Boring Company Gave Free Rides Through Its Underground Vegas Tunnel During CES (fierceelectronics.com) 73
"Thousands of CES 2023 attendees tested out the Las Vegas Convention Center Loop tunnel transit system," reports Fierce Electronics, "for quick 1.7-mile trips offering them a prelude of more of the efficient tunnels to come."
The service was free during the early January event, offering 115,000 CES attendees a chance to reduce a 45-minute LVCC cross-campus walk time down to 2 minutes, not including short waits for Tesla vehicles with drivers. "I call shotgun!" one gleeful CES attendee said while waiting in line. Once inside the white Tesla vehicle, the man used his phone to video the entire trip, marking its sudden acceleration to maximum speed in the single lane white tunnel, an experience the design engineer likened to a slick amusement park ride over a tunnel race track....
Construction is expected to begin in 2023 on the 29-mile Vegas Loop tunnel network approved by the county in 2021 to ultimately connect 51 stations throughout the resort corridor. In 2022, the city of Las Vegas unanimously approved bringing the Vegas Loop to city limits, which increases the system to 34 miles and 55 stations in all.
The dream is for Vegas Loop to eventually connect to Los Angeles, a distance of 270 miles.
Construction is expected to begin in 2023 on the 29-mile Vegas Loop tunnel network approved by the county in 2021 to ultimately connect 51 stations throughout the resort corridor. In 2022, the city of Las Vegas unanimously approved bringing the Vegas Loop to city limits, which increases the system to 34 miles and 55 stations in all.
The dream is for Vegas Loop to eventually connect to Los Angeles, a distance of 270 miles.
I wish (Score:2, Flamebait)
Every dollar spent on high speed rail is a dollar not spent on grade-separating our existing urban railways. There have been some very tragic deaths that were very preventable if Caltrain were grade separated in the Bay Area, and what's awful is that this would be a prerequisite for true HSR here, but they decided to go for the low-hanging fruit of construction in the Central Valley first. I think that's also because they know that if they have something to point to, they can exploit the "sunk cost" menta
Re: (Score:3)
Grade separation on Caltrain is happening:
https://www.caltrain.com/proje... [caltrain.com]
https://www.caltrain.com/proje... [caltrain.com]
https://www.caltrain.com/proje... [caltrain.com]
https://www.sunnyvale.ca.gov/b... [ca.gov]
https://www.greencaltrain.com/... [greencaltrain.com]
Electrification is happening too. In theory, it will be completed in the middle of next year:
https://www.caltrain.com/proje... [caltrain.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Did you check the timetables to complete them? It's almost all in the "design" phase, and those are not even complete. I didn't see any mention of Redwood City either. There are grade crossings at Whipple and Broadway. I know those well because I used to live within walking distance of them, and always marveled that such an anachronism existed in one of the USA's wealthiest areas. I grew up in Northern Virginia, and crossing at-grade was pretty much relegated to the sticks. I never routinely dealt with
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, the easy streets got grade separation already (like Delaware). Redwood city (around Broadway) is probably the most difficult place to do a grade separation, because of the close proximity to buildings and because of the density of road crossings in a narrow area. I assume it will be easiest to raise the track, but that would be ugly.
Yeah, modded Troll or whatever, I stand by my position. It's a boodoggle and we need to cut our losses yesterday.
I used to think so. Then I realized, we're going to spend the money no matter what, we might as well get something real from it.
Re: (Score:2)
There's some nuance here that's left out in my passion against California HSR *as is*. I'm not opposed to HSR in general, I'm opposed to the approach that's been taken. If we had *started* with the difficult and expensive urban grade separation and electrification, and made it a priority to get that done as a prerequisite for other work, we would have gotten an undeniable benefit whether the whole HSR system got built or not.
As it stands, we have a multi $billion monster in the Central Valley that does no
Re: (Score:2)
San Carlos is elevated at the train station, as you can see in this picture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] I'm not sure where it eventually gets elevated. At San Mateo, they recently elevated the track in Hillsdale, but iirc they also lowered the road a bit under the tracks.
A reason for starting in the central valley would be so you could say, "We've already started and look how much we've built, now we need to finish it."
That said, you can see the true priorities because Caltrain electrification starte
Give Musk credit (Score:4, Funny)
He once again was able to get taxpayer money to produce so little [9cache.com].
Re: (Score:2)
Sounds like something Jeremy Clarkson would propose on Top Gear.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
How many companies delivered a better overall proposal?
