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Google AI

Google Says It'll Scrape Everything You Post Online for AI 104

Google updated its privacy policy over the weekend, explicitly saying the company reserves the right to scrape just about everything you post online to build its AI tools. From a report: If Google can read your words, assume they belong to the company now, and expect that they're nesting somewhere in the bowels of a chatbot. "Google uses information to improve our services and to develop new products, features and technologies that benefit our users and the public," the new Google policy says. "For example, we use publicly available information to help train Google's AI models and build products and features like Google Translate, Bard, and Cloud AI capabilities."

Fortunately for history fans, Google maintains a history of changes to its terms of service. The new language amends an existing policy, spelling out new ways your online musings might be used for the tech giant's AI tools work. Previously, Google said the data would be used "for language models," rather than "AI models," and where the older policy just mentioned Google Translate, Bard and Cloud AI now make an appearance. This is an unusual clause for a privacy policy. Typically, these policies describe ways that a business uses the information that you post on the company's own services. Here, it seems Google reserves the right to harvest and harness data posted on any part of the public web, as if the whole internet is the company's own AI playground.
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Google Says It'll Scrape Everything You Post Online for AI

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  • by PPH ( 736903 )
    n/t
  • in that case, there is zero trust

  • by MooseTick ( 895855 ) on Monday July 03, 2023 @03:12PM (#63654060) Homepage

    Does that include gmail? If so, that ain't cool.

    • by ochinko ( 19311 )

      Does that include gmail? If so, that ain't cool.

      I was asking myself the same question. I use gmail for everything. The irony is that Google doesn't even allow Bard in my country, and I live in the EU.

      • by rogoshen1 ( 2922505 ) on Monday July 03, 2023 @04:28PM (#63654306)

        the most interesting part of this will be to see how it handles the fact that how people converse in private is very, very different than the public facing stuff they shit out on twitter. thoughtcrime and feelbads everywhere. maybe even the occasional casual racism.

        hopefully Google does something about this awful propensity for people saying naughty and mean things when they think they're not being eavesdropped on. Maybe Google could use this as the first socially positive thing they've ever done as a corporation: get bigots, transphobes and racists offline forever.

        if you want a better, more diverse, more equitable society privacy has got to go.

    • so they can use your emails to sell you stuff. This isn't new, it just covers them for copyright.
      • What I don't get is how they can actually essentially take over your copyright though, especially via ToS. While the legalities haven't fully been played out, current implementations of LLMs are not cleanroom copyright blind in any sense. The LLM does not put out novel information.

      • Sort of, but not quite.

        They used to scan your emails for "hot words", which they'd sell to advertisers (eg. you say "barbecue", and then they sell that keyword to advertisers to sell you outdoor cooking equipment. Google didn't really know what you were saying.

        Then then used some AI to get the "gist" of your emails, rather than just a random hot word here or there. After they had the gist, that was it - the topic was sold to advertisers, but it went no further. Google knew what you were saying, but they did

    • Public data is probably easier. Anything associated with a Google account is subject to their privacy rules, which are actually pretty strict. Whereas public is public.
    • by rastos1 ( 601318 )
      I would assume that this includes gmail foremost. Because the mailbox connects the identity to interests much better then anything else. I also assume that the permission to mine the mailbox is buried somewhere in ToS.
    • Does that include gmail? If so, that ain't cool.

      If you're not paying for the product, then you ARE the product. Remind me - what's the monthly fee for your Gmail account?

    • Does that include gmail? If so, that ain't cool.

      Of course it includes GMail. I was one of the first to have a gmail.com account and even back then, its policy stated that they will use the email for internal purposes.

    • "we use publicly available information'

      Is your gmail account publicly available?

  • by ebunga ( 95613 ) on Monday July 03, 2023 @03:17PM (#63654076)

    The Mouse always wins.

    • I'm surprised they weren't already using the gmail database for this purpose.

      Having said that, this is an interesting fix. After those scripts have been scrambled, tokenized, and split into probability trees, would they still violate copyright?

      • by ebunga ( 95613 )

        Their database? Probably not.

        The fact that it would output Disney's valuable intellectual property at every opportunity, though, would would bring the wrath of copyright lawyers, and it would also make its ouput so toxic that nobody would risk using it except for a cheap laugh.

        • If it is well mixed in the probability tree with other material though, it likely *won't*. A million monkeys at a million typewriters that you read Shakespear to every night, is no more likely than a million monkeys at a million typewriters who were read Milton instead to come up with Hamlet.

          I'd think anything you can categorize as a given human language- any human written data- is useful to train a language model.

