Dell To Purge Chinese Chips From Products By Next Year (theregister.com) 76
Dell looks set to stop using chips from China in its products by 2024, according to reports. The move appears to be part of a wider effort to shift its supply chains away from the country in response to the ongoing tensions between China and the US. From a report: The PC and tech infrastructure maker has told suppliers to significantly reduce the volume of components sourced from China in its products, including those made in the country by non-Chinese manufacturers, according to a report in Nikkei Asia, which cites anonymous sources "with direct knowledge of the matter." Those sources claim that Dell is aiming to eliminate all chips manufactured inside China from its products by the close of next year. The move could be seen as a direct result of growing concerns in the industry over Washington's policies regarding China and access to advanced computer technology, which it says it wants to keep out of the hands of the Chinese military.
Groundbreaking (Score:2)
When was the last time, if ever, a PC was built without Chinese chips?
One could easily see this as step 1. Step 2 is lobby the government for a non-Chinese component purchasing requirement. Step 3: Profit!
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When was the last time, if ever, a PC was built without Chinese chips?
Dunno if my scratch-buit-from-leftovers BBS machines from the 90's had china chips in them. But I do remember seeing lots of made-in-usa in it. Cyrix CPU, Texas Instruments and National Semiconductor were the names I remember on those.. and I"m relatively certain all the chips in there were made in usa. I remember "USA" on the silkscreen on the chips. These were a pair of 386s i had built to run my BBS.
Some people forget that once upon a time, we used to make all this.. it wasn't 'til the late 90's that American manufacturing was betrayed by selling / sending it all to china.
Or, some people never lived that era, so they simply Don't Know.
I hope the people, both civilian and government, who sold out this country's manufacturing base feel warm and fuzzy.. I hope they enjoy it, because they've destroyed our manufacturing capacity and made us dependent on governments who actively wish the US ill.
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It became too expensive to keep making more advanced chips. You can build a fab capable of producing 386 era chips for under $5 million today.
4nm will cost you $20 billion per fab and you probably won't get it right on the first try.
So even mammoths like IBM chose to consolidate and spun off Global Foundries with AMD. Everyone else went fabless.
It's easy, TSMC produces high tech., Intel produce Intel, Samsung plays catchup with TSMC but doesn't care about volume. GF produces yesterday.
SMIC make
Taiwan ROC (Score:2, Interesting)
I think this kind of thing will just speed up China's assertion of power over Taiwan. It is still Taiwan Republic of China after all. Won't be long before China decides that TSMC and Foxconn need to be fully part of China.
Re:Taiwan ROC (Score:5, Interesting)
It won't happen. The US, Japan, and several other countries are willing to militarily call their bluff on Taiwan.
We are giving a lot of material aid to Ukraine which in the grand scheme of things isn't really all that important of a country. China controlling Taiwan basically all of the world's semiconductor industry is a move that we can't allow.
There's a reason why China hasn't actually tried to take Taiwan in 70 years: trying to take control of Taiwan means actual war and they know it.
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It will happen.
China has gotten to a point in time where they can win an actual war against the US and they know it. They'd rather just absorb them without a military conflict, but I can't imagine they are going to wait much longer.
Re:Taiwan ROC (Score:4, Interesting)
What do you mean by "winning?" It's pretty hard to imagine PRC successfully invading Taiwan and then negotiating a settlement with the United States as things stand right now. Certainly it's within China's ability to destroy Taiwan (nuclear weapons, possibly with conventional weapons), but that doesn't exactly seem like winning.
There's about 100 miles of water between PRC and Taiwan. How would the PRC deliver the needed men and materiel across 100 miles of water to one of the most militarized areas of the world? There are more than 2 million active duty and reserves military personnel in Taiwan, compared to 2 million active duty PRC and 2 million reserves. Taiwan has access to most of the latest and greatest military tech thanks to its friendship with the United States. And most importantly, the United States has made it clear (or as clear as policy gets on Taiwan) that it will defend Taiwan militarily from Chinese aggression.
