New Cars Bought in the UK Must Be Zero Emission by 2035 (theregister.com) 202
All new cars and vans bought in the UK must be zero emission by 2035, according to the latest legal mandate updated this week. From a report: The date for all new petrol and diesel cars to be banned was originally set for 2030. However, in September, Prime Minister Rishi Sunak pushed this date back to 2035. The government says this is giving consumers more time to make the switch and deal with the UK's charging infrastructure.
The transition will still be challenging. Eighty percent of new cars and 70 percent of new vans sold in Great Britain must be zero emission by 2030, increasing to 100 percent by 2035. While the government points to statistics indicating a 41 percent increase in zero-emission vehicles registered for the first time -- note, the vast majority of newly registered vehicles still remain conventionally powered -- charging infrastructure is an altogether different story. The government boasts of more than 50,000 public charge points, an increase of 44 percent year on year, but not all chargers are born equal. According to research from RAC, a local roadside assistance business, the government has failed to meet its target of having six or more rapid or ultra-rapid electric vehicle chargers at every motorway service area in England.
The transition will still be challenging. Eighty percent of new cars and 70 percent of new vans sold in Great Britain must be zero emission by 2030, increasing to 100 percent by 2035. While the government points to statistics indicating a 41 percent increase in zero-emission vehicles registered for the first time -- note, the vast majority of newly registered vehicles still remain conventionally powered -- charging infrastructure is an altogether different story. The government boasts of more than 50,000 public charge points, an increase of 44 percent year on year, but not all chargers are born equal. According to research from RAC, a local roadside assistance business, the government has failed to meet its target of having six or more rapid or ultra-rapid electric vehicle chargers at every motorway service area in England.
Can't afford a 50 thousand dollar car (Score:2)
I know I know UK... But still, sorry. 30K is the most I'm going to pay for a vehicle. End of story.
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If you didn't know better, you might think they are trying to create this situation to promote some other agenda.
Re:Can't afford a 50 thousand dollar car (Score:5, Insightful)
Even if the agenda is to adopt public transportation it won't work until my generation dies off. There's NO WAY anyone can convince me that riding with a bunch of weirdos in a bus/train is better than my ICE car experience. I literally will have to die before I stop driving in my own personal vehicle. There's millions of people who feel like me. Even in the best cities in Europe with their modern public transportation you can't convince me it's better. Even in Japan with super fast trains that need 'people stuffers' to make everyone fit in the train... I'm not riding a bike to the supermarket either. Too much toothpaste is already out of the tube and my bar for crap is too low to do anything else now. Same with cities. Once you live off in the country for a while there's no going back. Not voluntarily anyway.
Re:Can't afford a 50 thousand dollar car (Score:5, Informative)
Even in Japan with super fast trains that need 'people stuffers' to make everyone fit in the train...
Tell us you've never been on a train in Japan, without telling us you've never been on a train in Japan.
Here's a hint: the Shinkansen (inter-city high speed rail) has assigned seating.
Regional trains and subways can get crowded, but having spent almost a month in Japan recently without sitting behind the steering wheel of a vehicle even once, I didn't see a single "people stuffer" anywhere in Tokyo, Yokohama, Tsurumaki, Kyoto, Osaka, or Hiroshima at any hour of any day. Why? There's another train coming in 5 minutes, and another 5 minutes after that, and the vast majority of Japanese people respect other people by default, and if a train is full, they're not going to shove themselves in knowing there's another one coming soon.
But hey, nothing like a little casual racism mixed in with extreme ignorance to make yourself look ridiculous.
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Yes, I've been to Japan. I've seen the polite, white glove-wearing, "stuffers" by the trains. There's times when they are helpful to get everyone in. But "racism"? What? But hey, @MachineShedFred, nothing like a little casual racism mixed in with extreme ignorance to make yourself look ridiculous.
I rode in private cars, rode in public trains, and rode bicycles, all in Japan. All have their purposes.
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> But hey, nothing like a little casual racism mixed in with extreme ignorance to make yourself look ridiculous.
The post you replied to was not racist at all. He said "even in Japan" ... actually putting Japan above the US / EU, as Japanese are known for politeness and efficiency. Why do "YOU LOT", whoever you are, have to call people racist even when the only thing they mentioned is another etnicity, and not even in derogatory way? What is actually wrong with you?
