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China Technology

World's Top Chip Equipment Suppliers Halt Business With China (ft.com) 98

Posted by msmash from the cutting-ties dept.
Leading chip equipment suppliers have suspended sales and services to semiconductor manufacturers in China, as new US export controls disrupt the Chinese tech industry and global companies' operations. From a report: Lam Research, Applied Materials and KLA Corporation, US companies which hold dominant shares in certain segments of the semiconductor manufacturing process, have all taken immediate measures to comply with the new rules, according to several people with direct knowledge of the matter. ASML, the Netherlands-based global leader in chipmaking equipment, has told its US staff to stop serving all Chinese customers while it assesses the sanctions.

The new restrictions, announced on Friday last week, ban the export to China of US semiconductor equipment that cannot be provided by any foreign competitor. They also impose a licence requirement for exports of US tools or components to China-based fabrication plants, or fabs, that make advanced chips, and for exports of items used to develop Chinese homegrown chip production equipment. They also require any US citizen or entity to seek permission from the Department of Commerce for providing support to Chinese fabs.
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World's Top Chip Equipment Suppliers Halt Business With China More

World's Top Chip Equipment Suppliers Halt Business With China

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  • All this is going to do... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    .. is force China to is steal our chip making technology... starting with the core, raw, materials: potato seeds.

    Ghod forbid they understand the secret formula for Sour Cream & Onion, or BBQ!

  • I would suspect this will not be entirely effective, as they will just go through shell companies in other countries.

    • Hurts in the short term, helps in the long term (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      This will hurt China in the short term, but helps China in the long term.

      If we don't sell chip-making tech to China, this is simply incentive for them to develop the equipment on their own, and they absolutely will prioritize this. In the long run, they'll have chip making equipment, and we will have nothing to do with it.

      • Let them develop their own then.

        We should not have let IBM he,p the Nazis. Why is it good to let them help China?

        "We shouldn't bother trying to stop murderers by keeping them from having knives. They will just make their own knives so it is better if we make a buck off of them for every kill".

      • This will hurt China in the short term, but helps China in the long term.

        If we don't sell chip-making tech to China, this is simply incentive for them to develop the equipment on their own, and they absolutely will prioritize this. In the long run, they'll have chip making equipment, and we will have nothing to do with it.

        Came to say pretty much this - it's the whole "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger" thing. That said, I don't think there's much of a choice here - continuing to support China in any way when they've been caught screwing over the US just isn't on.

        Also, consider that when they develop useful advanced tech, the US can then steal it from them. All's fair in love and war. And commerce - let's not forget commerce!

      • Re:Hurts in the short term, helps in the long term (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Vintermann ( 400722 ) on Thursday October 13, 2022 @04:40PM (#62964379) Homepage

        First, it's nothing new. The US has stopped ASML (which is a Dutch company, by the way) from selling extreme UV lithography machines to China since 2019.
        Second, China has by no means assuming foreign markets will always be there with the supply they need (unlike certain countries who love outsourcing). They are claiming to develop their own EUV technology, and have managed to clone Taiwan's N7 node without it.

    • Re:A mere inconvenience (Score:5, Insightful)

      by RobinH ( 124750 ) on Thursday October 13, 2022 @02:21PM (#62963847) Homepage
      While that's possible, it's not that likely. Russia kind of upped the sanction pressure worldwide, and everyone's paying attention now. The world knows that US is very likely to enforce sanctions against any company and/or country that violates them, so nobody wants to chance it. Also, there's the old saying, "if China's your only friend, you have no friends." Nobody's that willing to help out a country showing aggressive tendencies in the wake of Russia, especially when the reasons everyone rushed to do business with China in the first place are no longer valid reasons.
      • China is not Russia, especially when it comes to its influence in East Asia which incidentally is a home for 75% of world fab capacity. While US can impose administrative sanctions, physical export controls are out of reach.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by RobinH ( 124750 )
          Even before these sanctions, China was unable to keep up with Taiwan's semiconductor capabilities. The best it could do was steal some 7 nm IP and build a partially capable line. That was with easy access to IP by having a government funded program designed to scoop up IP worldwide and funnel it to Chinese companies. On top of IP and EUV equipment you also need all kinds of gases, materials, knowledge, etc., which isn't easy to get your hands on, especially now with sanctions in place. If China couldn't

          • Especially with huge supplies of certain gasses required by semi-conductor fabs currently tied up in the Russia-Ukraine conflict (being that they are in the ground of Ukraine).

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by RobinH ( 124750 )
              Good point, and I didn't even realize at the time I posted a week ago how seriously the export restrictions would affect American citizens working for Chinese chip companies. China imports almost all of its expertise, so this development is huge.

        • which incidentally is a home for 75% of world fab capacity

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

          Note that Japan and Taiwan are US allies. Not amount of hand-waving at what region they are in will reduce US influence there.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by cj* ( 149112 )

      Harder than it seems.

      Export controls try to restrict that, including a history of pretty substantial punishment for people and companies that don't ensure that the final customer is on the "Sanctioned Counties" list.

