New York City Sues Kia and Hyundai Over Car Thefts That Went Viral on TikTok (theverge.com) 98
New York City became the latest city to file suit against Hyundai and Kia over a rash of vehicle thefts that went viral on TikTok and other social media platforms in recent years, according to The Wall Street Journal. From a report: In its lawsuit, the US attorney's office for the Southern District of New York claims the automakers were guilty of negligence by failing to include anti-theft devices in their cars that would have made them much harder to steal. The so-called "Kia Challenge" has led to hundreds of car thefts nationwide, including at least 14 reported crashes and eight fatalities, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Thieves known as the "Kia Boys" would post instructional videos on YouTube and TikTok about how to bypass the vehicles' security systems using tools as simple as a USB cable. Other videos would feature joyrides in stolen vehicles and the resulting property destruction.
Shouldn't this be regulated? (Score:4, Interesting)
I mean I get it --- cities (except for San Francisco i guess lmao) are spending a ton of money on this, insurance is spending a ton of money on this. Kia is shifting the burden onto everyone else.
But, shouldn't this be regulated? How liable is Kia really, if they're following the rules?
Re: Shouldn't this be regulated? (Score:2)
Re: Shouldn't this be regulated? (Score:2)
If we had laws that equaled real jail time, people might stop committing crimes. As it stands theyâ(TM)re in and out due to overcrowding and lax prosecution.
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So public flogging like in Singapore then?
Re: Shouldn't this be regulated? (Score:2)
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You should give Larry Niven's "Known Space" series a read, in particular the stories in "The Long ARM of Gil Hamilton" ... that path eventually spirals down to jaywalking becoming an organ-donating offense ... and they don't just take the kidneys.
Re: Shouldn't this be regulated? (Score:3)
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when baby goats
Leave the kids out of it, puh-leaze!
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Kind of an off-topic tangent, but this is because the ranting from the tighty-rightys about "defund the police" has largely been projection. They want to bash more progressive cities and states for "defunding the police" which never happened, while they themselves attempt to tear down the reputation of the FBI and the Department of Justice, including calls [msnbc.com] for [thehill.com] defunding [rollingstone.com] the [cnn.com] FBI [nypost.com] and DOJ [forbes.com].
At this point we should not be surprised by the extreme hypocrisy coming from the right on literally anything.
Defunding the FBI would be dumb (Score:2)
> Kind of an off-topic tangent, but this is because the ranting from the tighty-rightys about "defund the police" has largely been projection.
Well, it was mostly a stupid idea from activists that got walked back after most people were against it, especially black people [washingtonexaminer.com].
What actually got implemented was a that reduction of shoplifting under $950 to a misdemeanor [guidelinelaw.com] which lead to an epidemic of shoplifting [nytimes.com] which forced many retailiers to close along with other reductions in prosecuting crime [abc7.com]. While in other
Just price everything $950+x - (member discount) (Score:1)
That way, every product is $950+realprice, unless you're a member of the shop which can be done on purchase time.
Therefore every product stolen will be retail $950+x ticketed - bingo - call the cops - taser them till they shit their pants and
create a naked prison - no clothes allowed.
Re: Defunding the FBI would be dumb (Score:1)
"Defund the FBI" is a rather broad term, which I suspect was used to get low-information voters interested. More accurately, the calls are to get rid of the bad players, narrowly restate what is allowed, and defund what is not. "Sorry, sir. Congress yanked funding to run that Snoop-o-tron dragnet database."
Most of the regular "defund the police" were about just slashing overall funding.
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Re: Shouldn't this be regulated? (Score:1)
Properly funding police services doesn't matter if the DAs give criminals passes. Look up "Kia Kids" to see why.
Re: Shouldn't this be regulated? (Score:1)
Oh, and laws that trivialize crimes, officially gives passes to minors, and so on.
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SF desperately scrambling to fix their complete and total fuck up from 3 years ago doesn't mean it magically didn't happen you shortsighted fool.
https://abc7news.com/san-franc... [abc7news.com]
Mayor London Breed announced a major budget cut to the San Francisco police and sheriff's departments over the next two years.
In a press conference Friday, the mayor said $120 million in funding would be redirected from law enforcement agencies to instead be spent on addressing disparities in the Black community.
"With this budget, we are listening to the community and prioritizing investments in the African American community around housing, mental health and wellness, workforce development, economic justice, education, advocacy and accountability," said Mayor Breed.
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They didn't have to 'defund', as police simply left after, what you call 'campaign rhetoric', but what I call 'police bashing'.
