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Transportation United States

US Proposes Requiring New Cars To Have Automatic Braking Systems (nytimes.com) 142

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has proposed a rule that would require all new cars and trucks to have automatic braking systems capable of preventing collisions. The rule aims to address the rise in traffic fatalities and would mandate the use of advanced systems that can automatically stop and avoid hitting pedestrians and stationary or slow-moving vehicles. The New York Times reports: The agency is proposing that all light vehicles, including cars, large pickup trucks and sport utility vehicles, be equipped to automatically stop and avoid hitting pedestrians at speeds of up to 37 miles per hour. Vehicles would also have to brake and stop to avoid hitting stopped or slow-moving vehicles at speeds of up to 62 m.p.h. And the systems would have to perform well at night. About 90 percent of the new vehicles on sale now have some form of automatic emergency braking, but not all meet the standards the safety agency is proposing.

Automatic emergency braking systems typically use cameras, radar or both to spot vehicles, pedestrians, cyclists and other obstacles. By comparing a vehicle's speed and direction with those of other vehicles or people, these systems can determine that a collision is imminent, alert the driver through an alarm and activate the brakes if the driver fails to do so. [...] The safety agency will take comments on the rule from automakers, safety groups and the public before making it final -- a process that can take a year or more. The rule will go into effect three years after it is adopted.

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US Proposes Requiring New Cars To Have Automatic Braking Systems

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  • by Joe_Dragon ( 2206452 ) on Thursday June 01, 2023 @08:28PM (#63569155)

    need to ban makeing this an DLC as that last thing we need an back door to remove right to repair and so they can't force an fee just to be able to use the car.

  • by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Thursday June 01, 2023 @08:33PM (#63569161)
    Cars are already becoming unaffordable. I think overall these features would save money across the entire fleet by reducing accidents but that doesn't matter to somebody making $15 an hour that needs to buy a car to get to work. If they were other options besides car ownership that were practical that would be less of an issue. But we've built our entire economy around cars and only a handful of Americans can go without one.
    • by fermion ( 181285 )
      People are choosing to buy fancier mor expensive cars. But really there are a lot of cars that can be had for under 35,000, the inflation adjusted price of one the cheapest cars you could buy inn1980. For instance, a fully equipped Kia Forte with braking is under $30,000.

      There is also insurance to think about as the total cost of ownership. I have seen lower insurance rates due to a car being very hard to steal, for example.

      • People are choosing to buy fancier mor expensive cars.

        Mostly that's because what you can afford has more to do with your credit score than your income level. If you have excellent credit, you can stretch out the loan until the heat death of the universe to get the monthly payment within your budget. Sure, you're paying through the nose in interest, but lots of people don't care about that. Hell, the entire concept of leasing a car is basically just pissing away all the money you're spending and that's still an incredibly popular thing to do.

        Same thing happe

        • Mostly that's because what you can afford has more to do with your credit score than your income level. If you have excellent credit, you can stretch out the loan until the heat death of the universe to get the monthly payment within your budget. Sure, you're paying through the nose in interest, but lots of people don't care about that. Hell, the entire concept of leasing a car is basically just pissing away all the money you're spending and that's still an incredibly popular thing to do.

          I think my last ca

      • I know the numbers say fancier cars are selling more, but the fleet is aging rapidly.

        That probably means that people who still make good money are choosing fancier cars, but the bottom 80% are forced to make due. The lower end that your retail or restaurant worker would buy is gone, but they still need cars. So they're driving older and older cars.

        I drove an old car for a long time, and it was a constant stream of problems. I had a very understanding boss and a job I could work from home as needed,
        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          It's not because cars have more tech in them though. It's because vendors have moved away from outright sales to finance. The retail price doesn't matter to many buyers, only the monthly cost of the loan or lease agreement.

          It works out great for manufacturers, who are often the ones providing the loans. They get the interest, and at the end of the finance/lease period they often get the car back so they can sell it again.

    • This is essentially a software update and one more button on the dashboard as far as modern vehicles are concerned. I doubt it will move the needle as far as new car affordability goes, and as it is, the main reason the US lacks affordable new cars is because it's more profitable to sell expensive cars to the well-to-do folks.

    • They won't make cars less expensive. They will make them vastly more so. Every safety feature that's been mandated since seat belts (those actually were cheap) has both added expense to manufacture cars and have increased weight making them less efficient.