The notable differences between this and, say, a traditional subway are the size of the cars and the fact that these have zero drivers. That's all. The DC Metro, for example, is made up of rails for single-file traffic of a single car design. (Over the decades, WMATA has bought different models of those cars, but give the Vegas Loop a few more years and they'll presumably have more than one model as well.)
Credit for a wrong solution to a problem? (Score:3)
Re:Credit for a wrong solution to a problem? (Score:4, Interesting)
LA has a bigger problem that traditional mass transit can't solve in any meaningful way from what I can see: The metro area was designed for cars, and it shows. Even now they're about to tear up a portion Culver City that consists of single story buildings and replace it with...more single story buildings, which means that shit still has to be spread out (in addition to the fact that the new buildings are going to be much more expensive than the old ones and carry much higher rent, leasing costs for businesses, etc.)
In a metro area like this, you can have a rail system carry you most of the way from point A to point B, but the problem is if that train is to move with any respectable speed at all, then what counts as "most of the way" is likely still 5-15 miles away from where you intend to go. You still need a car for that.
In Phoenix we actually tried a light rail system. Most people that were sane saw it for what it was going to be: An overpriced piece of crap that doesn't actually solve any problems. But at the time, the state was mostly run by Democrats, so it went ahead anyways. Fast forward to what we have today, which is a train that literally only goes 45mph, which means that most of the time you're likely going to get there by car faster if you take the freeway. Still, the light rail system there costs the county $16 for each ticket sold, and basically the only people that use it are homeless people, who already weren't using the roads anyways. Though fortunately the roadways in Phoenix were designed quite well, so at most times of the day you can cruise at 85mph along the freeways, and it's a hell of a lot easier getting around there than in LA.
If LA builds a similar system, I likewise see it not actually solving any problems in any meaningful way. People who use cars, will probably still use cars. In light of that, I don't see how a tunnel system like this could hurt, but one other problem that needs to be solved badly in this city is parking. That said, this *could* help. Namely, I see tunnels like this being much more usable for self driving taxis. Take the cost of a driver and the cost of gas out of the equation, and you just might have a more affordable transit system. Tough to say for certain though.
The only thing I can say for absolute certain: California's politicians have their heads firmly planted up their own asses.
Re: (Score:2)
This is a car lane in a tunnel ... we've tried extra car lanes it doesn't work, anywhere
Rail for long distance, Metro for shorter, and bus to walking distance is an already proven solution
Re: Credit for a wrong solution to a problem? (Score:2)
You sound convinced that what works in one city surely must work in all cities, even ones like Los Angeles that look like they were designed by a 3 year old playing with Legos.
Re:Give Musk credit (Score:4, Insightful)
Here's a better proposal: a bus.
Re: (Score:2)
"How many companies delivered a better overall proposal?"
Right, because failure to deliver on previous proposals should never be considered when awarding the next one. Con men should aways win the contract.
Re:Give Musk credit (Score:5, Insightful)
The notable differences between this and, say, a traditional subway are the size of the cars and the fact that these have zero drivers.
Last time I heard, the LV tunnel cars do have drivers, they are just taxis on a reserved tunnel road. If Tesla cannot even get self-driving to work here they are incompetent.
Trains can easily be self-driving, most of the wiring is already there, at least on the more up-to-date lines like the main and commuter lines in Western Europe. The reason they are not is : unions. However, where a new line is built they have been driverless from the start, eg the London Docklands Light Railway and the London Underground's Victoria Line (the latter from 1967!). Building a metro in LV could be driverless from the start if anyone knows what they are doing.
No GPS in tunnels (Score:1)
I believe that the Tesla Autopilot is heavily dependent on GPS. Hence drivers in the cars.
Re: (Score:3)
Well he has to win some and lose some. Turns out that tunneling technology isn't advanced all that much by out-side-the-box thinking and advanced application of computer programming. At least not in a way that makes his tunnels anymore affordable (or faster) than anyone else's. I think Elon fancies himself a modern-day Tom Swift Jr, saving the world by solving traditional problems in innovative new ways. But until someone invents an atomic earth blaster (ha), tunnels are never going to be cheap and easy.
Re: (Score:3)
It's not just the failure to make tunnelling any cheaper, it's the fact that his tunnel is so monumentally stupid.
It could have had trains. Trains carry more people, don't get into traffic jams, are accessible for people with disabilities, and have overall less impact on the environment. They can be operated by a handful of people, or even fully automated.
