Dell Workers Can Stay Remote - But They're Not Going to Get Promoted (yahoo.com) 96
"Dell's strict new RTO mandate excludes fully remote workers from promotion," reports Business Insider.
The site calls it "one of the most abrupt changes to remote work policies," noting that Dell "has had a hybrid working culture in place for more than a decade — long before the pandemic struck." "Dell cared about the work, not the location," a senior employee at Dell who's worked remotely for more than a decade, told Business Insider last month. "I would say 10% to 15% of every team was remote." That flexibility has enabled staff to sustain their careers in the face of major life changes, several employees told BI. It has also helped Dell to be placed on the "Best Place to Work for Disability Equality Index" since 2018. But in February Dell introduced a strict return-to-office mandate, with punitive measures for those who want to stay at home.
Under the new policy, staff were told that from May almost all will be classified as either "hybrid," or "remote." Hybrid workers will be required to come into an "approved" office at least 39 days a quarter — the equivalent of about three days a week, internal documents seen by BI show. If they want to keep working from home, staff can opt to go fully remote. But that option has a downside: fully remote workers will not be considered for promotion, or be able to change roles.
Workers have said Dell's approach might be intended to lower headcount without having to pay severance by inducing some employees to quit. But reached by Business Insider for a comment, Dell defended their approach as instead "critical to drive innovation and value differentiation."
But Professor Cary Cooper, an organizational psychologist and cofounder of the National Forum for Health and Wellbeing at work, tells the site Dell could be following a "pack mentality" among tech companies — or reacting to a sluggish world economy. "Senior execs somehow think that people in the office are more productive than at home, even though there's no evidence to back that up."
Business Insider added that Dell's approach "differs from founder and CEO Michael Dell's previous support for remote workers," who famously said "If you are counting on forced hours spent in a traditional office to create collaboration and provide a feeling of belonging within your organization, you're doing it wrong."
The site calls it "one of the most abrupt changes to remote work policies," noting that Dell "has had a hybrid working culture in place for more than a decade — long before the pandemic struck." "Dell cared about the work, not the location," a senior employee at Dell who's worked remotely for more than a decade, told Business Insider last month. "I would say 10% to 15% of every team was remote." That flexibility has enabled staff to sustain their careers in the face of major life changes, several employees told BI. It has also helped Dell to be placed on the "Best Place to Work for Disability Equality Index" since 2018. But in February Dell introduced a strict return-to-office mandate, with punitive measures for those who want to stay at home.
Under the new policy, staff were told that from May almost all will be classified as either "hybrid," or "remote." Hybrid workers will be required to come into an "approved" office at least 39 days a quarter — the equivalent of about three days a week, internal documents seen by BI show. If they want to keep working from home, staff can opt to go fully remote. But that option has a downside: fully remote workers will not be considered for promotion, or be able to change roles.
Workers have said Dell's approach might be intended to lower headcount without having to pay severance by inducing some employees to quit. But reached by Business Insider for a comment, Dell defended their approach as instead "critical to drive innovation and value differentiation."
But Professor Cary Cooper, an organizational psychologist and cofounder of the National Forum for Health and Wellbeing at work, tells the site Dell could be following a "pack mentality" among tech companies — or reacting to a sluggish world economy. "Senior execs somehow think that people in the office are more productive than at home, even though there's no evidence to back that up."
Business Insider added that Dell's approach "differs from founder and CEO Michael Dell's previous support for remote workers," who famously said "If you are counting on forced hours spent in a traditional office to create collaboration and provide a feeling of belonging within your organization, you're doing it wrong."
Self-defeating (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless this is a stealth 'cuts by attrition' program, they're just ensuring that as employees are ready for promotion that they go to competitors to continue their careers. This will cost the company in the long run.
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The worst "slackers" are those who are able to conceal it while also meeting work goals. Right?
How dare they not deliver themselves unto the office to have ever-more productivity squeezed out of them?!?
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The worst "slackers" are those who are able to conceal it while also meeting work goals. Right?
No. It's those who do some work so they can say they're doing work, but make excuses why other work isn't getting done such as not being able to communicate with other people who don't get back to them. They're the ones you can't reliably contact and who make excuses why that happens. These are the type who always find some excuse for anything.
Although he didnt' say it, Franklin's misattributed quote still stand
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Look, the hard truth is that most (not all) fully-remote workers are entirely fungible. For the few that are truly critical to core operations and difficult-to-replace, exceptions will be quietly made.
