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'Click-to-Cancel' Rule Would Penalize Companies That Make You Cancel By Phone (arstechnica.com) 101

Posted by msmash from the moving-forward dept.
Canceling a subscription should be just as easy as signing up for the service, the Federal Trade Commission said in a proposed "click-to-cancel" rule announced today. If approved, the plan "would put an end to companies requiring you to call customer service to cancel an account that you opened on their website," FTC commissioners said. From a report: The FTC said the click-to-cancel rule would require sellers "to make it as easy for consumers to cancel their enrollment as it was to sign up," and "go a long way to rescuing consumers from seemingly never-ending struggles to cancel unwanted subscription payment plans for everything from cosmetics to newspapers to gym memberships."

The FTC said the proposed rule would be enforced with civil penalties and let the commission return money to harmed consumers. "The proposal states that if consumers can sign up for subscriptions online, they should be able to cancel online, with the same number of steps. If consumers can open an account over the phone, they should be able to cancel it over the phone, without endless delays," FTC Chair Lina Khan wrote. The FTC is seeking public comment on the proposal, which also includes other changes to the commission's 1973 Negative Option Rule. "Some businesses too often trick consumers into paying for subscriptions they no longer want or didn't sign up for in the first place," Khan said.
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'Click-to-Cancel' Rule Would Penalize Companies That Make You Cancel By Phone More

'Click-to-Cancel' Rule Would Penalize Companies That Make You Cancel By Phone

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  • Looking at you LA Times.

    • ...and NY Times.

    • Re:LA Times (Score:5, Informative)

      by Petersko ( 564140 ) on Thursday March 23, 2023 @04:09PM (#63394065)

      ...and Sirius XM satellite radio. Not only can't you do it online, the first line of people who answer the phone can't do it either. It needs to go a team that specializes in trying to stop you.

      • ...and Sirius XM satellite radio. Not only can't you do it online, the first line of people who answer the phone can't do it either. It needs to go a team that specializes in trying to stop you.

        I still remember having to cancel that back in the day. They kept offering me free months of service even after I told them I was cancelling because the overcompressed audio quality was absolutely intolerable. I ended up telling the representative I wouldn't even want to use the service even if you gave it to me for free for the rest of my life, there's just too many compression artifacts in the music.

        • Re:LA Times (Score:4, Funny)

          by narcc ( 412956 ) on Thursday March 23, 2023 @09:20PM (#63394863) Journal

          You should try using Monster antennas. They're made of stretched oxygen-free copper. (The stretching helps counteract compression artifacts.) They're a little pricey, but totally worth it if you want to actually hear music through the distortions. I can get you a discount, but you gotta be cool.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by fermion ( 181285 )
      Also the NYT and any legacy paper. I did not even want to cancel. Just end paper delivery and go digital. My credit card even expired and they kept billing. Filed with a collection agency. Absolute fraud.

      But not as bad as Bit.ly. Once you pay, the money is theirs. No matter if they lied about services. As part of this law any service must have at least some grace period, like 14-45 days.

    • And XM Radio

  • Don't forget gym memberships (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Lije Baley ( 88936 ) on Thursday March 23, 2023 @04:14PM (#63394081)

    I hear you need a good lawyer to get out of those.

    • Obligatory Friends reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Tyr07 ( 8900565 )

      Yeah but if you want to be vengeful you could disrupt their business model and actually use the gym, get ripped and ruin their party at the same time.

      • I think you meant I should go there, pretend to work out, remain repulsive, and scare off all of their younger users.

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by Tyr07 ( 8900565 )

          Also avoid anyone recording themselves at the gym. Bring a tuke and pull it over your eyes to make sure you don't end up a tik tok creep, and always work out with your face at the wall.

    • The FTC said the click-to-cancel rule would require sellers "to make it as easy for consumers to cancel their enrollment as it was to sign up," and "go a long way to rescuing consumers from seemingly never-ending struggles to cancel unwanted subscription payment plans for everything from cosmetics to newspapers to gym memberships."

      RTFS

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

      I hear you need a good lawyer to get out of those.

      You're probably being sarcastic, but it's actually real.

      Often for these you have to send a letter saying you intend to cancel your subscription and it will take place 30 days from the date of receipt of the letter. A real letter with a stamp, sent via the mail system.

      Though, it wouldn't surprise me if the address was somewhere in Timbuktu and it requires hand delivery to someone who is only there for 5 minutes on a blue moon at some random conjunction of the

    • The trouble with online is you forget passwords often after signup, and the company also stops you ticking auto renew until a week or so has passed. They never remind you before a deduction is due, and often only text after the money has been removed. As a tourist, I was unable to do banking, because the phone company sent my new burner number to the credit bureau's as 'new', so double factor sms confirmation was impossible. Perhaps we add $1 per minute to cancel a policy if more than three minutes. You ti

    • Failing that, people could just start actually reading their membership agreements and follow the listed cancellation steps. They all have them.