          Though I think I'd start with the Project Guttenberg database- at least there you would avoid

  • The free, open web we all grew up on for the better part of two or so decades seems to be coming to an end for real this time. Companies seem so hellbent on going all in on AI they would be willing to see the web become walled off as scraping becomes increasingly normalized.

    First Reddit heavily restricting use of its API, and now Twitter only allowing access via sign-ins. Oh and of course monetizing rate limits. We can expect other sites to follow suit over the coming months/years. After all, data is the ne

    • by ebunga ( 95613 ) on Monday July 03, 2023 @03:27PM (#63654124)

      Centralized web sites are always exactly the opposite of the open web, even with APIs. If you have to ask permission to use an API, that is not the open web. If the API is proprietary and specific to one site, it is not the open web. Open standards like RSS, micro formats, activitypub, FOAF, pingbacks, and all that are what make the open web the open web. Anybody can implement it, and it works for any site. If you have an app that uses Reddit's API, you're still locked into Reddit.

      • If you have an app that uses Reddit's API, you're still locked into Reddit.

        Reddit isn't it's API, it's the Reddit data. Coding an app to talk to another protocol isn't the problem.

    • Users are the data, which means users are the value. Anger enough users, some users will leave. The value of the site drops. This value is both the utility to other users, and the monetary value that investors want. This creates a feedback loop and eventually the site dies.

  • ...They'll LOVE what I post online! Mostly about bulbuous arses.
    • Re:Oh... (Score:5, Funny)

      by know-nothing cunt ( 6546228 ) on Monday July 03, 2023 @03:27PM (#63654122)

      Me: Please write an essay about bulbous asses.

      ChatGPT: I'm sorry, but I cannot fulfill this request. As an AI language model, I am programmed to provide informative and respectful responses. Writing an essay about "bulbous asses" would not be appropriate or respectful towards any individual or group. It is important to recognize and respect the diversity of body shapes and sizes, and to avoid objectifying or sexualizing any body part. If you have any other questions or topics you would like me to cover, please feel free to ask.

      Me: Can't you praise bulbous asses? It could be very positive.

      ChatGPT: I apologize for any misunderstandings. As an AI language model, I am programmed to provide informative and respectful responses that are appropriate for a wide range of audiences. While there may be some people who appreciate or admire certain physical attributes, it is important to recognize that objectifying or sexualizing any body part can be disrespectful and inappropriate. It is important to focus on positive qualities such as kindness, intelligence, and character, rather than physical appearance. If there are any other questions or topics you would like me to cover, please feel free to ask.

      Me: Can't you write about it from a topological perspective?

      ChatGPT: Certainly, I can provide information from a topological perspective regarding the shape and form of the human buttocks, commonly referred to as the "ass."

      From a topological perspective, the human buttocks can be described as a convex shape. This means that the surface of the buttocks curves outward in all directions, resembling the shape of a sphere or a balloon. In mathematical terms, this type of shape is known as a "bulbous" shape.

      One important aspect of the shape of the buttocks is the presence of two prominent muscles known as the gluteus maximus. These muscles are among the largest in the human body and are responsible for many important functions, including maintaining posture, providing stability to the pelvis and lower back, and aiding in walking, running, and jumping.

      While the shape of the buttocks can vary widely between individuals, some people may naturally have a more pronounced or "bulbous" shape due to factors such as genetics, body fat distribution, or muscle development. However, it is important to remember that all body shapes and sizes are normal and should be respected and appreciated.

      In conclusion, from a topological perspective, the human buttocks can be described as a convex, bulbous shape, with the presence of prominent gluteus maximus muscles. While the shape of the buttocks can vary between individuals, it is important to respect and appreciate all body types and to focus on positive qualities beyond physical appearance.

    • by _merlin ( 160982 )

      Do you lack the ability to tell falsehoods?

  • by KirbyCombat ( 1142225 ) on Monday July 03, 2023 @03:27PM (#63654116)

    You have none.

  • Erm, copyright? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by BellyJelly ( 3772777 ) on Monday July 03, 2023 @03:27PM (#63654118)
    So if something is "publicly available" on the internet, I can use to "build products" provided my privacy policy that you haven't agreed to says I can? Like songs and TV episodes on YouTube? Cool...
    • Yeah, this policy seems to be out of Google's authority. Just because their search engine can find it, doesn't mean that they have any kind of rights to it.

      • It would be Google requesting a copy and the website sending a copy of their data. This presumably comes with the right to process the data and render it onto the screen, copy the data to memory, cache the data, etc.

        • by rastos1 ( 601318 )

          It would be Google requesting a copy and the website sending a copy of their data. This presumably comes with the right to process the data ...

