No Apologies As Reddit Halfheartedly Tries To Repair Ties With Moderators (arstechnica.com) 72
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: Reddit is publicly extending an olive branch to the moderator community that it largely enraged over recent weeks. In a post on Wednesday, a Reddit employee detailed outreach efforts from the company, including new weekly feedback sessions, that it hopes can help repair ties with the social media platform and over 50,000 volunteer mods that it relies on. But as you might expect, mods remain skeptical. A Reddit admin going by Go_JasonWaterfalls on the site and claiming the title of Reddit VP of community acknowledged the shattered relationship between mods -- who spend thousands of hours providing free labor and have recently engaged in variously disruptive forms of protest over API pricing on the site -- and Reddit -- which has responded to said protests by ousting some protesting moderators from their posts.
"So, we've all had a... time on Reddit lately," Go_JasonWaterfalls wrote. "And I'm here to recognize it, acknowledge that our relationship has been tested, and begin the 'now what?' conversation." Noting that Reddit's "role is facilitation" and to give mods a platform they "can rely on," including necessary tools and resources, Go_JasonWaterfalls emphasized the need for "consistent, inclusive, and direct connection" with mods before detailing outreach efforts, like Weekly Mod Feedback Sessions. The sessions will take place every Tuesday and Thursday through October and "continue into the future as valuable," the Reddit admin said. Redditors have to fill out a form of interest to participate. Reddit can easily turn away those with inactive accounts or who it views as currently being in violation of Reddit's mod or content policies. Go_JasonWaterfalls said Reddit will share notes from feedback sessions in the r/modnews subreddit. Go_JasonWaterfalls also underscored Reddit's Mod Council and Partner Communities programs, the next monthly meeting for the Accessibility Feedback Group, and upcoming in-person events in the US, Brazil, Canada, England, France, and India.
Mods, meanwhile, traumatized by a tumultuous past couple of months, have very low expectations of Reddit's efforts. Ars spoke with some who have already participated in similar efforts, like feedback sessions or the Mod Council, and claimed mixed results in regard to Reddit making actual moves in response to mod critiques and suggestions. "The Reddit Mod Council in particular has been one where they will yo-yo on whether or not they listen to moderators. Sometimes they do, most times they don't," Alyssa Videlock, a mod for numerous subreddits, including large ones like r/tumblr and r/lgbt, told Ars. Reddit is refusing to give way on virtually any of the mods' demands, which has included things like more accessible API pricing or more time to adjust to the new pricing for apps they value and broader exemption for apps used by users (including mods) with accessibility needs. Reddit's removal of troubling mods has also helped to obliterate Reddit community trust.
"So, we've all had a... time on Reddit lately," Go_JasonWaterfalls wrote. "And I'm here to recognize it, acknowledge that our relationship has been tested, and begin the 'now what?' conversation." Noting that Reddit's "role is facilitation" and to give mods a platform they "can rely on," including necessary tools and resources, Go_JasonWaterfalls emphasized the need for "consistent, inclusive, and direct connection" with mods before detailing outreach efforts, like Weekly Mod Feedback Sessions. The sessions will take place every Tuesday and Thursday through October and "continue into the future as valuable," the Reddit admin said. Redditors have to fill out a form of interest to participate. Reddit can easily turn away those with inactive accounts or who it views as currently being in violation of Reddit's mod or content policies. Go_JasonWaterfalls said Reddit will share notes from feedback sessions in the r/modnews subreddit. Go_JasonWaterfalls also underscored Reddit's Mod Council and Partner Communities programs, the next monthly meeting for the Accessibility Feedback Group, and upcoming in-person events in the US, Brazil, Canada, England, France, and India.
