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China Transportation

Will Made-in-China EV's Bring New Competition for Automakers? (msn.com) 146

Posted by EditorDavid from the competing-cars dept.
The Washington Post reports: China is already a huge manufacturer of electric vehicles for its own market, and it is increasingly making EVs for overseas buyers, too. Made-in-China EVs are hitting U.S. dealerships and European auto shows, providing new competition to Western and Japanese automakers that have long dominated the global vehicle market.
Examples from the article:
  • Polestar 2, from "an automaker headquartered in Sweden and controlled by Chinese billionaire Li Shufu... The company says it will start manufacturing its next model, the Polestar 3, in the United States in 2024."
  • Nio ET7, "an EV company founded in Shanghai by entrepreneur William Li. The company is selling its ET7 sedan in the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, and Norway, and has said it aims to enter the U.S. market in 2025."
  • China's largest automaker, the state-owned SAIC, "bought the British MG brand in the early 2000s and is now selling several electric MG models in Europe."

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Will Made-in-China EV's Bring New Competition for Automakers? More

Will Made-in-China EV's Bring New Competition for Automakers?

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  • Tech lead. (Score:2, Offtopic)

    by AlanObject ( 3603453 )

    Elon's prediction that made him require Tesla to develop FSD and other leading edge tech turns out to be true. Tesla has a big lead but everyone wants that space now. Sure today they are hard to buy but driving around Fremont (Tesla factory town) these days it is not uncommon to see 4-5 EVs that are not Tesla.

    So WTF is he doing with bullshit Twitter adventure. It wasn't supposed to affect TSLA but it clearly does. The investment community thinks he is totally off the rails and it is harder each da

    • The thing Musk has... is size and momentum. He is too big to fail, and even if Tesla is fed cash via IV, similar to how Amazon didn't make a profit for a very long time, it will be kept going, until just through cash alone, it ekes out a market.

      Tesla has one thing right. No dealers. A co-worker ordered his Tesla on the web. No issues, and had an electrician install a couple chargers. This sure as heck beats trying to tell a high-pressure salesperson that you are not paying $10,000 over sticker, just to

      • The thing Musk has... is size and momentum. He is too big to fail, and even if Tesla is fed cash via IV, similar to how Amazon didn't make a profit for a very long time, it will be kept going, until just through cash alone, it ekes out a market.

        The same was once true of phone giants Nokia and Blackberry. Unexpected competition suddenly sank both of these manufacturers in a matter of a few years even though they had first-mover advantage and were scaled up to leverage discounts from parts suppliers. The same

        • This is why car dealerships persist.

          That's why used car dealerships exist. New car dealerships persist even though everyone hates them because the dealers bought themselves protectionist laws.

          • All new-car dealerships also sell used cars. Especially nowadays with new-car supply constrained. Used cars give dealerships higher margins and provide a fuller spectrum of choices to any customer that steps foot on the new-car dealership lot.

      • 'no dealers' also backfires on you. NO REPAIRS. essentially long long waits for repairs and parts. no - I mean zero - customer service. cant even CALL them.

        I cant wait to sell my tesla. when the kia cars get to the next level (a year or so, maybe) it will be time to jump. until then, I do my best to avoid even driving my model 3, since if it gets in an accident, it will be out of commission for MONTHS.

        I hate having a car that you worry about driving. if fear of repairs stops you, then the car is just

        • I feel sorry for you that you think having a Kia dealership to keep your car running will be an improvement over Tesla.
      • Amazon didn't make a profit for a long time because it kept plowing its money back into expansion, and because the margins on retail sales are low. Their real cash cow is AWS; they're running a substantial fraction of the internet now and making boatloads of money doing it.

    • The Twitter thing will blow over and people will forget why they are mad. It's not a big deal, the previous management at Twitter wasn't great.

    • ob disc: I used to work for nio

      tesla has ancient software and it shows its age. they cant maintain it, it gets more and more buggy as time goes on and their architecture runs out of steam (lack of sensors and computes is the main problem. no, scratch that; elon is the main problem).

      the user interface of the tesla continues to go downhill.

      they remove sensors and try to tell us its for our benefit. LOL. they think we're that dumb?

      they dont use standard (like autosar) software so anything they do, they hav

    • Three or four different companies can now say âoewe are paying Musk a giant salary for what? Part time?â

  • Seems the U.S. will just ban the sales of them here in the name of national security.

    Otherwise an international market will force U.S. automakers to get their ducks in a row.

    • Re:Ban Them (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Tablizer ( 95088 ) on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:50PM (#63082030) Journal

      It is true that if they have digital navigation systems, they are a likely target of Xi's snooping itch. An alternative is to supply just the physical parts and let local co's add the digital interfaces.

