warning lights? Don't be stupid.
As for safety issues, that's a mechanics job. It's literally why we have safety inspections on cars. If you produce a product that is used daily by the unwashed masses that requires the owner to manage its safety aspects then you have failed, and that failure is precisely why mandatory safety inspections were introduced
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Well, not all states require car inspections at all.
Indeed, and that is a problem with those states. My point is that for something as ubiquitous as a car it is totally unreasonable to expect the end user to manage the safety of it.
Shit it's clear enough that we can't even expect the end user to drive without being completely intoxicated, drowsy, or just a dumbfuck who shouldn't have a license in the first place. Anything more than understanding that the check engine lights means "get help" isn't a viable solution.
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My last two cars tell me when a "service" is due, and when is overdue. So I haven't had a need to remember to change oil in almost 14 years.
Considering how much I use the car, it was the "every year, before inspection time". I also had the "Christmas" period of "national and highway tax" and "car insurance".
As for the tire pressure, I had "low pressure" warnings for minus 0.3 atm (which is not always visible on the tire) but I saw a flat tire event before starting (a wood screw). On the other hand, the "cou
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My car does that too. It's called the odometer. I look at the odometer, and I look at the little sticker on the windscreen, and voila! If one is bigger than the other, time to go in for service! The wonders of this high tech age we live in.
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Stickers that stay an entire year on the inside of the windscreen are wondrous indeed ;)
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The little sticker on the windshield tells you to get your oil changed at an interval that is most profitable for the shop, not what is correct for the car.
My car has a 20k mile/2 year manufacturer recommended oil change interval, and an oil quality monitor to let me know if it needs to be changed sooner. The local dealer (I only went there because I had a coupon that made the oil change cheaper than doing it myself) stuck a 5k mile/6 month sticker on the windshield (which I immediately peeled off, both be
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Correct, and this mirrors computer usage. If you do not know how to secure your computer, you should not own one.
This follows the trend of people wanting to live in "Walled Gardens", the auto industry sees the money Apple and Microsoft is raking in and wants a piece of the "wall". I am sure one day every auto will be subscription based, except for the fact you will be paying much more than you send to Apple or M/S.
The last brand new car I bought in 1998, and a computer went that would cause a lot to repai
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... to tell you when the tyre pressures are low or its time to change the oil then frankly you shouldn't be in charge of a 2 ton vehicle, you should take the bus because god knows what other safety related issues have been ignored by the owner.
Couldn't agree more, but just remember; this is the generation that is practically welcoming the concept of You Will Own Nothing, And Be Happy.
20 years from now the only thing we'll be arguing about, are the colluding monopolies who own and maintain all cars (they'll abuse your primary concern to make ownership illegal).
We'll also be complaining about how bad both the app and the car spies on you, but hell we can do that today, and don't.
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... to tell you when the tyre pressures are low or its time to change the oil then frankly you shouldn't be in charge of a 2 ton vehicle, you should take the bus because god knows what other safety related issues have been ignored by the owner. And no, you can't always rely on mechanics to spot these things especially if they're indies who don't have full access to diagnostics thanks to manufacturers being arseholes.
Sometimes I wonder if our Slashdot compadres ever had a vehicle. Your issue of tire pressure is one example. Temperature variations can cause pressure drops, it's really nice to have that reminder. My pressure sensors have been great also - they can warn you of a problem long before you can feel it. When you can feel it you are dangerously close to damaging the tire through overheating and sidewall rub.
The oil change announcements are there as a helpful way to avoid voiding your warranty. So many people b
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"One of my favorite parts of my new car is that I get numerical readout of Engine oil pressure and temperature, transmission temperature. Coolant temperature numerical. individual tire pressures. "
Back in the day - up until mid 80s IME - most cars had numerous gauges other than fuel and temp telling you useful info such as oil pressure, voltage , turbo boost. Then they all vanished due to cost reasons to be replaced by a warning light which tend to come on when its already too late. Only in the last 15 year
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Dipsticks are for irresponsible pussies too. Real men just know.
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So you expect the car owner to be more aware of safety related issues than a mechanic would be? Sure the owner could probably check their own tire pressure and keep track of when the oil needs changing. Even if they do this though how does it make them more aware of safety related issues than a mechanic who doesn't have access to diagnostic equipment?
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Pricks like you are the ones doing 70mph with an almost flat just waiting to lose control or have a blowout because you need to be spoon fed information rather than using your fucking eyes and brain. Go look at all the crash videos on youtube - you might be one of them one day. .
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Where did I say either/or? Use both you prick. You can't always rely on the tech.
Christ, and people like you have a driving license. God help us.