Full-duty officers 2019: 1,840
Full-duty officers 2022: 1,537
SF got what they wanted: Less police. But now they are having to pay lots of overtime to the remaining officers just to cover for the complete screw-up by the SF mayor and other lefties.
Re: Shouldn't this be regulated? (Score:2)
I would define "police bashing" as literally hitting police with improvised weapons, mace etc, as happened at the Capitol on January 6th. Unfortunately it was diehard conservatives who physically bashed police, not SF politicians.
It's called 'backtracking' (Score:2)
that never happened in SF at all.
Riiiiiightttttt....
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/07/31/897835937/san-francisco-proposes-to-shift-120-million-from-police-to-tackle-racial-dispari
https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/san-francisco-becomes-latest-city-to-reverse-course-and-increase-police-bud/617285/
I mean, your OWN LINK clear shows this 'increase' was just for overtime pay in response to them suddenly being massively understaffed (gee, I wonder why?)
Re: It's called 'backtracking' (Score:2)
Re: Shouldn't this be regulated? (Score:2)
The issue is SF not enforcing laws, which led to SF hiring salaried human excrement cleaners and the loss of numerous businesses due to shoplifting, etc.
Not sure Kia/Hyundai are legally "responsible" for failing to include the latest car theft protection in ALL their vehicles...
Are we equally going after the YouTubers that share the technique, or the kids that steal the cars? Not that I've seen, I SUSPECT (I do not know) the kids have their car thefts downgraded to misdemeanors, and the kids posting the vid
It's not a prosecution it's a lawsuit (Score:1)
All things considered I think that's a reasonable thing to do given the risk and damage to their citizens coupled with the cost of dealing with the stolen vehicles
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Re: It's not a prosecution it's a lawsuit (Score:5, Informative)
Kia and Hyundai didn't cause any legal harm to anyone.
The cars aren't legally required to have transponders or sophisticated anti theft systems, and until fairly recently most cars didn't. They could've put in regular electrical switches for running the things without needing a key at all, like military vehicles.
If the cities have a valid legal claim, than Hyundai and Kia have much larger and more valid legal claims against the cities. The cities have a legal responsibility for policing the cities and stopping car theft. They have caused large amounts of reputational harm to the companies, caused the insurance for them to go way up, and caused them to need to add expensive anti theft features.
The "USB" part is stupid. It's no different than stealing any car without a transponder. You pop out the cylinder and than you turn the actual electrical switch with either something like pliers if the switch has the male end or open needlenose pliers or screwdriver if it's female. The USB part is just rubber a USB A plug is a little bigger than the cam on the cylinder so you can often jam it on the male piece of the electrical switch.
With most old cars thieves would use tools to drill or force the cylinder.
The real news story is how easy it is to reach the cylinder release. You don't need to disassemble anything or even need actual tools. You just pull down the plastic trim underneath the steering wheel with your fingers or prying tool like a screwdriver and the button is right there to pop out the cylinder with a pen or screwdriver.
To reach the cylinder release in my old car, you needed to disassemble almost the entire steering column to reach it.
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It's about taking reasonable care. Immobilizers are old tech and standard equipment in Europe. Low skill car theft is a well known and easily solvable problem.
The city presumably does make a good faith and reasonable effort to prevent crime.
Re: It's not a prosecution it's a lawsuit (Score:2)
The manufacturers in the USA don't have any obligation got anti theft and they could've legally just installed a simple electrical switch like military vehicles use that don't need a key.
Canada and certain countries in Europe started requiring anti theft systems decades ago, but they aren't legally required in the US. That's why they don't sell these models in Canada without transponders.
If they want to make it required, they can do that through the legislators.
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So why don't any manufacturers just fit a switch? Locks and keys are expensive, they could save a lot of money.
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Ever watch The Lock Picking Lawyer on YouTube? Most locks are a joke when it comes to someone who is determined to bypass it.
Presumably, a thief still has to gain access to the inside of a vehicle before the ignition security (or lack thereof) is even an issue. Since we're talking a crime that still requires unlawful breaking and entering of a vehicle, this is ultimately a problem of cities not properly addressing their crime problems.
Re: It's not a prosecution it's a lawsuit (Score:2)
If someone caused damage with a stolen vehicle, put them in prison. Make new draconian laws as needed (e.g., minimum 5 years added to sentence for reckless endangerment in a stolen vehicle). If police are spending too much money investigating thefts, just stop investigating Kia thefts. There's really no reason this should be costing the city anything.