I don't know what's wrong with you, but
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Oh, right. So a video from 7 years go showing a single incident that to me looks like a malfunctioning door means that clearly happens at every train station across Metropolitan Tokyo, right?
Also, that video has absolutely nothing to do with the high speed trains you referred to, which have assigned seating and have never had anything even remotely close to that happen, ever.
So yeah, just keep doubling down on terrible stereotypes that don't intersect with observable reality. That doesn't make you look ri
Re:Can't afford a 50 thousand dollar car (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm going out on a limb and infer that you have never really commuted by light rail or lived in a "walking community".
It's great
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Even if the agenda is to adopt public transportation it won't work until my generation dies off.
How would you bring anything home beyond a very small bag? How would this work if you are disabled? Would you be expected to travel blocks to kilometers in a wheelchair in adverse weather and snow each time? You would be at the mercy of any and all delivery being a monopoly, having to pay massive delivery fees for everything from a bit of lumber to kitchen appliances when they couldn’t be easily transported anymore. There would still have to be roads because of emergency services, trash service,
Re: Can't afford a 50 thousand dollar car (Score:3)
If you like wasting your time and money. Here in London it can literally take 50% longer to drive than taking public transport. Cycling can be even faster. My commute 17km across central London was 50-55 mins by bicycle, 1h5-1h20 by public transport and 1h30-2h by car. I was pretty damned fit from this. And the car costs an order of magnitude more too.
Iâ(TM)m happy to cycle to the supermarket too. I do the family shop once a week and can get 25-30kg in a 70l rucksack. Itâ(TM)s just one thin
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London is just a terrible place for cars. Last time I was there I went around something you call 'The Magic Roundabout' and almost never got off. Driving to a pub resembled the 'Rally Cross' stuff I see on TV with narrow roads and hedge rows all over the place (But the pub was like something out of Lord of the Rings so it was worth it).
Agreed, London is hostile to automobiles...
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Get some panniers or a milk crate.
Cramming a ton of shit into a backpack on a bike is a young man's game. I made the switch recently. Game changing.
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I've heard others say this too. It has occurred to me that one I might need to do that, but I've been doing it this way all my adult life and I'm not finding it difficult or annoying. I'm going to be 50 this year... when do I stop being a young man?
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It is not difficult or annoying until you try panniers. Then a backpack suddenly stops being practical.
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BTW, after convincing my wife to take the plunge and get a bike through the cycle-to-work scheme, she got panniers and loves them. I'm still not convinced they're for me (yet), but it's good to see somebody else loving the active life style and no longer being held to ransome by traffic and other random factors.
Re:Can't afford a 50 thousand dollar car (Score:5, Insightful)
Even in the best cities in Europe with their modern public transportation you can't convince me it's better.
And this is why laws are coming in: quite a few people are beyond any rational incentives.
Re:Can't afford a 50 thousand dollar car (Score:5, Insightful)
EV charging is similar, it's completely impractical to take a long trip and there is no solution even proposed. The "bike and choo choo" crowd considers that a feature, not a bug.
Having driven across the continental US and back in an EV more than once, I can say that this is an absolutely stupid statement that does not intersect with easily observable reality.
Re:Can't afford a 50 thousand dollar car (Score:5, Informative)
The charger guidance is built into the turn-by-turn navigation. I can tell my car to navigate from Portland, Oregon to Washington, DC and it builds in charging stops where charging is going to be the most efficient, how long I'm going to have to charge in order to get to the next charger with a margin of error, and exact directions leading me to the charger, as well as data on how many stalls are open, and the navigation has the ability to change the route based on that availability while I'm still on approach.
Oh, and the car starts chilling the battery about 20 minutes before arrival at the charger, so it can be charged at the maximum rate curve while I'm plugged in.
And all the chargers are basically in parking lots of convenience stores and grocery stores, so there's no shortage of venues for getting a bite to eat, using the restroom, letting a dog take care of business if I have one with me, refreshing snacks and beverages, etc. At the end of the charging session, I've been there maybe 20 minutes longer than I would have been in the exact same place anyway getting liquid fuel, and those 20 minutes are largely spent catching up on things on my phone, or watching Netflix and mentally logging it as "break time" which allows for better concentration on driving safely once I return to the road.