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Few decades earlier "if you don't know how to turn a crank to start an engine you shouldn't be driving a car" "if you don't know how to properly brake in snow and need an ABS you shouldn't be driving a 2 ton vehicle" and so on. Thank goodness people like you were (and are) ignored.
Properly braking in winter is substantially more effective than ABS. This fact has been repeatedly borne out in real world testing.
I've had to pop the e-brake myself a few times on account of ABS deciding to do nothing when pushing the brake pedal. Somehow e-brake always managed to stop the car right away. Imagine that. ABS is fine most of the time except for random corner cases where it matters most in shitty winter conditions.
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Master! I bow down to your knowledge! Please oh please teach me how to apply a different torque to each wheel based on individual traction using only one pedal! As you obviously must be doing to seriously claim to be better than ABS!
LOL part of the issue with ABS is that it doesn't do this. It slips all wheels because it can't control wheels individually. One of the well known corner cases where ABS fails is traction on one side of the vehicle and no traction on the other.
What? (Score:3)
Do, say, Ford get to have a map of the world with a blinking dot showing the current position of every car that they have sold these days? Is this really a thing?
Re:What? (Score:5, Informative)
Do, say, Ford get to have a map of the world with a blinking dot showing the current position of every car that they have sold these days? Is this really a thing?
If they wanted to or at least that's the case for Land Rover, but I'm sure all are the same.
Scroll down to the 'How technology caught a killer' section of this article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-... [bbc.co.uk]
Not only was it sending his position but even logged when the boot was opened to get the crossbow out/put it back, providing a perfect timeline of the cars use in the murder.
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Not only was it sending his position but even logged when the boot was opened to get the crossbow out/put it back, providing a perfect timeline of the cars use in the murder.
I remember this case and wondering why Land Rover needed all these detail - like when the doors were opened and closed - in the first place. Presumably they didn't install the feature in order to catch murderers.
Another mystery (at least to me) is who is paying the mobile phone companies to transfer all this data. I'm sure the total cost, even for all the recent Land Rovers in the UK, isn't very much for a car manufacturer to bear, but do they really intend to keep paying this charge for cars they sold
Re:What? (Score:5, Informative)
What they get out of the data, is very accurate statistical info on how and where their cars are used. This allows them to:
1) Analyze (and after some time also predict) frequent failures. This enables them to react appropriately, either by performing preventive recall actions before the issue explodes into a PR disaster, or by taking corrective action for future cars of the same model or even future designs;
2) Figure out what parts of their car designs are over-engineered. If something is designed to last 50K operations, but in reality is only used 15K times over the lifetime of 80% of their cars, then that something can be redesigned to be much cheaper in future models. This has been one of the biggest impacts of telematics on the car industry, because in earlier days a lot of guesswork was involved and a lot of it turned out to be wrong.
The latter of the two is the financially biggest technical/internal incentive for the OEMS to pay for the data transfers.
As a side effect, they may be able to make money using the data via other routes. One way would be by enabling "location based services" (read as: hidden advertisements) provided by partner companies, but this is a touchy topic, as premium car OEMs are very brand image sensitive and don't want to be caught selling user data the way some other companies openly do nowadays. Next, there are opportunities for cooperating with, for instance, insurance companies. Those can make a better profit if they have better statistical knowledge about what tends to happen to cars of model X (or even color Y), even without detailed info on who owns one of those. Many more possibilities exist...
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You can get a pair of decent wire cutters off Amazon for a few bucks.
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At least in VAG (VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda) cars the telematics module is a separate entity, sometimes even quite visible. You can quite easily unplug the antenna.
If you don't want to get hands dirty, you can program individual modules via the OBD port. I used ObdEleven software to disable the GPS and only that since I damn well do remember where I've parked my car but I still want to remotely start up AC/heating when I'm about to get on the road.
Re:What? (Score:5, Informative)
They all have.
It's even advertised as a feature nowadays... "Locate my car via a web page" is an actual service of my 2019 car.
My 2017 one (that got involved in an accident) also had it, which is why until 1 year ago I knew where it got stored and still was after the accident. I hadn't bothered to inform the dealership that I no longer had that car (legally speaking it was not mine anyway, as it was leased). Later on, on purpose, I didn't react when the manufacturer started sending me messages that the battery was very very low. I wanted to see what would happen and how long it would take before they'd figure it out. Almost 4 years, it turned out.
My 2012 car doesn't have this as a user accessible feature, but very likely does have it towards the manufacturer. I know, because I actually worked on automotive telematics devices for many many years. In around 2010 (or thereabout) I was at a technical project meeting where a major German car brand simply admitted "under implied NDA" to having all that data for all their recent cars. These days, they are also open about it being a "feature", but 95% of the public doesn't get or understand the full implications.
