Why Craigslist Still Looks the Same After 25+ Years (pcmag.com) 95
An anonymous reader quotes a report from PC Magazine: Craigslist emerged in 1995 to connect strangers through a free, web-based platform that has endured as rivals services like Zillow, Facebook Marketplace, and countless dating apps emerged with advanced features and slick interfaces. These platforms survive on advertising and subscription revenue. Craigslist, of course, has none of that. Over the years, the OG online marketplace has all but refused to modernize; its mobile app only came out in 2019 after nearly 25 years in business. Why does the website still look the same after so many decades? That was the main question I had when I sat down for a video call with craigslist founder Craig Newmark, who joined me from the New York City apartment he shares with his wife, Eileen Whelpley.
Newmark stepped down as CEO of craigslist in 2000 after others told him he wasn't cut out for management, he says. Jim Buckmaster has been at the helm since, though Newmark remains a partial owner. He now works on philanthropy full time, supporting groups like the Coalition Against Online Violence, which helps combat harassment against female journalists. Still, the 69-year-old entrepreneur is a billionaire (or near-billionaire since he's given away millions). Our chat yielded much more than expected, from Costco hotdogs to Hello Kitty and his childhood Sunday School lessons. It's clear that the website is the purest and most enduring expression of Craig Newmark, a humble tech mogul who marches to the beat of his own drum. Here's what Newmark had to say when asked about the site's appearance:
Why does the website still look the pretty much the same today as when you founded it? There's even a new CEO. What's going on?
Because that serves people better. I've learned that people want stuff that is simple and fast and gets the job done. People don't need fancy stuff. Sometimes you just want to get through the day.
Well, you can still have simplicity with a modern font or a new UI. The definition of simplicity on the web has changed over the years. Is it just that you're making enough money and there's a desire to keep it the way it is?
I'll challenge the premise that the idea of simplicity has changed. The deal is that people still use the site in great numbers. And again, it helps people get something done. It's fast and easy for people, and that's a big deal.
And maybe you also don't care too much about aesthetics (of the website, for example)?
For me as an engineer, simple as beautiful. Functional is beautiful.
How would you feel if craigslist dramatically changed in its appearance or its function?
I'm okay if the spirit is maintained. I like a very simple site with its use and functionality obvious when you look at it. Now maybe there's a better way to do that, that no one has come up with yet. If it's really better, I can't object to that. If it's genuinely better, I will say something. But again, I can't legitimately try to exert serious influence. Jim's boss.
In summary, what is your most concise answer to why craigslist still looks the same today?
People tell me it gets the job done. They want it done. As I like to put it, a nerd's got to do what a nerd's got to do.
Newmark stepped down as CEO of craigslist in 2000 after others told him he wasn't cut out for management, he says. Jim Buckmaster has been at the helm since, though Newmark remains a partial owner. He now works on philanthropy full time, supporting groups like the Coalition Against Online Violence, which helps combat harassment against female journalists. Still, the 69-year-old entrepreneur is a billionaire (or near-billionaire since he's given away millions). Our chat yielded much more than expected, from Costco hotdogs to Hello Kitty and his childhood Sunday School lessons. It's clear that the website is the purest and most enduring expression of Craig Newmark, a humble tech mogul who marches to the beat of his own drum. Here's what Newmark had to say when asked about the site's appearance:
Why does the website still look the pretty much the same today as when you founded it? There's even a new CEO. What's going on?
Because that serves people better. I've learned that people want stuff that is simple and fast and gets the job done. People don't need fancy stuff. Sometimes you just want to get through the day.
Well, you can still have simplicity with a modern font or a new UI. The definition of simplicity on the web has changed over the years. Is it just that you're making enough money and there's a desire to keep it the way it is?
I'll challenge the premise that the idea of simplicity has changed. The deal is that people still use the site in great numbers. And again, it helps people get something done. It's fast and easy for people, and that's a big deal.
And maybe you also don't care too much about aesthetics (of the website, for example)?
For me as an engineer, simple as beautiful. Functional is beautiful.
How would you feel if craigslist dramatically changed in its appearance or its function?
