Kia Plans To Build EVs In the US To Comply With New Federal Tax Credit (theverge.com) 62
Kia is planning to manufacture its electric vehicles in the US, according to South Korean media sources Maeil Business and SBS (via The EV Officials). The Verge reports: The automaker currently builds its flagship electric car and North American sales hit, the Kia EV6, in South Korea at its Hwasung plant. But now, Kia will shift some of its EV assembly to the US by 2024, according to the report. Manufacturing EVs in the US would allow Kia to qualify for new incentives that were included in the recently passed Inflation Reduction Act, which requires automakers to build EVs in North America to qualify.
Kia and its parent company, Hyundai, had threatened legal action against the US over what they see as a "discriminatory" policy. Other provisions will exclude automakers from incentives if they use Chinese-sourced minerals and battery components, which could effectively cut off almost every domestic EV manufacturer once the law goes into effect. Hyundai and Kia combined currently hold the second-highest market share for electric vehicles in the US, a position that could be at risk if customers can't take advantage of the new federal incentives (and man, are EVs getting expensive).
Kia and its parent company, Hyundai, had threatened legal action against the US over what they see as a "discriminatory" policy. Other provisions will exclude automakers from incentives if they use Chinese-sourced minerals and battery components, which could effectively cut off almost every domestic EV manufacturer once the law goes into effect. Hyundai and Kia combined currently hold the second-highest market share for electric vehicles in the US, a position that could be at risk if customers can't take advantage of the new federal incentives (and man, are EVs getting expensive).
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Diesel cars have too much localized pollution.
Hybrids still have an internal combustion engine, and so will still need all the extra maintenance and limited life-span compared to an EV. IF you care enough to pay extra for a PHEV, it usually makes sense to pay a bit more than that and get the EV.
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Plugin-Hybrids. Normally a 50m range is what most of the people need daily while occasionally they need to drive farther. Seems like a best combination - why drag heavy battery when 80% of it is rarely used? (well so is the ICE engine and gas with tank but this seems fine compromise for transition period).
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50m range is what most of the people need daily while occasionally they need to drive farther. Seems like a best combination - why drag heavy battery when 80% of it is rarely used? (well so is the ICE engine and gas with tank but
Don't look now, but you've just reasoned yourself out of the argument by admitting that hauling around half a ton of machinery and breakable parts you'll never use is stupid.
Also... You DO realize that the electricity stored in that 80% of the battery can be used for the next 50 miles? And the next 50 miles. And the next...
You don't throw away a phone or rush to charge it when its battery hits 80%.
Meanwhile, hauling around "the ICE engine and gas with tank but" that "most of the people" don't use is just sp
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Possibly - I not like ICE. Just that is not a clear cut: ICE range extender vs extended range battery. Technically pure EV wins, hands down. Simple, and clean on the surface (if you choose to ignore battery production and lack of recycling today). Just that with current infrastructure and political situation it seems in this transitionary period EV+ICE combination seem more practical than expecting everybody to switch in say 20 years. Think how much fossil fuels could be saved during the transition?
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One reason is for people who can't recharge every day. Some of the snag is that life, at least in most of the US, isn't really set up to handle the occasional longer trip without a vehicle for it. Ie, a trip to my dentist and back home takes up all the charge when I drive in a fuel efficient way. No slack to allow a visit to a store on the way, so the fuel part of the plug-in hybrid helps. But if you're EV only then suddenly you really need a plan B for when you need to visit the relatives or friends, thi
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why drag heavy battery when 80% of it is rarely used?
Longevity. You're actually using the whole thing, but the internal computer takes care of figuring out where the charge should go. If you have a smaller battery it will consume more charge cycles for the same mileage and thus require replacement sooner.
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Interesting point. Assuming a 50m distance and a need to keep battery pack between 80-20% charge for longevity we'd choose the size appropriately. So max range would be 70m 40% more but under normal circumstances the battery life would be appropriate to the cost/size.