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A public nuisance consists of conduct or omissions which either:
1. Offend, interfere with, or cause damage to the public in the exercise or rights common to all in a manner such as to offend public morals;
2. Interfere with use by the public of a public place; or
3. Endanger or injure the property, health, safety or comfort of a considerable number of persons.
I don't think the first 2 apply, there's no damage to public spaces or interference with common rights. You can argue car manufacturers are responsible for #3; they've "endangered" the property, property being the cars, by not having an anti-theft device. But... that's a spurious claim. You could say the exact same thing of all makers of anything. "I lost my bike! It must be because there wasn't an integrating locking mec
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How liable is Kia really, if they're following the rules?
Look up public nuisance laws.
I did.
They don't apply to the Mayor of NYC.
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Re: Shouldn't this be regulated? (Score:2)
It doesn't need regulation. Let the insurance providers handle it. When it costs an extra $2500/year in insurance to buy a Kia, things will sort themselves out.
For more information (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah, it's my website, but I had a Kia stolen...
This covers what the issue is, why it's happening (what other manufacturers did that Kia/Hyundai didn't), and the societal impacts (crime, insurance, property loss/destruction).
I need to update the website, but they "repair" stolen vehicles with the same ignition system leaving them susceptible to the exact same attack.
And yes, I have a friend with a 1999 Ford Ranger with a factory immobilizer but my 2021 Kia Sedona didn't (and was stolen).
https://itsakeyissue.com/ [itsakeyissue.com]
Re:For more information (Score:5, Insightful)
The funny thing is that a lot of older immobilizers are ridiculously easy to bypass. For example, the Mark-III VW Golf / Jetta had a factory alarm that would kill the starter motor if it goes off, and often would kill the starter motor if your car battery died and leave it dead after battery recharge / replacement. The common fix most people apply to these vehicles is to delete the factory alarm because it's trash, and bypass the immobilizer circuit by jamming a 10A mini blade fuse into the wiring harness where the alarm board used to be [ccp.edu]. All in all, it takes only a couple minutes if you know what you're doing.
This isn't to say that Kia shouldn't include at least an attempt to knock this shit off because they absolutely should. However, if such an alarm / immobilizer is designed in a halfassed afterthought bolt-on minimally-viable way, it isn't going to do any good if your potential car thief has a smartphone in their pocket and a few easily carried tools.
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But, lawsuits are relative to expectations and opportunity, not anything rational.
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I've a classic car with an after-market immobilizer made perhaps 30 years ago. It's very secure - you can't get a transmitter for love nor money these days! OK, if you know where it is, and have a couple of 30-way connectors of the right sort already wired up you could bypass it, but you'd have to put up with the siren sounding while you did it...
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I hear you. All vehicles can be stolen (I use 2 steering wheel locks, very visible).
The issue here is that the vehicles can be stolen even if you don't "know what you are doing." and have no tools other than a screwdriver and a USB cable.
And it's their entire fleet of late model vehicles, until thyyey are all off the road. These will be the most stolen vehicles by a wide margin in the coming years.
Kia and Hyundai bowed to Canada when they required key immobilizers, but they left the US out of that because
Re: For more information (Score:2)
We managed for almost a century with cars that could be stolen with a screwdriver. I don't see how that's the manufacturer's responsibility. It's on the consumer to decide how much they're willing to spend on security. This is literally a constant trade-off consumers have to make with many of the products they buy.
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s/Kia's/Kias/ (plurals)
s/explicives/expletives/
s/Hyandai/Hyundai/
s/theives/thieves/
(where a crime - unterminated paren
A friend of mine bought a Ford Aspire, which was an early Kia rebadge, brand new. Its aspiration was to be a real car someday.
More like false advertising (Score:1)
Car-buyers have a legitimate beef since they may have bought their car with a mistaken understanding that it would be nearly impossible to drive without a legitimate key.
Cities don't: Even though cities were hurt by this, they weren't hurt any more than they would have been if Kia and Hyundai had sold the same cars but with old-school non-chipped keys, and those cars had been stolen in similar numbers.
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they weren't hurt any more than they would have been if Kia and Hyundai had sold the same cars but with old-school non-chipped keys, and those cars had been stolen in similar numbers.
That is exactly what they did though. It's the lack of chipped keys along with the exceptional ease with which the key cylinder can be bypassed that caused the issue in the first place.
As for how they can have a beef: The consider it a public nuiance and are going after them under that. It's not that the cars can be stolen, it's that their design makes it exceptionally easy to steal.
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They bought a cheap car, and part of what made it cheap was lacking features that might have made it harder to steal.
They could have chosen to spend extra for a car that was harder to steal, they didn't. They likely paid through increased insurance premiums instead.
Wrong end of the problem. (Score:2)
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Indeed! You can even coup on 5th ave. and get re-elected.
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Criminals aren't actually punished in our civilized society. Want to stop thefts? Make it hurt.
