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'Valve Restricts Accounts of 2500 Users Who Marked a Negative Game Review Useful' 129
New submitter jth1234567 reports: In late January, a Steam user posted a negative review for the game Warlander, warning potential buyers about the shady anti-cheat system the game was using, the apparent problems being intrusive data collection and difficult removal after the game itself had been uninstalled (the review text is no longer available). This review stayed on top as the most helpful review for nearly three months, which must have been a big thorn in the side for the developer and the publisher.
Until yesterday, when they managed to get a Steam moderator to remove the negative review. In a perfect, consumer-friendly world it should have been another way around, and the game's sales page removed until the claims were investigated by Valve, but this is not a perfect world. However, things didn't end there.
Apparently the Steam moderator categorized the negative review as "attempting to scam users or other violations of Steam's Rules & Guidelines", which meant that all those 2439 people (plus people who have it 437 awards) got their accounts restricted for 30 days, during this time none of them can up- or downvote any Steam reviews at all.
Support tickets from affected users to Steam Support have received a default response saying Support will not help nor adjust the length of vote bans.
The Steam review system was never perfect, but the impact of this kind of behavior from Valve will render the whole system completely pointless, as negative reviews can be culled by the developers/publishers at any time, and people will just stop marking any negative review as useful to avoid these kinds of repercussions.
Until yesterday, when they managed to get a Steam moderator to remove the negative review. In a perfect, consumer-friendly world it should have been another way around, and the game's sales page removed until the claims were investigated by Valve, but this is not a perfect world. However, things didn't end there.
Apparently the Steam moderator categorized the negative review as "attempting to scam users or other violations of Steam's Rules & Guidelines", which meant that all those 2439 people (plus people who have it 437 awards) got their accounts restricted for 30 days, during this time none of them can up- or downvote any Steam reviews at all.
Support tickets from affected users to Steam Support have received a default response saying Support will not help nor adjust the length of vote bans.
The Steam review system was never perfect, but the impact of this kind of behavior from Valve will render the whole system completely pointless, as negative reviews can be culled by the developers/publishers at any time, and people will just stop marking any negative review as useful to avoid these kinds of repercussions.
Small update (Score:5, Insightful)
From after I submitted it, it looks like they blanket banned all negative reviews, at least all those mentioning privacy issues with the "anti-cheat". So the number of people being collateral damage, because of Valve's obviously faulty system, is probably much more than the original 2400.
The Steam review system has been one of the things that made Steam the better platform above the rest. But if people can no longer vote any reviews helpful, or are too afraid to even add reviews, it would sadly render the whole review system pointless.
At the least, Valve needs to revise the system around these voting bans (and perhaps have a long discussion with the "Steam moderator" who banned the reviews in the first place). The current system is not very good PR for Valve, not even Amazon punishes people for marking reviews helpful.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
That means do not trust any reviews on valve
Re:Small update (Score:5, Insightful)
Until the review is reinstated and everyone negatively affected made whole, the correct answer is to boycott Steam *and* Valve. The company is clearly no longer trustworthy, and is abusing their market power to hide flaws in their products, which is likely to violate any number of laws including the Sherman Act and the Lanham Act. That's a showstopper for any company in my book.
I'll continue playing games that I've already purchased, but I doubt I'll be spending any more money there. Thanks for the heads up.
Re: (Score:2)
The company is clearly no longer trustworthy, and is abusing their market power to hide flaws in their products
Sadly even after this event they are still more trustworthy than every other company out there. I'm usually in favour of boycotts, but not when it would cause me to cease my hobby entirely.
Re: (Score:2)
How about other gaming marketplaces? I haven't heard much about GoG doing shady stuff. Or you can buy games from the developer directly instead of going through Steam.
And yes, to be fair to Valve, it's likely this story is a single instance of overreach by one Valve employee, which will be corrected in due time.