I have to imagine that the Chinese see what's going in Ukraine right now and don't want any piece of that. Ukraine, before the invasion, had an army less than 1/3 the size of Russia with substantially less military equipment, mostly cold war surplus. And yet with limited support of equipment (no personnel) they're holding off a country with a 700 mile long land border with them. Now we see Putin just lobbing missiles over to kill Ukrainians and make the rest miserable, all the while rattling the saber about nuclear weapons, as his country becomes an international pariah and slips back 40 years.
The PRC has a lot more to lose than Russia and a much smaller chance of succeeding. They'll keep trying to steal technology and coerce Taiwan to join the PRC, but it would be crazy for them to actually try to invade.
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Well, you need only look at what happened in Afghanistan, what is happening in Ukraine to find your answer.
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Soo... we'll give them all the weapons they want, but we'll pull out if we don't win after 20 years? Sounds pretty good deal to me if I'm in Taiwan.
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That's silly. No nuclear power can "beat" another in all-out war. Everybody loses.
In a strictly conventional war, the US probably couldn't invade China. China definitely couldn't invade the US. Projecting power is hard, and expensive. The US has spent seventy years building up a system of power projection that's completely unique in the world. The US spends three times as much on their military as does China, and until recently has outspent C
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Nuclear power has been nothing but a deterrent since Nagasaki, so it really comes down to who is going to cross that line again. I'd bet my bottom dollar that someone in China, Russia, North Korea, or Iran is willing to cross it first.
China is not looking to invade the US. They have no need or desire to defeat us militarily. They can do it economically and politically.
Taiwan is another story. They will invade Taiwan at some point, unless Taiwan decides to willingly subjugate themselves to Beijing. China cou
Re: Taiwan ROC (Score:1)
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i am willing to divide your /.uid by 100 for this post
best i can do without modpoints
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What have you been smoking? The ROC has 165,000 active personnel. The PRC has 2,035,000 active personnel. If we are talking about manpower reserves then you are recruiting from 24 million vs 1411 million.
As for "the latest and greatest military tech thanks to its friendship with the United States" the technology gap China has with the US is not as large as it used to be. We are way past the time when most of their air force was using MiG-21 clones while the US had the F-16 and F-15. Today they have the J-20
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I also agree that it would be foolish for the PRC to try to invade and occupy the ROC.
However, I disagree with your assessment that it is similar to the situation in Ukraine.
Sure, the ROC is an island 100 miles off the coast of the PRC. But note that the ROC also farther away from any ally than it is to the PRC, unlike Ukraine which has a land border with Poland. For any allies of the ROC to get materiel there it's going to have to sail or fly it in within land or sea based missile range of the PRC. It's
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Xi is running China, till his death, presumably, since he has pretty much abolished his retirement. And there have been various reports of stuff Xi said, which implied that he has a fixed deadline by which Taiwan must be merged with China (how is left to your imagination). Timeframes from 2035 to 2049 have been mentioned (I think the 2035 deadline was mentioned pre-covid, so maybe it's 2049 now?)
With Xi getting older, assuming he is still alife and in charge of China, what makes you think he will not just d
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Haha. The US under the likes of Biden or Obama will never attack any country that has nuclear weapons, especially China. The most you can expect is delivery of conventional weapons to Taiwan, and no US boots on the ground. Taiwan will eventually fall. The situation in Ukraine is similar: pusillanimous US refuses to even give them weapons to strike back at Russia.
Under Obama/Biden/Kerry, the US even ceded Syria to the Russians after Syria crossed a hard and fast "red line."
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They couldn't win in a direct conflict, but the US government is weak-kneed enough that they wouldn't need to risk that. If they invade during a second term of someone like Obama or Biden with no re-election to win and a split Congress with the EU in disarray and dependent, I think NATO will happily let them.
This Ukraine stuff is just testing the waters, and we're unwilling to provide direct support. We'd rather fund the personal bank account of their corrupt leaders and tell the world we did something than
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China has gotten to a point in time where they can win an actual war against the US and they know it.
Are you basing this on your perception of China's stupidity, or yours for basing military capability on who's nation's propaganda is more adamant?
