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Dell Workers Can Stay Remote - But They're Not Going to Get Promoted (yahoo.com) 96

"Dell's strict new RTO mandate excludes fully remote workers from promotion," reports Business Insider.

The site calls it "one of the most abrupt changes to remote work policies," noting that Dell "has had a hybrid working culture in place for more than a decade — long before the pandemic struck." "Dell cared about the work, not the location," a senior employee at Dell who's worked remotely for more than a decade, told Business Insider last month. "I would say 10% to 15% of every team was remote." That flexibility has enabled staff to sustain their careers in the face of major life changes, several employees told BI. It has also helped Dell to be placed on the "Best Place to Work for Disability Equality Index" since 2018. But in February Dell introduced a strict return-to-office mandate, with punitive measures for those who want to stay at home.

Under the new policy, staff were told that from May almost all will be classified as either "hybrid," or "remote." Hybrid workers will be required to come into an "approved" office at least 39 days a quarter — the equivalent of about three days a week, internal documents seen by BI show. If they want to keep working from home, staff can opt to go fully remote. But that option has a downside: fully remote workers will not be considered for promotion, or be able to change roles.

Workers have said Dell's approach might be intended to lower headcount without having to pay severance by inducing some employees to quit. But reached by Business Insider for a comment, Dell defended their approach as instead "critical to drive innovation and value differentiation."

But Professor Cary Cooper, an organizational psychologist and cofounder of the National Forum for Health and Wellbeing at work, tells the site Dell could be following a "pack mentality" among tech companies — or reacting to a sluggish world economy. "Senior execs somehow think that people in the office are more productive than at home, even though there's no evidence to back that up."

Business Insider added that Dell's approach "differs from founder and CEO Michael Dell's previous support for remote workers," who famously said "If you are counting on forced hours spent in a traditional office to create collaboration and provide a feeling of belonging within your organization, you're doing it wrong."
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Dell Workers Can Stay Remote - But They're Not Going to Get Promoted

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  • Self-defeating (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Baron_Yam ( 643147 ) on Sunday March 17, 2024 @03:56PM (#64322887)

    Unless this is a stealth 'cuts by attrition' program, they're just ensuring that as employees are ready for promotion that they go to competitors to continue their careers. This will cost the company in the long run.

    • I would say this aligns quite well with the quality output Dell is going for...
    • Clearly meant to be a staff reduction by another name. Why is anyone even asking the question? They aren’t making the tiniest effort to provide even the tiniest logical reason.

      Look, the hard truth is that most (not all) fully-remote workers are entirely fungible. For the few that are truly critical to core operations and difficult-to-replace, exceptions will be quietly made.
      • Look, the hard truth is that most (not all) fully-remote workers are entirely fungible.

        And in-office employees aren't equally fungible? Why?

        It's a serious question. If your reason is something vague like "personal connection", then basically you are saying "because the remote worker doesn't provide pleasant chit chat, eye candy, or some other non-work perk to the supervisor, they are less valuable."

        • A fair question. The real answer is something that no manager or HR rep would ever directly acknowledge. Like it or not, humans are a social species, and thus social interactions are assigned value. Online communications are (almost) never valued as highly, and it's probably going to stay that way until we evolve into a different species. A person who can do their job AND show up in person? They're gonna be valued more than a person who can do the same job remotely. I'm not implying that (remote=0). Just th
      • True. The only workers who aren't fungible are people who have become indispensable. People are only indispensable if they are the only ones who know a system well enough to keep it working, and it's not practical to teach anyone else. The only systems like that are complex systems, for which the effort and expense that goes into keeping the system running as it currently exists should by rights be going into making the system less complex, but isn't.

        Because there's no incentive to. The rational thing f

        • The last time I was indispensable, I quit. It's good for job security but bad for advancement opportunities.

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Indeed. Like any general anti-employee-crap. People will also remember. Well, I guess Dell is satisfied with only getting and keeping workers that have no other options. Stupid.

      But having had some experiences (or maybe more "run-ins") with some economics graduates recently, they really do not get it. One even tried to get me to work at the office by deception and claiming it was meetings, when it was not. (Smaller side job, letter of resignation is written and I am looking forward to delivering it before th

    • What they'd be telling me is that remote workers aren't as valued. And maybe, as an employee, that would cause me to be tempted to "take them down from inside". Start selling stuff that shouldn't be sold, all sorts of corrupt things.

    • Big dumb companies racing to the bottom of mediocrity and pushing away high performance employees. This is straight out of the 1980's all over again and it's stupid.
      • pushing away high performance employees.

        Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

        "High performance garbage" in the large majority of cases. Being remote promotes non-delivery and has a serious impact on team focus and cohesion. Pointing to the outliers who are capable of self-management and comitted to delivery is disengenious.

        Humans are fracking lazy. All the whining about having to come back in to the office is actually an admission of this.

    • by khchung ( 462899 )

      Unless this is a stealth 'cuts by attrition' program

      Of course that's exactly what this is.

    • Re:Self-defeating (Score:4, Interesting)

      by niftydude ( 1745144 ) on Sunday March 17, 2024 @07:51PM (#64323321)
      Yeah - stealth cuts by attrition is never good for companies. The people able to find jobs leave, and your staff becomes packed with types of people unable to find alternative employment.

      Gets how successful companies are when their staff becomes 100% people no one else is willing to hire?
    • Unless this is a stealth 'cuts by attrition' program, they're just ensuring that as employees are ready for promotion that they go to competitors to continue their careers. This will cost the company in the long run.

      And your problem with this approach by Dell is?

      Honestly, the seriously smart people at Dell that RTO are learning to play the game and licking their chops for promotions to open that the WFH crowd is excluded from.

      I know if I were still in the workforce that's how I would play the game.

      Srsly, if you ever watched the movie North Dallas Forty you might draw the parallel between WFH crowd and the nonconformist Phil Elliot (Nick Nolte) character. The smart folks are like the Seth Maxwell (Mac Davis) character,

    • So you're implying that companies are being idiotic to ask employees to come to the office for work? You don't think there are actual valid reasons behind back-to-the-office for many types of works/employees? Do you also think that this is all driven by a cabal of "managers" who feel less empowered due to remote employees? Another trope is that "I" am more productive at home therefore so is everyone and all types of jobs.

      Why would a business add real-estate and related costs if they can avoid that?

      • I think there are social types and introverts and most of them may never really understand each other. It seems like the social types move up by being social and the introverts move up by actually learning and being good at their job, but that's just me. The good news is that there are many companies out there that value introverts.
    • Unless this is a stealth 'cuts by attrition' program, they're just ensuring that as employees are ready for promotion that they go to competitors to continue their careers. This will cost the company in the long run.

      I worked at Dell for many years. Here's the secret: getting promoted was a dead end there anyway. They hire you out of college, or young, and try to convert you into some suit wearing infant who makes a lot of slideware. You become unhireable and worthless on the market. Every single person I'

  • by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Sunday March 17, 2024 @04:08PM (#64322929)

    'Workers have said Dell's approach might be intended to lower headcount without having to pay severance by inducing some employees to quit. But reached by Business Insider for a comment, Dell defended their approach as instead "critical to drive innovation and value differentiation."'

    Well, what did you expect them to say? Would you really expect an executive to admit "we're hoping people will quit so we don't have to deal with the cost of laying them off"?

    'Business Insider added that Dell's approach "differs from founder and CEO Michael Dell's previous support for remote workers," who famously said "If you are counting on forced hours spent in a traditional office to create collaboration and provide a feeling of belonging within your organization, you're doing it wrong."'

    From what I've seen, given that our department has a lot of Dell equipment and runs into a lot of problems with that equipment - the company's been "doing it wrong" for a number of years now.

    • Re:Okay then (Score:5, Insightful)

      by dgatwood ( 11270 ) on Sunday March 17, 2024 @05:49PM (#64323103) Homepage Journal

      'Workers have said Dell's approach might be intended to lower headcount without having to pay severance by inducing some employees to quit. But reached by Business Insider for a comment, Dell defended their approach as instead "critical to drive innovation and value differentiation."'

      Well, what did you expect them to say? Would you really expect an executive to admit "we're hoping people will quit so we don't have to deal with the cost of laying them off"?

      I certainly wouldn't expect an executive to admit "We're hoping older employees that have been around longer will quit so that we can replace them with lower-level remote workers in cheaper geographical locations for less money." But that's basically how I would interpret this policy. It's age discrimination wrapped in the clothing of a remote work policy.

      • I certainly wouldn't expect an executive to admit "We're hoping older employees that have been around longer will quit

        If that's their unspoken intent, they are doing it wrong. It's the older workers that are less likely to care about future promotions, this will stay remote. Younger workers will more likely comply or quit -- and the best one will quit.

        This move is likely massively counterproductive. But no doubt it strokes some CxO's ego who likes to see minions in the office.

      • This is very much discriminatory against people with families, mortgages, and disabilities.