Re: Small update (Score:2)
You may be correct but why attribute malice to Valve when incompetence is far more likely to be the xause
Re: Small update (Score:2)
Like my incompetence in spelling "cause"
Re: It's not your Vote that counts, it's who Count (Score:2)
But people think they care. When they do my care, and it becomes evident to a majority, the lose popular support and most people are eager to find something as good in some aspects as to dumb them. And when you have a bad opinion and no love for an app, you will be glad to mention it to others. Karma works slowly on digital platforms but it is lethal to brand goodwill. Amazon is jangling out on a thread too, but the balance favors them because they have the best warehouses, logistics and good customer servi
Re: (Score:3)
Hello,
Nope, nothing to do with that at all.
Parler violated Amazon's terms of service against hateful content. Good write ups explaining what happened here [npr.org] and here [washingtonpost.com], amongst other places.
Regards,
Aryeh Goretsky
Re: It's not your Vote that counts, it's who Count (Score:2)
>> Wasn't Amazon AWS not long ago banning Parler off their cloud when they decided they didn't like Parler's political leanings?
>Parler violated Amazon's terms of service against hateful content.
Theyâ(TM)re the same picture.
Re: (Score:2)
Hello,
No, they are completely different.
Amazon Web Services is a business and can offer whatever kind of contracts to customers it wants. If a customer signs a contract and then repeatedly breaches the terms, they get booted.
It's called capitalism.
Regards,
Aryeh Goretsky
Re: Small update (Score:2)
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That could never happen.
Isn't that actually Yelp's business model? I'm pretty sure Amazon does this too. Why is Valve a company that wouldn't stoop this low?
time for an CC change back that will make vavle ta (Score:3)
time for an CC change back that will make vavle take action
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Unfortunately that causes an effective account ban, on everything you have purchased.
https://help.steampowered.com/... [steampowered.com]
They will hold your account hostage (probably with hundreds of games in your backlog), until you can resolve the issue.
They might be more benevolent than other storefronts, and *might* give you a break. But that is not a fight I would be willing to make over a single game review.
Re: (Score:2)
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It's policy, not law. Valve can do what they want and are basically unaccountable.
Ultimately if they go too far, the law kicks in, though, and no company is so big that a bunch of state attorneys general can't get their attention.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
From after I submitted it, it looks like they blanket banned all negative reviews, at least all those mentioning privacy issues with the "anti-cheat". So the number of people being collateral damage, because of Valve's obviously faulty system, is probably much more than the original 2400.
Yes, this is an extremely shitty thing to do. But being shitty is not illegal.
The answer here is simple. Stop being mindless sheeple. Stop giving Valve your money.
Re: (Score:2)
TL:DR; That Steam discussion page mentioned this is the way to post a ticket if you are banned:
Help > Steam Support > Steam Community > I need help with something not listed here > Contact Steam Support > post ticket.
Re: (Score:2)
Gabe is usually pretty approachable. You might want to escalate this to him.
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The Steam review system has been one of the things that made Steam the better platform above the rest. But if people can no longer vote any reviews helpful, or are too afraid to even add reviews, it would sadly render the whole review system pointless.
One example of a shitty moderation on a single product does not make an entire system pointless. This is truly shitty, but Steam reviews are none the less the better platform above the rest.
Re: (Score:2)
This does not render the review system pointless, it rendered it actively harmful and misleading. We can all agree that their are certain things you might be able to put in a text review that would get you in trouble (well arguably they are curated before being posted I believe, so technically by the time the public can see them, it is Valve who should be liable). But liking a review? The system should not even allow someone to be punished for liking a review. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever h
Re: Small update (Score:2)
With a typical geek enrolled on tens of platforms and doing thousands of posting, this sort of behaviour is a time sink.
We need a true federated infastructure, where the client is a true peer. You post to *your* device in the context of a valve forum thread or whatever. Your device then federates with valve and licences out your content to them for thier use. But you retain the master copy and can federate it out to another forum or client
This functionality should really be baked into the OS
No link (Score:2)
No link to any reporting. No evidence other than a screenshot with a red band but no text in it. Another win, /. editors.
Re:No link (Score:5, Informative)
Hi,
Here is the link to the banned review which affected me, if it helps.
https://steamcommunity.com/pro... [steamcommunity.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Their is no text... When did that change, it says that the reviewer is unable to change the text of the review, did a moderator delete it or was this always the review?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:No link (Score:5, Insightful)
It is important to take these stories with a grain of salt. The narrative being spun here is that a well intentioned gamer exposed and evil game company and was punished for it, but there have also been cases of negative reviews with ulterior motives, including competitors trying to sabotage a project or even extortion. While the later 'ther violations of Steam's Rules & Guidelines' is pretty vague, the 'attempting to scam users ' is an interesting and more specific accusation.
