Phil Spencer Wants Epic Games Store and Others On Xbox Consoles (polygon.com) 49
Chris Plante reports via Polygon: Phil Spencer doesn't just want Xbox games on other consoles. He wants other video game retailers on Xbox, too. In an interview with Microsoft's CEO of Gaming during the annual Game Developers Conference, Spencer told Polygon about the ways he'd like to break down the walled gardens that have historically limited players to making purchases through the first-party stores tied to each console. Or, in layperson terms, why you should be able to buy games from other stores on Xbox -- not just the official storefront. Spencer mentioned his frustrations with closed ecosystems, so we asked for clarity. Could he really see a future where stores like Itch.io and Epic Games Store existed on Xbox? Was it just a matter of figuring out mountains of paperwork to get there? "Yes," said Spencer. "[Consider] our history as the Windows company. Nobody would blink twice if I said, 'Hey, when you're using a PC, you get to decide the type of experience you have [by picking where to buy games]. There's real value in that." Spencer believes console players would benefit from that freedom too -- and so would console makers like Microsoft.
Spencer explained how, in the past, console makers would typically subsidize the cost of expensive hardware, knowing that a portion of every dollar spent on games for the platform over the years would eventually make it back to the console maker. Then, in time, the console maker would recoup the subsidy -- and hopefully more. But, Spencer said, "Moore's Law has slowed down. The price of the components of a console aren't coming down as fast as they have in previous generations." Worse, he explained, the console market isn't growing, with more gamers moving to PC and handheld options. Now, the notion of subsidizing a console -- and forcing players to purchase games through the official storefront to help recoup costs -- might not make sense. The walls meant to lock people into consoles might be motivating them to stay out.
"[Subsidizing hardware] becomes more challenging in today's world," Spencer said. "And I will say, and this may seem too altruistic, I don't know that it's growing the industry. So I think, what are the barriers? What are the things that create friction in today's world for creators and players? And how can we be part of opening up that model?" The answer, in part, is scrapping exclusivity on more and more Xbox games. Spencer explained that the game experience is hindered when it matters what consoles we play on or what shops sell us our games. As an example, he pointed to Sea of Thieves. A player, he explained, shouldn't have to worry about what hardware they or their friends own. They should just know if their friends have and want to play Sea of Thieves. Now, Spencer said, "if I want to play on a gaming PC, then I feel like I'm more a continuous part of a gaming ecosystem as a whole. As opposed to [on console], my gaming is kind of sharded -- to use a gaming term -- based on these different closed ecosystems that I have to play across."
Spencer explained how, in the past, console makers would typically subsidize the cost of expensive hardware, knowing that a portion of every dollar spent on games for the platform over the years would eventually make it back to the console maker. Then, in time, the console maker would recoup the subsidy -- and hopefully more. But, Spencer said, "Moore's Law has slowed down. The price of the components of a console aren't coming down as fast as they have in previous generations." Worse, he explained, the console market isn't growing, with more gamers moving to PC and handheld options. Now, the notion of subsidizing a console -- and forcing players to purchase games through the official storefront to help recoup costs -- might not make sense. The walls meant to lock people into consoles might be motivating them to stay out.
"[Subsidizing hardware] becomes more challenging in today's world," Spencer said. "And I will say, and this may seem too altruistic, I don't know that it's growing the industry. So I think, what are the barriers? What are the things that create friction in today's world for creators and players? And how can we be part of opening up that model?" The answer, in part, is scrapping exclusivity on more and more Xbox games. Spencer explained that the game experience is hindered when it matters what consoles we play on or what shops sell us our games. As an example, he pointed to Sea of Thieves. A player, he explained, shouldn't have to worry about what hardware they or their friends own. They should just know if their friends have and want to play Sea of Thieves. Now, Spencer said, "if I want to play on a gaming PC, then I feel like I'm more a continuous part of a gaming ecosystem as a whole. As opposed to [on console], my gaming is kind of sharded -- to use a gaming term -- based on these different closed ecosystems that I have to play across."
What? Common sense? (Score:3)
I don't believe it. Someone is thinking long-term?