        Someone at a former employer left to go TO Dell because they had medical issues and said former employer was stuck in the 1980s. damn.

  • I wonder if this could be challenged in state courts, particularly by an employee living in a state with strong labor protection laws.

    • a state with strong labor protection laws.

      The only state with labor protection laws is Montana.

    • Challenged on what basis?

      Promotion: new job. Guess what? New job comes with new requirements, one of which is showing up in an office.

      It's hardly the state's business or problem if someone doesn't meet job requirements.

      • One possible argument would be 'unfairly changing promotion criteria to include irrelevant behaviors'. The plaintiff would have to prove to the jury that 'forced commuting to the office' is 'irrelevant', and that this change/new policy is "arbitrary and capricious".

        • What's "unfair" about it?

          • I think you could argue it's capricious. If the job can be done on-site or remotely, but only on-site would be eligible for promotion, that could be argued as "unfair evaluation criteria" not related to actual job performance.

            • All they have to do is write into the job description a duty that requires being onsite for some reason. Wouldn't be hard to do.

              "Physically inspect XYZ for issues 3x/week" or whatever.

              • But that's not what they did. And if you're developing software for virtualized server containers, 'physical inspection' would be a bit hard to argue.

                • 3x, week, employee is required to verify the stapler at his assigned desk has staples in it, and turn in a validation form to his supervisor's desk.

      • I don't know about your country, in mine, placing something as a requirement for a job that is irrelevant may be challengeable. Like, say, requiring the ability to speak a certain language when that language has no relevance to the job.

        If it's not relevant to the job to drag your cadaver to a certain place in space, it may well be challengeable.

  • by sinij ( 911942 ) on Sunday March 17, 2024 @04:52PM (#64323009)
    So you allow everyone but social climbers to work from home, making office culture to be a spiders in a jar.
    • With a hint of luck, the backstabbing cesspool should not only keep these insufferable brownnosers busy so they can't go on your nerves, it should also ensure that the stress level causes a few early heart attack related deaths.

      Don't you just love win-win situations?

  • I guess that's why I get an email every 30-60 days from someone introducing me as their "New Dell Rep" (tm) because the old salesbro is gone. It's been this way for nearly 20 years. The turnover is astounding.

    I think the worst part is...I haven't ordered a goddamned thing from Dell since I randomly decided to get some sort of tablet-like device circa 2003. That queued up the onslaught of "do you need some printer ink?" for decades.
    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      That is one of the nice things with the GDPR: You just send them a request to delete your address if you have not done any business with them for a while. They _will_ do that because not doing it can get very expensive. Have done it only once with a shop that kept maining me a lot of stuff on paper. Worked like a charm. Emails I just filter.

  • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Sunday March 17, 2024 @05:08PM (#64323035)

    Del does not realize what a deal they are offering here.

    Not only do you get to work fully remote, but you are completely removed from the hassle of the politics of promotion!

    Knowing you will never have a promotion means you can basically just ignore any work around performance reviews, and just enjoy yearly COLA adjustments with no extra effort working towards a possible promotion.

    What a stress-free way to work!

    And if at any time you want a "promotion" you simply get a new job with higher pay (as another poster already noted, a lot of people will probably go that route).

    • Knowing you will never have a promotion means you can basically just ignore any work around performance reviews

      Huh? What do performance reviews have to do with promotions. Performance reviews are for yearly bonuses. Brownnosing is for promotions. Have you ever had a job?

    • I work remotely often - been doing it for years before Covid was a thing.

      With that said, in Dell's case, I think someone who is just a few years from retirement and is not expecting any further promotions before retirement will be happy to coast while working remotely. Those will presumably be very experienced staff who have worked in Dell or other related orgs for many many years, and are close to earning the most they would be earning anyway.

    • I think companies have long since stopped offering anything called "COLA". That's because there's an implication that it should somehow track against inflation. Most of them call the annual process something like "merit".

      They also don't suggest that any increase is guaranteed. Whether one is provided is not based on cost of living, but on company profitability, the state of worker retention, and competitiveness in retaining top people.

      Or... promotions. The one way to generally ensure you see an upwards chan

  • Am I the only person that initially read this as, "Deli Workers Can Stay Remote"?! I thought we entered a new Work From Home paradigm, and I was all for it.

  • No promotions?

    Well then, guess who's going to be doing as little work as possible for as long as they can, while quietly lining up another job?

    ALL of your workers, that's who.

