Why US Women Now Live Almost 6 Years Longer Than Men (time.com) 191
According to a new study published in JAMA Internal Medicine, women in the U.S. are now projected to live about six years longer than U.S. men. TIME reports: [T]he 2021 data represent the largest gender-based life expectancy gap in the U.S. since 1996. The gulf began to widen before the COVID-19 pandemic, the authors note, but the trend accelerated from 2019 to 2021. Deaths from COVID-19 and unintentional injuries, a category that includes accidental drug overdoses, were the largest contributors to the widening of the gap, but differential rates of homicide, heart disease, and suicide deaths also played a role, according to the report. It's well-established that men die of these causes more frequently than women, and in recent years, they have been some of the most common causes of death overall. Heart disease, COVID-19, and unintentional injuries accounted for three of the top five in 2021.
The gender gap would have been even wider, the authors note, but for factors including increases in maternal mortality and decreases in cancer deaths among men. Overall, the data underscore the continued importance of limiting COVID-19's spread, and of finding better ways to improve national mental health and prevent drug overdoses and suicides -- fatalities sometimes labeled by experts as "deaths of despair."
The gender gap would have been even wider, the authors note, but for factors including increases in maternal mortality and decreases in cancer deaths among men. Overall, the data underscore the continued importance of limiting COVID-19's spread, and of finding better ways to improve national mental health and prevent drug overdoses and suicides -- fatalities sometimes labeled by experts as "deaths of despair."
Men are too stubborn (Score:5, Interesting)
Part of the reason is men are too stubborn to go to the doctor, take their medicine, or take a walk once a week.
https://imgur.com/gallery/zr2V... [imgur.com]
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Another reason is genetic. Women have a backup for all their genes, but men have no backup for the genes on the X chromosome. This is why many recessive genes on the X chromosome, such as color blindness and hemophilia, are rarely seen in women.
Yet another reason is evolution. Men have evolved to be bigger to defend the tribe and fight off rivals. Smaller men outlive bigger men but are less likely to have offspring. Women have no biological imperative to be bigger, so can be the optimum size for good health
Re:Men are too stubborn (Score:5, Interesting)
It goes deeper. Traditional "there's a problem" instinct in women is to protect the offspring. I.e. they will run away from the problem.
Men have the opposite response. They run toward the problem, because they are the ones who need to make sure that women and children survive into the future. That leads to death even in today's world, but defines the factors that count as an "acceptable risk" completely different for two genders. Women are far more risk averse than men.
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It goes deeper. Traditional "there's a problem" instinct in women is to protect the offspring. I.e. they will run away from the problem.
Men have the opposite response. They run toward the problem, because they are the ones who need to make sure that women and children survive into the future. That leads to death even in today's world, but defines the factors that count as an "acceptable risk" completely different for two genders. Women are far more risk averse than men.
Sounds like a "just-so" story trying to justify dumb male risk taking as some kind of altruistic act.
It's not even a particularly good mechanism proposed. The behaviour you want is protectiveness and self-sacrifice, but that doesn't excess male risk taking (or men not going to the doctor).
Now, there's evolutionary driven male behaviours that actually do explain the excess male mortality. Competition for mates.
First, men have to compete more to find mates, that means they need to take extra risks in order to
Re:Men are too stubborn (Score:4, Insightful)
... Wow. Men being more risktaking gender is "movies" is it?
Have you ever interacted with people in real life? At all?
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Man in real life at nearly anytime in history (Including my sapiens neighbor): Hey there's something new and scary. Better kill it to make the fear go away!
Nearly any male protagonist in motion pictures from last century: Hey there's something new and scary. Let's go kill it to make the fear go away!
Maybe life follows art though.
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Amusing! But "funny picture" does not substitute for "data".
Oddly, that's not actually deadly behavior: there's no electrical path for current to flow through the heart.
Re:Men are too stubborn (Score:5, Funny)
All wild speculation.
Not at all. There's plenty of empirical evidence: The Darwin Awards: sex differences in idiotic behaviour [bmj.com].
Women have won a few Darwin Awards, but almost always for momentary carelessness, like taking a selfie on a high-speed railroad track.
Meticulously planned and deliberately executed idiotic behavior is almost always correlated with a Y chromosome.