Instead he built a road tunnel that requires a large staff to run, is far less efficient, and which consumed more resources to build. There are zero advan
Re: (Score:2)
I'm intrigued by this developing plasma torch technology for cutting rock, being developed by Petra and Earthgrid. Rather than physically cutting/grinding into the rock, it uses a plasma torch to heat and bust the rock apart, so that it can then be blown away.
Granted, it's no
Re: (Score:2)
Now that's awesome! Definitely Tom Swifty! Might need it's own little nuclear reactor which would be even more Tom Swiftish.
Definitely the kind of thing Elon should have bought or funded.
it's so dumb (Score:1)
that tunnel is basically an amusement ride.
Re: (Score:3)
that tunnel is basically an amusement ride.
And a boring one at that. :-)
Re: (Score:2)
Phrasing (Score:2)
Hopefully everyone was at least of age
This is a publicity stunt. The WSJ, or all rags, has completely lost confidence in the venture, all but calling it a scam. I believe they one machine. And almost no other expertise.
since when is 45kph exciting (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
What is the maximum speed of a Tesla? 70 mph?
I imagine faster in some [cnn.com] cases -- with a gravity assist.
Re:since when is 45kph exciting (Score:4, Funny)
What is the maximum speed of a Tesla?
African or European?
Re: (Score:2)
What is the maximum speed of a Tesla?
African or European?
I don't know thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat!
Re: (Score:2)
subways and other trains can do 55 to 70 so this will need to pick up the speed an bit.
Re:since when is 45kph exciting (Score:5, Interesting)
Some light railways even do 80KM/h without a driver onboard (see the Docklands Light Railway in London, been fully autonomous since 1987).
And that is what amuses me about this venture - they have a tightly controlled, closed system that they can instrument and augment to whatever extent they need, opposing traffic is separated, pedestrians are corralled, and yet the Teslas are still driven by a human being.
This should have been the easiest thing to get automated driving working in, why havent they done it already?
Re: (Score:3)
Tesla is already working on that, so making a version just for the Vegas Loop would be a duplication of effort on what would probably be the most expensive part of the project if they were to do it your way. If Tesla isn't able to make it work, they could do a specific version for Loop, but for now it doesn't make sense. They are spending far less paying the drivers.
Re:since when is 45kph exciting (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah, the thing is, this should be an extremely cheap thing to do - its mainly adding more points of reference on the Loop itself for the FSD to pick up.
Thats the point of calling out that its a closed system - its completely controlled by Tesla, they can do whatever they want in it to help FSD out, its not about developing a full system in itself.
This should have been fully self driving from day one. It isnt. Which is laughable.
Re: (Score:3)
Nothing about autonomous driving is cheap at this point. And they would have to do a lot of testing and regulatory work before it would be allowed, which would cost money and take of time. You wouldn't want to do it from day one, because there might be other issues with their proposed system that wouldn't be self evident, and all that effort may be wasted or need to be redone in the end. This is a small scale system and paying drivers isn't a huge expense today. And keep in mind that the system Tesla is wor
Will it go to the airport? (Score:3)
The Casino Skyrail train line stops at the back fence of the Las Vegas Airport (seems they could not get it allowed to go the few hundred feet to the terminals for 'reasons'). You need to take a taxi (or these days an Uber/Lyft) to get to the hotel area which is adjacent right nearby.
Hopefully the Boring Company's tunnels will reach the airport this time?
Worse than that though (Score:1)
The Casino Skyrail train line stops at the back fence of the Las Vegas Airport
As dumb as that is, almost even worse is that just about every stop (except for the convention center) has you have to take a ten minute hike through a casino when you get off the train, making the train almost worse than simple walking anywhere in the strip.
Re: (Score:2)
the taxi groups put an stop to that going to the airport years ago
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The Casino Skyrail train line stops at the back fence of the Las Vegas Airport (seems they could not get it allowed to go the few hundred feet to the terminals for 'reasons'). You need to take a taxi (or these days an Uber/Lyft) to get to the hotel area which is adjacent right nearby.
Hopefully the Boring Company's tunnels will reach the airport this time?
At least Uber / Lyft lets you know pricing unlike cabs which like to take the long way to the airport to pad the fare. If your cab goes through the tunnel ask teh driver why they didn't take the direct short route instead? Las time I did that he cut the fare to the short route rate rather than argue.