      Oh, and be sure to create a paper trail. Send the cancellation notice by certified mail, so they can't deny having received it. The membership will get cancelled.

  • Basically any company where people sign up and do not actually use it. They claim you are paying for the right to use it, not actual use.

    But no one ever uses them, like gym memberships.

    Or credit monitoring

    or Disney +

    • Disney+ is a critical tool for babysitters of the 5-years-and-under type. It's a business expense.

      • Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)

        by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
        Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • Comment removed based on user account deletion

          • I'm sure your children are perfect angels at all times, but most occasionally have meltdowns, and watching a familiar story is very calming to them. Has nothing to do with not liking kids and everything to do with understanding that sometimes interacting with a stranger [even a regular babysitter] is just an added stressor.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by MBC1977 ( 978793 )

      "Basically any company where people sign up and do not actually use it. They claim you are paying for the right to use it, not actual use.

      How is this the company's fault? You could access your paid for service at anytime (within the guidelines provided), but if you have chosen not to do so, that is equally not the company's problem either. Or look at it from the reverse angle, you would expect to be able to use the service you paid for when you want (except for Timeshares, and there is a special place in

      • I don't know if this is what they meant, but one of my bugbears is rolling contracts. You are automatically entered into another 30 day contract at the end of the previous one and so you have to pay for the month that you didn't use and give them 30 days cancellation notice so really you are 2x30days payments for a service you aren't using. And don't be surprised if an administrative "error" means they didn't actually cancel it. Twice I've had the "oh, you actually can only cancel a maximum of 7 days before

    • And this is why I will not sign up to any online video subscription services, such as Netflix or Crave. It would only create a bottomless pit in my wallet that I would not be able to fill in or plug.

    • Disney Plus was easy to cancel. All I had to do was go online and it took all of a minute to accomplish.

      This is the way.

  • It's a pain, sure, but cancelling my credit cards last year when my wallet was stolen finally ended several subscriptions. Can't get out of your gym membership? Contact your local mugger! (He probably works out at the gym.)

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by HiThere ( 15173 )

      Why do you need to do that to cancel your credit card? I've cancelled more than one without any major problems.

      • I've had trouble canceling credit cards for the same reasons as cancelling anything else, and only reporting it stolen has gotten to at least change numbers. They stll send me a new one.

        • I just tell the bank I want a new card and they send me one. If I give them a reason (someone charging me for stuff i don't want to pay for) they waive the expedited shipping fee. Don't even need to get the numbers changed, which they usually do automatically for unauthorized purchases, since the new card's expiration date won't match the old one, which kills the subscriptions.

          • Re: (Score:3)

            by taustin ( 171655 )

            Don't even need to get the numbers changed, which they usually do automatically for unauthorized purchases, since the new card's expiration date won't match the old one, which kills the subscriptions.

            You'd think that, but you'd be wrong, at least for American Express. Processing a transaction with an expired card with a still value number, they will approve it. And refuse to reverse it.

            I use to live on that card, but I haven't used it in years.

  • Virtual credit card? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by SirSpanksALot ( 7630868 ) on Thursday March 23, 2023 @04:27PM (#63394149)
    I can cancel shit whenever I want... I have a credit card that can generate new numbers specifically to use with subscriptions - and when I don't want the sub anymore, I can just switch it off on my side. 1 click cancelation for me (switch off the virtual number) - I don't even have to talk to or do anything with the company I'm deciding not to pay anymore.

    • I can cancel shit whenever I want... I have a credit card that can generate new numbers specifically to use with subscriptions - and when I don't want the sub anymore, I can just switch it off on my side.

      That only works for subscriptions which operate on a prepaid basis. If you're being billed for any sort of postpaid services, they'll continue to bill you, then tack on late fees, then finally send you to collections when you've run up a sizable enough debt. Not fun.

      • outside of your electric or gas bill, wtf do you "subscribe" to that is post-paid?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by bn-7bc ( 909819 )
          Well your cekphone contract for one at least here they are billed the month after the usage happens, well duh hard to bill usage based thing beforehand

        • outside of your electric or gas bill, wtf do you "subscribe" to that is post-paid?

          Cable TV / internet service and postpaid cellular services are both billed in a way that cancelling the credit card will just leave you with unpaid bills rather than immediately cancelled service.

          • and water bill. In some (many? all? few? I'm too lazy to figure out) municipalities unpaid water bills transfer with the property.