      It's almost as if the Lefitists in this country want to make everything they dislike too expensive for the common person so that only the wealthy elite can still afford convenience and freedom. Everyone else will be stuck on public transit and be living

      • It's almost as if the Lefitists in this country want to make everything they dislike too expensive for the common person so that only the wealthy elite can still afford convenience and freedom. Everyone else will be stuck on public transit and be living in their small stack and pack housing on rationed water, electricity (no gas appliances allowed) and no beef from farting cows.

        You will own nothing....and be happy.

        ...Sound familiar?

    • Eh... cars are completely affordable. All you have to do is blow all your savings and live like a pauper to afford the important stuff. The reason why these things are so damned expensive is because people find ways to afford them whether they can or not.

      I remember when I was working in a warehouse a long time ago. It pissed me off to no end how I was saving in a 401K while my colleagues all had shiny new iPods and drove used F150's and BMWs... and then whined all days about how broke they were.

      'Merica!

    • Its simple. Either people stop using their goddamn phones while driving, or we go fully autonomous. These half measures are just expensive and fail to do shit. Automatic braking only exists because the driver was distracted to begin with. Ever driven near the miami airport? Its a wonder there isnt a fatality every 5 min. If any area would be mandated fully autonomous, that would be the first.
    • Cars are already becoming unaffordable

      You will own nothing...and be happy.

    • It does if the reduction in their insurance premiums offsets the additional cost.
    • Don't worry. Once we get fully automated vehicles, they'll outlaw ownership and you'll have to rent per trip. It'll be a glorious when only the richest of the rich can own their own, and the rest of us have to use yesterday's puke-stained non-cleaned auto-driver to get to work each morning, and pay for the privilege.

  • by backslashdot ( 95548 ) on Thursday June 01, 2023 @08:51PM (#63569211)

    A lot of accidents are caused by forward cross-traffic collisions when crossing an intersection (9,000 deaths per year in the US, countless injuries). Very few cars seem to have safety features to address that, and the few that do seem to be inadequate. If a car can detect that somebody is about to run a stop sign or red light .. the car should be able to brake or even accelerate such that the passenger compartment is protected. I get that it might not be able to prevent the accident entirely .. but a couple seconds or even a few hundred milliseconds ought to be enough for it to save the passenger compartment. The key would be side facing cameras and radar on the bumper.

    • The idea of breaking or, in particular, accelerating on imminent side impact is good. But as someone who's caught themselves actually doing it, this is one decision I would never, ever, want my car to make for me.

      Too many things play a role: available emergency flight path, eye contact, pedestrians, curve-ahead etc. In this regard I'm a fairly attentive and reflexive driver, and I'll rely on that. And I don't want my car interfering with my split-second decision, e.g. break when I've decided to accelerate (

      • What I applaud, OTOH, is e.g. using front parking distance sensors on unavoidable imminent high-speed crashes to trigger the breaks a few fractions of a second earlier, e.g. as soon as the sensors register the other vehicle. That's about 3-5 meters, can take away a lot of energy. Or even use front-facing cameras and lidar to increase the range. But it's a wire dance trying to augmented early enough, but without entering the range where the driver might still have a legitimate different option.

        That's how automatic braking works now. It'll sound an alarm and pre-charge the brakes. If you don't do anything, it'll engage them when the collision is (almost) unavoidable.

    • This is a difficult problem to solve. In many cases, the car running the red light is masked by other traffic (stationary lines e.g. waiting to turn left) until you're already in the intersection, and then you're too late do do anything.

      • Hm that does make sense and I agree, there are many such situations where it cannot do anything but there also should be many cases when it can be helpful in at least reducing crash severity.

    • Those are much better prevented work better road design. Cars have got very wide for side impact protection, but there's a limit.

  • by silentbozo ( 542534 ) on Thursday June 01, 2023 @09:01PM (#63569245) Journal

    If auto-brakes weren't enough to prevent a collision, or they weren't applied (due to sensor failure, local conditions, programming edge case), then who gets sued now?

    The manufacturer?
    The mechanic?
    The driver?

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Same people who get sued when airbags and crumple zones aren't enough to protect the occupants.

    • In that case I would say the driver, and to be honest I don't see why it would be anyone else. If for whatever reason my ABS fails and I crash into someone in a situation that system would avoid it, it would still be my fault for driving in a way that put me in that position.