Beyond that a replaceable and recyclable smaller battery + ICE based rage extender may be to optimal thing for now considering all: charging infrastructure, lack of battery recycling, China monopoly on Lithium. However, I suppose the Volt did n
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Diesel cars have too much localized pollution.
No more than gassers [slashdot.org].
Hybrids still have an internal combustion engine, and so will still need all the extra maintenance and limited life-span compared to an EV. IF you care enough to pay extra for a PHEV, it usually makes sense to pay a bit more than that and get the EV.
I predict that PHEVs will all but die out, and they will exist only in pickup trucks. It's the only short-term way to solve the towing mileage problem.
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Hybrids still have an internal combustion engine, and so will still need all the extra maintenance and limited life-span compared to an EV. IF you care enough to pay extra for a PHEV, it usually makes sense to pay a bit more than that and get the EV.
No, you shouldn't because producing the batteries creates a ton of CO2. Cars like the Karma use a different hybrid solution, where there's only a motor to drive the wheels and the engine drives a generator, when needed to recharge the battery. Railroad locomotives use a similar setup (diesel electric) and are much more efficient with this setup.
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The problem with pure EVs is that most people have no means to charge them conveniently. You either need a charger at work, a private garage at home with suitable power (ie, decent wiring, ground fault detectors, not some 60s era building). Charging at stores or places like that is not a reasonable long term solution. So a plugin-in hybrid works well because it can act like a top quality hybrid vehicle when access to charging is limited.
Right now the chargers at work have been down a week. So I'm using
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decent wiring, ground fault detectors, not some 60s era building
I don't know about that. My home was built in 1976, and I just swapped out the physical 240V plug where the dryer use to be to fit my charger, and I've had no issues. And running a new 240V line from your box to your garage or wherever isn't terribly expensive compared to buying gas.
But overall I agree that PHEV should be encouraged along side EVs while we sort out and fix the issues with using EVs. Even California's 'ban' on ICE vehicles allows for 20% PHEV... but I suspect that percentage is going to
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It's not a "ban" on ICE, but a ban on new ICE vehicles. It'll be like the smog rules; the old polluters stay on the road for years, if they don't pass the smog tests then they find ways to skirt the rules.
Re:Until EVs are cheaper... why not hybrids? (Score:5, Informative)
but right now, lithium only comes from China or their belt-and-road colonies, and China knows that.
Don't know where you got your information about Lithium production, but China is a distant third place. Lithium production in 2021 by country, in tonnes: Australia (55,000), Chile (26,000), China (14,000). This information has been covered in previous articles. Will the world's Lithium suppliers slow production of electric vehicles? [slashdot.org]
Lithium exports by country can be found here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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The issue is the batteries themselves. China makes the best batteries. South Korea makes some decent ones, but most of their capacity is taken up by Hyundai and Kia. Japan makes some, but Panasonic has been very conservative and only makes small packs. There are a few others, like the UK that only supplies Nissan.
So most manufacturers buy batteries from China. Even Tesla does, and in direct comparisons between Teslas with Chinese and US made batteries, the Chinese ones have a clear performance lead.
Naturall
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Yeah. They got started early. Had cities full of EV busses five years ago. 450kWh packs and ultra fast charging. Meanwhile we were still dicking around with hydrogen and writing off EVs as impractical. So frustrating.
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You mean Lithuania isn't #1?!
I'll see myself out.
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Instead of forcing automakers to be EV only
Who is doing that? Most jurisdictions consider plug-in hybrids to be zero-emission vehicles. E.g., California specifically allows plug-ins in their ZEV mandate.
lithium only comes from China or their belt-and-road colonies
Hogwash. The biggest producer is Australia, followed by Chile. America has plenty of lithium in the Great Salt Lake and the Salton Sea.
List of countries by lithium production [wikipedia.org]
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For the simplest process, you can use salt water
I question your use of the term 'simplest process'. They are still trying to figure out basic stuff like how to avoid having salt water corrode the electrodes
https://www.azocleantech.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=1607
And then there is the little question of how to supply all the power for this process, which is only 80% efficient. A kilogram of hydrogen holds 39.4 kWh of energy, but typically costs around 52.5 kWh of energy to create via current commercial electrolyzers.
