Automakers Say They Resolved the Right-To-Repair Fight (wired.com) 28
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Wired: Who owns thedata generated by your car? And who controls access to it? For almost a decade, right-to-repair activists, automakers, parts manufacturers, auto repair shop owners, technicians, and regular people who own cars have fought over those questions. How they are answered could radically change the cost and convenience of owning a modern camera-studded and cloud-enabled car -- and, some say, the future of the increasingly tech-heavy auto industry. Last week, a few trade groups announced they had finally figured it all out. In a letter (PDF) to the US Congress, three industry organizations that together represent the major automakers and thousands of repair shops said they had signed a "memorandum of understanding" on the right to repair. In the agreement, the automakers commit to giving independent car repair shops access to the data, tools, and information necessary to diagnose and repair vehicles -- the data, tools, and information provided to the automakers' own dealership networks. "Competition is alive and well in the auto repair industry," the letter said.
Right-to-repair advocates -- who contend that consumers should be able to fix the products they buy -- aren't so sure. They say the agreement doesn't give car owners full and unfettered control of the streams of data generated by the latest cars' cameras and other sensors, which log data on location, speed, acceleration, and how a vehicle's hardware and software are performing. The advocates worry the new agreement gives automakers and automaker-associated repairers room to squeeze out smaller, independent shops and at-home tinkerers in the future, making it more difficult for car owners to find places to quickly and affordably fix their cars. And they say there are no enforcement mechanisms to guarantee automakers follow through on their promises. Notably, the new agreement didn't include the Auto Care Association, the largest US trade group for independent repair shops and aftermarket parts suppliers. The group's chair, Corey Bartlett, says the agreement doesn't address some of the major barriers facing consumers looking to get a tech-heavy car repaired.
Smaller and especially rural repair shops sometimes can't fix the newest models, because they can't pay for the expensive tools, subscriptions, and training needed, which can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. As cars get more complex, and move more services into apps and onto the internet, they fear access will shrink. [...] Many repair shops, especially those who opt in and pay to be part of those certified networks, say they have no trouble finding the information they need to fix cars, even before this week's agreement. [...] Other repairers worry that without an industry-wide overhaul that forces automakers to standardize and open up their data, car companies will find ways to limit access to repair information, or push customers towards their own dealership networks to boost profits. They say that if auto owners had clear and direct ownership over the data generated by their vehicles -- without the involvement of automakers' specialized tools or systems -- they could use it themselves to diagnose and repair a car, or authorize the repair shop of their choice to do the work. "My fear, if no one gives some stronger guidelines, is that I know automakers are going to monetize car data in a way that's unaffordable for us to gain access," says Dwayne Myers, co-owner of Dynamic Automotive, an auto repair business with several locations in Maryland.
Right-to-repair advocates -- who contend that consumers should be able to fix the products they buy -- aren't so sure. They say the agreement doesn't give car owners full and unfettered control of the streams of data generated by the latest cars' cameras and other sensors, which log data on location, speed, acceleration, and how a vehicle's hardware and software are performing. The advocates worry the new agreement gives automakers and automaker-associated repairers room to squeeze out smaller, independent shops and at-home tinkerers in the future, making it more difficult for car owners to find places to quickly and affordably fix their cars. And they say there are no enforcement mechanisms to guarantee automakers follow through on their promises. Notably, the new agreement didn't include the Auto Care Association, the largest US trade group for independent repair shops and aftermarket parts suppliers. The group's chair, Corey Bartlett, says the agreement doesn't address some of the major barriers facing consumers looking to get a tech-heavy car repaired.
Smaller and especially rural repair shops sometimes can't fix the newest models, because they can't pay for the expensive tools, subscriptions, and training needed, which can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. As cars get more complex, and move more services into apps and onto the internet, they fear access will shrink. [...] Many repair shops, especially those who opt in and pay to be part of those certified networks, say they have no trouble finding the information they need to fix cars, even before this week's agreement. [...] Other repairers worry that without an industry-wide overhaul that forces automakers to standardize and open up their data, car companies will find ways to limit access to repair information, or push customers towards their own dealership networks to boost profits. They say that if auto owners had clear and direct ownership over the data generated by their vehicles -- without the involvement of automakers' specialized tools or systems -- they could use it themselves to diagnose and repair a car, or authorize the repair shop of their choice to do the work. "My fear, if no one gives some stronger guidelines, is that I know automakers are going to monetize car data in a way that's unaffordable for us to gain access," says Dwayne Myers, co-owner of Dynamic Automotive, an auto repair business with several locations in Maryland.
Frist Psot. (Score:1)
who owns my cars data? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: who owns my cars data? (Score:1)
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...but on pg. 57 of the EULA, you explicitly waived any and all rights to access, review, modify, collect, or delete any or all data generated, and furthermore agreed to transfer title of "The Data" to "The Manufacturer".