That's how it's stupid. You don't have any relevant information on how it works - you're making wild assumptions that just don't line up with easily observed reality, and you keep doing it.
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The idea that you “need” turn-by-turn navigation to get from Oregon to DC is somewhat absurd itself, leaving out the charger part of it. A quick glance at a map can show the various Interstate routes to get there. The entire Interstate numbering system is designed for ease of travel purposes. Even numbers east-west, odd north-south, loops and spurs are three numbers. Food and fuel stops are found at exits and/or rest areas.
Re:Can't afford a 50 thousand dollar car (Score:5, Insightful)
He didn't say that he needs it. Just that it does all the work planning for him.
And yes, at Tesla's current rate of buildout, it'll be a few more years before they equal the 80+ years of rollouts for gas stations. Though I remember reading that the number of gas stations are actually declining. I'd believe it - little 2 pump stations are disappearing and you're getting 12+ pump stations going in.
Convenience stores are going from postage stamp sized to bigger than many fast food joints.
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Good work not reading what I wrote, and / or addressing things that nobody wrote at all.
It was a fucking example. I could have just as easily put hard to locate endpoints on the journey, and the facts would remain the same. For example, if I wanted to route from Scotts Mills, Oregon to Upper Sandusky, Ohio. Or Riverton, CA to Craftsbury, VT. Or any number of other starts and destinations.
You have failed at basic logic and reason, and somehow felt compelled to respond anyway. Well done.
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For a long trip through three EU countries I did spend a few minutes on the app of my favorite (=cheapest) charging company to plan the stations to be used and did not loose any significant time because a stop every few hours is prudent anyway.
Re:Can't afford a 50 thousand dollar car (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it points out how ignorant you are to the state of EVs while commenting on EVs.
Commenting on something and continuing to comment on something that you have no actual knowledge of, even after it's been demonstrated that you have no knowledge, is what makes it stupid.
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How is it stupid?
It is stupid because the statement made had been:
it's completely impractical to take a long trip [with an EV] and there is no solution even proposed.
The person responding said "I've done it many times." Experience beats speculation.
I bet you needed an app to help navigate your way from charger to charger.
Using an app does not make it "completely impractical"?
Re: Can't afford a 50 thousand dollar car (Score:2)
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This is trip that takes 3 days, 7 stops total with 2 overnight stays, with 20 gas stations withing a mile of my destination.
Or you could take a plane and be there the same day. Then it really doesn't matter if your car is ICE or an EV, because you'll be leaving it at home.
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Poppycock. (Score:2)
What utter drivel.
The 55mph speed limit was introduced during the 1973 oil crisis specifically to reduce gasoline consumption during a time where there were lines for gasoline in short supply. The crisis was exacerbated by the US predilection for large cars with big engines, and was a large factor in Detriot's fall from the wealthiest city in the US in 1960 to one of the poorest today. Asian and European manufacturers had been contending with oil supply issues ever since WWII, so had been built small cars
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Also, emission free is not the same as battery powered.
Re: Can't afford a 50 thousand dollar car (Score:2)
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If you didn't know better, you might think they are trying to create this situation to promote some other agenda.
Why is it hard for you to believe that this is for exactly the stated agenda, reducing and eventually eliminating carbon emissions from transportation?
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Because when the government is involved there's always someone with money "sitting behind them" making sure that the politician's agenda at least aligns with theirs. I hate that historical observations have made me such a cynical bastard.
And what's your evidence for that claim? Real evidence, not just cynicism.
Obviously, lobbyists exist, and they want to push their agendas. But there are lobbyists pushing in every direction... you'd better believe the oil companies and traditional ICEV car companies have been lobbying hard against this one, and they lost. Why? It could be because Tesla's lobbyists are better or richer, but it's actually more likely that UK politicians actually believe that climate change is a really big problem and they n
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Re: Can't afford a 50 thousand dollar car (Score:2)
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I don't have one because I don't think much if any change is necessary. You demand everyone cow-tow to *your* opinion and have no interest in any other, and moreover, haven't even attempted to try to convince me or anyone else. Instead want to bully the rest of us by legislative fiat to do what you want. To me, that is a far bigger issue than the one you are worried about.
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Post-Covid, new cars for 30k or less have all but disappeared.
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Not everyone can charge at home.