      It would thus help the Chinese manufactures to form component standards so local shops can easily configure for local needs in a Lego-esque fashion. Then the cheaper labor rates in China would give them an edge on parts and components. They then wouldn't have to compete on full-out systems. (The gov't keeps rates artificially low, knowing unemployed people are more likely to overthrow dictators,.)

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by fermion ( 181285 )
      It didnâ(TM)t happen. The US only has Ford and GM due to massive taxpayer bailouts. Chrysler is a foreign subsidiary corporation.

      We lost the big three grandparents. Studebaker, Oldsmobile, packard. All the marques created in the postwar period and beyond failed.

      The MG looks like a good car. It it can be sold for $25k it will be a winner. Soon Tesla will have to compete with Mercedes which make the safest most rock solid car in the world. History is not kind in the chances Tesla has to succeed.

    • Yep, "Automobiles containing Chinese tech present an unacceptable security risk." in 3, 2, 1...

      Basically, the USA & whoever they can arm-twist into joining them are engaging in a trade war with China. That's all there is to it. The rest is post-hoc rationalisations.

  • Everybody's got a plan.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mschuyler ( 197441 ) on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:29PM (#63082002) Homepage Journal

    Everybody's got a plan until they get hit--Mike Tyson.

    When you can buy these new EVs off the show room floor, let me know. Until then, they effectively do not exist. Meanwhile, Tesla is on track to deliver a million EVs this year.

    • This was my thought too so I read TFA looking for what info "hitting U.S. dealerships" was spinning, because I doubted it meant they were for sale. Didn't see any other reference to it.

    • When you can buy these new EVs off the show room floor

      You can. Some already in America (Polestar has showrooms in several states): https://www.polestar.com/us/pr... [polestar.com] I also see this car a lot on the streets in Europe.
      Others as TFS states are only in Europe so far: https://www.mgmotor.eu/nl-NL/c... [mgmotor.eu]
      And while you can buy a Nio in the Netherlands online: https://www.nio.com/nl_NL/conf... [nio.com] The first Nio showroom in the Netherlands is still under construction so you may need to drive to another country if you want to try before you buy.

      By the way Polestar outsold Tesl

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      The Polestar 2 has been on sale in Europe for years. Despite what the summary says, it's actually a Volvo.

      It's a very nice car. Volvo build quality and drive. Android Auto powers the infotainment. Big battery, fast charging.

  • with inferior electronics and poor quality parts & workmanship i doubt anyone would want to buy a chinese EV

    • If the EVs are good as the Buick Envision [wikipedia.org], US companies will have a lot to worry about.

    • I won't think of buying an EV until they are at least priced around the same as an ICE. For me it seems an equal tradeoff that you always need a place to charge them. When that happens I may get a small one to drive to town and back so I don't wear out my SUV. A chinese one may fit the bill. I'm not that concerned about quality and workmanship because EVs are very simple compared to ICEs.

      • I won't think of buying an EV until they are at least priced around the same as an ICE.

        I was wondering what bullshit excuse you'd come up with next. Your reasons for not buying an EV change pretty much with every post. Every time they are silly, including this time where you consider an underlying technology to be in parity instead of e.g. the very real performance uplift you get, or the reduced noise.

        But hey did you buy your EV yet? I mean the Model S Plaid is a whole $40k cheaper than a Mercedes AMG-GT and also annihilates it on the track. And it's about 1/4 of the price of a Ferrari SF90 a

        • When you live where the roads are covered with ice 7 months out of the year, high torque is not something you look for in a daily driver. I sold my muscle car a couple years ago. Besides, it's not much fun when you know you are hurting your battery with every traffic light launch.
    • another ignorant one making the bigoted mistake everyone made previously with Japanese and Korean cars.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Askmum ( 1038780 )
      Peoply are buying them. Lync & CO is not Swedish, it is Chinese. MG is not British, it is Chinese. Then there's Aiways, BYD, JAC, Nio, all Chinese manufacturers that sell EVs that actually sell. Don't know about the USA, but in Europe you will find them driving around.

      Now what I'm more interested in is how connected these cars are and if they keep working even when China thinks it has enough of the western world and goes for actual world domination. Or is this too much tinfoilhattery.

  • Mass EV's are not just practical yet. The current infrastructure cannot support them. I predict hybrids will become the dominant form of new cars in the next 10 years. Hybrids also have the advantage of being plug-chargeable if desired, making them a better hedge: you can dip into the gasoline pool and/or the electrical grid as needed.

    • Mass adoption will take a while so the current infrastructure supports EVs just fine. The infrastructure is expanding very day to meet demand. Hybrids are the worst of both worlds unless its a plug hybrid and you only drive in EV mode. You get worst MPG in ICE mode due to extra weight

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Europe proves otherwise. Especially Norway. Big country, harsh climate.