I'm okay if the spirit is maintained. I like a very simple site with its use and functionality obvious when you look at it. Now maybe there's a better way to do that, that no one has come up with yet. If it's really better, I can't object to that. If it's genuinely better, I will say something. But again, I can't legitimately try to exert serious influence. Jim's boss.
In summary, what is your most concise answer to why craigslist still looks the same today?
People tell me it gets the job done. They want it done. As I like to put it, a nerd's got to do what a nerd's got to do.
Please... (Score:5, Insightful)
For the love of god...it works. Don't change it...
Re:Please... (Score:5, Insightful)
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I've never used FB marketplace, but I have used Offerup. While there are a few features of Offerup that are better than Craigslist, it has features that take away from it, like that you can't post without using a cell phone. And it seems to have just as high an unreliability rate as Craigslist when it comes to sellers not responding to my inquiries, and also when it comes to fairly obvious scams.
If there's one thing I'd like Craigslist to do, is to stomp on out-of-area sellers that flood things like the u
Please: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! (Score:5, Insightful)
How many times does this have to be "RE"learned?
MS constantly changing user interface is continually frustrating
Web sites needing faster and faster connections and faster and faster computers is infuriating!
Can still browse Craigslist on old slow computer using phone's cellular connection hotspot & it works!
Re:Please: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! (Score:5, Interesting)
MS constantly changing user interface is continually frustrating
See Windows 11. What a steaming pile.
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That's because if they don't change the UI, the nontechnical customer doesn't see any change, so they don't feel anything has changed.
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Re: Please: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! (Score:1)
Changing shit costs money. Changing shit that's already generating revenue so that it generates roughly the same amount of revenue is a waste of money even if it didn't get you bad press.
Conclusion: changing UIs is not an example of a company pursuing any reasonable motive; it is more likely to be a case of a company failing to reign in the self-serving tendencies of its employees that work counter to the bottom line.
It happens. You think *your* workplace invented stupid? We'll I've got some bitcoin bridge
Re: Please: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! (Score:1)
Youâ(TM)re telling people on /. that? :). Donâ(TM)t expect them to fix their shitty handling of utf-8 anytime soon!
Re: Please: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! (Score:1)
Anything that's worth saying can be said in ascii. Poop emojis and "businessman in hat hovering off the ground" emojis are a crutch to make the otherwise mute think they're good at holding a conversation.
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It's not just MS. Lots of companies. :( People are shocked to see I still use web designs from the 90s. Sure, it's ugly but at least it's light, fast, etc.
Re:Please: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! (Score:5, Interesting)
You can get a nice, modern looking design without slowing down your webpage hardly at all.
The first thing is to make it look good on mobile.
Then put things in boxes. Add some drop shadows [getcssscan.com], and everything will look great and be fast.
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And still fast on slow Internet connections like dial-up speeds? :P
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Yeah, just be careful with your image sizes. If you do it right, it'll also degrade gracefully so you don't have to alienate people running IE 2.
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How many times does this have to be "RE"learned?
The big perpetrators of Steaming Piles of Shit interfaces don't need to re-learn this - they know it well and violate it on purpose.
The basic functionality of this stuff changes very little and very slowly - there's not much to be done with Office 365 that couldn't be done in Office '97. But without constant, meaningless whiz-bang churn people would still be using ancient software. UI fuckery is a crucial part of what is effectively a planned-obsolescence strategy for software. If you think about it, whole
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If the functionality is the same, what is stagnant? Changing how something is used, but having the same functionality is just "extra steps". Rounding the corners on icons doesn't magically make things better. Face it...a lot of changes have more to do with marketing than functionality...because everyone is conditioned to consume, and desire the "new shiny".
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Hundreds of thousands of companies and government entities could learn from this example. Why does some marketing/interweb dweeb who doesn't know anything about the company's products, customers, etc or what the government entity they work for actually does, feel like they have to refresh their respective website every few years? Oh yeah, to justify their utter lack of skills of any real world purpose.
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> it works. Don't change it...
When I point out that Oracle Forms shops get internal CRUD apps done 3x faster than web shops and are fairly easy to use, I'll get called all kind of names. But I stand behind it. I don't even do OF programming, only did a few tutorials, so I have no "got used to" bias. I and others just notice it works for cheap and has slim app code.