      • Send them a letter (on paper) to their head office. Send it registered post. Tell them that you are cancelling the subscription from now - today, that you will not change your mind and that they no longer have any authority to take any payment from your bank-account/credit-card/... Then tell your bank. If they then try to take something report them to the police for fraud.

        • Not registered, certified. A registered letter has to be kept in a special locked drawer, every time it's moved that has to be logged and, it has to be signed for. It's much slower than regular mail and intended for mailing things with intrinsic value, such as jewelry, gemstones or autographed books. Certified mail is treated the same as regular mail except that you have to sign for it when it's delivered, rather like Special Delivery was.

          • I am a Brit - a registered letter is what we call a letter that has proof of delivery for a small cost by the sender. Cheaper is "proof of postage", it does not cost and under law is deemed delivered 2 working days later; this is usually good enough.

            • Thank you; I'd forgotten that the terminology might be different in the UK. And, of course, delivery time might be longer in the USofA because we're considerably more spread out than you are.
    • depending on the company they can and will let you run a balance and eventually send it to collections. Changes in laws make it much easier/cheaper to collect on smaller "debts", which has created an "industry" around aggregating them and using the courts to collect.

      • Re:Careful (Score:4, Informative)

        by taustin ( 171655 ) on Thursday March 23, 2023 @06:24PM (#63394501) Homepage Journal

        Very few collection agencies will buy debt in the same state as themselves. This is because very few are mentally capable of a single interaction with a debtor that does not violation the Fair Debt Collections Act, often in multiple ways, and you can sue them for $1,500 per violation. Doesn't take much before they owe you more than you owe them.

        One of the side effects of this is that they can't use small claims court to sue you, so they have to hire a real lawyer and use a real court. If you show up for every court appearance, and admit to the debt, it will cost them five figures in legal fees (that they have zero chance of collecting). If the total amount is less than tens of thousands of dollars, they won't bother. They'll just try to bully you out of a few hundred bucks, then sell it off to another collection agency.

        You can also, at that point, ask the court to supervise collection - on a payment schedule, not all at once - (or even act as an intermediary), so that the collection agency can't a) harass you to try to bully you into paying faster, or b) lie about the debt having been paid off in full after the fact, while they sell it off to another bunch of crooks.

        The only collection agencies to take seriously are the ones in your state, and relatively local to you.

  • Because it could just send you to a waiting queue for a single chatbot instance.

    • Re:"Online" is not a cure-all (Score:4, Insightful)

      by dskoll ( 99328 ) on Thursday March 23, 2023 @04:41PM (#63394205) Homepage

      If the rule is: It must be as easy to cancel as it was to sign up, then that would close that particular loophole.

      • And it's a lovely, easy-to-understand, simple-to-measure rule. If lawyers can agree that it will be similarly easy to compare in court should there be a dispute, it's pretty near perfect.

        It should not take longer, it should not require greater effort, and it should not require you to give up anything you hadn't already - no additional contact information or anything. And no contract clauses where you sign away that right, because they'll try that, too.

      • If the rule is: It must be as easy to cancel as it was to sign up, then that would close that particular loophole.

        From https://www.ftc.gov/system/fil... [ftc.gov]
        "To construct these guardrails, the proposed Rule requires the mechanism to be at least as simple as the one used to initiate
        the charge or series of charges."

        This entire thread is full of people who don't know what the proposal is but are absolutely sure it is wrong.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by taustin ( 171655 )

      As described by the head of the FCC on NPR this morning, they could do that - but only if they do the same thing when you sign up.

      Same number of steps.

  • This will never pass. This is too sensible coming from the Gov.
    • Instead of passing endless new laws, all of them with loopholes for the privileged, it is far better to enforce the common law rights of the citizens, which includes the right to just compensation. Tacitus wrote that the more laws a country has, the more corrupt it becomes. Common law does not even need to be written down because it is common sense.

      • Common law does not even need to be written down because it is common sense.

        If it isn't written down, then it is some bullshit "unwritten" rule. Those always turn out for the best.

      • "Common sense" is how we get redlining, racial profiling, wage discrimination, and a host of other problems that come from those in power saying things like, "Well, it's just common sense that women should get paid less since they ___>____."

      • Common Law is absolutely written down, and has been since the late 1760's. It is a collection of precedential decisions made by judges. So, it really wouldn't work if it wasn't written down.

  • I'm pretty sure I called Comcast to cancel after moving out of their service area, and they kept billing me. Fortunately I was a short drive from the area where there's Comcast service. This was pre-Covid, so they had walk in service and when I showed up in person they finally got the message. I think I still lost a month or two though, because they know you're not going to go through the trouble of suing them.

    Has Comcast gotten any better in the past 10 years?

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Da_Big_G ( 3880 )

      No they have gotten worse.