Of course, the OEM doesn't know who actually uses the car on any given day. Also, if it gets sold on second hand or third hand, they start losing track of who owns it in case the new owner doesn't "register" it at an official dealership. But still...
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Re: What? (Score:2)
Voters got what they wanted, no? (Score:4, Insightful)
"These days, much of the data is transmitted wirelessly. So independent mechanics and right-to-repair proponents worry that automakers will stop sending vital repair information to the diagnostic ports."
Ok, so disabling wirelessly sent data makes sure the data has to be sent to the diagnostics ports, therefore customers can go an independent shop to find out about any repair information. That is what voters voted for, no? Then why all the upset? Is it the minority of customers who would prefer the manufacturer receive that data wirelessly and notify them when the car needs service who are now upset that the democracy they live in made the new features illegal?
I get that technically they voted that wireless data could be legal if made completely open, but that does not exist for these manufactures, and is perhaps not free to develop, secure, deploy, and maintain, so the manufacturer chose to not do it for now in order to keep the vehicle price down. Maybe the voters should vote for the government to pay to develop this open platform, integrate it with all the manufacturers, secure it, maintain it, including taking on all support and breach liability - add that cost to the annual registration, see if the voters still vote for it. Until then, you get what you vote for - back to the old ways of doing things - diagnostics ports will tell your local mechanic what you want to know. So rejoice and book your recurring appointment with your favorite mechanic to check on the health of your car.
As a side note, the way this will likely end is the manufacturers will figure out what it costs to develop, secure, and maintain such an open platform, then sell it as a vehicle option to those customers who are willing to pay for it. If not enough people pay for the "open wireless telemetry collection" option though, it will be discontinued a money loser.
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I doubt that. Every marketdroid and MBA-infected exec believes that personal information is more valuable than the actual product that produces it.
I fail to see the problem (Score:2)
"no emergency assistance; no automated messages when the tire pressure was low or the oil needed changing."
Aside from emergency assistance (and how often is this even needed?), this is basic car maintenance which can be done by the owner. No need to harass them with messages.
Since these are now disabled, reduce the cost of the vehicle accordingly for buyers and refund money to those who already bought these vehicles if this has been disabled. Problem solved.
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Why would you ever need to know that the tire pressure is low when you're away from your car?
So that you know you're going to have to fill your tire ahead of time, and don't wind up having to change your plans due to need to go to a filling station (or if the tire is completely flat, to call a tow truck.)
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You mean people can't take a look at their tires to see if they look physically low on air or, an even better idea, go out once a month and check their pressure? That they're too lazy to do this bare minimum of maintenance?
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Come on, are you that stuck in your old ways that having an indicator for a tire pressure is considered "lazy"? Are you mad about people that have indicators for gas/oil/wiper fluid as well? Maybe you like fumbling around with pressure gauges and caps in the cold before each trip, I prefer to have it available on the dashboard.
The tire pressure would still be available in the car by the way, it just wouldn't be sent to the user in an email or whatever
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Why would you ever need to know that the tire pressure is low when you're away from your car? Tire pressure often falls due to changes in temperature, and that can happen in the middle of the night. Why would I want to be alerted in the middle of the night to fill my tires with air? An indicator on the dash is enough for that.
If the tire becomes significantly under-inflated because it got cooler overnight, it was probably under-inflated to begin with.
It would actually be nice to quickly check that everything is in order before you set out for the trip though. Like you're having breakfast, have a quick glance and notice that one tire pressure is low and you need some washer fluid. So you'll know to leave 5 minutes earlier to stop at the gas station.
It happened to me that I went to my car in the morning but the battery was flat. O
Not much of value.. (Score:3)
"no emergency assistance; no automated messages when the tire pressure was low or the oil needed changing."
On 'emergency assistance', if this is 'summon roadside assistance from app', no huge deal, I still have a phone. If it's "airbag deployed", well Ford's solution is for the car to dial 911, which I would prefer. For the other stuff, the car surely tells me on the dashboard. I don't need to urgently know those things before actually looking at the instrument panel.
One thing I could see as being missed that would be inherently remote friendly would be ability to cool/heat the car before leaving your desk at work. Of course, even then it would be feasible to have phone and car speak directly, though it might fail if the car experiences an address change without some stable intermediary.
Massachusetts may be too small for the vendors to care enough to amend their ways to a better one. If California hopped on board, suddenly they find it in themselves to develop an IATF standard to cover this stuff.
They played their hand. (Score:2)
They don't want the data to lead to recalls (Score:2)
Pretty clear to me why they don't want the data out, then researchers could get hard data on badly designed or functioning components and lawyers out for blood would pounce.