He's just afraid of antitrust law enforcement (Score:1)
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No, he's reflecting on the fact that the market dynamics are changing. Everyone is doing this. Sony is licensing their exclusives for use on PC. Nintendo has licensed their console for 3rd party developers without having to be published through them. And Microsoft wants people in their system and to collect a part of the profit from other companies.
The world is changing, everyone realises this and they are all approaching it in different ways. There is no anti-trust concern for Microsoft here. None. Xbox no
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"Sony is licensing their exclusives for use on PC." and pretty much every Xbox game is available on the PC. Let me know when Sony licenses PS games on the Xbox.
and no more bans for useing your own hdd / ssd (Score:3)
and no more bans for useing your own hdd / ssd in an sata or m.2 slot should not count as an modification
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FTC signalling, and plain old desperation since Xbox sales are a fraction of Playstation's, and some major videogame producers are considering to dump Xbox support altogether.
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The FTC signaling is obvious and meaningless but the desperation might just get them to actually do this, and that would be better for everyone.
They should really sell the console at two prices, one where it at least pays for itself if not actually makes a profit, and one where it comes bundled with their services for 3 years or whatever and where it also pays for itself as a result. That way they at least break even (and get a chance of future licensing income) when they sell the console to someone who pla
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I've often wondered how much an Xbox would cost if it was sold as just the unlocked hardware and you could use it like any PC.
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I wouldn't call it desperation. I would call it strategic.
Basically blow up the console model in front of Sony (and to a lesser extent, Nintendo).
The EU has the DMA which is forcing lots of companies to open up. Microsoft got out of it relatively unscathed. Letting other stores onto their console puts pressure on the EU to force Sony to do the same.
Micros
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't believe it. Someone is thinking long-term?
No, that (Embrace) is what Microsoft do when they are losing.
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. They Embrace when they are the smaller play in the field, they Extend when they are the big player, they Extinguish when they have a monopoly.
XBox used to be the side rejecting multi-platform co-op or non-exclusives when they had the advantage (in the US market), and they would be once again if XBox beat the Playstation.
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I don't believe it. Someone is thinking long-term?
No, that (Embrace) is what Microsoft do when they are losing.
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. They Embrace when they are the smaller play in the field, they Extend when they are the big player, they Extinguish when they have a monopoly.
XBox used to be the side rejecting multi-platform co-op or non-exclusives when they had the advantage (in the US market), and they would be once again if XBox beat the Playstation.
I can't remember a time when Xbox was the only one doing exclusivity. What console generation was this? Did we have Crash Bandicoot on Nintendo Systems and Mario on Playstation? Am I dreaming when I remember Nintendo buying Rare to make them exclusive to Nintendo and then Sony bought Naughty Dog to do the same, both before the original Xbox even came out?
The only company that really stopped the exclusivity was Sega when they stopped making hardware. But let's not pretend Microsoft pioneered any aspect of
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Long term they are thinking that they want to monopolize the game market. That's why they have purchased every important studio they could get away with in the last decade. It's why they want to transform game consoles into Windows PCs that hook up to your TV. But for Microsoft, monopoly doesn't mean they do all the work. It means they can tax anyone who makes any game because they have created a Microsoft-dependent ecosystem.
What's most important to them is that everything is created on Microsoft technolog
Console pricing (Score:1)
If I had to pay full hardware price for a ps6 and then pay PC prices for the games to only get a console experience, I'd rather pay for a full PC to get the full PC experience.
My ps5 is conveniently easy, requiring almost no maintenance and takes up very little space but the experience is definitely not as good as when I pc gamed. The initial price vs new PC was a big selling point for the lesser game experience but I won't pay near PC price for a console experience.
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What alternate reality are you living in that the cost of PC games are more expensive than console games? On the PC, I paid somewhere around $9 for GTA V (and that was a few years ago), Bastion was free, and recently $11 for Palworld. I don't even like think about how much I've spent on Switch games, and I definitely didn't get my money's worth out of that damn thing because I almost never use it in handheld mode.
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That's not what I said.
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That's not what I said.
Oh, you implied if console makers ditched the razor and blades business model? That really depends on which console you're talking about. Nintendo already sells their consoles at a profit, Sony only loses money on their digital-only edition console, and Microsoft has never made money on their consoles, at least according to this article. [gamesradar.com]
So in all likelihood, if you were paying PC game prices for your console games, the hardware is not going to become more expensive.
