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Mozilla

Mozilla Plans Ground-Up UI Redesign For Thunderbird Email Client (arstechnica.com) 52

Posted by BeauHD from the what-to-expect dept.
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: Why does Thunderbird look so old?" That's one of the most frequently asked questions about Thunderbird, according to Thunderbird Project Design Manager Alessandro Castellani (along with "Is Thunderbird dead?"). And it's one he seeks to answer definitively in a new blog post about Thunderbird's planned 2023 release, codenamed Supernova.

The Supernova release will include an overhaul of Thunderbird's user interface. Castellani didn't share screenshots, but he indicated that the new UI would be "simple and clean" and targeted mostly at new users. For "veteran users," the interface will also be "flexible and adaptable" so that people who prefer the way Thunderbird looks now can "maintain that familiarity they love." Supernova will also include several other big changes, including a redesigned calendar and support for Firefox Sync.
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Mozilla Plans Ground-Up UI Redesign For Thunderbird Email Client More

Mozilla Plans Ground-Up UI Redesign For Thunderbird Email Client

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  • It ain't broke (Score:5, Insightful)

    by evil_aaronm ( 671521 ) on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:00PM (#63283175)
    It works. I like it as-is. I don't need "new and shiny." Don't fuck with it.

    • Re:It ain't broke (Score:4, Interesting)

      by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ) on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:15PM (#63283221)

      It works. I like it as-is. I don't need "new and shiny." Don't fuck with it.

      While I agree, I thought this in TFBP (blog post) was interesting:

      How Is Thunderbird Made?

      Thunderbird is literally a bunch of code running on top of Firefox. All the tabs and sections you see in our applications are just browser tabs with a custom user interface.

      We love using Firefox as our base architecture, because it leverages all the very good stuff within. Things like cross-platform support, the Gecko web renderer, the Spidermonkey JavaScript compiler, and so on.

      In doing so, Thunderbird can tag along Firefox for their release cycle, inherit security patches, benefit from extensions support, and much more.

      Obviously there’s more complexity to it, including a lot of C++, JS, CSS, and XHTML to ensure everything works properly. Using a solid base architecture like Firefox is the perfect starting point.

      Unfortunately, this approach comes with a hefty cost.

      Meaning, while sharing reduces redundant coding, Thunderbird probably contains a bunch of stuff it doesn't need ...

      • True but they could fix that by making the Firefox codebase more modular so they can exclude the bloat. Having firefox for your codebase sounds ideal for Thunderbird due to the lack of investment in maintenance of the project. And the thing is, even if it makes the software bulkier, whats the damage? In todays desktop compute environments of multi ghz, multi gb memory and disk space. Perhaps not ideal but not particularly a problem.

        • what's the damage

          This thinking is precisely why computers still drag today. While I do realize the advancements in hardware technologies made possible more sophistication in software, the world was getting stuff done back in the day with 8-bit processors and 64K RAM. It has seemed for a long time that no one bothers to design with limiting resource usage in mind.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Merk42 ( 1906718 )
      Version 1.0.0.0 of any software is the best, nothing else should ever be released after it. In fact, no other software doing the same task should ever be released either, as they obviously would not be as good.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by marcle ( 1575627 )

      He's saying it will be configurable, and that if you like the way it looks now, you can set it up that way. Of course we'll have to wait and see. Personally, I don't give a damn how "old" it looks, and I think that a lot of "modern" UI design is crap, difficult to read, difficult to discover. But he's saying all the right words, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

      • >"He's saying it will be configurable, and that if you like the way it looks now, you can set it up that way. Of course we'll have to wait and see"

        Indeed we shall see. A lot like having the option to put tabs on top. Which was a choice when added. Then changed to be the default. Then removed the easy option on the bar and moved it to a preferences entry. Then moved out of preferences into a hard-to-find about:config entry. Then REMOVED ALL TOGETHER. Not that I am bitter about that or anything.

        And

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        ... and I think that a lot of "modern" UI design is crap, difficult to read, difficult to discover.

        Indeed. As an example everything being flat makes it difficult to find title bars so that you can drag windows around, especially when Microsoft 365 and their ilk start stuffing buttons and junk into the title bar itself.

        Ribbons are the worst, making regularly used features completely undiscoverable unless you're prepared to click on every single combo button on every single tab for each type of window that your program presents. I think they could be a lot more useful if they stole the Help > Search con

      • So they're planning to fuck things up and make me do more work simply to maintain consistency? Great.

    • > I like it as-is. I don't need "new and shiny." Don't [bleep] with it.