Too bad Oracle rewrote the client from C to Java, because Java is still PITA to manage on a desktop. Otherwise, it would still proliferate.
Gen
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Same for slashdot! Who needs unicode or comments that are readable when there are more than 100 posts, right!
Craigslist is fast (Score:5, Insightful)
Craigslist is fast to load, and their search functionality is literal, not algorithmic. Unlike (say) Fecesbook Marketplace on desktop, which takes its sweet time, and where search tends to give whatever results it wants.
Sadly, the rabble are using Fecesbook more and more, and Craigslist less. Because WOW! SHINY! NEW! and because CASH, eeeeew! How CHEUGY! Apparently people WANT to be taxed on their incidental income.
Re:Craigslist is fast (Score:4, Interesting)
Had the same thoughts about FB Marketplace. If I want to buy something local, even if I set the search range to 5 miles from my house, I still get splattered with ads for things shipped from out of state. I think that's really where Craigslist shines, if I want to find something locally I can, no gimmicks.
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Try Searchtempest. It helps scour Craigslist's across multiple areas using a search radius. I've used it for several years...but, unlike Craigslist, they have changed their UI...and are worse off for it.
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Perhaps people feel like the Fecers are less anonymous so safer to do business with. Or just shinier. Or it's convenient for people who spent most of their online time in FB.
Didn't CL cut down on whatever community topics are hard to moderate? Quick look, seems they're still there.
CL is a good place to see some hard facts on the job market, as opposed to the wishful view engendered by more curated sites.
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Didn't CL cut down on whatever community topics are hard to moderate?
They got rid of their personals section after the Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act of 2018. No surprise really, that act was designed to go after Craigslist and Backpage.
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
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Sadly, the rabble are using Fecesbook more and more, and Craigslist less. Because WOW! SHINY! NEW!
I think it's because they actually know how to use Facebook, and have never heard of Craigslist.
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Craigslist let me rapidly filter through the listings for many trucks, until I found several that were very much like my old truck. I finally made a good deal with one seller and was able to ha
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I agree FB marketplace is broken but my last CL search had two search results which were #18 and #23 respectively in the results, among car dealer and RV dealer ads.
That's broken too. I don't mind side ads but that's unusable.
Out of touch (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, you can still have simplicity with a modern font or a new UI. The definition of simplicity on the web has changed over the years. Is it just that you're making enough money and there's a desire to keep it the way it is?
If we examine what most major web companies think is "simplicity with a modern font or new UI", no, you can't have simplicity like that. It seems like the more modern designs get, the less usable they get. Designers remove visual separation and contrast and spread things out to compensate, which means we end up with less information conveyed in a less convenient to consume manner. They're "simpler" in that there's less stuff on the screen, but they're not simpler in terms of use, because they're harder to use.
Re:Out of touch (Score:4, Informative)
CL uses some traditional design principles: notice it's divided into three columns, and the center column is subdivided into three columns.
I appreciated its commitment to lack of ornamentation and density of information, but fine design can be pleasing too. The worst of both worlds is probably something like Amazon or the backend Wordpress Dashboard. Wikipedia is slightly better than average.
The reigning monarchs of javascript overload were, for more than a decade, newspaper sites. Often the js bandwidth was greater than the image loads, due to multiple ad networks. (I'm no longer on dialup so not so sensitive to it, not checking the network traffic.) It's ironic, since printed newspapers evolved to follow pretty strict design standards. In mathematical science publishing, you start to appreciate the traditions of typography: every kern has to be right or it looks wrong. But newspapers learned to do completely without bold or italics. Many have degraded in design now, excluding the top few.
Another advantage of CL design is that it is unique and distinctive, at this point.
As long as it can handle unicode, it's fit to purpose (hint). And the editor works well (contra Reddit).
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* appreciate
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>"If we examine what most major web companies think is "simplicity with a modern font or new UI", no, you can't have simplicity like that. It seems like the more modern designs get, the less usable they get."
I couldn't agree more. "Modern" sites are slow, sparse, hard to navigate, impossible to read (since they love grey on grey on grey), huge photos, and infuriating with constant animations, popups, traveling junk, mouse-overs, forced smooth-scrolling or auto scrolling, and huge margins. And one of my
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I could get behind a font change...but the rest of that UI works.