That is literally all moot. Unless all of those 2,400 accounts have no purchases and were created just to troll the game publisher, those represent real people — real users — whose accounts are being held hostage for agreeing with a review — not for clicking "Agree" in response to getting paid, not for posting bad reviews, but for reading the review and saying that it was helpful in deciding whether or not to buy the game.
Among other things, this behavior has a massive chilling effect, making people fear marking negative reviews as helpful, lest they be banned. This behavior means that useful negative reviews will get buried, while positive reviews will be pumped up, creating a potential Lanham Act problem (false advertising). And so on.
*If*, and strong emphasis on *if*, the review was in some way untrue, then removing it and temporarily banning the poster might be warranted. But temporarily banning the people who upvoted it is just plain wrong, so Steam absolutely should be blamed for 2,499 of those bans, whereas the developer should be blamed for only one.
As for the publisher, if they think that banning people en masse for being concerned about the privacy impact of their cheat detection is going to make people more likely to buy their game, know that I had never read the review, and might never have read the review, but I will remember the names Toylogic and Plaion now, and won't be touching their games with a ten-meter pole.
Re: (Score:2)
whose accounts are being held hostage
It is worth mentioning that the only thing these accounts aren't able to do is post reviews or comments. Not really a "hostage" situation.
Shitty I agree, but let's not blow this out of proportion. No one is unable to play games, or purchase games. Steam isn't primarily a review site, it's a small side feature.
It's like saying my car is held hostage when my girlfriend puts a coke in the cup holder leaving me no place to put my coffee. Drinking isn't the reason we use the car.
Re: (Score:2)
Everyone including the devs seem to agree that the review was accurate at one point.
The people banned for liking the review seem to have been banned automatically for having liked a review that steam took down. But since they did this a few people are posting about having never heard of this game before getting banned for it. So their is some minor evidence that some minor hacked accounts were used for boosting. But it was clearly one of the most important reviews on that game. It is the sort of review to g
You only think you have made a purchase on Steam (Score:5, Insightful)
In reality you don't even have the rights that someone who bought the dvd does.
Using their "service" is just inviting them to eventually screw you over.
Re:You only think you have made a purchase on Stea (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:You only think you have made a purchase on Stea (Score:5, Informative)
Or, buy your games from a DRM friendly seller, like GOG or itch.io
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
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https://chimeraos.org
Might be the solution to your disdain for gaming on Windows.
Re: (Score:2)
"and buy" Steam works exactly like GOG or itch. You need to have the game downloaded and offline to be save from it being taken away from you.
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Download to external drive for archival reasons. There are ways to make you library run without the steam client installed
Literally zero people are unable to login to Steam as a result of this or unable to play games. The only thing they can't do is post reviews. It's shitty, but it's completely i-fucking-relevant to 99.99% of the Steam userbase.
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Wrong.
Stop using Steam for a month (Score:5, Interesting)
Just stop.
They will get the message and jump through their asshole to get it fixed.
Money talks. Sometimes, you have to make it shout.
Re: (Score:2)
Um, how would Steam know you are not using it because of this, specifically?
Re: (Score:2)
Just stop.
They will get the message and jump through their asshole to get it fixed.
Money talks. Sometimes, you have to make it shout.
LOL, this is Valve. They don't "jump" on anything. The do what they want, at a leisurely pace, because they can. They can because they know you'll keep pouring money into their coffers anyway.
Whatever made you think Valve would be "responsive"? Half-Life 3 when?
Re: (Score:1)
They can because they know you'll keep pouring money into their coffers anyway.
I agree with you about how they think, but I'm not so sure they are correct. Look at what a disaster Alyx has been. Sales of that entrant in the Half Life series are way under previous numbers, possibly because of lack of hardware, possibly due to apathy or quality issues. Either way, nobody is irreplaceable. I am happy with Valve for supporting Linux but disappointed in how they've behaved with Steam. GOG has been a much better fit for my needs than Steam. I've mostly spent my gaming money there, instead,
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They can because they know you'll keep pouring money into their coffers anyway.