      Hopefully somebody creates a nice fork into a "legacy" branch.

      Candidate names: StableBird, LegacyBird, VintageBird, DFWIbird (Don't F With It Bird), OINBird (Old Is Not [same as] Bad...).

    • The only thing that irks me is the email search facility which is slow and not particularly accurate. I tend to get better results filtering rather than searching so I usually avoid using it.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by unimind ( 743130 )
      I mostly agree. They can do whatever they want with the interface, as long as it's just as easy to use, runs as well as or better than it already does, doesn't require anyone to relearn anything, and for gods sakes doesn't take any inspiration whatsoever from the latest Micros**t Outlook interface!

      Also, sure would be cool if they could finish up that Maildir support.

    • It works. I like it as-is. I don't need "new and shiny." Don't fuck with it.

      How about working on search functionality instead of worrying about users wanting a shiny new interface. Change for the sake of "new" usually is NOT progress.

  • Okay ... just please don't "Outlook" it (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Murdoch5 ( 1563847 ) on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:02PM (#63283183) Homepage
    I think the Thunderbird interface is rather clean, simple and attractive now. It's an email client, and that's what I want, without the extra uselessness that you see in toys like "Outlook", both the web interface and desktop versions, and GMail. Providing they don't flash it up, and don't add more bells and whistles then required, or needed, we should be okay, because that last thing any Thunderbird user wants, is to open up an Outlook clone.

    • The real question is why there isn't an actual pool to let users decide if that what they want... instead of focusing on writing rfc standard and collaborating with popular MTA such as exim to make 2FA a thing, so that we can continue to use thunderbird in business environment, because soon every single business will have their cyber insurance require 2FA for everything..... what about NATIVE shared calendar support, attendence viewing, meeting invitation to major service ?

      Of course, it not their problem, i

      • To be fair, I think 2FA or MFA should be mandatory where it's available, because far too many people won't enable it otherwise. As for calendar support, I don't want calendars in my email, that's what my calendar is for. However, in order to get people over to Thunderbird it will have to be available, because people are stupid, lazy, and want one application that can do everything, even if more functionality = less usability.

        There are a lot of great alternatives for email clients, I just think Thunderbi
    • I believe the truism you are looking for is Zawinski's Law.
      I paraphrase here:
      All programs expand in functionality until they eventually include email.

      But I can see a problem now. If you start with an email program, where do you end up, Jamie?

      Perhaps you have coined your own corollary! Murdoch5's first corollary to Zawinski's Law.
      "All email programs expand in functionality until they eventually include Microsoft Office"

      Congrats on the new corollary.

  • FAQ? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Joce640k ( 829181 ) on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:09PM (#63283195) Homepage

    Why does Thunderbird look so old? That's one of the most frequently asked questions about Thunderbird,

    I don't know a single person who ever asked that question but I'm guessing he's a Mac user who thinks there's too much contrast in the text, that it should be grey on grey.

    Right now it's a pretty good program. I have a feeling it's going to downhill from here.

    • Either that of he's a PC user who thinks it needs a 'dark' theme by default...

      • Or an ADHD user who simply can't stand having useful controls visible on the screen all the time. You know, the type of traditional interface where you know where the F things are instead of having to click all over the place and having stuff popping up and away "in context" but you had no idea what the context was. Like having several menus for fast access instead of a single "hamburger" menu with a zillion more layers of menus that you have to wait to "roll in and out" with each sub-menu and replace wha

        • Yep. Amy UI designer who uses the word "clean" should be taken out back and shot through the spleen.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by kmoser ( 1469707 )
      My #1 (and #2 and #3) criteria for any software are: is it stable, reliable, and fast? If the answer to either of those is "no", then that's where development time should be spent. Next on the list would be "does it contain the obvious features many people would use on a regular basis?" (In the case of Thunderbird, I'm thinking of the ability to search/sort/filter. Those features are reasonably robust.)

      Next on my list is "how does the UI work? Is it reasonably intuitive?"

      And, pretty much dead last, is "

  • Dup (Score:4, Informative)

    by q4Fry ( 1322209 ) on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:09PM (#63283197)

    Duplicate from yesterday [slashdot.org] unless it's news that Ars Technica noticed the TBird blog post.

  • Mozilla surveys idiots, plans to send Thunderbird's market share the same direction as Firefox's.

