Is a New Iron Curtain Descending Across Russia's internet? (msn.com) 137
Cogent Communications, one of the world's largest internet intercontinental backbone providers, has cut ties with Russian customers over its invasion of Ukraine. The Verge reports:
In a letter to Russian customers obtained by The Washington Post, Cogent cited "economic sanctions" and "the increasingly uncertain security situation" as the motives behind its total shutdown in the country. Cogent similarly told The Verge that it "terminated its contracts" with Russian customers in compliance with the European Union's move to ban Russian state-backed media outlets.
As Doug Madory, an internet analyst at network tracking company Kentik points out... unplugging Russia from Cogent's global network will likely result in slower connectivity, but won't completely disconnect Russians from the internet... Traffic from Cogent's former customers will instead fall back on other backbone providers in the country, potentially resulting in network congestion. There isn't any indication as to whether other internet backbone providers will also suspend services in Russia.
Digital rights activists have criticized Cogent's decision to disconnect itself from Russia, arguing that it could prevent Russian civilians from accessing credible information about the invasion. "Cutting Russians off from internet access cuts them off from sources of independent news and the ability to organize anti-war protests," Eva Galperin, the director of cybersecurity at the digital rights group Electronic Frontier Foundation, said on Twitter....
Cogent's goal is to prevent the Russian government from using the company's networks for cyberattacks and propaganda, The Post reports.
The Post argues that on a larger scale,"these moves bring Russia closer to the day when its online networks face largely inward, their global connections weakened, if not cut off entirely." "I am very afraid of this," said Mikhail Klimarev, executive director of the Internet Protection Society, which advocates for digital freedoms in Russia. "I would like to convey to people all over the world that if you turn off the Internet in Russia, then this means cutting off 140 million people from at least some truthful information. As long as the Internet exists, people can find out the truth. There will be no Internet — all people in Russia will only listen to propaganda...."
[E]ven two weeks ago, Russia's Internet was comparatively free and integrated into the larger online world, allowing civil society to organize, opposition figures to deliver their messages and ordinary Russians to gain ready access to alternative sources of news in an era when Putin was strangling his nation's free newspapers and broadcast stations.... Patrick Boehler, head of digital strategy at Radio Free Europe, said CrowdTangle data showed that independent news stories in the Russian language worldwide were getting shared many more times on social media than stories from state-run media. He said that once the Kremlin lost control of the narrative, it would have been hard to regain.
Now the last independent journalistic outposts are gone, and the Internet options are increasingly constricted through a combination of forces — all spurred by war in Ukraine but coming from both within and outside Russia.... Government censors also blocked access to the BBC, Voice of America, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and Deutsche Welle, as well as major Ukrainian websites. The BBC, CNN and other international news organizations said they were suspending reporting in Russia because of a new law that could result in 15 years of prison for publishing what government officials deem false news on the war.
Meanwhile, Politico reminds us that even Oracle has shut down its Russian cloud service operations. Laura Manley, the executive director of Harvard University's Shorenstein Center on Media, Politics and Public Policy, said Russia is creating a perfect situation to control its narrative and limit outside coverage of its Ukrainian invasion by Western social media sources. "You have the lack of eyewitness information because you have critical infrastructure being shut off," she said. "So it's sort of a worst case scenario in terms of getting real-time accurate information."
As Doug Madory, an internet analyst at network tracking company Kentik points out... unplugging Russia from Cogent's global network will likely result in slower connectivity, but won't completely disconnect Russians from the internet... Traffic from Cogent's former customers will instead fall back on other backbone providers in the country, potentially resulting in network congestion. There isn't any indication as to whether other internet backbone providers will also suspend services in Russia.
Digital rights activists have criticized Cogent's decision to disconnect itself from Russia, arguing that it could prevent Russian civilians from accessing credible information about the invasion. "Cutting Russians off from internet access cuts them off from sources of independent news and the ability to organize anti-war protests," Eva Galperin, the director of cybersecurity at the digital rights group Electronic Frontier Foundation, said on Twitter....
Cogent's goal is to prevent the Russian government from using the company's networks for cyberattacks and propaganda, The Post reports.
The Post argues that on a larger scale,"these moves bring Russia closer to the day when its online networks face largely inward, their global connections weakened, if not cut off entirely." "I am very afraid of this," said Mikhail Klimarev, executive director of the Internet Protection Society, which advocates for digital freedoms in Russia. "I would like to convey to people all over the world that if you turn off the Internet in Russia, then this means cutting off 140 million people from at least some truthful information. As long as the Internet exists, people can find out the truth. There will be no Internet — all people in Russia will only listen to propaganda...."