      When you look at systems like Volvo's city safety there are plenty of disclaimers to warn you this is not a flawless system, it's just there lurking in the background so that under certain conditions when people get distracted and mess

    • Same as always, the operator of the car is ultimately responsible for their car and it's actions.
    • Option C: the driver.

      The manufacturer did sufficient testing to show that, at road-legal speeds, the braking system is adequate ; the mechanic (should) be able to document his maintenance work on the brakes to keep them within the manufacturer's design spec. Which leaves the driver (or possibly the owner, for hired cars) who has to be able to prove that they reacted in a timely manner, weren't speeding, and had kept the vehicle properly maintained at manufacturer-approved maintenance shops all the time.

      Co

    • then who gets sued now?

      The driver. This isn't some new technology or untested legal ground. The driver is the operator of a vehicle and is 100% responsible for its actions. We're talking about a driver assist function, not a fully self driving car.

  • If you are at fault in a car accident then its a US5K fine for the first and a 30 license suspension. Second offense increases by US2500 and a 90 day suspension, third offense is 10k and a 6 month suspension. This is in addition to whatever civil damages are warranted.

    • Draconian cracking is not a good solution.

      America has, largely speaking, awfully designed roads. In addition, heavy tricks and SUVs which are light trucks are exempt from many safety regulations. In addition they have poor visibility and are dangerous to others in a crash: for s some reason the safety tests only include same category collisions.

      Finally the act of assigning blame to individuals prevents those problems being addressed.

    • That would be a 30 day suspension before you can make your first attempt at re-passing the driving license ?

      Clearly your previous exposure to "driver education" did not work - you were either driving wrongly, or you were insufficiently attentive to other road users and made bad decisions. Therefore you need to go through "driver education" again, then re-sit and pass the driver's test in order to gain a license to drive.

      Obviously, your insurance is invalid during the suspension so will be cancelled (refun

  • Keep it up (Score:3, Insightful)

    by jmccue ( 834797 ) on Thursday June 01, 2023 @09:05PM (#63569261) Homepage

    At the rate all these new addons are going, the cheapest autos will cost $200,000 brand new in today's dollars. Already new cars are too expensive and seems we are heading to be like Cuba in the 80s, everyone driving 30 year old cars.

    From memory we have backup camaras, internet tracking, proposed breath analyzers now this.

    I am in a 17 year old car, and I guess I will need to keep it longer, maybe never by new again. I hope the auto companies are listening.

    • Except Teslas can be had new for ~$35k and come standard with this technology.

      The "increasing deaths" part is pedestrians and can largely be blamed on the move towards SUVs and Trucks for everything.

      We're moving on from "accident mitigation" where the car sacrifices itself to save the occupants, to a system of "accident avoidance", where the goal is to not hit anything in the first place. Which is drastically cheaper. Hell, ask the military - which is cheaper: An abrams surviving an RPG hi

      • Except Teslas can be had new for ~$35k and come standard with this technology.

        $41,880 for a base model 3 [tesla.com], but otherwise your point stands.

        • https://electrek.co/2023/06/01... [electrek.co]

          I remembered seeing the above, vaguely. $37k. Add in some state level rebates or such...

          Hell, my corolla has this tech, even if it probably isn't as capable as the legislation wants, and it's around $25k.

          • by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

            Hell, my corolla has this tech, even if it probably isn't as capable as the legislation wants, and it's around $25k.

            AEB can be done if your car already has sensors for it - notably cameras and radar for things like lane keeping and smart cruise control.

            That's really what it is - the cameras and technology are already there and being built into vehicles today. AEB was something that only fancy cars had maybe 15-20 years ago, now it's trickled down into cars everyday people use, so the marginal costs to add i

        • by micheas ( 231635 )

          Pre-built cars are cheaper than made to order at this time.

          It seems like they are trying to flush out inventory for a minor refresh

    • This is exactly what is happening.

      Average new car price in the US is over $48,000.

      https://jalopnik.com/new-cars-... [jalopnik.com]

      • Always ask "is this a big number or a small number?"

        The inflation-adjusted average new car price has been declining since around 1998. The big increase was from 1980-1987. The CPI for new cars has bee relatively flat since 1996.

        At the moment we are still seeing the effects of a one-off supply shock. When you are supply constrained, the obvious manufacturing and sales responds is to concentrate on higher margin models.