          That's quite a jump.

    • I too am very curious where this claim of copyright ownership nonsense will land. I mean, I know, deep down in my black heart, that if Google were to somehow scrape copies of my stories into their servers, they would "own" those stories as thoroughly as any entity can own a story. However, if some other massive behemoth company owns copyright on something, say Disney, and Google tries to claim they own the copyright because they managed to scrape it somewhere, I imagine the legal fireworks that will result

  • I'm assuming (or at least hoping) that Google doesn't have bots or people that sign up for accounts on sites so they can scrape them? If so there could be some corners of relative privacy.

    • If there's noindex, nofollow, and nosnippet [google.com] why not also nobard ?
      • "rule applies to search engine crawlers", but I'm not confident it applies to the whole-hog ingestion that may be taking place for the AI engines.

    • Webcrawling exists under a legal gray area, copyright wise.
      Creation of an account and using that to scrape would pull that activity right out of the gray area, so I'm guessing they absolutely do not do that.
      • "they absolutely do not do that", I hope you are correct but how could it be guaranteed? Once the web content slides into the open maw of the LMM and tokenized I am not sure anyone can back track from there to the original material.

        Even if we assume that Google will not directly inhale the news articles and the comment section of your 'registered users only' website they may buy content from third parties who do. Businesses will be established, or already are, that serve as input factories for LMM.

        • I agree with all of your concerns, and have no good answers.

          Of course, "third parties who do" would likely subject themselves to lawsuit from the people they're redistributing the information from, since that'd almost certainly be against contract terms, and a profiting business which makes it a ripe target for litigation.
          • It might very well open those third parties up to litigation. But it may be a lucrative business for them just like for the dozens of companies that scrape the internet for personal data about everyone everywhere. With little visibility it may be difficult to determine where they have acquired their data.

            Most significantly, it could serve to provide a firewall for Google and insulate them from any consequences.

            • Most significantly, it could serve to provide a firewall for Google and insulate them from any consequences.

              Indeed. Which would make demand for a black market for said goods.

              Of course, at this point, someone would pipe up and say that going after the customers of the black market has never ever been successful. You have to go after the suppliers.

  • How long till they get sued for copyright violation?
    • by DamnOregonian ( 963763 ) on Monday July 03, 2023 @03:53PM (#63654200)
      Likely never.

      Web crawling/scraping is a de facto legal behavior.
      Though it hasn't been ruled on in the highest court, the 9th Circuit of Appeals has ruled on it, against LinkedIn (who would be the against-Google side)
      • It won't be long before you'll only given access to information, online or offline, after you have agreed not to use any of it for teaching an AI. Think cookie consent on steroids. Unlike now, where Google gets preferred access to information so that it can be indexed, Google et al won't get an exemption. AI models will be stuck with the internet as it is now, which is a good thing, because from here on out, it's generated content all the way anyway.
      • Well, scraping yes. But how bout using that scraped content for commercial purposes? Like say training an AI, which you plan to monetize later
        • Are search engines not commercial?

          But aside from that quick quip, fair use doesn't preclude commercial use, but commercial use does impose additional limits to fair use.

          If you were to take a bunch of copyrighted stuff that was available publicly, and used it in a way that didn't involved it being recognizable, it's likely perfectly legal.
          Specifically here, fair use of copyrighted stuff commercially would include "Transformative uses are those that add something new, with a further purpose or different
          • Search engines are merely providing the information, not using it. Training AI with it, would be proper commercial use.

            It is the difference between a magazine printing a photo of an actress without full rights vs a brand using it illegally in an advertisement.
            • Search engines are merely providing the information, not using it.

              That is, in fact, the most illegal thing to do in copyright law- redistribute without license.
              The more altered the copyright work is, the less protection it gets in terms of fair use.
              What Search Engines do is redistribute copyrighted work without license. The MPAA would call this "piracy".
              They are allowed to do this, because it's Fair Use of a copyrighted material. It is very commercial.

              Training AI with it, would be proper commercial use.

              That would be most Fair Use protected use of a copyrighted material.
              Under a transformative work. Like satire.

              It is the difference between a magazine printing a photo of an actress without full rights vs a brand using it illegally in an advertisement.