      My office had a Comcast Business plan and needed faster upload (it was capped at 25 Mbps) but they wouldn't sell us anything faster, so we had to get a different service and cancel Comcast. Tried to cancel online, but you have to call.

      Main call center wanted us to deal with a business sales rep, but he wouldn't help cancel, so I called the number on the bill and said cancel, that rep claimed the retention dept was closed for the day and call back tomorrow... called back the next d

    • Comcast is the worst. It took a lot of effort and money to get out from under their contract service. I have been happily Comcast-free for 4 years now and hardly a week goes by where I don't take a deep breath and thank my lucky stars that I don't have to deal with Comcast anymore.

  • Starting with AOL free trail back in the 90's, I called them weekly to cancel my Sub. They kept charging my checking account every month. Bank told me they could not stop an auto-pay charge. Finally had to close the checking account to stop the auto-pay charges. Then they kept sending me bills for the service, I wrote Canceled and returned the bill. Finally I moved, no more bills.
    Had a wireline phone service for two years, decided to cancel. Did everything they wanted to cancel without getting charged for m

  • Notoriously problematic to cancel. Always has to be in person and they really try hard to make that not easy either. I'd love to see them suffer for this since 90% of their business model is hoping people just let the auto-debit go through each month and never use the service.

  • Go after banks instead (Score:3)

    by CubicleZombie ( 2590497 ) on Thursday March 23, 2023 @05:10PM (#63394317)

    You should be able to deny future subscription charges through your bank. As it is, you have to cancel your account and get a new number. Which was the only way I could get rid of a gym membership I tried to cancel.

  • Apple provides a single place to manage subscriptions, including cancellations, for items bought/subscribed to on their app store. That's A Good Thing.

    As a side note, mebbe there's a place for an automated "we'll work through the phone tree to handle your cancellation" service. Sounds like a good job for ChatGPT and its ilk.

  • Something mentioned this morning in NPR's interview with the head of the FCC was that the intent is for it to have some teeth:

    $50,000 fine per violation, per day. For a big company like Comcast, that could easily add up to enough millions to show up on a shareholder's report.

    Of course, the odds of that surviving all the legal challenges intact are minimal.

  • I recently tried equafax, they had a free trial but you have to phone in to quit.

    • I recently tried equafax, they had a free trial but you have to phone in to quit.

      And they leak your data for free!

  • Next, do marriage!

    Get two wittnesses, an official, sign something. Going in or going out.

    Oh, right, our government never interferes with religion (except when they overtly endorse Christian 'values')

  • They should include time shares in this! (Score:3)

    by n2hightech ( 1170183 ) on Thursday March 23, 2023 @08:45PM (#63394781)
    The real killer is the time share companies. It is almost impossible to cancel one of these. If you are fool enough to sign up you are stuck forever paying service fees and never finding a time when you can actually use your weeks. I dodged a bullet a few years back and came to my senses in time to cancel during the waiting period. Feel sorry for all those people stuck paying and paying and paying.

    • Who the hell buys time share? It's shown to be be fraud, run by money launderers and other crims looking to shift cash. If you see "time share" automatically add "scam" and you'd be correct.

  • They have many, *many* orders of magnitude more money and power then us working class folk, and will not tolerate *any* external attempts to reduce their profits.

  • What? (Score:2)

    by Ormy ( 1430821 )
    Not sure how things work in the US, but here in the UK I can go just onto my online banking app and cancel any payments I wish, it literally takes seconds. When I was not using a gym anymore, I just stopped paying them. No need to cancel the bank account, or change card numbers or anything like that. Yes I get this only works for prepaid services, but almost everything is prepaid here.
  • This is the wrong way to do it. The Executive branch does not have legislative authority. This should be coming from Congress, because they make the rules, not the FTC. The FTC enforces rules, it doesn't have the legitimate authority to make them.

    Just because it's hard to get the outcome you want by following the rules does not mean you can ignore them.

    • The FTC does in fact have the authority to make rules. Because Congress passed legislation specifically stating that they have rulemaking authority to handle matters that the FTC act, and some later legislation, put within their scope.

      Section 6(g) of the FTC Act, 15 U.S.C. Sec. 46, authorizes them "to make rules and regulations for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of this subchapter."

      As a matter of authority; Congress could have given the FTC no rulemaking power and decided to either just is
  • Now if only we could do something about the "Please allow 7-14 days for us to process your request" nonsense when trying to unsubscribe from mailing lists. If you can sign me up (without my consent) the instant my address appears on some database somewhere, you can remove it just as quickly.
  • The irony here is that there is no single direct link from the FTC post to the place to make comments. Searching doesn't return expected results and it's frustrating. I gave up on commenting because the FTC doesn't follow their own policy of it being "easy".

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