[E]ven two weeks ago, Russia's Internet was comparatively free and integrated into the larger online world, allowing civil society to organize, opposition figures to deliver their messages and ordinary Russians to gain ready access to alternative sources of news in an era when Putin was strangling his nation's free newspapers and broadcast stations.... Patrick Boehler, head of digital strategy at Radio Free Europe, said CrowdTangle data showed that independent news stories in the Russian language worldwide were getting shared many more times on social media than stories from state-run media. He said that once the Kremlin lost control of the narrative, it would have been hard to regain.
Now the last independent journalistic outposts are gone, and the Internet options are increasingly constricted through a combination of forces — all spurred by war in Ukraine but coming from both within and outside Russia.... Government censors also blocked access to the BBC, Voice of America, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and Deutsche Welle, as well as major Ukrainian websites. The BBC, CNN and other international news organizations said they were suspending reporting in Russia because of a new law that could result in 15 years of prison for publishing what government officials deem false news on the war.
Meanwhile, Politico reminds us that even Oracle has shut down its Russian cloud service operations. Laura Manley, the executive director of Harvard University's Shorenstein Center on Media, Politics and Public Policy, said Russia is creating a perfect situation to control its narrative and limit outside coverage of its Ukrainian invasion by Western social media sources. "You have the lack of eyewitness information because you have critical infrastructure being shut off," she said. "So it's sort of a worst case scenario in terms of getting real-time accurate information."
A totalitarian dream (Score:2)
Oh this is wonderful! Smart savvy if not genius
" a new law that could result in 15 years of prison for publishing what government officials deem false news on the war"
Re: (Score:2)
Oh this is wonderful! Smart savvy if not genius
" a new law that could result in 15 years of prison for publishing what government officials deem false news on the war"
On the plus side, things like this make it amply clear what the nature of a state is.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Any state that has such laws.
Re: (Score:2)
Different paths to the same destination.
Re: (Score:2)
Ultimately, yes. There are many paths to failure.
Re: (Score:2)
That's an understatement. But I suppose technically this will be the failure of the human race.
Re: A totalitarian dream (Score:2)
this will be the failure of the human race This? The failure of the human race was already ensured by the excessive cosmic radiation in this part of the galaxy.
Re: (Score:2)
Not by the earth being flat? Such superior insight!
Re: (Score:2)
What you call excessive I call a comfortable background radiation.
Re: (Score:2)
They can both exist in the same government, as Russia seems to be proving.
DDOS Svidaniya (Score:2)
Digital rights activists have criticized Cogent's decision to disconnect itself from Russia, arguing that it could prevent Russian civilians from accessing credible information about the invasion.
Soviet -- I mean, Russian -- firewalls, and new laws, are already doing a pretty good job with that.
Government censors also blocked access to the BBC, Voice of America, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and Deutsche Welle, as well as major Ukrainian websites. The BBC, CNN and other international news organizations said they were suspending reporting in Russia because of a new law that could result in 15 years of prison for publishing what government officials deem false news on the war.
Preventing / hindering the Russian government's access to the Internet (and SWIFT) seems like a good idea.
Cogent's goal is to prevent the Russian government from using the company's networks for cyberattacks and propaganda, ...
Duh (Score:3)
Putin has lost it and is now trying violence on all fronts. Of course that includes his own population. What a failure as a "leader".
I agree he's failed to achieve virtually anything (Score:2)
I know you're up ca
Re: (Score:2)
But I think he's still going to take Ukraine.
Unless he drops dead or is deposed before he can finish it that is. So very likely he is going to take the country, yes. The real question is whether he can hold on to it. I would say that is at least questionable long-term. The other real question is how high the price will be for that. It would be nice if there was a steep, personal price for him, but I am not hopeful on that front.
incidentally I know that there are several pro authoritarian people here on this forum who don't even realize that they are in favor of authoritarianism. They're more than happy to give as much power to a single individual as they can as long as it's their guy. I hope that seeing Putin do this gives some or all of them a chance to reflect on that and realize that having that much decision power in the hands of a single person is a terrible idea.