LOL
I don't even HAVE Steam installed. My sons do, though.
Re: (Score:2)
Money talks. Sometimes, you have to make it shout.
Precisely zero people will boycott Steam over this. Steam isn't primarily a review site, the inability to post reviews (the only thing restricted here) is something no one will care about.
I'll wager even the original poster of this article is still running the Steam client and playing games.
Done with Steam (Score:4, Insightful)
Over a thousand games and I actually own none.
And now they're censoring (+ punishing) honest, bad reviews if the publisher pays them?
I'm done with Steam. Gonna stick to GoG and other places that let you actually own the game.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Not that I am defending Steam's actions here, but Steam is not a DRM unless you are playing a game that explicitly uses Valve's anti-cheat or some other Steam dependencies, and absolutely no one is required to use those to get their game listed on Steam in the first place. There is no difference in ownership of games on Steam and GoG. Censoring and punishing honest reviews is bad, but ultimately has nothing to do with DRM or whether you own the game or not. Likewise, the suspension of these accounts did not
Re:Done with Steam (Score:4, Informative)
There is no difference in ownership of games on Steam and GoG
GoG lets you download a completely offline installer, that you can put on a shelf and use in the future with no internet connection or authentication whatsoever -- I don't know if this can be accomplished with Steam, but if you can they don't make it easy or obvious
Re: (Score:1)
Steam has an "Offline" mode to do just that, and I don't mean just "Offline" status to friends. Once downloaded, you can go into Offline Mode, install and play. The only caveat to that are the games that themselves require an internet connection of some sort for whatever reason, obviously. Steam itself does not force you to be online to play games, only individual games do that.
Re: (Score:1)
Basically, the only difference between Steam and GoG is delivery method and the fact that Steam has more services overall they offer to devs. Actual ownership is the same.
Re: (Score:2)
Most importantly, Steam has excellent Linux support.
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Yes true, and as I said over there, holy shit you are stupid.
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You do have to be online for the first launcb of any game. After that, offline mode can work.
Re:Done with Steam (Score:4, Informative)
GoG doesn't allow any of their games to use any DRM. Plus you don't need "offline" mode from client software in any capacity at any time.
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That's fine and all. But that is why GoG has less to offer. Point is, Steam can do it.
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Pretty sure everything on Steam has at least Steam guard on it.
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Steam Guard is just Steam's 2FA for your account. Has nothing to do with individual games. Unless a game can require it, but I haven't seen that.
Re: (Score:2)
Stop spreading miss information.
You **DO NOT** own anything you "buy" through steam.
Steam is a STREAMING platform legally speaking.
If you don't believe me, just pay attention to their usage of words: you don't buy anymore but rather purchase.
Furthermore, go ahead and read the fineprint whenever you "buy" a game.
https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#1 [steampowered.com]
I will quote it for you:
Re: (Score:2)
Lmao, holy shit you are stupid. Purchase is the act of Buying by definition. And, of course, in their legalese they refer to licensing vs ownership, because unfortunately they need to specify that just because you bought a copy of the game you can't automatically do whatever you want with the contents. Software has been that way for decades: you purchase a license that activates the product. Physical copies used to have codes in their box. Lots of software license keys are still emailed out. Steam is just d
Re: (Score:2)
Sick of pretending this outdated DRM is somehow a good thing.
Over a thousand games and I actually own none.
Literally no one's ability to play a game is affected by this. Actually I'll offer a happy counter example to the anti-DRM diatribe. I pre-ordered a game that was put on legal hold and banned from sale on day of release due to a developer dispute resulting in a court order to withhold the game from sale. And yet on the day of release this game which was pulled from Steam, with the page taken down, and not on sale, was still in my library, still able to be played, and after installing even able to be played
Time to list alternatives (Score:2)
They've grown too much of a monopoly anyway, so where to go now?
Re:Time to list alternatives (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
gog.com
Speaking of Gog, at one time they just carried old games that Valve didn't. Now I notice some of the same games popping up over there too. Of course, you'll never get the Valve titles there, but if Gog can expand their catalog...