Taiwan is separated from the mainland by a 100 mile moat. Last time I checked, Chinese soldiers can't march over water to overwhelm Taiwan defenses. Here's a hint: just because they built a floating barge where limited jets can launch from, doesn't mean they've built a capable warship that can project air power over a defenseless airspace.
China likes to talk big
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Are you basing this on your perception of China's stupidity, or yours for basing military capability on who's nation's propaganda is more adamant?
Talk about the pot and the kettle....Go ahead and believe whoever's propaganda you want. It won't change hard realities.
Taiwan is separated from the mainland by a 100 mile moat. Last time I checked, Chinese soldiers can't march over water to overwhelm Taiwan defenses.
During WW2, Americans marched across a much larger moat to eventually force Japan's surrender. Why do you think China has been busy militarizing the South China Sea and expanding their military? The only reason you grow a military (at least to the levels the Chinese are) is if you are worried about someone taking military action against you, or you are getting ready to take military action
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During WW2, Americans marched across a much larger moat to eventually force Japan's surrender.
The US forced Japan's surrender with nuclear weapons.
Also, China has a larger Navy than the US now.
In terms of number of vessels - yes, China has padded its numbers by fielding a great number of smaller patrol vessels with very little combat capability. In terms of tonnage the US Navy's 4.6 million dwarves the Chinese Navy's 2 million. In terms of large capital ships they are sorely lacking. China has 2 aircraft carriers. The US has 11 carriers - with the capability of pulling some more out of retirement if needed (and several other smaller vessels
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The US forced Japan's surrender with nuclear weapons.
I already made that point in previous posts, and it does nothing to negate the island-hopping campaign of WW2. In pretty all cases, the islands being assaulted had a much, much wider gulf of water between them and were extremely well-fortified.
In terms of number of vessels - yes, China has padded its numbers by fielding a great number of smaller patrol vessels with very little combat capability. In terms of tonnage the US Navy's 4.6 million dwarves the Chinese Navy's 2 million. In terms of large capital ships they are sorely lacking. China has 2 aircraft carriers. The US has 11 carriers - with the capability of pulling some more out of retirement if needed (and several other smaller vessels with aircraft launch capabilities that we don't consider full carriers).
First of all, they are not smaller patrol vessels with very little combat capability. What would be the purpose of a patrol amphibious assault ship? They are not (currently) building carrier groups to project power to the other side of the globe. Aircraft carriers ten
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You're right about the impact on our economies of the CCP invading Taiwan vs Putin invading Ukraine. However I really don't think the west will do anything militarily other than provide more arms like they're doing in Ukraine. Certainly they won't commit any troops. And I don't think China is bluffing. But talk of western military intervention certainly is bluffing. No western politician wants to start WWIII. No, they'll let China invade and there will be much ringing of hands, but no real response. M
Will sanctions against China work? (Score:3)
China taking control of TSMC impacts and potentially destroys many large American companies. For example, in the worst case, Apple immediately goes bankrupt. Furthermore, the chips that go into American weapons disappear. Are those worst-case scenarios acceptable by the US?
However, the argument that the US will be unwilling to commit to more direct military personnel or other involvement beyond supplying arms in an Ukraine-like manner is a legitimate question. The threat of WWIII might give the US pause
Re: Will sanctions against China work? (Score:2)
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"Only once did one country, Iran, decide to see if they could get rid of them"
uh-huh, you're quite the historian
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Why do you think massive amounts of companies like Dell and Apple are detaching themselves from TSMC and trying quickly to repatriate at least some production. The orders are already in, TSMC is dead in the water another 2-4 years of current White House policy and they're toast.
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Re:Will sanctions against China work? (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't think there's a roadmap to China taking over Taiwan with a fully functional and intact TSMC. There are enough anti-PRC folks in both the Taiwanese government and TSMC that sabotage would be a major problem. How much damage they'd be able to do would depend on a lot of factors. I'd imagine the EUV lithography machines would be high on the list of things to destroy in the event of an invasion and I doubt ASML would be in any big hurry to sell them new ones. It would take them years to recover. It would be a disaster for everyone on both sides and everyone on both sides knows that.