I doubt that. Of course, _their_ guy would _never_ go off the rails like that! And within the very limited time-horizon these
Re: (Score:2)
Ukrainians have been through the whole soviet thing before. I just don't see them giving up, because they know surrender just means tortured/worked/starved to death later. Maybe weeks later, maybe months, maybe years, but they know it is on the horizon.
Re: (Score:2)
The need for Russian gas is much less than people are making it out to be. In particular, Poland was already down to 7.5% or so of its consumption coming from Russian gas, and were already scheduled to phase them out entirely when the contract expires at the end of 2022. Extraction from the Norway Shelf is more than adequate to supply them, Finland, and the Baltic states, all of whom have access to the same Baltic Pipe. Ukraine and Poland share a reasonably long border, so if that can be kept secure, gas ca
Re: (Score:2)
Putin has lost it and is now trying violence on all fronts
Violence against his own people is literally how he came into power. Check out the Moscow apartment bombings.
What does it matter? (Score:5, Informative)
then this means cutting off 140 million people from at least some truthful information
Even when presented with evidence, many Russians say it's a lie [9gag.com], that they only believe what their dictator is telling them. Even when their own children tell them they are being attacked by Russian troops, the parents don't believe them. [bbc.com]
Russians have had open access to the internet for some time now. If all that truthful information hasn't made an impact so far, cutting them off won't make a difference.
Re: (Score:2)
cutting them off won't make a difference.
Yup. "Gee hey, we can't access the rest of the world. Must be because our liberation of Ukraine is a} very popular with the non-Russian world and b} going very well."
Absence of information is information. But if you don't have the attitudinal tools to think about that information, it's useless to you, just like point blank statements currently are.
Re: (Score:2)
They will see that the rest of the world is against russia and wonder why.
Since they have no other sources of information, official state media will tell them that the rest of the world is full of belligerent nazis who hate russia and are trying to mass exterminate the russian people. Given the evidence available to them (ie being cut off from the rest of the world), the government's narrative will appear more plausible - especially in the absense of any evidence to the contrary.
If then some evidence does s
Re: (Score:2)
After their 100 year history of propaganda and hardship through totalitarism they should already have known better.
I fear there is something in the russian mentality, that made them bullying their neigbours for the last 400 years.
I hope this country collapses so hard that it will vanish as a nation.
Re: (Score:2)
They will see that the rest of the world is against russia and wonder why.
does not matter.
what matters is that russia ends up weaker and unable to do this crap again for a long long time.
if we have to pound russian people, so be it.
you know, after the last 2 years, I lost all my sympathy for regular humans. we have too many humans on this planet and about 1/3 of us are vile, no matter what country they are in. in the US, the vile bunch are known as trumpers but this happens all over, as we have seen durin
Re: (Score:2)
They will see that the rest of the world is against russia and wonder why.
Maybe they'll be told it's because we hate their freedom? It's worked on other populations.
Re: (Score:2)
Russians have had open access to the internet for some time now. If all that truthful information hasn't made an impact so far, cutting them off won't make a difference.
Most people prefer to live in their own filter-bubble because it gives them comfort by creating the illusion they know what is going on. With the Internet it requires a bit more ignorance to keep that stance up, but it is still well within the capabilities of the average person. You cannot reach people that value that comfort higher than actually knowing what is happening. In fact, you can only reach a small part of the human race with rational argument and facts, maybe 20% or so. The rest moves with their
Re: (Score:2)
And I fear that history is repeating itself. If Russia closes up again, it will be another 50 year cycle. The
Re: (Score:2)
Living in a comfy filter bubble only works when the bubble is actually comfy. It doesnt work nearly as well when the supermarkets are empty and your sons are coming home in body bags from a war that your supreme leader says is going according to plan. Thats what destroyed the soviet union. The US didnt beat the USSR. The USSR defeated itself because it had crappy governmental and economic models.
And I fear that history is repeating itself. If Russia closes up again, it will be another 50 year cycle. The way its heading, it wont be long before Russia is just another crappy third world country.
True. Of course, Russia has been working hard on assuring a minimal level of comfort for that filter bubble in the face of sanctions, very likely in preparation for what is happening now. We will see how it plays out this time and how good the preparations actually were. Also, the pretty unified reaction of the west may have come as a surprise. Long-term I agree. Totalitarian states are not stable. They can sometimes degrade very slowly though, see North Korea for example.
Re: (Score:2)
it will be another 50 year cycle.