      "criminal penalties can include up to 20 years of imprisonment and up to $1 million in fines per violation, or both. Administrative monetary penalties can reach up to $300,000 per violation or twice the value of the transaction, whichever is greater."

  • Proof... (Score:3)

    by sit1963nz ( 934837 ) on Thursday October 13, 2022 @02:18PM (#62963827)
    Just more proof the rest of the world needs to wean their reliance on trade/services/goods from the larger countries.
  • What if ASML decide to continue doing business with China?
    Will the US government ban US companies from using ASML equipment?
    If so, would that mean US companies would not be able to make the next generation of high end chips?
    • The ASML facilities and engineers live and work in Silicon Valley. ASML would also lose access to their tiered suppliers, most of which are also out of Silicon Valley.

    • It is technically the Dutch government which has forbidden ASML from selling EUV lithography machines to China. Because the US has told them to and they're not terribly independent. That's also why there's little risk that they will stop selling EUV technology to the US.

      I don't think the Travis Kalanick strategy of "ignore laws and ask permission afterwards" would work very well for ASML. They probably can't even risk lobbying for permission to sell to China.

      • Do you have a source that indicates that the Dutch government is involved in this?
        Story just indicates that ASML

        has told its US staff to stop serving all Chinese customers while it assesses the sanctions

        • Replying to myself as you appear to be correct. I found this story from 2019 https://www.electronicdesign.c... [electronicdesign.com]

          The company has already been forced to stop selling the $150 million EUV machines to China. Shipments to China have been blocked since 2019 because the Netherlands is withholding an export license, allegedly under pressure from the U.S.

          At that time they could still sell DUV(Deep Ultraviolet) machines but not EUV(Extreme Ultraviolet).

          • It very complicated here with lots of countries involved. The lenses (DUV) or mirrors (EUV) come from a German company (Zeiss). The light sources for both DUV and EUV are from a US-based company (Cymer - which ASML bought a few years back). I'm pretty sure export control laws can apply to the final destination, so ASML could integrate parts into the tool that cause the entire tool to have export restrictions. The optics and light sources are just the two most important examples. These tools have a lot of

    • You can fantasize about the US not being an important player in international trade and the technology industry, but... nobody will care.

  • Poking the bear (Score:5, Funny)

    by muh_freeze_peach ( 9622152 ) on Thursday October 13, 2022 @02:19PM (#62963835)
    "The world is on the edge of catastrophic conflict, so lets see how far we can push it." - Every Country's Government

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by timeOday ( 582209 )
      Well this is why catastrophe is so hard to avoid. As the odds of conflict rise, how stupid would we be to share high tech with China and remain reliant on their exports? Yet taking precautions means cutting them off, thus antagonizing them further, and weakening the economic ties that incentivize us to keep the peace. So we are getting sucked into this downward spiral, both preparing for what we both don't want.

      • Except we know China does want this according to their long-term plans. They've been making every move you could possibly make as a nation to spark a global conflict over the last 20 years without actually firing the guns, so to speak. Many of the things they have done just in the last decade have more than met the criteria for a declaration of war.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Joviex ( 976416 )

      "The world is on the edge of catastrophic conflict, so lets see how far we can push it." - Every Country's Government

      How much paranoia you have. Stay mad I guess.

  • a missed opportunity (Score:3, Interesting)

    by OrangeTide ( 124937 ) on Thursday October 13, 2022 @02:22PM (#62963849) Homepage Journal

    now that China is forced to depend on itself or at least non-Western nations, it is no longer possible for the US to insert monitoring or flaws into critical chip making infrastructure.

    We no longer have the ability to disrupt Chinese tech during war time. Good job Biden.

    • One word⦠or perhaps two⦠bootleg windows.

    • RISC-V happened so the battlefield changed.

    • We no longer have the ability to disrupt Chinese tech during war time.

      Do you have any evidence that we've been doing that already? I'm just asking because a) waiting for a war before we start putting the flaws in would be too late, and b) waiting for a war to start disrupting chip making would be too late.

      So indifferent job Biden. You removed the ability for the US to do something irrelevant.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by OrangeTide ( 124937 )

        Stuxnet worm targeting Iran's nuclear program. Was likely developed and deployed by the West.
        A reported similar attempt against North Korea's nuclear program failed and may have revealed the US's cyber warfare capabilities in the process.
        A very difficult to confirm 1980's cloak-and-dagger where Soviet spies stole software that was actually a trojan and was blamed for damage to a Trans-Siberian gas pipeline.

        Other incidents of the US's cyber warfare. Base on either what is known or at least theorized with bac

        • Stuxnet worm targeting Iran's nuclear program. Was likely developed and deployed by the West.

          Indeed it was. By an insider. But I feel like you missed the point. We're not at war with Iran. The things you're postulating allow us to upset production. Unless we are already upsetting production of chips it would have *zero* impact on a war as chips are not a continuously consumable resource during a war.

          Now if you wanted to talk about disrupting power infrastructure or fuel then we'd have something relevant and important.

          • as chips are not a continuously consumable resource during a war.