    • The infrastructure is fine. Not great, but good enough. The real problem is cost. If you want 300+ miles of range in a pure EV, that just costs too damn much (or manufacturers have to lie about their prices, as Tesla has done for years).

      Frankly, I'm really disappointed that plug-in hybrids haven't been improving or taken seriously. Ariel recently announced a sport car with a turbine engine as a backup generator, which is something I've been thinking about for over 20 years. I heard rumors of Mazda usin

      • I'd like to see an EV manufacturer that also rents
        small backup motors that you can use to go on a vaction,
        while not dragging that extra weight around while
        commuting.

      • Why are plug-in hybrids with small batteries not a thing?
           

        They are a thing.
        An expensive thing.

    • More than 80 % of new cars in Norway are EVs. Works fine. Chargers are popping up everywhere.

  • The deciding answer will be: (Score:3)

    by Otis B. Dilroy III ( 2110816 ) on Saturday November 26, 2022 @09:01PM (#63082042)
    What do American insurance companies have to say about the matter?

    • Why would they have anything to say? All three cars in TFS have 5 star safety ratings in Europe and of the one already on sale in the USA it has a 5 star safety rating too. That's far more than can be said for many home grown red white and blue American cars.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Why wouldn't they? The cars for sale in Europe like the Polestar 2 and various MG models all meet European safety standards. Presumably the manufacturers will get them certified for the US as well.

  • Decades ago I remember seeing a 60 minutes piece about "Made In America" cars. Where the same car could be...

    A) Have American parts but put together in another country.
    B) Have foreign parts but put together in America.

    And yet both be advertised as "Made In America" (final construction) or "Made with American Parts" both of which are slightly deceptive to the consumer.

    It seems this hasn't gotten much better since there's an actual American-Made Index...

    https://www.cars.com/articles/... [cars.com]

    • Related anecdote: The U.S. stickers show the percentages of where the parts are from.
        In 2012 I bought a new Honda Pilot and my mother bought a new Ford Explorer. Both were assembled in the U.S., and the Pilot had a significantly higher percentage of U.S. content.

    • Re:Old 60 Minutes Episode (Score:5, Interesting)

      by hdyoung ( 5182939 ) on Saturday November 26, 2022 @10:01PM (#63082138)
      This. I can buy a Ford that's assembled by Mexicans in Mexico, or a Honda that's assembled literally down the road by Americans living in the middle of the US. Which one is American-made? Who knows?

  • They'll just get banned in the US and Europe.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ukoda ( 537183 )
      They will ban every single model from every single Chinese brand? I don't think so. Sure, many will not make the grade at first but the Chinese will learn from those that do and in a few years you will find they have 'export' versions of many of the ones already sold on the Chinese domestic market that can meet DOA and related standards.

    • The three examples from TFA have been on sale in Europe for a while. Polestar outsold Tesla in the EU 3 months this year.

  • leak electrolyte instead of oil. Progress !

  • because most will be made in the US regardless of where the company is headquartered.

  • Many people are missing the historic parallels (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ukoda ( 537183 ) on Saturday November 26, 2022 @10:54PM (#63082206) Homepage
    It is easy to dismiss Chinese cars because of the utter crap they have made in the past. However it was only a few decades ago people had the same view of Japanese cars. However the Chinese have realised the same thing the Japanese did years ago, that there is no future in making crap vehicles just so you can sell them cheap.

    The one most under estimated is BYD. They have been making credible BEVs for about as long as Tesla. 10 years ago when I was living in China I had a BYD F0. It was a fun car to drive and the build quality was ok. I have a Tesla now but I would quite happy recommend people look at the BYD Atto 3 as they appear to be great value for money.

    People talk about Tesla killers every time an interesting new BEV is launched, which is such bullshit. The only automaker that could kill Tesla now is Tesla, by doing something dumb, a bit like Toyota is doing to themselves now. The reality is the automotive market is so big that no company can kill another established company, it is only about how much market share they can get. This is where China and Japan are on opposite paths. The unfulfilled demand for affordable BEVs is likely to see the Chinese brands that understand how to meet export quality requirements become significant players. You only have to look at automotive British history to see what lays in store for the Japanese auto makers if they don't start evolving quicker.

    In a decade I think you will have about four major Chinese brands competing with Tesla, GM and Ford from the USA, the VW group of brands and Mercedes from Europe and Nissan from Japan. For most other brands they will historic footnotes if they don't lift their game real soon. The longer they leave it the less likely they are to be around. Personally I have long like Suzuki's small vehicles and makes me sad to see they are one of the most likely to disappear if they stay on their current path.

    • Im betting Mazda's new electric range will be kick arse, their quality and reliability is top notch, look at the new plug in CX60 hybrid for example, andvthe good but range limited MX30.
      Nissan stopped innovating during the GPC and have been speeding backwards ever since, I see no hope for them at all..