Mods, meanwhile, traumatized by a tumultuous past couple of months, have very low expectations of Reddit's efforts. Ars spoke with some who have already participated in similar efforts, like feedback sessions or the Mod Council, and claimed mixed results in regard to Reddit making actual moves in response to mod critiques and suggestions. "The Reddit Mod Council in particular has been one where they will yo-yo on whether or not they listen to moderators. Sometimes they do, most times they don't," Alyssa Videlock, a mod for numerous subreddits, including large ones like r/tumblr and r/lgbt, told Ars. Reddit is refusing to give way on virtually any of the mods' demands, which has included things like more accessible API pricing or more time to adjust to the new pricing for apps they value and broader exemption for apps used by users (including mods) with accessibility needs. Reddit's removal of troubling mods has also helped to obliterate Reddit community trust.
Naive questions (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Naive questions (Score:5, Informative)
It is my understanding that they make extensive use of apps that use the API to moderate.
And like with the Hasbro / Wotc debacle earlier this summer, the license change wasn't intended to bring prices in line with costs. It wasn't even overpriced due to greed. The prices were so ridiculously clear that it was obvious they were trying to kill apps without coming out and saying it, the way Hasbro was trying to kill 3rd party D&D companies.
It's like saying, "Oh- we are not banning cars! We are just adding a $250 per gallon surcharge to the cost of gasoline".
Re: Naive questions (Score:5, Informative)
Many mods relied on third party apps or tools that used the API in order to moderate.
And many more just likes the third party apps that they found far superior to the official app.
Re:Naive questions (Score:5, Informative)
This is where the API and 3rd party apps come in; the mods of reddit used the 3rd party apps to help moderate their subbreddits because the 3rd party apps were orders of magnitude superior to what reddit itself provided.
However those are all gone now, like tears in the rain, with Reddit's greed in the pricing for API calls from the 3rd party apps.
Based upon the pricing rates Reddit wanted for access to their API's, I can only conclude they were intentionally trying to destroy all 3rd party apps as that is the only logical conclusion for the exorbient pricing rates.
Which brings me back to Reddit's business model. They desperately need the favor and help from the mod community. But not only did they kill off all 3rd party apps and tools the mods needed to successfully moderate the reddits, they also spat in the face of the mods themselves by performing complete take overs of the subreddits that were protesting the API pricing changes.
Re:Naive questions (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Naive questions (Score:4, Insightful)
The official Reddit app was actually pretty good when they purchased it (it was originally a third party app). Then they changed it to be exactly what they want it to be.
It's not a matter of man power, it's exactly what they want it to be.
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IOW, it's not a matter of man power, it's a matter of power, man.
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It was my understanding that (some, all) 3rd party apps bypassed their advertising. So, mods are one thing. But if there's an API hook that the average user can use to skip ads, I can understand Reddit's concern.
Re:Naive questions (Score:4, Informative)
Re: Naive questions (Score:2)
Re: Naive questions (Score:3)
If reddit is loosing money because 3rd party apps aren't showing the ads, why not do what many are calling for and charge users for API access (at a price that makes up for the lost ads).
The problem with that I suspect is that too many people would do that and then the number of ad views drops to the point where advertisers don't want to run ads anymore.
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If reddit is loosing money because 3rd party apps aren't showing the ads, why not do what many are calling for and charge users for API access (at a price that makes up for the lost ads).
That's what the Reddit API fees did, but all of the people using the apps as effective ad-blockers and the app makers got super mad and flipped the table.
But luckily one company, Narwhal, saw the reason in needing to pay for an API and so they will, and that app will carry on...
If Reddit can't build out the mod tools mods w
Re: Naive questions (Score:3)
Instead of making the apps pay (and pay big) the argument many are making is that the users should be the ones paying (either through the existing subscription or a new higher price one if need be). Basically the same thing YouTube does with "pay for premium to not get ads".
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But luckily one company, Narwhal, saw the reason in needing to pay for an API and so they will, and that app will carry on...
As far as I understand Narwhal has basically for sure a special deal with Reddit though.
The dev explicitly refused to confirm or deny the existence of a special deal: why do that instead of simply denying it unless the deal exists and comes with an NDA?
Furthermore, they are able to continue operating like before although they still have not implemented the subscription model which will fund the API costs. The API costs are already in place though, so who is paying those costs in the meantime?