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Look, the hard truth is that most (not all) fully-remote workers are entirely fungible.
And in-office employees aren't equally fungible? Why?
It's a serious question. If your reason is something vague like "personal connection", then basically you are saying "because the remote worker doesn't provide pleasant chit chat, eye candy, or some other non-work perk to the supervisor, they are less valuable."
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True. The only workers who aren't fungible are people who have become indispensable. People are only indispensable if they are the only ones who know a system well enough to keep it working, and it's not practical to teach anyone else. The only systems like that are complex systems, for which the effort and expense that goes into keeping the system running as it currently exists should by rights be going into making the system less complex, but isn't.
Because there's no incentive to. The rational thing f
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The last time I was indispensable, I quit. It's good for job security but bad for advancement opportunities.
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Indeed. Like any general anti-employee-crap. People will also remember. Well, I guess Dell is satisfied with only getting and keeping workers that have no other options. Stupid.
But having had some experiences (or maybe more "run-ins") with some economics graduates recently, they really do not get it. One even tried to get me to work at the office by deception and claiming it was meetings, when it was not. (Smaller side job, letter of resignation is written and I am looking forward to delivering it before th
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What they'd be telling me is that remote workers aren't as valued. And maybe, as an employee, that would cause me to be tempted to "take them down from inside". Start selling stuff that shouldn't be sold, all sorts of corrupt things.
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"If employees can't follow the company's rules, then perhaps the company is better off without them. "
If the company's rules do not add value to the company, then it is certain than company would be better off without them. The absolute best case for this policy is that RTO 100% correlates with merit-based promotion you were going to do anyway, so you might as well not not block promotion based in WFH. Realistically, some amount of people who would would merit a promotion will now be blocked, meaning you ar
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pushing away high performance employees.
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha
"High performance garbage" in the large majority of cases. Being remote promotes non-delivery and has a serious impact on team focus and cohesion. Pointing to the outliers who are capable of self-management and comitted to delivery is disengenious.
Humans are fracking lazy. All the whining about having to come back in to the office is actually an admission of this.
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Unless this is a stealth 'cuts by attrition' program
Of course that's exactly what this is.
Re:Self-defeating (Score:4, Interesting)
Gets how successful companies are when their staff becomes 100% people no one else is willing to hire?
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Unless this is a stealth 'cuts by attrition' program, they're just ensuring that as employees are ready for promotion that they go to competitors to continue their careers. This will cost the company in the long run.
And your problem with this approach by Dell is?
Honestly, the seriously smart people at Dell that RTO are learning to play the game and licking their chops for promotions to open that the WFH crowd is excluded from.
I know if I were still in the workforce that's how I would play the game.
Srsly, if you ever watched the movie North Dallas Forty you might draw the parallel between WFH crowd and the nonconformist Phil Elliot (Nick Nolte) character. The smart folks are like the Seth Maxwell (Mac Davis) character,
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So you're implying that companies are being idiotic to ask employees to come to the office for work? You don't think there are actual valid reasons behind back-to-the-office for many types of works/employees? Do you also think that this is all driven by a cabal of "managers" who feel less empowered due to remote employees? Another trope is that "I" am more productive at home therefore so is everyone and all types of jobs.
Why would a business add real-estate and related costs if they can avoid that?
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Unless this is a stealth 'cuts by attrition' program, they're just ensuring that as employees are ready for promotion that they go to competitors to continue their careers. This will cost the company in the long run.
I worked at Dell for many years. Here's the secret: getting promoted was a dead end there anyway. They hire you out of college, or young, and try to convert you into some suit wearing infant who makes a lot of slideware. You become unhireable and worthless on the market. Every single person I'
Okay then (Score:3)
'Workers have said Dell's approach might be intended to lower headcount without having to pay severance by inducing some employees to quit. But reached by Business Insider for a comment, Dell defended their approach as instead "critical to drive innovation and value differentiation."'
Well, what did you expect them to say? Would you really expect an executive to admit "we're hoping people will quit so we don't have to deal with the cost of laying them off"?
'Business Insider added that Dell's approach "differs from founder and CEO Michael Dell's previous support for remote workers," who famously said "If you are counting on forced hours spent in a traditional office to create collaboration and provide a feeling of belonging within your organization, you're doing it wrong."'