And there is the storage and transp
EV user here (Score:3)
Had a Fiat 500e, Spark EV, Jaguar I-Pace, and Model Y. i4 on order. EVs are just plain better 99% of the time. Rent a gasser for your long trip. Otherwise, go EV. 150 miles range is fine.
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In Europe you can do your road trips in an EV without issue now. People regularly do a north to south run down to Italy, or up to the arctic circle. You hear complaints about the cars charging *too fast* now, not giving people enough time to take a comfort break.
Re: EV user here (Score:2)
My brother drove his new electric car across France a few months ago. The trip took 16 hours instead of 8. Refilling cost was higher than with gasoline because the few charging stations he could find along the road were more expensive per mile than with gasoline. And this is with a country that has supposedly good electrical infrastructure, and high petrol taxes.
EV is only good for local trips and if you have solar panel to lower your cost of electricity.
My expectation is that the cost of electricity will k
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My brother drove his new electric car across France a few months ago. The trip took 16 hours instead of 8. Refilling cost was higher than with gasoline because the few charging stations he could find along the road were more expensive per mile than with gasoline. And this is with a country that has supposedly good electrical infrastructure, and high petrol taxes.
That's a *right now* problem that goes away once we commit to transitioning and build out infrastructure.
EV is only good for local trips and if you have solar panel to lower your cost of electricity.
Solar panels are a nice plus, but even without them, just charging an EV at home makes it way cheaper to fuel than a gas powered car. And the EV gets cheaper when you realize there's very little ongoing maintenance on the car. Almost everything that needs regular in a gas powered car doesn't exist in an EV.
My expectation is that the cost of electricity will keep on going up to cover the increased demand, road tolls and car registration taxes will go up to cover the losses in petrol taxes, and the free remaining folks will struggle to find a gas station at all. The mandatory push for EV could be good for the planet long term but the technology still need to improve so that you don't need to fork an extra $24k after 8y to replace the battery pack, and the charging infrastructure need to improve so that you can conveniently do a longer trip like it is possible with a traditional car.
Obviously infrastructure needs to improve, and that'll probably happen sometime soon once we hit a
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The trip took 16 hours instead of 8.
I'm guessing there were zero fast chargers along the way? I've done a couple of trips that usually take about six hours, and the most it's taken me was a little over seven hours (had a few charger hiccups on one trip that slowed me down). And that's with a standard range Mach E (around 230 mi range).
Refilling cost was higher than with gasoline because the few charging stations he could find along the road were more expensive per mile than with gasoline.
So? Most EV driving is done near home, where you will save tons on day-to-day driving. I can't figure out why I hear so many complaints around fast charging prices. It's a tiny fraction of my electricity co
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In a Leaf perhaps? Or a very low range EV?
Because a couple of weeks ago UK to Italy and back again was no problem in an Ioniq 5. Plenty of chargers, priced cheaper than petrol.
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It was back in December 2021, one of Hyundai's EVs. Not sure which one as I'm less familiar with the European models. The trip was roughly Calais to Marseilles so not that far off compared to your trip. The charging stations are far in between, especially in the smaller cities where my family members are located.
I live near San Jose, CA, and we have charging stations all over the place. Even local campgrounds are starting to be equipped, although I have not checked the National Parks recently.
Personally I
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People do road trips in EVs just fine. It takes a little planning, but the 8-Bit Guy even did a Dallas to Chicago road trip in a Bolt - notable because a Bolt has only 150 miles of range, and barely qualifies for "DC fast charging".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
General consensus is that EVs do road trips just fine - the
EV recharging when restaurants are closed (Score:2)
So you stop to charge, get out, stretch your legs, get something to eat, etc. An hour later, your EV is ready to go
How does such a rest stop work when, for example, there's an outbreak of some disease and the health department has ordered all restaurants in the county you're refueling in to close? This was the case from March 2020 through June 2020 in my home state, and many chains didn't reopen their dining rooms for months after that. And if COVID case rate can't be brought down near typical flu rate, I see it happening again at times.