Due to the sign
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Yes it's called the "not being a massive dick about it discount" which I am pretty sure the developer of Apollo could have enjoyed, but no fee was acceptable to him so he flipped the table and ran out crying near as I could tell.
As an app developer myself, even without a special deal I saw several ways he could have made Apollo work going forward but he never even tried, just screamed and left.
Apollo's dev clearly stated they have no issue with the API having a cost, they have an issue with the price point and the very short deadline given to implement the changes in pricing.
Narwhal is being used as argument that the changes imposed by Reddit are not unreasonable, but this argument goes out of the window if they are actually not subject to those changes and are subject to a private ad-hoc deal instead.
Re:Naive questions (Score:4, Insightful)
From what I've seen, the major causative factor seems to be trying to gouge the heck out of AI projects which, given the current buzz, might tend to have a lot of disposable capital on hand they're willing to throw at huge datasets in order to jump start themselves. Many of them have already hoovered up tons of reddit through the api, and with the ipo intentions, leaving even potential money on the table is a no-no.
The 3rd party apps were just non-regrettable collateral damage.
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Come on, you are deep in tinfoil hat territory here.
The simpler truth is they were not jerks and were willing to pay.
The dev explicitly declined to answer whether they have a special deal with Reddit in regards of the API costs. If there was no deal, there would be no issue for them to simply state such. The only rational reason for them to decline answering is that a deal exists and includes a NDA.
Furthermore, while the API cost are already effective, Narwhal still has not implemented the subscription model that will cover those costs. During the transition period until the subscription model will go live, somebody has t
Re:Naive questions (Score:4, Informative)
It's because Reddit has a shitty UI.
All the mods basically use third party clients - so when Apollo and others decided it would be cheaper to close up shop than to pay the API fees, it meant those mods couldn't use the third party client. And the third party clients supposedly offered a much superior UI to help moderate the communities that without the API access, it's a PITA to use.
Thus the mods really do care about API pricing because it affects them and the tools they need to do their job. They hope Reddit would fix the pricing policy so the clients can return.
If not, why bother? Reddit basically took away the tools they needed to do their voluntary jobs, and they're not going to rely on inferior tools and UIs to do what is already a hard job.
Not going to lie... Rep makes my skin crawl (Score:5, Insightful)
I've dealt with people who talk like that before. It's frequently just before or just after you get it up the caboose with no lube.
It frequently occurred after the company screwed you over badly... and then they went ahead and screwed you over badly again afterwards. Hiring a person who talks like this indicates management doesn't believe they did anything wrong and that you are overreacting... worse- you are stupid and they can fool you.
But maybe that's just my experience. I'm in my 60s.
Re:Not going to lie... Rep makes my skin crawl (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not quite 60 yet, but I would agree with your assessment.
Talk is cheap, actions matter. What are they actually doing? Barrelling on ahead as before? OK then.
Re:Not going to lie... Rep makes my skin crawl (Score:5, Funny)
"Just because we are listening doesn't mean we care."
- Management
Re:Not going to lie... Rep makes my skin crawl (Score:4, Funny)
"We actually care quite a bit... just not about you or your concerns."
- Management, clarifying
We want our everyone to stay ;) (Score:2)
With Regard to the Olive Branch. (Score:1)
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Volunteering for a for-profit company. Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Subject says it all. There's man worthy causes that need volunteer support for people who are willing to provide their labor without being compensated - at non-profits, charities etc. Why on earth would anyone provide their labor for free to people who are profiting off of it?
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I dislike when people gatekeep like this. Go volunteer for a more "worthy" cause with your own time, and don't complain about what other people do for fun. It's their own time, and people like spending that time on their hobbies, or topics that interest them.
Re:Volunteering for a for-profit company. Why? (Score:4, Interesting)
There are (were... I get to that in a bit) in general 2 motivations for mods. First, they were genuinely in love with the subject of the subreddit and want the topic to be spread far and wide, and everyone should hear about it. You'll find that kind of mod in game subs and hobby subs, where mods are either paid by the company making the game (ok, they're less in for the love of the topic and more for the love of money, but ... you get the idea) or because they have been playing the game for a long time and really, really, really want people to find and love the game as much as they do.