From what I've seen, given that our department has a lot of Dell equipment and runs into a lot of problems with that equipment - the company's been "doing it wrong" for a number of years now.
Re:Okay then (Score:5, Insightful)
'Workers have said Dell's approach might be intended to lower headcount without having to pay severance by inducing some employees to quit. But reached by Business Insider for a comment, Dell defended their approach as instead "critical to drive innovation and value differentiation."'
Well, what did you expect them to say? Would you really expect an executive to admit "we're hoping people will quit so we don't have to deal with the cost of laying them off"?
I certainly wouldn't expect an executive to admit "We're hoping older employees that have been around longer will quit so that we can replace them with lower-level remote workers in cheaper geographical locations for less money." But that's basically how I would interpret this policy. It's age discrimination wrapped in the clothing of a remote work policy.
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I certainly wouldn't expect an executive to admit "We're hoping older employees that have been around longer will quit
If that's their unspoken intent, they are doing it wrong. It's the older workers that are less likely to care about future promotions, this will stay remote. Younger workers will more likely comply or quit -- and the best one will quit.
This move is likely massively counterproductive. But no doubt it strokes some CxO's ego who likes to see minions in the office.
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This is very much discriminatory against people with families, mortgages, and disabilities.
Someone at a former employer left to go TO Dell because they had medical issues and said former employer was stuck in the 1980s. damn.
IANAL, but.... (Score:2)
I wonder if this could be challenged in state courts, particularly by an employee living in a state with strong labor protection laws.
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a state with strong labor protection laws.
The only state with labor protection laws is Montana.
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Challenged on what basis?
Promotion: new job. Guess what? New job comes with new requirements, one of which is showing up in an office.
It's hardly the state's business or problem if someone doesn't meet job requirements.
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One possible argument would be 'unfairly changing promotion criteria to include irrelevant behaviors'. The plaintiff would have to prove to the jury that 'forced commuting to the office' is 'irrelevant', and that this change/new policy is "arbitrary and capricious".
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What's "unfair" about it?
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I think you could argue it's capricious. If the job can be done on-site or remotely, but only on-site would be eligible for promotion, that could be argued as "unfair evaluation criteria" not related to actual job performance.
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All they have to do is write into the job description a duty that requires being onsite for some reason. Wouldn't be hard to do.
"Physically inspect XYZ for issues 3x/week" or whatever.
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But that's not what they did. And if you're developing software for virtualized server containers, 'physical inspection' would be a bit hard to argue.
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3x, week, employee is required to verify the stapler at his assigned desk has staples in it, and turn in a validation form to his supervisor's desk.
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I don't know about your country, in mine, placing something as a requirement for a job that is irrelevant may be challengeable. Like, say, requiring the ability to speak a certain language when that language has no relevance to the job.
If it's not relevant to the job to drag your cadaver to a certain place in space, it may well be challengeable.
Re:IANAL, but.... (Score:4, Informative)
For something like factory jobs, that'll remain the same, probably basically forever (or until automation/robotics fully takes over).
What's changed is that for office-type jobs, location typically doesn't truly matter (as many discovered during the pandemic). So why waste a bunch of travel time (or other inconveniences) each week if you can avoid it, and (in a lot of circumstances) end up being more productive/comfortable working remotely?
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>What's changed is that for some office-type jobs, location typically doesn't truly matter.
FTFY.
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For which ones does it matter, I wonder?
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I am mystified by this entire phenomenon - why is *putting on mustache wax every day* such a damn burden? That has been the norm for hundreds of years, why, suddenly, does a tiny niche minority find it a show-stopper?
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Yes, all those things plus the fact that there's no real reason to go somewhere to do a job that doesn't actually require you to go somewhere to do it.
Re: IANAL, but.... (Score:1)
Honest to goodness truth? It's because I don't give a shit about you or your company. At only 36 I've already earned enough money to semi-retire. The house is half paid off. There's 4-5 years of expenses covered in investments. All jobs I take at this point are about what they can do for me. Not the other way around. I have a beautiful house in a suburb with fiber Internet and an incredible home office. If you want me to come in then you're gonna have to pay me enough that it's worth the added stress and sl
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Honest to goodness truth? It's because I don't give a shit about you or your company. At only 36 I've already earned enough money to semi-retire. The house is half paid off. There's 4-5 years of expenses covered in investments. All jobs I take at this point are about what they can do for me. Not the other way around. I have a beautiful house in a suburb with fiber Internet and an incredible home office. If you want me to come in then you're gonna have to pay me enough that it's worth the added stress and sleep deprivation.