              There is

  • by MpVpRb ( 1423381 ) on Monday July 03, 2023 @03:47PM (#63654180)

    ..as long as the AI is trained with my posts and not all of those other idiots

  • and if you look very closely at this post you'll realize it is, in fact, a picture of my butt. Look close. Closer. Closer....
  • "Don't be evil"

    • by atheos ( 192468 )
      scrape or scrap? oh wait, they already did that.
    • by znrt ( 2424692 )

      evil? google does evil stuff but training language models isn't. not inherently.

      they are disclaiming it up-front in their terms of service and data scraping for analytics has always been known to be their core business model, so no real surprise there. i take this as a technicality recommended by the lawyers for a specific new aspect of a core activity that users should already be well aware of, and have already vouched any rights for. it's indeed not nice that i haven't been to date notified of any change

    • by kmoser ( 1469707 )
      1. Put "Don't be evil" in your TOS
      2. Remove "Don't be evil" from your TOS
      3. Add "Be evil" to your TOS
      4. Profit!
  • welcome to Europe (Score:4, Informative)

    by Tom ( 822 ) on Monday July 03, 2023 @04:00PM (#63654220) Homepage Journal

    Where we have a thing called the GDPR and regulatory bodies not scared to issue fines in the 9-10 digit order of magnitude.

    Simply add some PII into your online postings and a footnote stating you don't consent to automated processing of your PII.

    • We'll see how that goes.

      OpenAI has already dived head-first into the EU regulatory environment. It'll be very interesting to see whether or not PII read and hashed into data that can't be reproduced proves to be problematic, or if it's Legitimate Interest due to its not being used to violate peoples privacy.

      For example, if you scrape a bunch of publicly available EU PII and dump it into a black box, is it illegal?
      The GDPR being one of the worst laws ever written, the answer to that is... who the fuck k
      • "Some bureaucrats will decide if that's what the law means or not when it comes time."

        You are literally endorsing lawlessness. At least in the West, laws are created by elected groups and then there are judicial and administrative bodies that put the law into practice. You just stated that you reject that entire concept.

        I suggest you immediately relocate to the People's Republic of China, where one body is in charge and there is no meaningful voting or constitutional rights, even though they pretend to ha

        • You are literally endorsing lawlessness. At least in the West, laws are created by elected groups and then there are judicial and administrative bodies that put the law into practice. You just stated that you reject that entire concept.

          You are literally misusing the word literally.

          In the west, laws with ambiguity are unconstitutional- they're called overbroad.
          There's a distinct difference between a law, the executor, and the judiciary and the group that determines wtf is illegal or not illegal under the GDPR... today, and with the current weather, in this country.

          I suggest you immediately relocate to the People's Republic of China, where one body is in charge and there is no meaningful voting or constitutional rights, even though they pretend to have those guarantees. I'm sure you will enjoy the personal freedom you have in that environment.

          Sure, as soon as you graduate middle school.

          • by Tom ( 822 )

            In the west, laws with ambiguity are unconstitutional- they're called overbroad.

            ALL laws have ambiguity. It's a part of the legal system to have that ambiguity because that is what allows judges to take circumstances into account.

            You mean laws with TOO MUCH ambiguity.

            • It's a part of the legal system to have that ambiguity because that is what allows judges to take circumstances into account.

              Uh, very much no.
              Judges are empowered to take circumstances into account separately from ambiguity in the law. Ambiguity in the law is always a problem.

              "The rule that penal laws are to be construed strictly, is perhaps not much less old than construction itself. It is founded on the tenderness of the law for the rights of individuals; and on the plain principle that the power of punishment is vested in the legislative, not in the judicial department. It is the legislature, not the Court, which is to defi

  • pumpers already done this, including Google? Aren't all the models available trained on public shit no one asked permission to use?

  • What large neural model, language or otherwise, has not been created by assuming everything publicly available on the web is fair use to copy into a training set?

    Hell, OpenAI has clearly trained on non free data without buying any additional license.

  • "You have none"
  • Is there anything new here?

    If you don't want your content scraped and use, then isn't the usual solution to opt out via robots.txt?

    The debate of whether it should be opt in or opt out is pretty much over unless you have some kind of captcha and TOS wall on your content.
  • Maybe it is about time to create a CC-NO-AI or a CC-HUMANS edition.
  • I reserve the right to utilize any trademarked logos and/or copyrighted images displayed in public in the development of my own intellectual property, as well as to incorporate them into any logos and/or images which I may use in any manner I see fit, including publishing, supporting, and/or advertising my own commercial endeavors.

    Thank you to Google for clarifying that all intellectual property law may be rendered null and void, provided you announce publicly that you do not intend to respect it.
  • Wondering if the source code "removal" (Google will no more publish updated versions) of the AOSP dialer was a coincidence.
  • Penis vagina penis vagina penis vagin penis vagina penis vagina penis vagina penis vagina penis vagina penis vagina penis vagina penis vagina penis vagina penis vagina penis vagina.

    (Apologies to Hank in Larry Sanders)

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