50 year cycle eh? Very close. Nothing captures it better than this old cartoon from the Economist. [economist.com]
Thing is, the West, and Europe in particular, has now been thorougly disillusioned by the utterly failed attempt to promote and sustain change in Russia through partnership and cooperation. For the EU in particular, being geographically and politically close to Russia and having made a big first step here by betting on Russia for energy supplies, this means they now will have to go into hyper reverse and come
Re: (Score:2)
Not that bad. For the EU, Russian gas was always only a temporary solution. Some things will not have to be done a bit faster. No, not nuclear, that is a complete failure economically and in its engineering properties as can be seen in, for example, no independent (!) energy company actually wanting new nuclear and them wanting to shut down the expensive failures they still have running. Storage is making great strides. Wind and solar works pretty well now and is getting cheap enough that low-efficiency sto
Re: (Score:2)
Look at the Americans that tune in each night to watch Faux News... Same shit different country.
My Mother-in-Law announced at lunch the other day that the Border Patrol is handing out free bus tickets to Illegal Aliens to the city of their choice and a $1000-dollar prepaid credit card. When we questioned her on her source of information other family members interceded. Shrugh.
Re: What does it matter? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: What does it matter? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I assume from your comment that anything not faux news or AON or Newsmax is "left wing" to you.
Re: (Score:2)
Ah, since Russians haven't had an instantaneous response to contradictory information, all hope is lost, and further attempts to show a different point of view are doomed.
Need I remind you how long the US was involved in Afghanistan, attitudes at the start of the war vs. the end, and what the top brass were saying throughout.
This is basket of deplorables all over again.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
We saw the same thing happening in the UK with brexit. There were, still are, people who despite mountains of evidence and first hand accounts from their families, can't accept the truth.
Some of the crypto scams are the same, there are people posting on Twitter that their wife left them and their families don't want to talk to them, but they are still convinced that their crappy drawing of a bored ape is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Re: (Score:2)
Even when presented with evidence, many Russians say it's a lie [9gag.com], that they only believe what their dictator is telling them. Even when their own children tell them they are being attacked by Russian troops, the parents don't believe them. [bbc.com]
Russians have had open access to the internet for some time now. If all that truthful information hasn't made an impact so far, cutting them off won't make a difference.
This. A friend's spouse moved to the U.S. from Russia as an adult and is now a naturalized U.S. citizen. When delicately asked what the spouse thought about the invasion of Ukraine, the friend relied that their spouse watched a lot of Russian-language news online. Despite leaving Russia, despite changing their citizenship, they still believe the Russian-language "news" over American journalism. Just let that sink in. Obviously, that's a cohort of one, but despotic governments use propaganda because propagan
Re: (Score:2)
Russians have had open access to the internet for some time now. If all that truthful information hasn't made an impact so far, cutting them off won't make a difference.
Even in Freedom-land, some people voluntarily get their news from propaganda outlets, like Breitbart and Occupy Democrat, that are no better than RT. And heavily biased sources like NYT and Fox are even quite popular, with viewers thinking it's only the other one that's biased. Why is it surprising that Russians don't think any more critically than Americans?
Re: (Score:2)
Last time I checked, that wasn't something that was unique to Russians.
Should EVERYONE be cut off from the internet, then?
Re: (Score:2)
Silly grasshopper (Score:2)
Iron curtain comes after war, not before
Re: (Score:2)
When isn't there a war?
Russian troops are still occupying parts of Moldova some 30 years after the Transnistria War. We can expect something rather messy if Moldova successfully joins the EU. (They are unlikely to apply to NATO, since that would require a new constitution and probably kick off WW3)
Russians won't oppose Putin (Score:3)
Everyone keeps assuming the Russian people (Score:3)
United States has a very complex system of maintaining civilian oversight and control of the military coupled with a large s
Re: (Score:3)
The rank and file people are the same ones who comprise the military that would be used against them.
The people are the only ones who can change Russia. Revolution comes from within, not without.
Re: (Score:2)
Successful revolutions throughout history have only occurred when the Army backed the revolutionaries, or at the very least stayed in their barracks. If Putin falls, it's because either the generals turn on him or mid ranking officers foment a "Colonel's coup".
Re: (Score:2)
Putin would need to lose the generals and the oligarchs before he has any chance of being deposed.
I don't know what his hold on the general is like, but the oligarchs surely can't be too happy with him right now as their assets are being seized and the ruble is in flames.