  • by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Sunday March 17, 2024 @07:04PM (#64323255)
    And haven't done so in 20 years. The only way anyone ever gets ahead in a company as they go to another company and spend a few years there and come back with some experience for a promotion
  • by Anonymous Coward

    Not being in the office for hallway conversations, lunches, coffee breaks, brainstorming before meetings, etc. has always been a career risk everywhere. Gotta give Dell credit for honesty.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      I really don't have to give Dell credit for anything positive. Most of us saw the writing on the wall, Return To the Overlord mandates was backdoor firing. Once that was done, the layoffs started.

      If this is anything, it's testing the waters before RTO mandates are pushed.

  • But also, so they're going to fuck over their outside sales execs and outside sales engineers who were already full remote? WTF.
  • by engineerErrant ( 759650 ) on Sunday March 17, 2024 @10:04PM (#64323479)

    I've been in the engineering biz for 25 years, had a highly successful salary progression, and have never once been "promoted." Every advancement has come through switching jobs, which is easy to do if you're good at what you do. Seriously, I'm what some of you might call old, and I think the concept of "promotion" is for gullible old people. Screw the gold watch; it's a stupid mirage.

    I agree with a previous poster that this is a fantastic development, and allows Dell employees to trade a phantom Boomer promise that will never materialize for real, major benefit right now. Which means it won't last long once the Dell execs figure out

    • by JustNiz ( 692889 )

      Totally agree with this. I've been in engineering more like 40 years and my experience is exactly the same. It took me ages to think beyond the brainwashing and get to a high enough position across multiple companies to confirm my suspicions, but I did. Here's the dirty truth:
      Unless you're prepared to spend decades working at the same company (and most companies dont even last that long anymore), the promise of any real career growth that most companies tell you about when they hire you is all just a giant

    • Promotions happen when you switch jobs.

  • Kissing Dell ass is an in-person event. There will be no virtual ass kissing at Dell.

  • Promotion while working @ home, not likely, ever... What would make you think you would ever get promoted ? IF you got promoted to manager, that would mean going into work. Some bosses like to see people to interact with and judge their abilities.
    • Care to point out how they get to interact and judge the abilities of new hires for those management positions when everyone decides that going to the office isn't really worth it?

      Why bother kissing someone's ass when a promotion is just an application, a hiring interview and a "fuck you, boss, I found something new, more of money, less of YOU" away?

      • Working from home means you're a faceless employee, another # to the company. And yes, not much chance to impress management.
  • So they'd rather promote someone doing an OK job but showing their face than someone doing an awesome job but from home? Well, that's one way to end up with some seriously bad management in a few years, not that the current ones sound that great if this was deemed a good idea.
    • Anyone who worked longer than 5 years knows two things: First, "real" promotions (unlike fake ones where you get a load of new work with no extra pay or the power to actually execute what you need to do) don't happen. And second, real changes in payment (unlike the token 50 bucks more for being put on the aforementioned ejector seat with full responsibility but no decision power) happen when you switch jobs.

      Why the fuck would anyone be worried about not being promoted? If you want a promotion, brush up your

  • Then workers will get promotions by jumping ship.

    Why does manglement has to always be this brain-dead?

  • What company still promotes its workers? Who does that? That's a discrimination lawsuit waiting to happen. Because, why did you promote HIM and not me? Is it because I is black? Why Kevin and not Max? Worse, why Kevin and not Maxine?

    What company wants to navigate that minefield? It's far easier to just hire someone new for a leader position. For multiple reasons. First, the one stated above. This is someone who was really, really qualified, independent of their race, gender, sexual preference, religion or c

    • Nope. Not sure that exists. Along with pulling up by bootstraps and land of the free. One truth and 110%. And scientology.

    • by RMH101 ( 636144 )
      I mean, within MS promotions happen all the time. Not that it's particularly easy, you have to demonstrate something over all the other smart people around you, but it definitely happens, it's encouraged and managers who have staff successfully promoted are rewarded for career development and staff retention. Admittedly, past a certain point, getting promoted puts a bit of a target on your back as expectations are higher, and those that don't exceed expectations don't tend to stay employed for long, but i
  • Long ago Dell would do things like have mandatory tech support training all day Saturday and then hand out $100 bills to the attendees at the end. Everyone would leave talking about what great place Dell was to work. :/ (Tech support people where obvs not great a math)

    Dell once had Ph.D. psychiatrists hired specifically to maintain this sort low-cost pro-Dell mentality. That all ended a couple of years ago and now it looks like they have gone from tricking people into the culture to trying to force th

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