TSMC isn't the only reason that China wants Taiwan, but it's probably one of the very few things on the list that makes a diplomatic solution preferable to a military one.
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It's impossible to say with confidence whether some as-yet unknown future leader of Taiwan will call or fold if and when their own persona
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Zelensky has put a example to the whole world on how a leader should act if the country is under attack.
For any other leader to not follow his footsteps in case of attack will make such leader a laughing stock to the rest of the world, if not worst.
So yeah, I expect future Taiwan leader to stay put if China attacks and call for help. It should be a notice for all leaders of any troubled country in the world who may need help in the future from an aggressive neighbour.
Would it just be the west? (Score:3)
However I really don't think the west will do anything militarily other than provide more arms like they're doing in Ukraine. Certainly they won't commit any troops.
How confident are you that others outside the US and Europe won't get involved? How comfortable are South Korea, Japan, and other nations like the Philippines and Singapore with China invading Taiwan? Aren't those nations nervous that China may grab up other territory next?
I know North Korea and Russia would probably take China's side, but with our dependence on Taiwan, I can see a strong argument for the US and Europe to give aid, if not troops to Taiwan. I can see a strong argument for the most of
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I'd expect that the US would send a few aircraft carriers and try to sink any invasion troops before they reach Taiwan. Not sure if they would send ground troops.
The smaller Taiwanese islands close to the Chinese mainland would probably not be defendable against China. These would fall quickly.
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You underestimate the PRC's will to finish the Chinese Civil War once and for all and bury the issue for good.
The US did not recognize Taiwan as independent because the ROC never wanted to be independent (they still consider themselves to this day to have the legitimate government of the whole of China not just Taiwan), and Nixon and later leaders of the US used the status of Taiwan as a bargaining chip to get the PRC on their side against the USSR.
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Well, we aren't committing troops to Ukraine because there's no reason to - Ukraine currently is NOT a NATO member. So at best, the only reason we're providing arms to Ukraine is to preserve the free world - Ukraine is a democratic country after a
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World War 3 isn't a legitimate answer to saying a country will never go to war.
The 3 is in that name because there have literally already been two of them. Sometimes even a world war is the required action, and there certainly is a line where countries will move even when that is the consequence.
It's not a matter of if the US will start WW3 by defending Taiwan - its if China is willing to start it by ATTACKING them.
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Uh. Right. China's "bluff" on Taiwan. Like Russia's "bluff" on Ukraine. Continue thinking that.
The whole of the island of Taiwan is under Chinese MLRS range. Not even SRBM range. Which it also is covered with. China has the world's largest navy in number of surface ships, their tonnage also keeps increasing, and they are quickly getting to have the world's largest air force as well. If they wanted to invade Taiwan, they could do it, their navy has a huge amount of sea lift capability between LHDs, to LPDs,
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See Hong Kong.
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No one ever promised or implied protection for Hong Kong. Hong Kong was on a limited time lease and when the lease expired it was returned to China as originally agreed upon.
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The US agreed to call it Taiwan ROC.
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If they do wind up with Taiwan, those fab will be a smoking crater. Good luck with that.
I think people underestimate the Chinese love for money more than they love the prospect of getting Taiwan back.
Best,
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After losing to the Communists, the non-Taiwanese Nationalists occupied Taiwan, and it's those non-Taiwanese Nationalists that claimed sovereignty over all of China. The Nationalists never cared about Taiwan, and the Taiwanese people never cared about retaking the mainland. Now that the Nationalists are no longer in power, the question of sovereignty over all of China is not an issue but rather formalizing the de facto independence of Taiwan or at least guaranteeing the physical safety of Taiwan.
COVID (Score:2, Insightful)
Worse, they locked everyone down with zero plans to lift the lockdowns. To the point where the Chinese started to rebel for the 1st
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MRNA vaccines wouldn't have made such a large difference in outcomes except among their elderly. Lockdowns really hurt them. Also their medical system was likely overwhelmed more-quickly than that of various Western nations. They probably lost/are losing many treatable cases.