Re: (Score:2)
PutiePie doesn't have to be taken out. He could instead be rendered so completely paranoid as to bunker up and not come out, at which point a Potemkin Command and Control could be presented to him while the rest of the country tunes him out entirely.
Re: (Score:2)
Now different cultures have a different idea of what constitutes the best balance between freedom and security. I respect that; when you believe that the whole world thinks in the same way as you, things like Afghanistan happen.
However, let's not
In Russia Cloud really rains on you (Score:2)
I know the Smirnovian didn't work but it would be naive to think that any military or political leader wouldn't take this kind of isolation and sanctions into account.
Anybody remember BRIC now changed to BRICS is [wikipedia.org] and what it's goals are?
A shocker was to get away from SWIFT:
The Central Bank of Russia (CBR) also started consultations with BRICS nations for a payment system that would be an alternative to the SWIFT system. The main benefits highlighted were backup and redundancy in case there were disruptions to the SWIFT system.
by disruptions to SWIFT they meant sanctions being imposed on member nations.
In essence, they want a detached monetary and political system that doesn't depend on the US or its allies so they can't be subject to sanctions.
Russia has vast
Re: (Score:2)
Unlike Florida they have little debt, a large sovereign wealth fund and a population accustomed to being poor. They can keep coasting for a while.
All the sanctions will be lifted (Score:2)
And it's really only a matter of time before Putin's forces roll over Ukraine. The West will probably continue to funnel weapons into the region but not as a
Re: (Score:2)
That's a thoroughly cynical and depressing analysis, but I'm afraid you're right. Since the beginning of this mess I've said that Putin and the oligarchs anticipated most or all of the sanctions and planned around them.
If the West was serious about helping Ukraine and stopping Putin they'd have troops and armaments there repelling the invaders. Ukraine is a stepping-stone to Eastern Europe and if our leaders over here had any sense they'd be defending that stone with a lot more than mere sanctions.
The West'
Re: (Score:2)
Sounds too much like 'Putin the superman' . You never know where you will end up once you start a war but at least you should know that you don't know.
I believe Douglas MacGregor's interpretation that Putin started a war because he saw that as his only choice. In fact Macgregor predicted it would start 2 weeks earlier. Neutralize at least part of Ukraine and take out the Neo-nazis because they are white jihadists with sufficient power to kill anyone who dares to get into serious negotiations.
Re:All the sanctions will be lifted (Score:4, Interesting)
It depends on how far Putin plans to roll. It appears as he approaches the Polish border, Poland may become involved in a very material way. Where Poland draws that line, I'm not sure. What Putin does with half of the Ukraine under the onslaught of a perpetual insurgency supported by weapons from at least Poland (and likely Germany and others) is not clear either Does Putin order the extermination of every man woman and child in Ukraine? Would his soldiers even follow such an order? Also, the oligarchs are losing real material wealth every single day (plus, frankly being wealthy if you can't go to the US or Europe to spend it isn't all that much fun), and it appears the Russian economy may suffer complete collapse the moment they try and reopen their stock exchange. A long term commitment by the West may not be necessary as Russian hemorrhages rapidly.
Re: (Score:3)
What advantage is there in the US lifting Russian sanctions? Russia is a relatively small economy. It hurts us very little to clamp down on them economically.
There are also some important precedents we can set here. Would we do the same thing to China if they invaded Taiwan? The CCP surely can't discount the possibility.
No, I think the sanctions will remain as long as Russia occupies Ukraine. The NATO alliance would be showing too much weakness if they relaxed sanctions as soon as the headlines went aw
Re: (Score:2)
Add to this that it is not only US sanctions in place. Europe comprises some 450m people, Ukraine is a part of our continent and is our neighbor, and particularly the Baltic states are terrified of the same happening to them, NATO membership or not.
Sanctions are certainly not going away IF Putin gets control of the Ukraine.
Re: (Score:2)
Agreed, I should have stated that a bit more inclusively. Europeans have a more direct stake in punishing this blatant aggression than anyone else. I don't think people will simply "lose interest" if/when the fighting settles down. All you need to is look at a history book to see what ignoring aggression has done to Europe before. Russia should be economically cut off from the world, and I'll sure as hell make sure my representatives well understand I'm in favor of this policy. .