Industry embracing fascism (Score:5, Interesting)
Video game journalists have no integrity - they agree to a 'review hold' if their pre-release review is negative
Video game companies have no integrity - see, eg, Electronic Arts
Is it a surprise that Steam, a 3rd party payment platform, has gone the same route?
It appears that on the internet, accusing a company of illegal acts or actual malfeasance violates 'the terms of service.' All it probably takes is a nasty letter from a lawyer and whatever idiot intern Steam has working as the moderator hits the ban key. This case is only noteworthy because they scared the intern enough into agreeing with them that it was a 'conspiracy' of all 2400 people who voted it helpful.
FWIW it is much worse on reddit. I posted a negative review of The Outer Wilds that got immediately removed for violating subreddit rules based on the fact that the mods all worked for the company.
Video games are a total waste of your life, health, money and sanity.
Re:Industry embracing fascism (Score:5, Interesting)
With Reddit, the fear of the mods is more likely that they fear their Subreddit (and thus their "power") is being removed if Reddit somehow deems it too controversial. And since Reddit doesn't even bother telling anyone what they deem controversial, let's err on the safe side and just remove anything that anyone could be offended by.
The most powerful form of censorship is getting people to self-censor.
Re: (Score:2)
Very anecdotally I've heard that typical Reddit mods feel alone and hung out to dry. They get no support or tools from Reddit and have their hands full just dealing with ordinary minutiae. However I think it cuts both ways, it attracts power trippers and those with axes to grind.
Self-censorship is just a small step away from living in The Matrix. IMO a whole generation has been brainwashed by and lost to the very institutes of higher education that we pushed them into.
Re: (Score:3)
Every public forum on the internet is being hijacked by the censors... It's funny to me how the media, and only the media, pretend that the evidence for things like the official Covid narratives are beyond debate.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
I think we've had a one-party system with a Left and Right face for a very long time and many things that are common knowledge are exactly backwards!
The media especially is controlled, it doesn't matter whether it is Left or Right, its purpose is disinformation and division to push the agenda of dividing and destroying our culture, similar to what the Bolsheviks did in Russia or the Communists did in China. There are theatrical topics like abortion and global warming designed to get everyone outraged and
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The real world is a bigger waste of life, health, money, and sanity.
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HAHAHA. I was gonna say that everyone I know who has achieved anything meaningful in life has an attitude of mild to moderate contempt for video games
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I recommend you try sex with real women, skating, and some live Metal shows. Those have convinced me that maybe video games aren't the best use of all my free time.
It's almost like I can do all four. Well, I specifically can't, and will never be able to, skate, but can do similar things. I can also do real drugs and drink real alcohol. Point is your examples don't suddenly make the real world better than video games.
Re: (Score:1)
Wow the word fascism has really lost all meaning, hasn't it? unless there's some hyper-nationalist militarism that's relevant here that i'm missing...
Re: (Score:2)
https://www.merriam-webster.co... [merriam-webster.com]
2. a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
https://www.merriam-webster.co... [merriam-webster.com]
2. one who has undisputed influence or power
Thank you for playing. Please go back to climbing your Dunning-Kruger mountain.
Re: Industry embracing fascism (Score:2)
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Video game journalists have no integrity - they agree to a 'review hold' if their pre-release review is negative
Ran one of the biggest independent gaming sites in Australia for 15 years and routinely worked with every publisher on every major game release and this happened zero times. Sure, Australia, so small market and maybe things are different here, but the "no integrity in games journalism" is a tires trope from GamerGate that unfairly maligns a lot of hard working, honest people.
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No one gives a shit about Australia, which is a laughably fascist country in general
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heh you sound just exactly like every sad-ass gamer who had something happened to them in or because of a game and it made them uncomfortable for one sixteenth of a nanosecond, and then they go on to let it colour literally everything else that happens in their life
Underlying issue with the anti-cheat system (Score:5, Informative)
For the curious, here is some info about the problems with the anti-cheat system in Warlander [gamingph.com]:
Also: https://www.gamepressure.com/n... [gamepressure.com] https://www.metacritic.com/gam... [metacritic.com]
Re:Underlying issue with the anti-cheat system (Score:5, Insightful)
Basically, they got caught doing something they know they shouldn't be doing and immediately went into damage control mode and are trying the standard "it was a bug" excuse to try to escape responsibility.