Telematics = Car Spyware (Score:2)
Simple Fix.. Do not buy a Subaru! (Score:2)
Right to Repair; Too Little, Too Late (Score:2)
(Stealership) "Ah, so the laws changed, and you're here to purchase the repair guides..."
(You) "Yes, that's correct."
(Stealership) "Alright, here's Volume 1. Let me go get the other three.."
*tosses 785-page book on the counter*
(You) "Fuck me."
(Stealership) "Yeah, they're a little complex these days. Hope you got a Flux Capacitor to work on that timing belt. Now MSRP on these things is normally like $299, but you know..supply chain. Price is $5000. How many sets would you like?"
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The manufacturer is allowed to control the medium at this stage, until the centralized clearinghouse for this data is created. They set the price, but only within reason. They can't charge you more than they charge the dealershit for the same information. The dealers would scream bloody murder if they had to pay thousands for repair manuals. Actual paper manual costs have ranged from about $60 up to roughly $500 for multi-volume sets like those necessary for a Subaru or a Mercedes. A Ford doc set with four
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They can't charge you more than they charge the dealershit for the same information.
I see. And was that part of the mandated legislation, or will we see this regulated about as well as obscene MSRP markups and fuck-you car pricing? Start charging 40% more for gas in your town, and you'll get shut down tomorrow. But since adding 40% to the MSRP appears to be perfectly acceptable for some price gouging reason, I don't have too much faith in this statement.
The dealers would scream bloody murder if they had to pay thousands for repair manuals.
You think the manufacturer gives a shit? Or quite frankly even a dealer GM? This is peanut expenses. They probably spend more than th
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I'd certainly not be terribly uptight about this...I don't see it lasting very terribly wrong.
Well, let's just hope that was a typo, right?
Inflation can be a "once in a lifetime" thing. Then you just get to suck it up because it never really goes away. And raising prices by 15% only to reduce them by 5% a year from now, doesn't result in a Thank You. Greed will abuse COVID to sustain high costs regardless of actual or advertised shortages. We've already seen this as corporations talk about how they're "forced" to raise prices, and then have the gall to announce record profits.
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(Me) - Tossed them a usb thumb drive and tells them to download it to this, or, just send me. a link to the public website where the manuals are published for all to use.
I see a lot of legislation about making data "available". I'd be shocked if that actually results in "for free".
And to touch on my original point, having 2,000 pages of manual at your fingertips, can end up being about as useful to the average car owner as a Bar exam reference manual. Most are written by mechanics, for mechanics. And if everyone was a mechanic, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.
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Most auto repair manuals seem to be written by idiots, for no one. They don't tell you what you actually need to know at any point. I used to have an Audi A8. The factory service manual gave you about half of what you actually needed to know. The rest was in a series of "self study program" documents, which were a) in German only and b) not made available to customers under any terms. (Newer SSPs are translated into multiple languages.) Luckily most VAG SSPs have been leaked and can be found with google, bu
just wait for want to repair need data plan for th (Score:2)
just wait for want to repair need data plan for that car at your own cost (pro tip if near border get Canada and mexco roaming plan)
Auto makers are in for a rough time (Score:2)
This may give traction to the newly-filed Senate bill [jalopnik.com] which puts right-to-repair squarely in the Federal purview.
Manufacturers have bought in 100% on the premise that their customers don't actually buy the product...they only lease it. They (the manufacturers) can't bear to consider that such a premise is inherently both flawed and self-limiting.
customers don't actually buy = landlord do repair (Score:3)
customers don't actually buy = landlord have to do repairs and up keep at there cost.
Necessary Cloud (Score:2)
The very idea that the car can't tell you when a tire is low or the oil needs changing without the cloud is a major red flag.
And the idea that exposing this data would be dangerous is another. Either the manufacturers have major problems with their data and infrastructure, they're bullshitting to try to maintain exclusivity or, most likely, both.
Either way, oh well...guess people will just have to do it the way they always did it before. Not having the reminder for the oil change would be annoying but its
Did this to themselves (Score:3)
"This was not to comply with the law — compliance with the law at this time is impossible — but rather to avoid violating it," Dominick Infante, a spokesperson for Subaru
The corrected phrase is:
"The reason we did this was to not comply with the law -- compliance with the law at this time is impossible because we ignored this legal requirement for over a year knowing this law was passed and the deadline was coming but did nothing to create the documentation legally required --but rather to avoid violating our profit margin ("it")".
This was self-inflicted, and I hope they get hammered by the legal system for non-compliance. And I will be staying far away from buying anything Subaru, for at least the rest of my life. Kia was never an option to me, so they didn't lose a customer, but Subaru used to be on my list.