Anecdotes are selected to be funny [Re:Men are...] (Score:2)
Not at all. There's plenty of empirical evidence: The Darwin Awards: sex differences in idiotic behaviour [bmj.com].
I take it that this paper was meant to be tongue in cheek?
I remind everybody here again that it's a cliché in science that "the plural of anecdote is not data."
And, specifically, "the plural of anecdotes selected from a set because they are funny is very much not data."
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And, specifically, "the plural of anecdotes selected from a set because they are funny is very much not data."
If you're selecting for humorous self-inflicted death regardless of gender and you find that one gender dominates the result, then either one gender dying is less funny, or that there's something different about the ways or the frequency with which that gender kills itself.
Since I don't think people generally regard women offing themselves in stupid ways as any less funny than men doing the same, my money is on women killing themselves in stupid ways far less frequently.
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That's highly speculative. Something with more evidence is hormones. ...
Some studies show eunuchs living longer than women. US sex offenders who have been chemically castrated also seem to have a substantially longer lifespan than controls. So if men want to live longer, there is one proven method
https://edition.cnn.com/2012/0... [cnn.com]
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A less drastic way would be to give men a better model of masculinity to follow, as an outlet for those hormonal drives they experience.
We used to have competitions where people fought to the death. Now we have much safer sports, although some still carry a high risk of injury. We can keep refining this.
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Are you in London today? If so I recommend you attend the annual BAHfest at Imperial College. Since your ideas would I think appeal to the audience there. This is what the event is about:
https://www.smbc-comics.com/co... [smbc-comics.com]
For the reading impaired or lazy: just so stories are not evolutionary facts no matter how much they flatter your ego or fit your worldview.
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The article is about why the gap has widened, not so much why it was there in the first place. Maybe women have developed extra genes while no one was looking?
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The article is about why the gap has widened, not so much why it was there in the first place. Maybe women have developed extra genes while no one was looking?
Of course not.
As the article notes, there are a number of reasons. Most good, hormones, risk taking, declining extensive medial care. I'm surprised they don't touch on men having some of the most dangerous jobs.
What is interesting is that they don't touch on another possible reason.
They came close with the "depths of despair" thing, but missed the mark. Many men simply don't care.
The male of the species is not terribly popular, and are bombarded by enough shaming that just might have some small part
Been that way for a while (Score:2)
This is news from a year ago.
It's more informative to look at the actual life expectancy graphs, not just the difference:
https://usafacts.org/articles/... [usafacts.org]
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Err.. No. Humans have 23 *pairs* of chromosomes and the sex determining chromosone is just one pair -- and that pair doesn't work the way you seem to think.
The *base* life expectancy difference between men and women is due to a combination of behavioral and biological differences. The biggest biological difference is that men have a higher propensity to develop heart disease, which is consistently the largest source of mortality in the US, just ahead of cancer. That right there is going to make a big dif
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Do you know that the main reason for women living longer on average used to be that men died in battles. Has this changed?
Correct: the explanation "men die in battle" does not account for the current statistics, since the number of US males who die in battle is very small compared to the number who die not in battle.
Graph here: https://usafacts.org/articles/... [usafacts.org]
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Citation? [Re:Men are too stubborn] (Score:2)
If you factor out all the people dying early because of extreme behavior or in extreme conditions, the life expectancy gap between women and men narrows to a few month.
Would like to see the analysis showing this. Clearly some of it is attributable to behavior (including things like the fact that men are overrepresented in dangerous jobs). But I've never seen data showing that over 90% of the difference is attributable to behavior. The main contributing factor is higher cardiovascular disease (CVD) morbidity and mortality in men: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.go... [nih.gov]
Note that the difference is also seen in other mamallian species: https://www.voanews.com/a/scie... [voanews.com]
Re: Men are too stubborn (Score:2)
Can it be "mammoth behaviour"? https://www.sciencenews.org/bl... [sciencenews.org]
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A. They want to!
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Part of the reason is men are too stubborn to go to the doctor, take their medicine, or take a walk once a week.
https://imgur.com/gallery/zr2V... [imgur.com]
Another thing. There's an old saying - Men die before their wives because they want to.
That's not inaccurate either. I have no intention of taking extraordinary measure to eke out a few more years. The problem wiht life extension is it's all on the old and decrepit end of life. Great - spend an extra decade in a nursing home.