Second, the power trippers. People who enjoy having that feeling that they get to decide who may and who may not play in the club. This is the type of mod you'd rather have in subs that have a large following, where the mod wants to control the narrative and decide what opinions are "valid" by simply kicking out people they can't browbeat in direct debate because they simply have the better arguments.
With the replacement of mods, a new kind emerges. The spammers, scammers and astroturfers, who don't give a fuck about either of these 2 reasons but just want to take over moderating a large sub so they can peddle their crap.
And especially that last group will be a real problem for Reddit.
/r/place is a bad indicator for them (Score:2)
Look at how they treated the r/Canning mods. (Score:5, Informative)
Up until today, I was the top mod of r/Canning. Prior to the blackout, our users voted https://www.reddit.com/r/Canni... [slashdot.org]”>a whopping 88% in favour of shutting down the sub, with the majority of those voicing that it should be a long-term shutdown.
And so we followed the democratic choice of our members and closed down with everyone else. Not long after, https://www.reddit.com/r/ModCo... [slashdot.org]”>threatened that if we didn’t revert back to public, we’d be replaced. We continued to push back against their bullying, pointing out that the subreddit had not been abandoned (as we continued to respond to mod mail from users on a daily basis), and that we were doing was in line with our users wishes, and that if they wanted us to re-open, they had to restart negotiations with 3rd party app developers, give them reasonable API pricing, and give them a minimum of 6 months to adopt the new rules (they were given 30 days).
The late last week, Reddit threatened us again. https://www.reddit.com/r/ModCo... [slashdot.org]”>We were given 3 days to come up with a plan to re-open, and once again told them if they wanted us to reopen, they had to meet our demands, and that we wouldn’t cave to their bullying.
The r/Canning mods were all “canned” by Reddit today. The subreddit has been moved into Restricted mode (people can read, but nobody can post), and it has no moderators.
Great job with that mod outreach effort there, Reddit. We were whipped with the olive branch. They’re nothing but a bunch of hypocrites — fall in line and do free work for them on their terms, or you’re out on your ass.
Yaz
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Yeah, /. Seems to have mangled things there. [::shrug::]
Yaz
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So, I guess this helps with google search traffic, but certainly not engagement.
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Are you suggesting that the smart ones are the ones firing all of the free labor that generates their product?
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Prior to this shit-show there is a symbiotic relationship in place. Reddit gave us the tools to create and have a community, and they got all of the revenue. It wasn’t a great deal, but it wasn’t entirely terrible either.
But I stopped giving them my free labour when we shut down. Indeed, even though we knew Reddit would have preferred we step down voluntarily we (my fellow mods and I) weren’t even going to do that much work for them. If they wanted it back, then they had to kick us out
Re: Look at how they treated the r/Canning mods. (Score:1, Troll)
Many mods claim to have implemented a vote, but only very active members would vote because they werenâ(TM)t announced, the period was very brief and sometimes the choices were invalid. There was also no third party to verify the votes and a ton of brigading on those polls. For all we know the polls were closed when you got the desired answer.
Color me surprised that Reddit doesnâ(TM)t care about the opinion of a group of randos with an axe to grind. People can vote with their feet, leave the platf
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Great plan, Reddit. Threaten and then evict people that were giving you stuff for free. It's not as if there are dozens of other places that people can go.
Already Lemmy and Kbin are more popular (and improving). Heck even Telegram is jumping into the stories business. Reddit will become the myspace of the future.,
Even Slashdot has gotten more users lately.
Can't figure out (Score:2)
what this person's goal is.
Placate the moderators? Very uncertain they will be placated with words.
Figure out what the moderators want? They have made it pretty clear and the company must be very well aware of exactly what it is. If this is not the case, after so much time and friction, we're looking at a communication failure of epic proportions.