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
True, reparations would be justice. But I think I'd be willing to settle for just having them leave at this point. IMO, the most important things are to stop the killing and make sure Ukrainians retain (or at a future date, regain) their sovereignty. Like it or not, as distasteful as it may seem, we may have to compromise a bit to make that happen, in the vein of realpolitik. Besides, surely the free world could give some economic help for rebuilding. If we're not going to spill blood for Ukraine, I th
Russia isn't even going to win militarily... (Score:2)
The writing is on the wall. Russia has unmotivated troops, insanely bad logistics, crappy weapons, such an intense amount of corruption they they're basically unable to resupply anything, and absolutely overwhelmingly crippling sanctions that are devastating their supply chains.
And what are they up against? The latest MANPAD portable weaponry. An airforce that refuses to die. Essentially absolutely unanimous opposition among the populace.
They are turning to brutalizing the civilian populace, unaware that al
Too late (Score:2)
There will be no Internet — all people in Russia will only listen to propaganda....
That's basically already the case. Putin's government already effectively has a GFW. If a website hosts material that they don't want Russians to see, they'll just block it, just like they did facebook, twitter, and others.
But ... but ... (Score:2)
But ... but ... it feels like doing something useful, so that's enough, right?
And so much less costly than maintaining actual deterrence.
The US and EU ought to be fracking hard (Score:2)
Russia is an oil company with weapons. Drive down the price of oil and gas, and you take away Putin's money supply.
Plus open the Keystone XL.
Re: (Score:2)
Major Oil purchases are made via long running contracts. The US already has a long running contract with Russia in this respect. We've yet to cancel it. I doubt we will. Go read a book.
Re: (Score:2)
When it comes to the price of oil and gas there is no winning, if the price stays low every one uses it without a thought, at least now with the gas price being high, lazy gov't will make a bigger effort to stop using it and increase renewables, storage and home insulation.
Incoherence (Score:2)
>Cogent Communications ... has cut ties with Russian customers over its invasion of Ukraine.
There's at least a few things seriously wrong with that sentence.
And what good is going to come from ever escalating sanctions?
Just like what exactly, in the short or long term, other death and suffering is going to come from encouraging Ukraine to war and supplying them with more weapons?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
>When you strangle the economy of an aggressor that is trying to construct an empire you make it more difficult for the aggressor to build his empire by invading his neighbors and killing people.
Sometimes when you strangle the economy of a country you make it more difficult for them to act with militarily aggression inside another country, but sometimes it doesn't work, and sometimes it increases the aggression. Meanwhile the people that are hurt the most tends to be those that are the least responsible.
Re: (Score:2)
The wrongest thing part is this:
unplugging Russia from Cogent's global network will likely result in slower connectivity
To think that moving away from Cogent could slow down your connectivity is mind-boggling. I've known their name for almost twenty years as being a crappy backbone provider.
Dear Chinese (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It should not be news that a sovereign can be above the law. You can flip open almost any random history book and fine examples.
It's not fair or right or just, at least among some schools of thought. But it is typical. And painfully so.
same as Bruce Lee (Score:2)
Even if we assume it has anything to do with physical self defense , 170 cm is very close to the height that Bruce Lee had in adulthood : https://www.celebheights.com/s... [celebheights.com]
Re: (Score:2)
A lot of it comes out of Russia. Maybe we should just disconnect them
Re: (Score:2)
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
As far as I'm concerned, you have the most memorable sig on Slashdot. I quote this one more often than I'm willing to admit.
That said, I'm not sure disconnecting them from our side will really help. Russia is already willfully disconnecting themselves from services they feel aren't pulling the narrative they want their public to hear. They've elected to block both Facebook and Twitter already, which I'd wager reduces a significant portion of their western influences. The more population that is cut off from
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If they are using a well considered carefully weighted strategy they won't let a petition by a bunch of armchair generals change their minds.
Re: How sad (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If they are using a well considered carefully weighted strategy
They aren't.
Children are taught that adults know what they are doing. They don't.
When I was in high school, I was required to read "The Guns of August" about how politicians and generals bumbled and miscommunicated into the 1st World War, a war that no one wanted, that benefited no one, and resolved nothing. I later was assigned to read "The March of Folly" by the same author.
Look at how America bumbled into the Iraq War or how Biden handled the Afghan withdrawal.
The people in charge didn't get where they
Re: (Score:2)
A president could, of course, have ordered CENTCOM to make sure they blew up their shit on the way out, but ultimately, the fact is, nobody really cared, and that included the brass.
The equipment has little strategic value, and the Taliban wasn't considered an enemy anymore.