Streets like this [google.com] or like this [google.com] are not uncommon in the UK towns and cities. How can you charge at home when there's a better-than-even chance you can't park outside your house, let alone stringing a cable across the pavement (sidewalk) or road.
The problem with EV enthusiasts/zealots is that they fail to fully appreciate that not everyone has the same use-case for their car, or that not everyone lives in the suburbs with a drive and/or garage, or that purchasing a new EV is be
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the problem with people ignorant of the EV world is that they think Pro-EV people have not thought of all these issues and are producing solutions (a sure sign people know of the issues).
Re:Can't afford a 50 thousand dollar car (Score:5, Insightful)
I have to ask - what do you mean by a viable concept for charging fast enough? There are numerous EVs on the market today (although I agree they are not at your price point of $30k or equivalent) that can gain around 200 winter miles of highway range in about 30 minutes. Sure you won't break any speed records on a trip, but if you *gasp* plan a trip so that you line up food and rest breaks with the need to charge, these vehicles make long trips very feasible.
It's not that it isn't feasible so much as EVs are less forgiving of reactive (instead of proactive) lifestyles.
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30K is the most I'm going to pay for a vehicle. End of story.
I have good news for you, a few models are below 30 k£ and several more within a couple thousand tolerance.
* Volkswagen e-up! 22470 £ https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/e... [volkswagen.co.uk]
* MG4EV 26995 £ https://www.mg.co.uk/offers-fi... [mg.co.uk]
* FIAT e500 28195 £ https://www.fiat.co.uk/configu... [fiat.co.uk]
* Renault ZOE 31195 £ https://www.renault.co.uk/elec... [renault.co.uk]
* Vauxhall Corsa Electric 32445 £ https://store.vauxhall.co.uk/s... [vauxhall.co.uk]
* Peugeot E-Style 32650 £ https://offers.peugeot.co.uk/c... [peugeot.co.uk]
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If that's your ceiling, you're not in the target market demo. And that's fine, but you also need to realize you are on the left end of the bell curve, where the auto manufacturers aren't necessarily interested in selling low-margin products.
That's down from the peak at the beginning of 2023, and flat with 2022. To get the average back to your $30k, you have to go back to 2012. This means that by far, the majority of auto buyers out there are fine with spending 150% of your maximum. And that's who auto [coxautoinc.com]
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Also, which manufacturer cut their prices the most in 2023, according to that same link? Tesla.
Seems like economies of scale may end up scaling better with EVs, once they are manufactured at scale, which Tesla is now doing.
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And that's your choice. And I'll stand by your ability to allocate resources where you feel they will benefit you most.
I just ask that you realize you are an edge case, and that no manufacturer is going to cater specifically to your needs. And if you're ok with that, bully for you. That's how capitalism is supposed to work.
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There's already many EVs in the 30k range, and there'll be many more by 2035.
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Re: Can't afford a 50 thousand dollar car (Score:2)
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Why pay for a vehicle? If you are scrapping an old and inefficient petrol (yes UK) car and switching to an EV, what you save in cost of petrol (expensive in UK) can pay for the loan to get the EV.
it's a start (Score:3, Interesting)
While transportation is the largest contributor to emissions in the UK, I can't help but wonder how much simpler it would have been to shutdown BP Plc and others instead of micromanaging consumer products. Especially given that cars remain on the road for many years and it's going to take decades for zero emissions regulations to put a dent in the total emissions.
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While transportation is the largest contributor to emissions in the UK.
It's about 30Mt/yr. Electricity (some used for transport) is about 70, domestic (heating and electricity, but mostly gas) is about 55. See " 2022 UK greenhouse gas emissions, provisional figures"
uhhhwhat? (Score:2)
"Carbon dioxide emissions from this sector [Energy] are provisionally estimated to be 82.2 Mt in 2022"
"Following on from this, in 2022, all restrictions were removed, resulting in consecutive years of increasing territorial carbon dioxide emissions from the transport sector to 112.5 Mt"
"In 2022 transport accounted for 34.0% of all territorial carbon dioxide emissions,"
The quotes above are from "2022 UK greenhouse gas emissions, provisional figures". I try to comment based on a cursory Google search, if I go
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The three largest sources of electricity in the UK are currently natural gas, renewables, and nuclear. The majority of new capacity added in 2023 was from renewables and natural gas. The goal is to be carbon-free by 2035.