        • > Always ask "is this a big number or a small number?"

          In that case the only acceptable number is percentage of income. And somehow add ownership costs to that number (which the autobrake system will increase).
          I'd even argue for percentage of disposable income, but that's because I'm from Europe.

    • My car is three years old and already has this auto braking system. 33k out the door. It also has parking sensors, auto headlights, auto high beams, auto wipers, adaptive cruise with lane centering, lane departure warning, auto dim of rear view mirror, auto climate, and with remote start auto defrost and heated seats. The tech is mostly already there might as well use it for something to save lives.

      Backup cameras have been mandated for years now. There are like 9 air bags.

      I get where you are coming fr
    • This : I am in a 17 year old car, and I guess I will need to keep it longer, automatically puts you into the category of people who the auto companies are not listening to. You are a self-proclaimed member of Homo sapiens unprofitable, not H. sap. profitable ; they don't care about the unprofitable. Not at all.
  • Most automakers have already promised to make AEB standard [iihs.org] across 95% of their product line. They made the pledge back in 2016 [iihs.org]. It's pretty hard to make a good argument against it other than cost, but doing it across whole product lines does mean making it cheaper. It might even be a good idea to mandate it even (or especially?) on vehicles with self-driving features, as a separate backup that can override the main computer.

  • by gillbates ( 106458 ) on Thursday June 01, 2023 @10:14PM (#63569371) Homepage Journal

    So instead of just steering around a pedestrian, my car applies the brakes without my knowledge, putting the car into an uncontrolled skid?! Has anyone thought this through?

    When I was younger, I learned to drive safely on ice and snow. However, I also learned that applying the brakes while steering would cause a front wheel drive car to spin out of control. The problem was that I had enough traction to steer, or to brake, but not both.

    This was fairly easy to learn. Instead of trying to stop on icy pavement, I'd just steer around it. But if the car itself applies the brakes without my consent or knowledge, simply steering around an obstacle (like a pedestrian) may actually cause a preventable collision. Instead of going around the pedestrian, the car would instead skid sideways and hit them broadside.

    We've already seen how airbags increased the cost of vehicles without actually improving safety. Yes, airbags reduce the injury to idiots who can't be bothered to wear a seatbelt, but they do little to nothing for a properly belted driver. It is one thing for a soccer mom to buy a car with automatic braking because she knows she'll be driving and texting, but quite another to force everyone else to buy a car with automatic braking because the government knows soccer moms will be texting and driving.

    • instead of just steering around a pedestrian, my car applies the brakes without my knowledge, putting the car into an uncontrolled skid?! Has anyone thought this through?

      If the car has ABS, that doesn't happen. It doesn't stop either, though, unless it's very good ABS.

      • Yeah ABS has the opposite problem. It will refuse to break on loose snow or gravel, even when it is completely safe and possible to do so, because it is afraid of losing grip on the surface it thinks is solid ice.

        • even when it is completely safe and possible to do so, because it is afraid of losing grip on the surface it thinks is solid ice.

          Jesus this reminds me of the "I'm better than my car" disinformation from the 90s. No ABS is not unable to stop in situations where it is safe to do so. The system objectively kicks in to recover a situation where traction is already lost which is why on a high speed camera you can see the wheels lock and unlock repeatedly when ABS kicks in.

          No, the situation wasn't safe.
          No, you can't stop the car better than ABS can.
          No, actual professional drivers have tried and couldn't either.

    • So you're saying that a good driver is at a disadvantage trying to avoid a low-speed collision, but the average idiots who vastly outnumber them suddenly improve drastically. Statistically, if you're a legislator trying for a net reduction in medical expenses and public complaints... the auto-braking wins.

      And airbags? They absolutely do NOT save people who don't wear seat belts. Failure to wear a seat belt can mean you're dangerously close to the airbag when it goes off... to the point you can be more se

      • He's probably remembering the generation 1 air bags, that were forced to be made with the premise that they needed to protect an unbelted driver/passenger under the premise that there were a lot of them. To be fair, there probably were at that point.

        These days, education and more annoying warnings* means more people are buckled up, and they switched to 2 stage airbags.