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I was clear I have a ps5.
You inferred. I did not imply.
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But you speculated on the price of the future PS6. If you look at Sony's history of console pricing, they charge whatever the market will bear. People lost their shit when Sony decided that the PS3 should have a heavy early adopter tax.
As for what things would look like without any sort of walled garden or restrictions, that already sort of exists. You can buy the entry level Steam Deck for $399 and Valve doesn't really care what you do with it. You could install RetroArch on it and just use it exclusiv
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I added inflation on top of the ps5 price and rounded up. The actual true hardware price would likely be higher but that's speculation since we know nothing about the ps6 now anyway.
A steam deck is 2-3+ generations old PC hardware in a tiny case with a small oled screen. My guess is their profit, if any, is razor thin. It's not a console but a portable mini pc. I can get everything in a steam deck from the public markets except the case integration. I can not get the ps5 parts without stripping a ps5.
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A steam deck is 2-3+ generations old PC hardware in a tiny case with a small oled screen. My guess is their profit, if any, is razor thin. It's not a console but a portable mini pc
You do know that consoles like the Xbox Series S/X and PS5 are based on the same generation of PC hardware as the Steam Deck right? The main difference is the Steam Deck hardware being portable has to be more power efficient. The hardware is slightly newer though.
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Yup. And a bunch of custom chips, too, which are not generally available.
I can build a pseudo Deck. I can not build a pseudo ps5 without pulling parts from a real one.
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Yup. And a bunch of custom chips, too, which are not generally available
What chips are you talking about? Consoles like the PS5 are basically PCs with custom boards as is the Steam Deck. The PS5 teardown [ifixit.com] shows two chips that might be custom. One is the APU which is unique to the PS5 and the other is the SSD controller. The SSD controller may not be required anymore as it was more for performance at the time than necessity. SSD controller are now faster. For the Steam Deck [ifixit.com], the APU is custom with other chips being off the shelf.
I can build a pseudo Deck. I can not build a pseudo ps5 without pulling parts from a real one.
As for building a Steam Deck, it has a lot more cus
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The APU. I don't care about the SSD even if Sony does. You don't think the APU is critically important?
My pseudo Deck can still play the games, display on a big screen through hdmi, etc. There are no critical parts in a Deck I can't find the functional equivalent for that won't run the games exactly the same. Note I didn't say exact clone. I said pseudo Deck, something close enough. My pseudo Deck will run windows 11 home and be fine.
Whereas without that custom APU from a PS, good luck. To say nothin
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The APU. I don't care about the SSD even if Sony does. You don't think the APU is critically important?
Both use custom APU but both are Zen 2 cores with RDNA GPUs. No one can order either APU to build their own machines. Saying that it is easier to build a Steam deck hardware wise than a PS5 is somewhat nonsense as the Steam Deck has more custom parts besides the APU.
Whereas without that custom APU from a PS, good luck. To say nothing of the proprietary OS but we're talking hardware here so I'll note it but not make a big fuss about it.
Your and everyone’s main problem is software. You could build the hardware facsimile of a PS5 but no one outside Sony developers have the software. After all what you think Sony developers develop and test games? PCs. Most likely AMD based
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If I had to pay full hardware price for a ps6 and then pay PC prices for the games to only get a console experience, I'd rather pay for a full PC to get the full PC experience.
Somewhere the price of a full PC got lost in your equation.
For the price of just the video card good enough to play PC games at a similar framerate as a PS5, I could probably buy 2 PS5 already, or a PS5 + PSVR2.
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It didn't. They took a loss on the ps5 at $500. What would a ps5 cost? $650? What if they charged breakeven on the hardware? $900? And then I had to buy an SSD, a second controller and I chose to buy a vertical stand and controller power device and when the controllers suffered drift, I bought a new controller.
I'm easily in for $850+ after tax. A ps6 with a breakeven price on the hardware would be $1000. I can get a decent gaming PC for that and also have a PC or for $2k I can get an amazing gaming
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It didn't. They took a loss on the ps5 at $500. What would a ps5 cost? $650? What if they charged breakeven on the hardware? $900? And then I had to buy an SSD, a second controller and I chose to buy a vertical stand and controller power device and when the controllers suffered drift, I bought a new controller.