Re: (Score:2)
If your petition requires that much emotional rhetoric to get someone to sign it, your goal is obviously tainted from the start.
Pick up a rifle and head there yourself, asshole.
Re: (Score:2)
You seem pretty much determined to push us over the brink.
Re: (Score:2)
Putin would never make that decision. He'd need to admit he'd make a mistake.It's more likely to end when one of his elite guards is convinced by some generals and oligarchs that the best thing for Russia would be to have Putin pacified. Not likely as long as Putin can pull the trigger and nuke either one of his enemies or a dissenting Russian city.
Re: (Score:2)
Not likely as long as Putin can pull the trigger and nuke either one of his enemies or a dissenting Russian city.
Eyeroll.
There's no button to nuke a Russian city. Orders would have to be given to direct a mobile SRBM launcher to retarget to a Russian city, and then real life Russians would have to fuel that fucking thing, and launch it. At a Russian city.
How the fuck do people like you get so disconnected from reality?
Re: (Score:2)
more connected than you think, mate. The problem is how do you get by not being able to understand metaphors?
Re: (Score:2)
more connected than you think, mate.
No. Not remotely.
Russia doesn't have silo-loaded SRBM forces, and the only thing he could blow up with an ICBM is Kamchatka.
I understand the metaphor just fine. I was pointing out how your metaphor is trash.
You're talking like Putin can wave his hands and get Russian troops to pacify a Russian city. He's having trouble getting them to do it to Ukrainians, and they don't even speak the same fucking language.
You're attributing superpowers to this tiny-dicked petty tyrant, and I can't for the life of me
Re: (Score:2)
The one country in the world that ever acquiesced to being denuked is the one currently being invaded.
Iraq and Libya both agreed to dismantle their nuclear programs.
They were also invaded.
Re: (Score:2)
South Africa also had nuclear weapons, and gave them up, but they actually decided to dismantle them for different reasons (Operation Don't Let The B;acl People Get Nukes)
Some have opined that Ukraine giving up its weapons was a bad idea, but the fact is, they couldn't really use them, and at the point where they could, they couldn't really wield them a
Re: (Score:2)
Not the only one. Kazakhstan, Belarus and IIRC the three Baltic countries as well.
Re: (Score:2)
Kazakhstan and Belarus were different situations.
The strategic assets were technically owned by the CIS, which designated Russia as the successor state to the USSR, and more importantly- put strategic assets under Russian control. Kazakhstan and Belarus were member states of the CIS, and as such in those lands, the strategic assets were never theirs. The Russians came and picked them up and relocated them to Russia.
In Ukraine, they refused to acknowledge Rus
Re: (Score:2)
I know for a fact that there was a nuclear submarine training school in Paldiski, Estonia. They had a couple of submarine reactor there and I am pretty sure also some warheads. As for weapons, my understanding was that whatever was stationed in a former Soviet republic stayed there hence Yeltsin returned to Ukraine multiple strategic bombers the crews of which defected from Ukraine to Russia in early 1990s.
Re: (Score:2)
I know for a fact that there was a nuclear submarine training school in Paldiski, Estonia.
Sure was.
They had a couple of submarine reactor there and I am pretty sure also some warheads.
No warheads, at least according to historical accounts. Only 4 republics out of the entire former USSR were known to have nuclear weapons. NATO spent a great deal of resources making sure they knew who had physical control of the weapons between the Alma-Ata Protocol and the Budapest Memorandum.
As for weapons, my understanding was that whatever was stationed in a former Soviet republic stayed there hence Yeltsin returned to Ukraine multiple strategic bombers the crews of which defected from Ukraine to Russia in early 1990s.
Nope.
The USSR was dissolved by agreement between the founding members of the Commonwealth of Independent States, who create it to replace the relationship between the Republics that had existed under the US
Re: (Score:2)
A few months ago Zelensky declared if NATO would not protect him then it was time to pull out of the Budapest memorandum. With the still available soviet technology he would have deliverable nukes pretty fast. So I think a lot of factors were coming together that made Putin and his advisors decide that time was running out. Also, if you would replace Putin by someone else chances are he'd make the same decision(it would be a he).
Re: How sad (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Note, it wasn't out of some lofty ideal of non-nuclearization.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
And we were always at war with them.
Fox News reports that the chocolate ration is increasing from 30g to 28g, effective immediately.
Re: (Score:2)
So people who whine about "cancel culture" are as bad the Russians? Wow, I'm surprised we agree on that much!