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The main reason is that men have to put up with women.
Maternal mortality (Score:2)
Re:Maternal mortality (Score:5, Insightful)
Not really. It's mainly a problem of obesity.
It's also a problem of how US healthcare works. Every other developed country has public healthcare, and this seems to give better results and lower total costs as measured by share of GDP.
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Just imagine how much older the average would become when all got decent medical support.
About the cost of US healthcare, a lot of Europeans have healthcare insurance that also works when traveling abroad, the one exception is when you visit the US, then you have to buy extra insurance because the place i so expensive.
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Sure but that doesn't explain the gender difference.
The gender difference in maternal mortality is not difficult to explain.
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The United States has public healthcare. The United States spend inordinate amounts of money on healthcare, including its public healthcare options. Yet Americans still frequently experience poor outcomes.
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International Men's Day (Score:5, Interesting)
19 November is International Men's Day [wikipedia.org]
Society doesn't care about men (Score:3, Informative)
The only Men's Shelter in Canada Calls for Help [youtube.com]
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Society has never cared about men:
https://psmag.com/environment/... [psmag.com]
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You could type your question into Google and find out.
Time to raise women's pension age (Score:2)
If they're going to live longer, they should work longer! Seems reasonable. For decades men worked longer... ;)
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If they're going to live longer, they should work longer! Seems reasonable. For decades men worked longer... ;)
Because for decades women stayed home to care for the kids, take care of the house, etc.
Also, because families could survive on one salary so there was no need for her to work.
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.. for decades women stayed home to care for the kids, take care of the house, etc.
When I started work, the retirement age for women was 5 years lower than that for men. Nothing to do with kids, and somehow the house was taking care of itself for those years since the kids left.
Also, because families could survive on one salary so there was no need for her to work.
Salaries went down in real terms when it became usual for every woman to work, and employers realised you would tolerate a lower salary each for the same lifestyle. When my parents bought a 3-bed house in a respectable area, the mortgage was based on my father's salary alone (which was nothing special). On the e
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Because for decades women stayed home to care for the kids, take care of the house, etc.
Also, because families could survive on one salary so there was no need for her to work.
The reason that two incomes are just about mandatory now is that women were told that working outside the home was the path to happiness. And they bought into it.
So as more and more women decided to work in a career, if eventually brought supply and demand, as the potential workforce nearly doubled.
Relative Wages have remained stagnant.
The awkward thing is that many women haven't found the career driven life as much a paradise as they were told. I've seen enough vids complaining that they're tired, a
Equality (Score:5, Insightful)
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Well you're probably going to call this "victim blaming" but I definitely think its more of a refusal by many men in this county to react to very well known data. I've certainly been aware since I was a child that men are more prone to heart disease meanwhile my country's obesity epidemic continues with over a third of men being obese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]. (never mind the far larger number of those overweight), a very well known contributor to heart disease.
Homicides too, we can see in our hom
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Re: Equality (Score:2)
I suspect I will live longer if I run from a gun fight. Participation seems like a 50/50 chance no matter what gun I buy and barely train myself to use.
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What are you even talking about?
it were simply men being more prone to heart disease, not only would...
I covered two of the major issues they describe in the summary and then I end stating that what I was talking about does not apply to all of the issues in the summary
your statement on weight implies it’s their own bad choices and they deserve what they get, but are you going to go on the record and say that about women?
Hahaha, what? For starters we're talking about men not women so this is nonsense. Almost any woman whose had a child has much more of a burden in terms of weight than any man. There is however a level of personal responsibility even for ladies (although much more for men) as 50 years ago America wasn't anywhere n
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I covered two of the major issues they describe in the summary and then I end stating that what I was talking about does not apply to all of the issues in the summary
You touched on the issue, went off tangentially compared to the actual paper, all while preceding it with “ but I definitely think its more of a refusal by many men in this county to react to very well known data” implying it’s their fault and they got what’s coming to them with no mention that perhaps the societal pressures are to blame. The society being made of men and women.
Homicides down 7% recently doesn't at all undermining what im saying. We still have homicide and gun violence rates 5 times that of other first world countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ [wikipedia.org]... [wikipedia.org] , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ [wikipedia.org]... [wikipedia.org] . A 7% positive spin is pathetic relative to the scope of our problem.