            Industrial mobilization during war time requires that all components for warfighting equipment and infrastructure be available in order to repair, maintain, and replace vital equipment. You can shove it all in a warehouse for the worst case duration of a war. Or you can have factories that you control making it. These must be defended as they become targets during a war (history book can confirm this for you).

            Modern chip manufacturing does warehousing for industrial and military grade chips according to con

  • Not sure what is the new requirements but the export ban for the good stuff went into place in 2018.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by cj* ( 149112 )

      Support and maintenance are products also.

      • Yuuup. Good good. That is a major pain to yield.

      • This doesn't just target support and maintenance, but the big ticket development centers like EE/SE engineers and chip designers. I read an article on this the other day, and one company in China lost it's entire 1400 member workforce of engineers, programmers, and designers (read: every member of the company that wasn't something like HR or janitorial staff) when this went into effect. Several other companies also lost their staff.

  • As we retreat into our corners... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Petersko ( 564140 ) on Thursday October 13, 2022 @03:12PM (#62964079)

    It's going to get ugly. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the decision making around this. I think everybody's doing their best to deal with a very complex world. But there's a reckoning coming. The world is dividing into three groups - China, "The west", and "the rest". And it's going to get ugly.

    I thought this period of relative peace would stretch past the end of my life. I'm 52, though, and while it's lasting long enough to secure my retirement (saving for complete collapse), I think I'm going to have a very "entertaining" world to watch once I've got the time. I'm going to have to secure myself a few more kilograms of popcorn before then...

    • Uh, what gave you the idea this was a period of peace?

      Humans have pretty much always been at war, recovering from the last war or preparing for the next war.

      Just the major wars the US has had since the beginning of the last century: ww1, ww2, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, more Iraq because the first time was so fun, Afghanistan for 20 years and now a hot proxy war with Russia using Ukrainians as mercenaries with American weapons.

      In between and during each of those were countless lesser conflicts, CIA overthrows, an

      • You missed the word "relative".

        • I didn't. There is no such thing. People getting blown up or shot or stabbed or burned or sliced to ribbons in large numbers for living on the wrong side of a border would not agree that their war time deaths were relatively peaceful.

          Please explain how we live in relatively peaceful times. Compared to when?

          It is ok to be historically ignorant if you're willing to learn but don't die on this hill. More people have died in conflicts since the start of ww1 then all previous times combined. We are in the

          • Sigh... fine. I'll give this one more moment of attention.

            Google, "is the 20th century the most peaceful time in history?" And while it's not simple - hence your reply - you may learn quite a lot.

            https://history.howstuffworks.... [howstuffworks.com]

            • Oh my god. You think because we got a postal system or some such from the mongols that meant it was a peaceful time?

              Jfc.

              Your article says nothing that demonstrates this is a time of peace.

              Here's something with actual data not your fluffy nonsense.

              https://www.vox.com/2015/6/23/... [vox.com]

              600 years of death statistics. You notice a pattern? I'll help you out. There has never been a period of "relative" peace in 600 years. Humans world wide slaughtered each other and continue to do so.

              Your ennui attitude is not a

    • This is China's chance to prove their proponents right, and develop their own home-grown process technology.

      They may also have to make efficient programming popular again. Maybe they can hire some Slashdot curmudgeons. I mean, I miss memory efficiency too, but I just bought a 4GB SODIMM for $10, and I was thinking about what it was like buying 4 megabytes of RAM back when I got into computing... the memory is about five orders of magnitude cheaper now not even counting inflation. And surely some still older

      • Older coots like myself didn't talk about KB of memory in those days. Bytes were not really a thing so much back then, not that bytes didn't exist, but they didn't have a fixed size and were mostly about characters. Everything instead was phrased in terms of words. First computer I ever touched had 8K core... that would be 8k of 16-bit words. A Data General Nova that I messed with had 4KW core -- the machine that lost out to the PDP-11 internally within DEC. That's the machine that really got people talking

  • Interfering the business between two foreign countries.

    • This is how smart you are: You think the country in the world with the most friends, allies, and influence isn't like by anybody at all.

  • The ball point pen (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Gavino ( 560149 ) on Thursday October 13, 2022 @05:38PM (#62964551)
    If you think that China can "easily" develop this tech themselves, then do yourself a favour and search "China ball point pen" - the Washington Post story on it is particularly good.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      China has been working on it for a few years and it's starting to show results. They lured away a lot of skilled people from Taiwan with big money, and made building up cutting edge fabrication technology a national priority.

  • They could have contaminated the supplies to ruin the equipment.
  • Lam Research, Applied Materials and KLA Corporation are lobbying Congress for protectionist legislation against upstart Chinese semiconductor tool manufacturers that are undercutting their prices world wide.

  • I applied to work at KLA a long time ago. They literally and actually asked me in the interview "Are you willing to work at least 60 hours a week?" I did not get the job.

  • China produces 7nm chips using Chinese fab equipment and starts mass producing chips for 1/4 the price of their competitors causing a collapse in the world semiconductor market.

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