How about a car-theft-detection system that forces the car-thief to listen to politicians arguing about how to stop car theft - at 2x speed and at 150 dB.
"Make it stop, please!"
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Criminals aren't actually punished in our civilized society. Want to stop thefts? Make it hurt.
So who is filling the prisons in the US?
The US has more people incarcerated than any other country. Yes, by some counts, more than China, which has a much larger population. It also has the highest rate of incarceration.
https://worldpopulationreview.... [worldpopul...review.com]
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Community service (Score:2)
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And clearly, it is still not enough. The fact that there are criminals in prison is not an argument for not putting criminals in prison.
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So your "solution" to the problem is to do more of what we know doesn't work?
Re: Wrong end of the problem. (Score:2)
Blacks and Hispanics. We filled them up with minorities and now there's no room for criminals.
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Since there is a lot of crime going on in American cities, clearly there is a problem of *under* jailing.
Re: Wrong end of the problem. (Score:1)
More precisely, the wrong people are incarcerated.
Which ones? (Score:2)
Not really, most of the stuff from the Innocence Project or similar things are people who were identified by unreliable witness testimony for whom there is little physical evidence tying them to the crime, which is a rounding error.
In fact, people who do one crime tend to do lots of different crimes, so keeping those people away from society benefits their victims, whether they're merely directly funding murderous cartels or stealing or what have you.
Turns out that 327 people in NYC were responsible for a t [nytimes.com]
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Great Britain used to execute most all criminals, steal a loaf of bread, get hung. They still had too many criminals. Then, when the people got uptight about the endless hangings, they switched to deporting them, they still had the crime problem from too many criminals.
Turns out that desperate people commit crimes and no potential punishment stops them. We see the same thing in America, over 1% of the population at one point in prison and still the same problem with crime.
That's A Start (Score:2)
But demonstrating illegal activities is....illegal. TikTok needs to be included in this lawsuit as well.
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Further, Tiktok is benefiting financially (ad revenue) from these "Kia Challenge" videos. Which are effectively advertising and encouraging people to commit felon
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For a while all YouTube was showing me was how to pick locks, guess they should be sued too.
Re: That's A Start (Score:2)
You cannot promote illegal activity. But you absolutely can educate people on how to do things that may be illegal.
For example, it's not illegal to hotwire a car you own or have permission to hotwire. So it's not illegal to put videos up about how to hotwire a car.
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My guess would be having to extend the already bloated NYC police budget to cover these thefts.
Re: How was The City of New York, INC, harmed? (Score:2)
Who is demonstrating "success" in your imagination?
They should sue back (Score:4, Insightful)
This is obviously a ludicrous lawsuit by the city, but since such things seem to be possible in the US courts, I think Kia and Hyundai should sue New York city for negligence in dealing with crime.
I met a security researcher at a meeting (Score:2)
He was finding vulnerabilities in auto anti-theft systems.
At the point where the automakers blew him off, they were ethically responsible. Every sale after that was a knowing sale of a defective product.
He didn't have anyone fix things, in fact. I suggested he go to the insurance companies instead.
Re: I met a security researcher at a meeting (Score:2)
Ethically responsible? Maybe. Legally responsible? Unlikely.
Just because there's always a hack to break down a door doesn't make door manufacturers responsible for the security failures of their product.
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When have the police ever been tasked with preventing crimes from happening?
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Re: They should sue back (Score:2)
But if that was actually their task, they would be deployed to the streets en masse, instead of being dispatched from house to house to do victim journaling. They are not tasked with preventing crime unless it's something like a sporting event.
Re: They should sue back (Score:1)
This is a consumer issue (Score:2)
good thing (Score:2)
At least they're not going after a 66 Ford Mustang or '64 Falcon [youtube.com]
I think this is all dog-piling in an attempt to get money out of Hyndai. The fact that it was easy to do with a USB cord doesn't make them inherently bad at car design and even Teslas can be stolen. [electrek.co]
TikTok, used as a weapon. (Score:4, Insightful)
China's TikTok algorithm spread instructions on how to steal Korean cars in the United States. It cost the USA, it cost the car makers. This is the just the latest is a series of tiktok attacks.
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That's a very interesting observation. I hadn't framed it like that mentally before.
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More generally, all social media is rigged this way.
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It wasn't just TikTok, it was all over Twitter and Facebook too. There were YouTube videos as well.
Let's just get rid of vigilante laws. (Score:2)
Haha. Kia is responsible for crime (Score:2)
So, let's see. According to this theory, if I leave my bike unlocked, and it's stolen, I had it coming to me. Also, the bike company needs to be sued for allowing criminals to steal my bike.