Americas problems with guns are decades, if not centuries old. The recent change in relative lifespans ha
Two questions [Re:Equality] (Score:2)
Two different things being discussed in the discussion thread here. One is "why is the life expectancy lower for men than women?" and the other is "why is the gap in life expectancy between men and women increasing?"
A significant part of the difference in life expectancy between men and women is due to higher mortality at an earlier age for heart disease in men compared to women.
The question about the increase, however, is different. But one factor (of many) in the difference is a higher mortality due to C
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Well you're probably going to call this "victim blaming" but I definitely think its more of a refusal by many men in this county to react to very well known data.
What is your reaction to women being happier after their husband are dead ?https://www.ajc.com/news/world/women-happier-after-age-once-spouse-dies-psychiatrists-say/ifVqdY8tuPmRVEdFXaHMjI/
You're stepping on a lot of women's healing journey - This is pure patriarchy BS tring to have men live longer, and women are the most affected.
Re:Equality (Score:4, Insightful)
The obesity rate is slightly higher for women when age adjusted and the same in absolute terms.
So what? We know obesity is a leading cause of heart disease and we know men are dieing by the droves due to heart disease. Furthermore, men put on weight differently than women. Women's weight is more distributed while we're prone to gut fat which is by far the worst type of fat to carry in excess in terms of its effects on health.
There are far more suicides by gun than murders by gun.
Once again, so what? That does not at all change the fact that our homicide and gun violence rates are 5 times the first world average.
I suppose we could ditch the second amendment and ban all fire arms. Then we'd see the rate of knifing attacks sky rocket like in the UK.
Please, please, please take a moment to familiarize yourself with proper data on this subject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] . The UK's homicide rate is nothing compared to ours. It's only high by their own averages.
After that, we know the answer to many of the questions you ask at the end of your post as I've illustrated above. Only with drug deaths (which I wasn't referring to) that have only become especially bad recently is there room for your doubt.
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Obesity rates being the same matters because you can't say an excess of men are dying of obesity when there are fewer obese men. This should be obvious basic math.
The absolute number of gun deaths also matters and the reason for those deaths.
As I explained already: suicides will just find another way so the fact they chose gun vs sleeping pills is not specifically a gun caused death that would have been prevented if guns didn't exist. They'd still be dead from something else.
And that suite rate reduces th
opinions unsupported by data [Re:Equality] (Score:4, Insightful)
There are far more suicides by gun than murders by gun. The suicides would have killed themselves in some other way anyway.... People who want to kill themselves or another will find a way.
Data shows that this is not the case. Access to guns increases the death rate by suicide.
Many reasons for this. Most suicides aren't carefully planned and thought out; having a gun available makes it easy to do. Turns out that when people are depressed they're not good at planning things out. Also (and possibly the more important factor) gun suicide attempts are significantly more likely to be successful.
There is minimal correlation in the statistics between ease of acquiring a weapon and the gun death rate in a state.
Not sure where you get these statistics. As you point out, most gun deaths are suicides, and more than twice as many suicides by firearm occur in states with the fewest gun laws, relative to states with the most laws. Reference: https://www.kff.org/mental-hea... [kff.org]
A nice map of all gun death rates (both suicide and homicide) is here: https://www.pewresearch.org/sh... [pewresearch.org]
I suppose we could ditch the second amendment and ban all fire arms. Then we'd see the rate of knifing attacks sky rocket like in the UK.
America is not going to ditch the second amendment; the mechanisms for amending the constitution make this pretty much a non-starter. However, in response to your second point, data shows United Kingdom homicide rate is 1 per 100,000, while United Statesit's 6.8 per 100,000. So turns out even "skyrocketing" rates of knife attacks have a death toll that small compared to just shooting people.
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Mod has no answer to anything so mods troll. So funny. I love "winning the internet" and having proof of it. Thanks!
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And ooooh surprise, dumbass with mod points and no counter points votes down as flame bait. It's only flame bait if you're an ignorant triggered dumb ass who doesn't have a grasp of basic statistics and the relevant data.
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America and its freedom and constitution was founded by guns to fight off Tyranny
Guns were never necessary though. Canada and Australia are doing just fine nowadays
Nobody is going to get fooled again.