Re: (Score:2)
Unfortunately, that is more of a political issue. In theory, if Tesla can get FSD working, there's nothing the taxi drivers could really do to stop them from just driving to the airport. But that is a long ways off. For now, the answer is "no".
Re: (Score:2)
there's nothing the taxi drivers could really do to stop them [FSD Teslas] from just driving to the airport.
But they stopped the monorail.
Re: (Score:2)
The monorail can't run on a normal road, so all they had to do was block the rail expansion. Teslas can, so you'd need some kind of new law prohibiting robotaxis at the airport.
can't change more then the monorail for that small (Score:2)
can't change more then the monorail for that small trip.
And down the road it needs to be cheap to keep up with the free trams and under the taxi price.
The videos (Score:5, Insightful)
I have seen so far were plain tunnels, in an event of a fire this is disastrous... We have learned that the hard way in the alps. If there is no ventilation no periodic escape routes a tunnel becomes a trap in case of a fire!
Re: (Score:2)
These tunnels are not very long, so additional escape and ventilation tunnels are not necessary. But for longer tunnels those would be present.
Wow, car drives through tunnel! (Score:2)
In tommorows Cutting Edge News we bring you crazy stories about trains running underground! With passengers!
Solutions for problems that don't exist (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Then why did this system cost so much less than those "cheaper" systems?
Re: (Score:2)
Ever heard of underbidding?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
A bus stop takes like 30 seconds dude. https://localtoday.news/ny/met... [localtoday.news]
You aren't getting a bunch of people out and into a sedan much faster than that.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
So many individual cars is much faster to load and go than a bus.
At the expense of inefficient use of road space. The LV Tesla tunnel has a fraction of the passengers-per-hour capacity of a metro or even buses.
Re: (Score:1)
Although when you get to that, you might as well run on metal rails to reduce friction and basically build a light rail system.
Economics of tunnels (Score:3)
The fundamental economics of tunnels were pretty well formalized by 1825, just needing a few updates to coefficients when Tunnel Boring Machines (TBM) were developed in the mid 1960s. Evacuated tunnels, pneumatics, maglev, exotic technologies: they had all been analyzed by 1940 and many tried. When exactly is the latest Melon Husk scam, I mean company going to openly publish the revolution in tunnel economics that will make their fantasies, I mean business plan, feasible?
Re: (Score:3)
He's made quite a lot of money like that so far and he might need some more if the Tesla shareholders who are suing him win. And they're going to win too.
Re: (Score:2)
His plan is to make digging cheaper.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't know if you are serious or not, but the obvious benefit of tunnels in the urban environment is that they don't have to be built above ground, which can get very pricey and be very inconvenient for everyone.
Re: (Score:3)
Yes, as I noted that was pretty well understood by the early 1800s. As were the costs associated with building, operating, and maintaining tunnels. And in the 2020s the costs of building tunnels include the expense of surveying the underground environment and avoiding all the sewers, gas pipelines, building foundations, and yes tunnels that are already down there. It is a pretty well understood political, engineering, and economic process.
So again, what secret sauce does Husk's latest blast of bafflegab h
Re: (Score:2)
In the 1800s, you could use eminent domain to buy and demolish buildings that were in your way. In the 1800s, homeowners couldn't sue to block a project because it will harm their home value, or destroy their view. A lot has changed since then to make new infrastructure development much more expensive or impossible in many cases.
Re: (Score:3)
He did an interview with the TED talk owner some years ago where they discussed the plans.
Basically dig small simple tunnels, use off-the-shelf commodities (Teslas on pavement) instead of expensive infrastructure, and hire a bunch of engineers to work on the tunnel boring machine tech to get the tunnels done much faster. Oh, and work out a bootstrap strategy by finding good places to earn some income while working out everything. For instance, they still aren't driving the cars autonomously.
It sounds like y
If you work for Tesla (Score:2)
If you work for Tesla you have to drive the car, if you buy one you get conned into thinking it can drive itself.
There's a catch there... (Score:2)
Tunnels in LA ... (Score:2)
... A place notorious for Earthquakes ... ..it's almost as sensible as tunnels in New Orleans ...
Re: (Score:2)
Tunnels are much more resistant to earthquakes than above ground infrastructure.
270 miles of a single lane tunnel? (Score:2)
Aren't there several fault lines between Los Angeles and Las Vegas? Or at least one big one?
Is this another enormous lie, designed to take up all the oxygen and suffocate better proposals?
Re: (Score:2)
Fault lines won't be an issue for a tunnel any more than they are a problem for a surface road.