Reasonable precaution (Score:2)
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wishful thinking that the US government is going to take any serious actions against China over its weak support of Russia. Basically China would have to invade Taiwan before the US would do anything serious. As long as the money is flowing there isn't too much to worry about. Pinch off trade and leave them with fewer options, well we did that to the Empire of Japan and they attacked us.
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Ain't it crazy how much this century is beginning to look a whole lot like the last one?
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And the one before that, and the one before that. Nothing changes in human nature.
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Oh no, we're above wars nowadays and shocked....SHOCKED that there could be war in Europe in the 21st century...
Also, fossil fuels are the devil.
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Japan didn't have nukes, either.
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with nukes. it took 2 of them, and if they had known those were the only 2 we had, they'd have kept fighting (and still lost, but probably with much larger loss of life/destruction).
America bites back? who exactly do you think is going to go fight the Chinese to defend Taiwan? i served 13 years in the Corps through two wars, and it ain't gonna be me or any of my kids. Send your own kids to die for Taiwan.
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S/F
Taiwan is where any war China initiates is going to start.
Cutting off trade/embargos is only going to happen after that, and if those are effective, they will only drive the Chinese into a position where they have little to lose and everything to gain by directly engaging the US militarily. I highly doubt they would pull off something like Pearl Harbor (i.e. a direct attack on US soil), but they certainly won't hesitate to start sinking ships/shooting down planes in what they deem their territory. Once t
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"...in what they deem their territory."
Deeming something "your territory" is a common justification for military action. Russia "deems" Ukraine "their territory".
Your retired military, doesn't make you knowledgable on international politics. Makes you think you are, though.
"Even if they attacked US territories like Guam, I don't see any appetite in the US for a war with China..."
And you would know LOL. There's appetite for it now, depending on who you ask. Those people need to be kept from power, along
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Deeming something "your territory" is a common justification for military action. Russia "deems" Ukraine "their territory".
Call it Manifest Destiny and it sounds so much nicer. Nevermind that China has a better claim to Taiwan than we ever did for this country.
And you would know LOL. There's appetite for it now, depending on who you ask. Those people need to be kept from power, along with people who make ignorant comments like yours.
Well, I live right outside Camp Lejeune, NC and everyone in my neighborhood is a current or former Marine, and all I ever hear about is how bad the military has gotten. And I see it. Morale is lower than I ever experience during my time. Recruiting and retention problems are well documented, so you don't even have to take my word for that.
Now that sounds like personal experience. Not your kids, right?
It is personal experience. I saw
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"it took 2 of them, and if they had known those were the only 2 we had"
2 were used, it isn't known how many it "took", if any. Also, "we" had more than 2. By the time the war ended, the US had more that were not used.
"i served 13 years in the Corps through two wars, and it ain't gonna be me or any of my kids. Send your own kids to die for Taiwan."
What war will you be sending your kids to die in? How about you send them instead to history class, they deserve a better education than you got.
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It took 2 nukes to force Japan to surrender. The first one was not enough and it's pretty well established that they believed we didn't have another. After the second, they surrendered, because they thought we had more.
What war will you be sending your kids to die in?
Preferably none, but certainly not for the sake of Taiwan.
How about you send them instead to history class, they deserve a better education than you got.
I have a B.A. in History (ASU). If you paid taxes between 2010-2019, you helped pay for it + a whole lot of cool toys I bought with the excess money.
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wear the tinfoil hat! (Score:2)
TSMC Vietnam (Score:2)
So they will be looking for chips made by a chinese company but the factories are in another country, like Vietnam.
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Are you claiming that Taiwan (ROC) is the legitimate government of China? If so then yes.
Taiwan is the Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of World Geopolitics. It both is and isn't part of China. All I know is that it's "disputed" and is THE major technology hub. But, when discussing "banning computer chips from China" you are exclusively talking about Taiwan, and maybe Hong Kong.
Is TSMC a Chinese company? I honestly don't know anymore.