And there's no chance I'm gonna sell my house to live where the company is.
If this is your attitude, then why would you expect any consideration for the company towards you? If you are only there to extract as much money as you can mine out, then why shouldn't the company do everything in their power to exploit you to the max? And my extension all of their workers.
There is a middle way, neither nihilism nor self-sacrifice but somewhere in-between where there is benefit for both parties. Most adults will spend the majority of their adult lives at work, there is no reason for that e
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If the only thing stopping your job from being outsourced is the fact that you come into the office I have some bad news for you.
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Any job that can be outsourced has been outsourced long, long before the pandemic hit. That argument isn't even weak, it's an admission of having no argument.
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Any job that can be outsourced has been outsourced long, long before the pandemic hit. That argument isn't even weak, it's an admission of having no argument.
The hordes of tech workers laid off last year and who are being laid off this year would like a word with you.
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that is how you achieve advancement and professional longevity, by networking and making connections with people, professional friendships.
You ARE aware that 99% of the people you network with are not in the same town, state or even country, yes? How the hell does it matter there whether you are in some office? These people are literally NOT where you are, no matter where you place your cadaver.
It is hard to build those relationships if you are nowhere to be found.
How am I easier to find if I can be at home or at work? One should assume it's easier to locate someone if there is one defined place the person will almost certainly be located at.
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that is how you achieve advancement and professional longevity, by networking and making connections with people, professional friendships.
You ARE aware that 99% of the people you network with are not in the same town, state or even country, yes? How the hell does it matter there whether you are in some office? These people are literally NOT where you are, no matter where you place your cadaver.
It is hard to build those relationships if you are nowhere to be found.
How am I easier to find if I can be at home or at work? One should assume it's easier to locate someone if there is one defined place the person will almost certainly be located at.
This is extremely specific to the type of job. Unless your job is sitting around monitoring networks and web servers remotely or something like that, which is a type of job that probably under 1-2% of the population has, then you work directly with other people. You have coworkers, you have a boss, your boss has a boss, if you are a manager you have people under you. The byline for Slashdot is "News for Nerds" not "News for IT People in Silly Valley" which means that at least some of their audience is made
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You know, we're allowed to grow and become better. For hundred of years, it was ok to own people, yet here we are.
And that "tiny niche minority", you'll find, is pretty much everyone who can remotely do it. At the very least I do not know a single person who ever went "I wish I could spend 2 hours each direction in a traffic jam so I could hear loud Ellie talk on the phone and smell Max' tuna sandwiches all day long".
What could possibly go wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
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With a hint of luck, the backstabbing cesspool should not only keep these insufferable brownnosers busy so they can't go on your nerves, it should also ensure that the stress level causes a few early heart attack related deaths.
Don't you just love win-win situations?
Explains a lot (Score:2)
I think the worst part is...I haven't ordered a goddamned thing from Dell since I randomly decided to get some sort of tablet-like device circa 2003. That queued up the onslaught of "do you need some printer ink?" for decades.
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That is one of the nice things with the GDPR: You just send them a request to delete your address if you have not done any business with them for a while. They _will_ do that because not doing it can get very expensive. Have done it only once with a shop that kept maining me a lot of stuff on paper. Worked like a charm. Emails I just filter.
Could this be the best job ever? (Score:5, Interesting)
Del does not realize what a deal they are offering here.
Not only do you get to work fully remote, but you are completely removed from the hassle of the politics of promotion!
Knowing you will never have a promotion means you can basically just ignore any work around performance reviews, and just enjoy yearly COLA adjustments with no extra effort working towards a possible promotion.
What a stress-free way to work!
And if at any time you want a "promotion" you simply get a new job with higher pay (as another poster already noted, a lot of people will probably go that route).
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Knowing you will never have a promotion means you can basically just ignore any work around performance reviews
Huh? What do performance reviews have to do with promotions. Performance reviews are for yearly bonuses. Brownnosing is for promotions. Have you ever had a job?
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I work remotely often - been doing it for years before Covid was a thing.
With that said, in Dell's case, I think someone who is just a few years from retirement and is not expecting any further promotions before retirement will be happy to coast while working remotely. Those will presumably be very experienced staff who have worked in Dell or other related orgs for many many years, and are close to earning the most they would be earning anyway.