        For others reading this: Airbags ABSOLUTELY DO IMPROVE SAFETY. That's why people can walk out of 60 mph accidents with minor injuries thes

    • Geeze dude here's an intro video on ABS [youtube.com] for anybody not familiar with the concept or the fact that it allows you to still turn.
    • We've already seen how airbags increased the cost of vehicles without actually improving safety.

      No we haven't. Except maybe in a few flawed implementations, airbags improve safety.
      https://www.nhtsa.gov/equipmen... [nhtsa.gov]
      https://carbuzz.com/car-advice... [carbuzz.com]
      etc...

      but quite another to force everyone else to buy a car with automatic braking because the government knows soccer moms will be texting and driving.

      The problem is that everybody is convinced they're a good driver, ergo the texting bad driver soccer mom is convinced she's a good driver so she'd buy a big SUV without automatic braking, because who wants that? She's a safe driver... She just wants the massive SUV to make her safer from all the other idiots driving massive SUVs on the road(to be safe

      • No we haven't. Except maybe in a few flawed implementations, airbags improve safety.
        https://www.nhtsa.gov/equipmen [nhtsa.gov]...
        https://carbuzz.com/car-advice [carbuzz.com]...
        etc...

        I wouldn't take safety benefit claims from bodies that push regulations as an honest unbiased assessment of reality. It's not to say the conclusions are necessarily wrong.

        NHTSA never actually measured the effectiveness of airbags. They used a biased dataset that only capture fatal events with obvious confounders such as crumple zones and belt tensioners being introduced or improved in parallel with newer air bag equipped vehicles. They also violated their own inclusion criteria for example failing to exc

    • Electronic Stability Control has been required on new US passenger vehicles since 2012. It is already there. ABS enacts to control skid and also to keep the car from getting into a condition that it could roll - even while you are just driving around that next sharp curve.
    • my car applies the brakes without my knowledge, putting the car into an uncontrolled skid?

      The car is not a stupid human. Only stupid humans drive cars. Why would car the car skid? Between traction control and ABS the only way you can get your car to skid is do something stupid, such as attempt to swerve so severely that you probably should hand your drivers license in right now.

      Anyway your whataboutism is stupid. AEB objectively saves far more lives than it causes in the hands of jittery drivers. It sounds like that pedestrian was going to die one way or another.

  • Blind spot monitoring is the least troublesome and most helpful in my experience. AEB features still aren't smart enough.

  • The proposal should attack growing complexity in all things or "complexity pollution" by mandating the the system be as simple as possible.
  • No. The mandates need to stop and be rolled back until the median income earner can afford a new car.

    Or stop funneling all their wealth to DC and Wall Street.

  • There was a commercial which ran during the Superbowl about Tesla cars. Do these systems really work as advertised? We have a car with some advanced safety features (lane departure, etc.), and they seem to be mostly an annoyance, and I usually end of turning them off when I drive. Will these really save lives for all of the costs? I'm just curious about the cost-benefit.

    • I have rented cars with some of these "advanced safety features" and was thoroughly disappointed. However, when I've discussed this on slashdot before, Tesla owners have posted their own experiences which were vastly different. "Lane departure" is not "lane keeping." The "lane departure" feature is too little too late and likely to only kick in by mistake or if you are too incapacitated to drive. The Tesla lane keeping will hold the vehicle dead center in the lane.
  • that big Tesla leak and phantom breaking causing accidents?

    Why don't we wait until the tech proves itself because I don't think it's there yet.
  • by schwit1 ( 797399 ) on Friday June 02, 2023 @09:43AM (#63570473)

    If people stand in front and behind a car will it stop the vehicle from escaping?

  • Its great cars are getting safer and safer, but many of those features are not necessary for a majority of many people's driving. Many people have short commutes to work/shopping/school and don't need a car that can withstand a 50mph crash. Some places allow people to drive golf carts which are slower and safer. Its not a solution for everyone, but it would be great if more cities allowed them on city streets. They cost less, are easier to maintain, use less fuel, are cheaper to fix (don't cost $1000+ to fi

  • ...are the ways one could come up with hypotheticals where the unexpected braking causes unintended consequences. I drove some mountain roads with no center lines or guard rails a couple years ago on vacation, and I can imagine encountering a slow vehicle around a blind curve and going flying. Like the ABS of old, that didn't stop for squat on gravel or snow, this will almost certainly be bad news for some driving situations that a human could handle just fine. All it really needs is a switch to turn

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