Why the heck should we, the buyer, care how much a PS5 costs Sony to build? It is being sold for $500 then $500 it is.
Why do you need a SSD when the console already came with 1TB storage? Why buy a second controller? Do you also account for the second PC for your friends to come and play together? Broken controllers, do you also account for a 2nd video card/mouse/keyboard for your PC when the first one dies? The price of a controller is not that much more than a gaming mouse for your PC, did you accoun
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Because the topic I was replying to was "Sony could charge full price for the hardware" to which /I said "Hell no I won't pay".
The 1tb ssd holds about 650 GB usable. I filled it pretty fast.
My friends have their own pc, they do not bring their own controller over.
My keyboard and trackball are both 20+ years old. My controller wore out in 15 months.
I omitted nothing from the PC cost. The fact is I can re-use accessories from my PC from decades ago but can not re-use ps5 parts. My PC case is also re-usabl
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When you add all those unnecessary cost for the console and then omit the price of the PC itself and some of its components, then of course playing on PC is cheaper.
You can get a pretty great gaming PC for $1500 if you watch for deals. Loading up your console with options to try to make it as good as that PC will cost you almost a grand anyway. The PC can be upgraded piecemeal later, since everything in it has a standard form factor. The console can't. The PC can run other operating systems, the console can't. The console theoretically has better security and reduces cheating, but I've played plenty of console games online (I had consoles from when I was a kid, my firs
Inkjet printers (Score:1)
It's not even close to the same for games and their consoles but "subsidising" printers certainly keeps a huge lot of people out of the inkjet printer market. Everyone takes one look at the cartridge prices then walks away. They're literally 10x overpriced!
Nintendo will not like adult games on their hardwa (Score:1)
Nintendo will not like adult games on their hardware but say if the choice was allow them or before into alt stores with just about no control and lower cut?
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Nintendo will not like adult games on their hardware
Nintendo does have M rated games. I own a copy of South Park the Fractured but Whole [esrb.org] for Switch, and it's not censored.
steam has Adult Only games (Score:2)
steam has Adult Only games
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steam has Adult Only games
Oops, I'd legitimately forgotten that porn games were a thing. I think the closest thing I'd ever gotten to playing something like that was the really old DOS "Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of the Lounge Lizards" game. Between the extremely low-res EGA graphics and the fact that gay teenage (at the time) me couldn't really get into the mindset of a desperate straight dude looking to lose his virginity, the most memorable things to me about that game was the trivia questions it had you complete before it
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Larry wasn't a porn game by any means. There is some really weird stuff out there.
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Mortal Kombat too. It's a long time since the 90s SNES version when they changed the blood to be "sweat". As I recall the N64 Mortal Kombat Trilogy was uncensored.
can they force an xbox live fee for games on alt s (Score:2)
can they force an xbox live fee for games on alt stores?
LOL! BULLSHIT! (Score:2)
This sounds like Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish. (Score:2)
There's a place for consoles in gaming but it may not be what you think. Consoles are where DRM and anti-cheat spyware crap belongs.
As long as bringing these stores to Xbox doesn't mean more DRM for everyone else, I'm fine with that.
Walmart (Score:2)
I think Walmart should have checkout lines for Target, Aldi, Marshall's, Trade Joe and anyone else who wants have a checkout line in their stores.
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If certain car manufacturers sold cars which used geofencing rules to restrict you from all retail stores except for Walmart (and some people bought them because they were slightly cheaper than unrestricted cars), you actually would end up with an anticompetitive situation. The only reason your example seems like such an absurd concept is because no one owns a car that behaves in such a manner.
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But people are free to buy whatever car they wish.
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Sure... but it cars worked like smart phones you would really only have two types of cars to buy: The Apple car (which has 60% marketshare and it's own dedicated road system), or one of the other manufacturers who makes Android cars. Oh, and by the way, the Android cars are restricted from driving on any of Apple roadways, requiring you to take dirt roads through the woods to get to your destination.
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They do actually have checkouts for other stores within their stores. I believe that I have seen checkouts for Subway, Pizza Hut and a few other stores within Walmarts. Target has CVS and Starbucks within their stores...