Then again I still load "http://old.reddit.com" too so I'm not the prime audience for most things.
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Sadly, even Craigslist's web site forces a font on the reader. One has to wonder why browsers even offer an option to change the font/typeface any more. I keep hoping to find a site that'll agree to let me view it with a "whatever serif" font and I'm always disappointed.
Re: Out of touch (Score:4, Funny)
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Well, you can still have simplicity with a modern font or a new UI. The definition of simplicity on the web has changed over the years. Is it just that you're making enough money and there's a desire to keep it the way it is?
If we examine what most major web companies think is "simplicity with a modern font or new UI", no, you can't have simplicity like that. It seems like the more modern designs get, the less usable they get. Designers remove visual separation and contrast and spread things out to compensate, which means we end up with less information conveyed in a less convenient to consume manner. They're "simpler" in that there's less stuff on the screen, but they're not simpler in terms of use, because they're harder to use.
You can have simplicity in a modern UI... Just fire anyone who describes themselves as UX designers (or thinks UX is a good idea instead of absolute bollocks). These are people who design phone interfaces for desktop computers.
People hate change (Score:2)
If they have to learn a new UI, they might as well go somewhere else, the effort will be the same.
Newer / fancier isn't always better. (Score:3)
All the interviewer's questions center around the premise that newer and/or fancier is better, but that's simply not always/necessarily so.
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All the interviewer's questions center around the premise that newer and/or fancier is better, but that's simply not always/necessarily so.
Barney Stinson would disagree. [youtube.com]
Music to my ears (Score:2)
This is music to my ears. You have no idea as a web developer of 23 years how many times in the mid 2000s I was harassed by management that my applications (all internal, inside companies) looked "dated". To which my answer was that "but they function perfectly". Eventually I had to succumb to throwing color in (as opposed to let the user select whether they want a dark background and choose their text colors). You know what's wrong with colors? Not everybody likes the same color.
Nowadays, the state of
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And how much bandwidth does it take for the end user to download that "modern UI framework"?
How long will that framework continue to be supported?
How many security holes will be in said framework?
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You don't have a friggin clue, do you?
How much bandwidth does it take for all your end users to download that "simple UI framework"?
Do you really expect your users to understand that they should be considered compromised because they visited your website?
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I need to know: where are you located, what are your hours, what is your phone number, what is a contact email, and (if a restaurant) what is your menu (and if you're seasonal/local, a sample menu from within the last month or so). A single static HTML page will do just fine. Not going to win design awards,
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Can I get that in cornflower blue?
Old saying (Score:3)
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Maybe other sites can learn a thing or two from Craigslist.
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That was literally the first thing I thought when I read the title of the article. Surprised it took this long to get posted.
Re: Old saying (Score:3)
Back in 1996 when I began to use the Web on a regular basis, it was an absolute joy and everything was predictable.
Now it's an absolute shit fest, sometimes making me feel like I am playing some cheap crappy action video game just to try to read the little bit of text without the various extensions to stop this behavior, and with extensions, my connection is still getting constantly hammered while the Ublock Origin counter ticks up all of those attempts at them shoving shit down my throat I don't want All
No advertising (Score:2)
Since the site doesn't need to host more advertising in more clever ways, or otherwise visually bamboozle the users, there is no need for an upgrade. If they did need to upgrade, Modern UI or what have you would be the natural choice, because trendy.
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Fancy UI means serving more images/scripts/resources.
More images requires more storage and bandwidth.
More storage and bandwidth require more money.
More money required means more revenue from Ads.
Everyone loses.
Wow, that was a masters class... (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow, that interview snippet at the end was a masters class in flogging a dead horse!
FFS, did you really have to keep asking the same question over and over?
Do you have a reason to change Craigslist?
Do you have a specific change you'd like to suggest?
The current interface works - well - on all manner of devices, what benefit would a redefined UI bring to the user?
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Exactly what I was thinking. Asking the question once is fine. Maybe a follow-up from a slightly different angle is still okay. But FIVE times?! And, additionally, she asked about monetization FOUR times.