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I do , nobody else. I bought it not rented it,
What the other AC said was stupid. I could see a future where you buy a car but the software that makes it work is only licensed to you. It'll be interesting to see if car manufacturers resort to underhanded IP law to get their way.
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Fine but then I should be able to load my own software. All the keys should be provided including the digital ones..
This story is far more than a decade old (Score:5, Informative)
This is a much older fight than "almost a decade".
I used to work around the auto industry, and I remember a coworker asking a big three auto executive about publishing their CAN bus codes, and opening up the code to the infotainment system, so that car enthusiasts could customize their ride in ways the manufacturer didn't anticipate.
The response was pretty clear: Why would anyone ever want to do that?
They don't care about the few percent that want to understand things for themselves and build new experimental stuff. They just want to keep selling to the 90+% that mindlessly consume the product like cattle. Imnsho, it's a myopic mentality to have, and it definitely encouraged me to avoid ever working directly within the automotive industry.
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They got burned early on with people modifying the software in their cars, breaking them, and then trying to make warranty claims.
People do it with CPUs and GPUs too. Modify the BIOS to provide higher voltage, attempting to get a higher overclock. Fry something and return it as a warranty failure. The manufacturers started putting in flags that got set when an un-approved BIOS was loaded.
There are also safety issues. Many cars now have a screen instead of a traditional instrument cluster, and there are all
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If they just design the system to track when the user sets "unapproved" settings then everyone gets what they want. But instead they do their best to prevent you. Ford was about the only one to really assist you in tuning your own PCM, and they recently announced they weren't going to do that any more...
Black box also records cellphone data. (Score:5, Informative)
[R2R advocates] say the agreement doesn't give car owners full and unfettered control of the streams of data generated by the latest cars' cameras and other sensors, which log data on location, speed, acceleration, and how a vehicle's hardware and software are performing.
I hear from someone who has done auto computer programming more recently than I have:
When you have a cellphone bluetooth-paired with the car (e.g. for hands-free speakerphone, auto-crash-emergency-reporting, etc.) the onboard "black box" logging includes the side-channel info from the phone: Called/ing numbers and call times and durations, text messages, contact lists, ... This gets stored (some of it whenever your phone just connects), is available to forensic analysis, and not erasable by the user (or even the dealer).
Giant SSDs are cheap now, so they can log a LOT of stuff over a long history of an auto's use.
Quite frankly... (Score:5, Insightful)
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As someone who has an interest in this stuff, it's a good step in the right direction, but it's not enough. This stuff needs to be available to anyone. There's no reason they have to use obscure interfaces or weird protocols, or hide everything behind encryption. Only the immobilizer needs to be locked down. The immo can be its own distinct unit, just put it someplace it's a PITA to get to. Often it's easy to access the parts that the immobilizer is in and people just bring their own. It's sadly easy on a S
Re:Quite frankly... (Score:4, Informative)
as far as a "memorandum of understanding" goes, please refer to John Deere's track record [techdirt.com] on the subject, and how that ended up. [techdirt.com]
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I agree. I suspect they intend to delay things as long as they can just like John Deer has done. They stand to make a lot of money doing this.
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Immobilizer? WTF is that? I've never heard of a part required to power a car named "immobilizer".
Can you explain a bit on what this is?
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Can you explain a bit on what this is?
It's the part of the vehicle that "prevents" unauthorized starting. Sometimes it's [in] one module, sometimes it's spread out across multiple modules.
It auto makers endorse it (Score:5, Insightful)
Then you can be sure it doesn't do jack shit for right to repair.
Perfect example of why right to repair is needed (Score:3)
I recently saw a YouTube video showing someone fixing a Porsche who needed some front end bits for the car. Porsche USA refused to sell him the bits (claiming they only sold to "authorised repairers" or something) and the guy had to travel to the UK to get the bits he needed.
IIRC the dealer actually wanted to help but wasn't allowed to because Porsche USA wouldn't let them sell those parts.
A proper right to repair law would mean Porsche (and others) would be forced to sell people like this the parts they want or need for their cars.
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The engine compartment on a Boxter isn't "sealed". It's just a bit of a pain to get at because you have to move the roof out of the way. It's a little confusing at first, but if you've done it before, it takes about three minutes.
Takes about 3 minutes once you've done it... About 90 mins of scraped knuckles, sweating, straining and shouting "where's the f**king 10mm", "what, now I need a damn 8mm socket" and "who the f**k thought it was a good idea to hide a bolt there" the first time.
BTW, hasn't the Boxter's engine compartment always been a bit difficult to get to due to the fact it's a mid-engine RWD convertible?
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My very first car was a '75 Chevy Monza V8 (parental units bought it as a college grad gift).
This was the car that to change the 8th sparkplug you had to either
* remove the engine
* drill a hole in the firewall
If so then pass right to repair laws. (Score:4, Insightful)
I mean, if you've resolved the issue then there's no problem with passing right to repair into federal law, right?
If the automakers...... (Score:1)