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Also when you uninstall the game, it leaves bits of the "anticheat" mess behind with dll files and such remaining on the system which makes it pretty suspect and definitely a privacy concern.
Makes no sense (Score:3, Interesting)
email Gabe (Score:2)
https://www.valvesoftware.com/... [valvesoftware.com]
I just sent Gabe Newell a message letting him know how I feel about not being able to trust Steam and that I won't be spending any more money on his platform. You should too. How many customers need to walk before they get the message?
Streisand Effect Incoming (Score:3)
What a boneheaded move by the Developer. They just tanked their own business.
I am about to log onto Steam and check out the reviews for the game, but I already know what I am going to see.
Looks like that moderator needs to get fired (Score:2)
Also, if that anti-cheat phoned home without getting informed consent first, that software is illegal in the EU.
Re: Looks like that moderator needs to get fired (Score:2)
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Not good enough. The GDPR specifically states that you have to be informed about the data collection and you have to give informed consent to it. Burying it somewhere in the EULA isn't cutting it.
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Not good enough. The GDPR specifically states that you have to be informed about the data collection and you have to give informed consent to it. Burying it somewhere in the EULA isn't cutting it.
Indeed. Even an overly complex cookie consent pop-up is invalid under the law. It has to be clear and precise and understandable to a person somewhat below average. An EULA is meaningless regarding the GDPR.
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EULAs are not valid in most of the world, including most US states, and all of the EU.
They should have to declare anticheat on store pag (Score:4, Insightful)
Taking a page from EBay are we Valve? (Score:2)
People selling fraudulent/counterfeit goods get bad reviews, they complain saying it's not true, EBay or Amazon put the onus on the reviewer to PROVE it's fake (like you can't tell when an Apple Watch or some expensive perfume is not the real thing) or they remove the bad review.
It's harder to leave a truthful negative review on these platforms than it is for a mentally-unstable teenager to buy a gun in the US.
Well duh! (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Well technically valve, since they are the "publisher" for 99% of all games have a vested interest in making sure its customers end up buying the games that will leave them with the best possible experience. They may also prefer that they buy games developed by Valve or alternatively with a large price to length ratio, but they don't care what games people purchase.
Streisand Effect? (Score:2)
Wait, the game is free-to-play. So one can download it from Steam for free.
Once one has downloaded it, one can vote on it.
There is no comment necessary do give a negative vote.
How exactly is the game company intending to prevent negative votes?
Fits the pattern (Score:2)
Valve does not like reviews that complain about DRM and has been removing their ratings from the global score. They consider them "off topic": https://www.dualshockers.com/s... [dualshockers.com]
Trumped (Score:2)
Gets really serious when it's about Video Games
Reviews (Score:2)
While not directly related, I would like to mention some of my experiences with reviews.
Once upon a time I reviewed a product I had bought on Amazon marketplace. The seller contacted me and offered cash (in the form of a partial refund) if I deleted my review. Very double edged, this... I could get into the habit of writing slightly negative reviews just to see if I am offered a price again!
On another occasion I reviewed a company on Trust Pilot. The owner of the business offered a freebie if I deleted my r
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That's the key problem here, people are bastards. Without them, we'd have a far better world.
First, the obvious. The "gimme free stuff or I review you into the abyss" assholes who try to blackmail stores into handing out freebies so they don't get bad reviews. How this works is pretty easy, they first order a bunch of cheap crap and post honest reviews about that so they get good "karma" or whatever being a trustworthy reviewer is called on a particular platform. They usually then test the waters by buying
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If you blame Steam, sure.
But it looks like the developer reported the posts, and they are from Japan.
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Because such a thing won't work. How do you plan to curate it? How are you going to tell the genuine reports from fake ones?
Let's pretend I want to blackmail companies into giving me money so I don't slander them. What I'd do is, I create a profile, buy some cheap shit and give out honest reviews. They get vetted and they will be considered genuine. I'll do that for, say, a year. Then I buy something expensive from a new vendor that entered the market place and inform that company that they either give it t