Appease investors "look! we're trying!"? Very certain they can not be tricked so easily.
Add to their list of "things we tried" which they intend to use later, as p
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We tried putting them on a tighter leash and promised we would keep them under a lot tighter surveillance, and STILL they refused.
Ingrates!
How wonderful (Score:5, Interesting)
We're now at the reconciliation stage of the abuse cycle.
They're really sorry you made them act the way they did, don't worry though! They promise now it will be better. Bonus points because not only will they get what they want but in record time this will all become part of the past.
Americans are top notch at forgetting the fucked up things people in power so to them, hell you can try to destroy democracy and the worst you'll get is a stern taking to and maaaybe some jail time. Shit, it's a free ride if you supported the insurrection as long as you're a law maker. Right Josh Hawley? We love traitors! Wouldn't want to upset the money filled apple cart now would we.
Now go be good little plebes and give them your money.
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We're now at the reconciliation stage of the abuse cycle.
They're really sorry you made them act the way they did, don't worry though! They promise now it will be better.
I see nothing in his post that says, or even can be misconstrued, as things getting better.
If anything he is saying reddit demands to keep their mods on an even tighter leash.
His last sentence in the post introduction says it all really:
Tens of thousands of mods engage daily on Reddit and, in order to enable all of you, we need consistent, inclusive, and direct connection with you.
They must have a direct connection to the mods. NOT a connection from the mods to reddit.
This is a one way command and control
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So... it IS an abusive relationship? That sounds a lot like reconciliation in an abusive relationship. Here's a list of reasons why you should stay with me, and we will spend a LOT more time together!
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So it's like store credit then.
How is it going for Digg? (Score:2)
I seem to remember they did something equally stupid to piss off their customers.
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Digg's problem was that there was Reddit, waiting and very willing to take over their user base.
What we have today is a federated system that doesn't exactly have the marketing clout behind it to buy an article in every remotely relevant paper telling people where to go.
Re: How is it going for Digg? (Score:2)
The users of Reddit digg Facebook Twitter etc are not the customer they are the product.
Not an olive branch (Score:5, Insightful)
Reddit should be run by someone more ethical. (Score:5, Funny)
I nominate Elon Musk.
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Yes, we can't have amateurs drive big webpages into walls.
This needs to be headed by a professional wall driver.
They want money for something that was free? (Score:2)
Fair enough. Now they should abide to their rules and hire mods instead of depending on free labor offering nothing in exchange.
Abuse cyle, step 3 (Score:4, Insightful)
We have arrived at reconciliation, I see. Nice, nice, let's see if the Reddit moderators are already in enough of a Stockholm Syndrome to fall for it.
Frankly, this is weaksauce. Your actions speak way, way louder than your words could.
FCK u/spez! (Score:2)
FCK u/spez!
Just for the record (Score:2)
I haven't visited Reddit since this whole thing blew up, except once when force of habit got me before my brain kicked in. Until they decide the thousands upon thousands of hours moderators have contributed to their success are worth more than abuse and disrespect, Go_JasonWaterfalls and his bosses can kiss my hairy ass.
I have zero sympathy for mods (Score:1)
No value in being a Reddit mod (Score:2)
They are being exploited as slaves. Time to quit and move on. Its a thankless job with no appreciation and no reward
Reddit the company doesn't know how Reddit works (Score:2)
There is a serious disconnect with the company and its key users. Reddit management plus a group of highly technical people keep Reddit running at scale. But I feel like neither really grasps what actually goes on on Reddit. I don't know what needs to be done differently, perhaps the executive team needs to go on a ride-a-long with subreddit moderators to better understand how their product is actually being used.
Some "olive branch" (Score:2)
If the "olive branch" being offered has been stripped of its leaves and had the bark peeled off, what's the real symbolism here?
Sort of reminds me of the old parental-discipline trope of "Go get me something to beat you with!".
"Trust requires time and experience" (Score:3)
As Picard said.
And it's a business proverb that you can lose it overnight.