No, now we just have fools that believe that thousand upon thousands of unnecessary deaths are somehow necessary for some abstract fear that our democratic government might turn evil some day. We're the only first world country in the world to hold such absurd views.
Even in Australia my cousin (who lives near Sydney) says people are getting burglarized all the time now that criminals know guns are banned
I'd be curious to see proper data on their crime rates versus ours rather than going off "well my cousin says" but I'm not going to do your job of providing prope
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Anecdotes always lead to the most amusing debates because you can literally find anyone to say anything.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Numbers from the World Bank Group for 2021 for the world average are:
Life expectancy = 71.33
Male life expectancy = 68.89
Female average expectancy = 73.95
Gender gap = 5.06
For the US:
Life expectancy = 76.33
Male life expectancy = 73.50
Female average expectancy = 79.30
Gender gap = 5.80
There are lots of more numbers to digest, for those eager. Meanwhile maybe I should m
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The world average probably isn't a great comparitor. The US does seem to be on the lower end of differential life expectancy by sex compared to peer nations. It's flanked in life expectancy by Algeria (3.08 year differential) and Panama (6.54), but most of the close nations are in the 5 or 6 range.
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My mom's old folks home is all women (Score:3)
My mom decided last year to move into an assisted living situation.
There are about 250 residents. Almost all women. Her place is only 10 minutes away so I visit several times a month. I've seen only 3-4 male residents in the last year in total across my numerous times there. I haven't asked the staff but the women seem to be at least 95% of the population.
The gap may be widening as per the article but my anecdotal experience is men were already wiped out by the late 70s / early 80s for whatever reasons.
Statistical artefact (Score:3)
While it is a well know fact the women live longer than men on average for a variety of reasons, the recent numbers are heavily influenced by the covid pandemic because of the way live expectancy is calculated.
Covid killed many people, with a higher proportion of men, resulting in a sharp drop in life expectancy and more so in men. But it is a statistical artefact, people should not expect to die sooner now that the pandemic has passed, and life expectancy should do back up and the gender gap shrink, that's unless something else happens in the future. It is just that life expectancy is actually a measure of the past, not the future, it is statistics, not fortune telling, and events like pandemics, or wars result in sharp, but temporary drops, and in the case of wars, large gender gaps as men are usually the ones who fight and get killed.
It doesn't mean there isn't something other than covid (and it is mentioned in the article), but covid makes it harder to draw conclusions for now as it is the dominant cause of the widening gender gap.
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COVID-19 death rates were indeed a factor, but this was not the largest factor in the increase in death rate of men.
Drug overdoses and suicide rates were larger factors in the increased mortality rate and the discrepancy in mortality rate between men and women.
I call it the "Hold my beer" effect (Score:2)
We need a male equivalent of Valentine's Day (Score:5, Funny)
I have a proposal that may help reverse this sad trend. For many years, there has been discussion about establishing Steak and BJ Day for men. The time to move beyond mere discussion is now. It would give us something to live for.
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I have a proposal that may help reverse this sad trend. For many years, there has been discussion about establishing Steak and BJ Day for men. The time to move beyond mere discussion is now. It would give us something to live for.
As a man, I already give plenty year-round. Not really looking forward to giving steak & BJs too.
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I'm sorry, sir, but this may be one of those times you'll have to lean into the strike zone and take one for the team...as it were.
Your generosity of spirit will be very much appreciated.
Why do men die before their wives? (Score:2)
Thank you thank you I'll be here all night. Tip the veal and try your waitress!
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Want to reduce overdose deaths? (Score:2)
Legalize drugs so people will know what they are taking.
I'm surprised it's only 6! w/ danger/expectations (Score:2)
Next: Urban Violence...hits poor black and latino communities harder, but the vast majority of victims of gang violence are men.
Next: Dangerous jobs.
Taking Bodybuilding Crap (Score:2)
Crap supplements, TRT at too early an age, and all the other "safe" steroid replacements are finally catching up with them.
the patriarchy (Score:2)
This is more evidence of the patriarchy lording it over women.
Yeah, that's the ticket. All those macho guys keep women out of macho guys jobs, where they work themselves to an early death or die in work accidents.
Women who ... (Score:2)
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That six year difference is because the men are getting nagged to death.
If that were true, single men would outlive married men.
They don't.