Not only are plug-in electric vehicles in the UK significantly cleaner than combustion vehicles today, but they will become cleaner over their lifetime due to improvements to the UK electric grid. Meanwhile, a combustion vehicle is only as clean as the day that their engines are broken i
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I've read figures for that, and 50k miles takes two things:
1. Looking at the dirtiest EVs in production, and ignoring that yes, their emissions can be cleaned up quite a bit. For a simple example, replacing the coal/natural gas supplying electricity to the facility(including intermediate materials production) and replacing it with solar. Also applies to ICE cars as well, I will admit.
2. Assuming electricity supply on the nastier side of normal.
The figures I'm seeing are 28-68k to break even, so 50k is d
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Re:it's a start (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd love to know why incremental progress isn't ever good enough, and it has to be an all-or-nothing solution for the denial crowd to not shit all over it.
Incremental improvement is still improvement, and enough increments delay "the point of no return" just a little bit more, buying us further time to make more incremental improvements unless some kind of "Eureka!!" development comes along.
This isn't a hard concept, and arguments against making incremental improvements where possible are quintessentially bad faith arguments.
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I feel like asking for 30+ years then only getting incremental progress recently has kind of been a shitty deal. Don't ask for a pay on the back from me, this whole problem has been handled badly for decades and any progress made has been because people have been dragged kicking and screaming to this point.
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Too bad the UK can't run lorries and trains on your bullshit.
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You remind me of the bureaucrats who privatised UK's train system. Though that is an insult to them. As ignorant as they were about basics of UK's train systems leading to the shitshow that privatization ended up being, they were exceedingly informed geniuses compared to your understanding of UK's logistics.
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I asked my wife to quit smoking, which basically makes me the same as Hitler.
Makes Sense (Score:5, Insightful)
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the temperature swings from winter to summer
I don't know about summer, but the cold winter temperature problem has largely been solved [pinimg.com].
Re:Makes Sense (Score:4, Informative)
Norway has already solved all that. Long distances, -30 degrees. They have electric everything now - haulage, ferries, light aircraft.
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Good Luck UK. US won't even come close to that... (Score:4, Insightful)
With all the Biden money passed for national chargers, the first one was only just installed like a month or so ago.
If they were to try to keep to the original schedule, they'd have to start today and install about 450 new chargers a day to reach the intended goal.
That's just one problem here....our infrastructure isn't ready yet either...and none of this touches upon the recent showings of lack of customer interest in EVs here that is starting to raise it's head.
Video from CNBC about US govt. needing to back off ambitious goals. [youtu.be]
US EV sales slowing and cars piling up on dealer lots [youtu.be]
Problems charging EVs in Los Angeles, most charging stations in the US [youtu.be]
Relax (Score:2)
They say that now, there's still plenty of time to backpedal 'til 35 if they find out that it's impossible or just too expensive, or not good for the industry or... some other reason.
But it really looks good on paper now. Hey, how about wanting a balanced budget by, say, 2030? You win the next elections and then you can still just say "oh hey, was just a joke".
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The Budget they passed a couple of months ago only made sense if they are going to be voted out this year, it was all "gifts today, forget about tomorrow".
Finally a sane statement from the UK (Score:2)
The UK government has had the singular purpose of enacting policy that is different from the EU since Brexit. This resulted in some truly stupid decisions, like setting a deadline of 2030 which was completely out of step with industry, EU mandates, city mandates, and all mandates in other countries. If you want to not have cars on sale, being different than a market of 450million people just for the sake of being different is a good first step to fucking yourself.
Glad to see they saw some sense.
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I'd make the point that if that were a concern, the right hand steering issue would have been reversed a long time ago.
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Why? Right hand steering makes up 35% of the world's population. Just because Europe has Left hand steering doesn't make the UK out of step with the world, especially given there are precisely zero trends globally to standardise this, and every car maker already offers right hand steering cars.
Your example is the exact opposite of a regulation to be concerned about, quite unlike banning ICE cars 5 years before anyone else including the large trading block from which most of your cars get imported.
Re: Finally a sane statement from the UK (Score:2)
Tell that to Norway.