  • Maybe fix its problems first? (Score:3)

    by gweihir ( 88907 ) on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:16PM (#63283223)

    Going for a Second System Effect before you got the first one working well is pretty stupid. Still pretty much in line with the crap Mozilla has been doping the last few years. Stinks of incompetent "leadership".

    • off topic: does slashdot still even have a single one editor? it would take me like 10 minutes a day to check /. for dupes. Yet nobody does it, nobody seems to care. /. should be dead, more than dead. I am wondering myself why I am visiting /. daily. Bad habit from the good old days I guess.

  • Gall's Law states that every complex system that works began as a simple system that worked. A "rewrite from scratch" attempts to create a complex system that works in one go, with entirely predictable results.

    The way out of technical debt is through saving and wise investment not from buying a RFS lottery ticket.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

  • Ratio of users who asked for this: 0.001% (Score:3)

    by ffkom ( 3519199 ) on Friday February 10, 2023 @06:03PM (#63283329)
    ... and that is probably an over-estimate.

    • seems there is this juvenile fascination among far to many developers with eye candy and to leave ones mark on the world, much like a dog hiking its leg.

      Sounds like the Firefox constant menu churning madness

  • absolutely terrible on my large monitor.

    I just love hamburger menus, low information density and huge swaths of useless whitespace.

  • Please don't do it (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    The thing software companies seem to often get wrong is failing to mature with their products.

    Nobody wants you to move fast and break things, they don't want change for changes sake. They want a stable reliable tool that gets the job done. A lot of old people use this software. Changing the UI for shits and grins is not going to serve anyone's interests.

    If you want to create a theming abstraction and allow people to pick whatever UI they like the most knock yourself out so long as you don't interfere wit

  • "Ground up" ...said every "designer" everywhere...

  • It's been nearly 20 years since the rise of email authentication standards like DKIM and SPF to combat spam and phishing. Thunderbird does exactly nothing on the UI front which is pretty shameful. Research shows that alerting users has a positive effect but the patchy support in UI's is hindering any positive feedback loop that could help users identify phishing attempts. It's a complete mystery why Mozilla has been so indifferent to one of the most serious security threats that email users face.

  • According to the video, the developer (an UI/UX enthusiast) states that the Thunderbird UI is outdated and old. But two questions arise: is he aware that Thunderbird exists exactly for the users that want that old interface? and is he saying that potential users that might want a newer interface can't just use another email client? So, who's need will be addressed here? The old users that like the interface as it is, or the potential new users that can already use a more modern client?

  • Typical marketing objectives (Score:3)

    by Glasswire ( 302197 ) on Saturday February 11, 2023 @04:55AM (#63284197) Homepage

    Nobody gets a bonus for existing userbase so pissing off the people who like the current mature, useful UI by switching to some low density UI, which is hard to do real things with is the personally smarter choice for product marketing people.
    Please, please Mozilla, allow a classic mode that let's us use menus and fast hotkey combinations and doesn't require 4 clicks to do anything important.

    • The ONLY hope is that "UI" was used instead of "UX" so maybe somebody isn't a complete nimrod. Not that marketing better experiences would harm existing users; but they have a history of upsetting the existing users.

      Still, they are focusing almost entirely on the wrong things like mozilla has been doing in recent years. The plug-ins and configuration keeps getting messed up when that was the main benefit for both firefox and thunderbird. Also, they are trying too hard for "new users" by copying google whil

  • Fix the rules processing (we need a LOT of rules to deal with today's spam) and how it handles servers - in particular, better transparency into what it is doing to help debug those connections. My 12-core CPU shouldn't be brought to its knees every time it announces a new message coming in.

  • Flat design is a horror. Modern UI's are souless, and less-intuitive at the same time. I really miss the days when software had personality. Thunderbird will no doubt try to ape the ugly Outlook UI horror.
  • I am still on the last version that supported movemail because I am too lazy to switch from fetchmail for mail retrieval. If they are going to update the UI do it ONLY ONCE and don't go hiding everything under some stupid burger menu, and don't just start ripping out features because some new developer can't be bothered to imagine themselves using such a feature.
  • When the Simple, useful, intuitive Firefox interface got redone last year or so I moved to Brave and or Chrome, Opera, Vivaldi and whatever I could find to get away from the disaster that Firefox had become. I don't think I was alone. The same fate now seems to be on the horizon for Thunderbird. Change for changes sake or to just follow the trend is the path to oblivion for software that people actually use.

  • A few days ago I left a comment on the blog post. At that point no comments were shown.
    Now there are 59 comments, but mine isn't there. None of the comments say that a redesing is a bad idea.
    Something is fishy...

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