Re: The answer is obvious (Score:3)
But is that after they lost their house in the divorce?
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No, you see - it's the single guys that are getting constantly nagged "when are we gonna get married?" We married guys caved early, so we don't get nagged quite as much.
Re:The answer is obvious (Score:4, Interesting)
There's an assumption there that unmarried men don't get nagged to death by women.
Better test would be to check how gays are doing after certain age (after hyper-promiscuous gays die off from opportunistic diseases).
Basically, same way we debunked "men are the cause of spousal violence" hypothesis that was so popular. We compared violence within heterosexual unions and both homosexual unions. To find that lesbians are something like three times as likely to have spousal violence as heteros, and homos are half as likely as heteros. I.e. "no woman in relationship, no problem" was actually the correct answer.
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lesbians are something like three times as likely to have spousal violence as heteros
Or perhaps just more likely to report it.
For spousal abuse, it's difficult to separate the rate of occurrence from the rate of reporting. Men are conditioned to "man up" and take it, and often not taken seriously even when they do report abuse.
Better evidence to show women's capability for violence is child abuse. Mothers are more likely to physically abuse their children and are twice as likely to kill their children as fathers.
71% of Children Killed by One Parent are Killed by Their Mothers [breakingthescience.org]
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>Or perhaps just more likely to report it.
The need to excuse poor behavior of women is another inherent human trait by the way. Easily visible in judgments handed down for similar crimes to men and women.
As for spousal issues, the "woman is the main problem" issue is even visible in things like "why did you get divorced" questionnaires in social studies, before this subject became taboo due to penetration of wokeness into social sciences. Lesbians divorce more, and their reasoning had much higher rate of
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As much as I advocate for equal treatment of men in society, I do wonder if these numbers demonstrate what we think they do. Since mothers are far more likely to be the caretakers of their children, it makes sense that they would be more likely to abuse or murder them. The stat that would be really interesting is how d
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That six year difference is because the men are getting nagged to death.
If that were true, single men would outlive married men.
They don't.
In my parents age group, the single guys outlived all the married guys.
Re:And still they WHINE! (Score:5, Interesting)
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Deaths from prostate cancer: About 34,700 deaths from prostate cancer in 2023 (source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=... [google.com])
Deaths from breast cancer: About 42,000 women and 500 men in the U.S. die each year (source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=... [google.com])
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And? In the grand scheme of things they are within margin of error. As in when looked at from the population of the U.S. it's 0.010% die from prostate cancer, and 0.012% breast cancer. And that's including the men who die from it too. That's also taking into account that 2023 is not yet over, OR the fact that you didn't use the average of prostate cancer deaths and did breast cancer.
When calculated out the yearly death toll averages to 18.8 prostate cancer deaths per 100,000 and 19.4 per 100,000 for breast
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My personal biased opinions are that the extended lifespan women enjoy is due to being treated better through life.
We live in an age where people become outraged by the data that says "One out of 5 homeless people are women."
That means 4 out of 5 homeless are men, and the women are living mostly in shelters, not on the streets.
Do they really want to extend our lifetimes to come closer to women's? After all women are happier after their husbands die. Before anyone claims otherwise - https://www.ajc.com/news/world... [ajc.com]
But rather than being off topic, I believe that this is something that should be discussed. It's a
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Men graduate less, work longer hours, retire later and die sooner.
So what you're saying is men are the weaker sex?
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Men graduate less, work longer hours, retire later and die sooner.
So what you're saying is men are the weaker sex?
In terms of health: that seems to be the case, yes.
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men do most the dangerous and grueling work to build, repair, protect civilization.
This won't change.
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men do most the dangerous and grueling work to build, repair, protect civilization.
Also the dangerous and grueling work to destroy, break, and attack civilization, I'm afraid.
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Dude has a lot of kids for a eunuch.
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Yeah now you're just throwing punches below the belt. Fortunately (for the kids) there aren't many pictures of them online to look for a resemblence, but odds are good they're actually his. Something like 97%+, and that's dismissing the background of the mother. Mor Shapiro is probably not sleeping around behind his back, and she probably wouldn't sleep around behind any man's back, if her upbringing is any indicator (yes it could still happen, but a conservative Israeli woman is far less likely to do th
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Got it.
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Until then: Fuck off, you demented moron.