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ukoda ( 537183 )
        Mazda do make good cars and the MX30 looks ok to me, half the battle with early BEVs. It has not review well, which is a shame. Hopeful that will not put them off as all companies have to start somewhere. Nissan apparently have fixed many of the battery life sins since their earlier Leafs but are, here anyway, over priced compared with a Tesla, so don't sell well. I think the issue is more the local dealer network that Nissan in Japan. I have mostly owned Japanese cars so I have been disappointing with

        • It is however a sin to use the MX name for that thing, it belongs to what you guys call the Miata, a brilliant car.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by ukoda ( 537183 )
            Hey, don't call me "you guys"! My dad had a MX-5 and he heard it call many things. The most common was "a hair dresser's car", but dad didn't care, too much fun. Never heard it called a Miata before. Probably what they call it in the USA, they have weird names for many common models.

    • It's a shame China and India hate each other so much. An Indian-designed and built car with Chinese electronics could be quite good and affordable, combining the best of both countries' capabilities. When it comes to things like supply-chain integrity, India is almost at the same level as the US (the best-quality American stuff is still better, but when you get down to average-quality "Chevy-level" stuff normal people buy, they're pretty much equal.

      If an Indian company seeks out quality parts, it can genera

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ukoda ( 537183 )
        I can't speak for India but I would love to say you were wrong about China. Unfortunately I can't. While most business dealings in China seem to go ok I do recall our company got shafted big time by someone who you wouldn't expect it from. The manufacture of a UL certified PSU would not sell directly to us as our volumes were not high enough, instead telling us to go thru a specific reseller of their product. That reseller substituted counterfeit PSUs that were detect at US customs and our company was p

    • The problem is not that china *can't* turn out quality product, per se. The problem is that china, by and large, can't be *bothered* to produce quality product. If you want good kit out of china, you can get it. You just have to send in your own quality control people to ride herd on the factory management and workers. Withdraw those (foreign) QC people though, and they'll go right back to producing disposable crap.

      See, for example, the saga of the Thinkpad. Back when it was IBM branded (already manufac

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ukoda ( 537183 )
        Firstly the important things, That eraser thing on the old IBM laptop, it gave me a sore finger, I don't miss it.

        Generally you are right about quality control. When I was living in China our company did well because we made a point of putting our QA people on site at suppliers. However with good suppliers that became a token thing as the senior people inside the company came to realise what it took to make stuff we would accept. We usually sent larger teams to new suppliers and just one person to tho
  • No mention of BYD? They're one of the largest producers of electric vehicles in China.

    • They are rarer than hen's teeth outside of China. The three mentioned in TFS are on sale in Europe. I basically can't drive to work without seeing a Polestar at some point in my drive. BYD on the other hand seems to have focused on commercial interests. I've only ever seen 1 BYD on the road, and that belonged to my neighbour who... worked for BYD and drove it as a company car. On the flip side I see BYD busses, and BYD vans quite frequently. Heck the entire fleet of Schiphol airport (Europe's second or thir

  • FWIW (Score:2)

    by xlsior ( 524145 )
    ...Japanese cars used to be a joke as well, until they weren't.

    No reason China can't become a dominant player in the EV market before we know it.
  • I test-drove an MG 4 a couple of weeks ago.

    Excellent car, better than I expected, 250 mile range, half the price of a Tesla, delivery time 8 weeks. None of the Western legacy auto makers can make a car that good, at that price, in that volume.

    I would have placed an order, except the Missus said to wait for the MG 5 in a few weeks, because we need a bigger vehicle than the MG 4.

    Pro tip: the MG 5 is barely more expensive than the MG 4. In other words, really excellent value for money.

  • The US makes everything in their power so that they can't build-in powerful chips in their cars. :-)

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • While western automakers are on a crusade to make more and more expensive cars with more and more questionable features, Chinese firms tend to spend their customers money more on things that actually benefit them.

    I mean just look at a Minghong SEV2:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

  • EVs, no apostrophe
    Brought to Your Attention by the Committee to Save the Apostrophe from Abuse

  • China is now dumping these EVs on markets, while subsidizing them ( few pay for electricity, have easy access to no interest loans, etc ). Keep in mind that in 2016/7, BYD brought some EVs to Chicago area. They were pure crap. Could not believe that BYD thought they could dump them here and succeed. However, that was 6 years ago. Since then, not only has Chinese gov required western companies to turn over their parents to Chinese gov ( which then was used by ALL Chinese companies), but Tesla's manufacturing
  • Few countries have more experience with EVs than Norway. Several chinese brands are available, and some are reasonably popular. There have been no indication that they are low quality. There is a mandatory 5 years warranty here, so selling crap cars is not a good idea.

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