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Why? What does Norway have to do with the EU? And Norway has no current plan in place to ban ICE vehicles. They may have a goal to have all new cars emissions free by 2025, but they are achieving that through incentives and tax breaks, quite the opposite of fucking themselves with an unachievable law.
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Should be doing it in 2025 like Norway (Score:2, Interesting)
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Any company that hasn't developed an electric car by now deserves to go bankrupt.
A number of companies scaled down EV production due to low demand [thedrive.com]. So if anything, they are more likely to go bankrupt as the result of over-producing electric cars that nobody wants.
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How much of the "low demand" is because EVs cost too much compared to their non-EV counterparts? How much is just the nature of the US market compared to other countries where consumer desire for EVs is higher? (countries where people don't drive long distances on a regular basis) And how much is because the EVs these companies are making are not the EVs consumers actually want?
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The infrastructure is vital (Score:3)
I've no doubt that this will happen. There's a similar mandate in the EU and most cars sold in the UK are built for the European market, with RHD modifications.
So the manufacturers are gearing up for this, and to put it simply, they will simply phase out non-EVs as we approach the deadline. I believe R&D on petrol and diesel drivetrains has already stopped.
European and Asian manufacturers are well on their way to having a wide range of models covering most needs with the exception of estate cars (wagons). The American manufacturers aren't there yet, but Tesla remains reasonably popular and it looks like Ford of Europe will be using VAG chassis to manufacturer the smaller vehicles that are popular in the UK and Europe.
Cost will come down over time as electric drivetrains become more established and manufacturers achieve economies of scale. And anyway, most customers lease or pseudo-lease (PCP) their car anyway. No-one is shelling out £50k for a car.
The problem is charging infrastructure mainly. I understand that motorway charging points as well as those on long-distance A roads are increasing exponentially, and that's great for the infrequent road trips that most of us will go on. But a large proportion of the population live in flats or houses with no off street parking. You can't solve the problem of off street parking, so they need to ramp up some alternative solution such as chargers stored in lamp-posts.
Now to Invent a Zero Emissions Car to Cash In! (Score:2)
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Brake dust is far less in an EV as you rarely use the brakes. So much so that rusted brake disks are more of an issue for EV drivers which is why drum brakes are making a comeback in some EVs.
There has never been any evidence that tire wear is greater in an EV either as tires are made to suit the vehicle. Why would a heavy ICE car produce less tire wear than an EV of the same weight?
Let me fix that for you (Score:3)
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That's not how it works in the UK. The next government will find it hard to roll this back. Doing so will be admitting failure.
It would also damage the economy. A lot of money has been invested on the basis that fossil car sales are ending, and demand for things like charging infrastructure is guaranteed to rise quickly.
The momentum is already considerable. At this point it's easier to go with it than you try to turn the ship around.
Powered by (Score:2)
Unicorn Fart?
Then pushed to 2040 in 2030 (Score:2)
The date for all new petrol and diesel cars to be banned was originally set for 2030. However, in September, Prime Minister Rishi Sunak pushed this date back to 2035. The government says this is giving consumers more time to make the switch and deal with the UK's charging infrastructure.
Wanna bet the same reason would be used before 2030 to push it back another 5 years?
The Market/Citizenry Will Determine (Score:2)
Governments are transitory. One ideology can be replaced with a different ideology in a single vote. Don't count on any of these EV dreams actually happening.
2035 will become 2040... (Score:2)
Successive UK governments for the past 3 decades have a torrid track record on large infrastructure projects, just look at the embarrassing high speed rail project - well over budget, massively delayed and geographic coverage cut by over 50%.
The only thing which will drive this forward faster (excuse the pun), is going to be private enterprise and public will.
Private enterprise is likely reluctant to invest until greater public adoption of EV's happen and if they don't invest, then public adoption will be i
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So the same number of hallucinations, just with higher resolution pics?
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And probably much cheaper.
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Since this is the government, I'd bet against that. It will cost the same, but they'll divert any extra money to "other important things," namely, whoever's hand it out for graft and corruption this week. (And then raise taxes to boot.)
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There'd be a lot less hot air that way.
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So, it will be trained on orwell books to make it more like the original?
Unintentionally hilarious! (Score:2)
We can have your big black cock when [someone] pries it out of your cold, dead hands?
So you plan on beating your big black cock until you die from excess masturbation? Or are you not black and you plan on tugging someone else's cock until you literally die?