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So if I understand your question, you're saying you're wanting to go on a road trip
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EVs are great, but it's still prudent for many (most?) to have a GTFO gas powered vehicle. Right now there are a good number of people in Florida being told they may need to evacuate a hurricane path, and also to expect charge stations to be overwhelmed and/or unavailable.
I have been waiting and waiting for the right vehicle, actually had an F150 lightning pre-ordered but didn't buy because the dealer was trying to add an insaine markup, but even after I do buy I will still have a cheap functional gas powe
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Right now there are a good number of people in Florida being told they may need to evacuate a hurricane path, and also to expect charge stations to be overwhelmed and/or unavailable.
Yep, good thing there are never lines for gas stations during an evacuation, or people running out of gas because they have to idle in evacuation traffic. ICE vehicles haven't proven infallible to evacuations. When I had to evacuate for a wildfire, there was a line of 50 cars lined up at a gas station I passed in the middle of the night. Luckily the fire didn't reach that area while everybody was trying to fill their tanks...
Take a quality hit (Score:1)
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I bet that the cars they make in the USA will be of poorer workmanship quality than those made in S. Korea.
You're talking about a company where practically every gasoline vehicle they've made in the last decade has been recalled for an engine fire hazard. Any time you want to start making sense, please do.
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You just don't see that level of consistency in American cars anymore. :-)
Besides, damn near every story, video, and picture I can find on Kia's Hwasung plant focuses on robots as far as the eye can see. I'm fairly certain their robots aren't necessarily more proud of their work than US robots.
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You just don't see that level of consistency in American cars anymore.
Well, there is the Volt, I'm sure GM is working hard to expand that experience to more of their customers.
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Ray EV (Score:2)
They should make the Ray EV in the US. Then they'd actually be making an EV that wasn't a ridiculous-looking space-wasting fake muscle-car. They're lineup screams "We know Americans are idiots, so we make cars with that in mind -- Everything should ape the PT Cruiser."
I'd also like to see the Bongo EV made here. They could replace every two-stroke forestry/park service vehicle and a lot of urban utility trucks.
https://youtu.be/tE6mMSwtLQc?t... [youtu.be]
Here's the Ray EV being used as a simple camper: https://youtu [youtu.be]
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The problem is that Americans, by and large, ARE idiots who WANT ridiculous-looking space-wasting fake muscle-cars. The majority of the US population moved from rural to urban areas before even my parents were born [statista.com] and yet the best-selling vehicle here has been the ford F-series pickup truck for as long as I can remember. As recently as 2021 at least, the #2 and #3 slots were other pickup trucks. And similarly ridiculously large, hulking, wasteful SUVs, and even more pickup trucks, dominate the rest of t
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All completely correct. But there's nothing at all which fits the consumer who isn't self-deluding in the way you describe. Surely if a car only appealed to 10% of the market, but was 1 car in a market of 20, it would do twice as well as any other?
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We will never change the mindset to buy larger vehicles until the cost of gasoline rises significantly, and for an extended period. The average federal gas tax in Europe is about $2.50 per gallon, while the US has a $0.18 federal gas tax. If gasoline had been $2-3 more expensive per gallon for the past couple decades, we would see far more fuel efficient cars. Less urban sprawl too. Make a tank full of gas for those F150s $150 instead of $80, and that Civic or Camry Hybrid starts to look far more appealing.
". . . and its parent company, Hyundai" (Score:4, Insightful)
Sorry, But... (Score:2)
Cars built in the USA do not have a great reputation for the 94.5% of humanity from outside there. I believe that the USSR had similar build quality problems. Is there a connection?
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Re: Sorry, But... (Score:1)
Market distortion (Score:2)
More market distortion to trick you into believing EVs are remotely price competitive with ICEs.