That's 9 of the 10 total questions she asked about Craigslist! The other being "How many people work at craigslist today?" What kind of a crap interview was that?
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Perhaps the interviewer is some sort of 'bot, suffering from a prompt injection attack [slashdot.org].
they redirected the bot to repeat embarrassing and ridiculous phrases
Re: Wow, that was a masters class... (Score:2)
First UX designer change interface for no good reason, Craigslist now use strange framework 3Mb download, disabled caching, must download framework for each page. Now idiot UX designer has money for buy new iPhone.
Now guy with old computer can't access craigslist, but old guy like to find local Ho and stuff, so He forced to upgrade computer. After upgrade computer Guy no longer has money for buy old Wilton Vise. Craigslist still look like ass, but now also slow.
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Some people have said they like Windows 11 because the UI feels "fresher". And yes: Different feels nice...for a short time. Then you get used to it and what matters most is that it's usable and doesn't get in the way.
And, critically, newer doesn't always means better so many UIs have been ruined by too many changes. It's also pervasive in the industry: Andro
Ugh (Score:2)
Well, you can still have simplicity with a modern font or a new UI.
Too often when people say "new UI" they really mean bloated framework with analytic scripts. Not everything needs AJAX, roll-overs, pop-ups, and interaction.
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> Not everything needs AJAX, roll-overs, pop-ups, and interaction.
It's often Resume Oriented Programming: get as many buzzwords and trends on your resume as possible so you can find higher pay under a bigger sucker.
Shout out to Epguides.com (Score:2)
They're still the same almost-all-text site it has been since the start.
Now if only... (Score:2)
...we could get a functional web search back, like Google used to be, or Alta Vista back in the day.
And strip the new design crap off Twitter--back when it was limited to SMS simplicity.
And Reddit...
Bring back simple email that didn't get in the way too, like original Yahoo online email.
Thankfully Craigslist still is awesome, despite multiple other competitors having come and faded over its reign.
PS: Get off my lawn!
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old.reddit.com kind of
I haven't heard that name in years (Score:2)
When Craigslist abandoned being free, not only did I quit selling there, I also quit shopping there.
Why is javascript required? (Score:5, Interesting)
My own complaint is quite a bit different. I don't see why such a simple site as craigslist requires javascript, and has zero functionality if javascript is disabled.
NO. (Score:2)
"The definition of simplicity on the web has changed over the years."
No, it really hasn't. If you think it has, then you are part of the problem.
New font? (Score:2)
Can't I make that change in my browser?
I actually find it annoying as hell when a web site forces a typeface, size, and font color [1] on my browsing experience (gawd... that phrase sounds awfully Microsoftian). A text-only site like Craigslist lets me view the site in a way that's (typically) easier on my old eyes.
[1] -- Not seen as often as it was a few years ago but that light grey on white color scheme that some web designer favored gave me headaches.
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Heh... forget answer to my own question:
"Can't I make that change in my browser?"
Not for years now on the vast majority of web sites.
Since it's still here, it's good enough. (Score:2)
If the esthetics made it less competitive, it would have eventually died. It have not so it must be fine. Leave it.
Fast to load, it just works ... sadly ... (Score:2)
... it doesn't work with JavaScript disabled.
I'm scratching my head about why on earth JavaScript is required to load such simple markup.
Still, the markup itself isn't "ancient" - plenty of modern techniques in there.
Don't upset your customer base (Score:2)
Quite seriously, you don't want to piss off what makes up 99% of your customers. Rewriting bot-code is really, really painful.
Honestly didn't know they still existed (Score:2)
Digikey (Score:1)
Pull off strips (Score:2)
Klunky (Score:2)
The problem is that it is hard to do searches well. I only use it for cars. Very tedious.
Leave Well-Enough Alone! (Score:2)
Simple Works (Score:1)
Works well, fast, not bloated, user focused (Score:1)
More like U.S.A.list (Score:1)
Craigslist.org ?
I went to that site for the first time today, in my close to 50 year old life.
Every category I clicked on yielded "Nothing found for that search", just as expected.
In my country we use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Is Craigslist used outside of the U.S.A.?
He's part of the Zlist family! (Score:1)