COLA (Score:2)
I think companies have long since stopped offering anything called "COLA". That's because there's an implication that it should somehow track against inflation. Most of them call the annual process something like "merit".
They also don't suggest that any increase is guaranteed. Whether one is provided is not based on cost of living, but on company profitability, the state of worker retention, and competitiveness in retaining top people.
Or... promotions. The one way to generally ensure you see an upwards chan
Deli Workers Can Stay Remote?! (Score:2)
Am I the only person that initially read this as, "Deli Workers Can Stay Remote"?! I thought we entered a new Work From Home paradigm, and I was all for it.
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I read this statement alone and am already one check mark away from winning the bullshit bingo.
No promotions? Well then... (Score:2)
No promotions?
Well then, guess who's going to be doing as little work as possible for as long as they can, while quietly lining up another job?
ALL of your workers, that's who.
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How else are you supposed to waste company time without a water cooler to stand next to and chat about the football game result and pointless and endless meetings where the only relevant thing to do is to mentally undress the intern?
Companies don't promote from within (Score:3)
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What you need for a promotion is a current CV and the ability to interview well.
Gotta give Dell credit for honesty. (Score:2, Insightful)
Not being in the office for hallway conversations, lunches, coffee breaks, brainstorming before meetings, etc. has always been a career risk everywhere. Gotta give Dell credit for honesty.
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I really don't have to give Dell credit for anything positive. Most of us saw the writing on the wall, Return To the Overlord mandates was backdoor firing. Once that was done, the layoffs started.
If this is anything, it's testing the waters before RTO mandates are pushed.
Fuck Dell (Score:2)
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Grandpa, what does "promoted" mean? (Score:3)
I've been in the engineering biz for 25 years, had a highly successful salary progression, and have never once been "promoted." Every advancement has come through switching jobs, which is easy to do if you're good at what you do. Seriously, I'm what some of you might call old, and I think the concept of "promotion" is for gullible old people. Screw the gold watch; it's a stupid mirage.
I agree with a previous poster that this is a fantastic development, and allows Dell employees to trade a phantom Boomer promise that will never materialize for real, major benefit right now. Which means it won't last long once the Dell execs figure out
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Totally agree with this. I've been in engineering more like 40 years and my experience is exactly the same. It took me ages to think beyond the brainwashing and get to a high enough position across multiple companies to confirm my suspicions, but I did. Here's the dirty truth:
Unless you're prepared to spend decades working at the same company (and most companies dont even last that long anymore), the promise of any real career growth that most companies tell you about when they hire you is all just a giant
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Promotions happen when you switch jobs.
kissing ass (Score:2)
Kissing Dell ass is an in-person event. There will be no virtual ass kissing at Dell.
Promotion while working @ home, not likely, ever (Score:2)
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Care to point out how they get to interact and judge the abilities of new hires for those management positions when everyone decides that going to the office isn't really worth it?
Why bother kissing someone's ass when a promotion is just an application, a hiring interview and a "fuck you, boss, I found something new, more of money, less of YOU" away?
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Not really thought this through (Score:2)
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Anyone who worked longer than 5 years knows two things: First, "real" promotions (unlike fake ones where you get a load of new work with no extra pay or the power to actually execute what you need to do) don't happen. And second, real changes in payment (unlike the token 50 bucks more for being put on the aforementioned ejector seat with full responsibility but no decision power) happen when you switch jobs.
Why the fuck would anyone be worried about not being promoted? If you want a promotion, brush up your
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Manglement is always moronic (Score:2)
Why does manglement has to always be this brain-dead?
Anyone got promoted in the past years? (Score:2)
What company still promotes its workers? Who does that? That's a discrimination lawsuit waiting to happen. Because, why did you promote HIM and not me? Is it because I is black? Why Kevin and not Max? Worse, why Kevin and not Maxine?
What company wants to navigate that minefield? It's far easier to just hire someone new for a leader position. For multiple reasons. First, the one stated above. This is someone who was really, really qualified, independent of their race, gender, sexual preference, religion or c
god or a snipe (Score:2)
Nope. Not sure that exists. Along with pulling up by bootstraps and land of the free. One truth and 110%. And scientology.
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Michael Dell understood people (Score:2)
Dell once had Ph.D. psychiatrists hired specifically to maintain this sort low-cost pro-Dell mentality. That all ended a couple of years ago and now it looks like they have gone from tricking people into the culture to trying to force th