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Space Science

NASA Veteran Behind Propellantless Propulsion Drive Announces Major Discovery (thedebrief.org) 259

Longtime Slashdot reader garyisabusyguy shares a report from The Debrief: Dr. Charles Buhler, a NASA engineer and the co-founder of Exodus Propulsion Technologies, has revealed that his company's propellantless propulsion drive, which appears to defy the known laws of physics, has produced enough thrust to counteract Earth's gravity. "The most important message to convey to the public is that a major discovery occurred," Buhler told The Debrief. "This discovery of a New Force is fundamental in that electric fields alone can generate a sustainable force onto an object and allow center-of-mass translation of said object without expelling mass." "There are rules that include conservation of energy, but if done correctly, one can generate forces unlike anything humankind has done before," Buhler added. "It will be this force that we will use to propel objects for the next 1,000 years until the next thing comes."

To document his team's discovery as well as the process behind their work, which Dr. Buhler cautions is in no way affiliated with NASA or the U.S. Government, the outwardly amiable researcher presented his findings at a recent Alternative Propulsion Energy Conference (APEC). Filled with both highly-credentialed career engineers and propulsion hobbyists, APEC is an organization The Debrief once referred to as the World's Most Exclusive (And Strange) Anti-Gravity Club. In conjunction with that presentation, "The Discovery of Propellantless Propulsion: The Direct Conversion of Electrical Energy into Physical Thrust," Dr. Buhler also sat down with APEC co-founder and moderator Tim Ventura to explain how his past in electrostatics, which is his primary area of expertise, ended up being a key component of his discovery of this new force. [...]

Up next, Buhler says his team is seeking funding to test their devices in space to better understand the force at work. "We're hoping to do some demos," said Buhler. "Some space demos. That's what we're trying to get some funding to do. I think that would be a great way to show off the technology." Besides proving once and for all that the force they are seeing is real, the accomplished engineer believes that such tests could encourage other scientists to search for an explanation of what exactly it is they are seeing. "I think it's a good opportunity for people to run these tests, look at them, watch them go in space, watch it move in space, and then say, "what does it imply? What are the implications?'" Until that time, Buhler says he believes his work proves that the force they are seeing is "fundamental" and that understanding it is the next logical step. "You can't deny this," he told Ventura. "There's not a lot to this. You're just charging up Teflon, copper tape, and foam, and you have this thrust."

So, while his team believes their experiments speak for themselves, the veteran scientist says he also believes it is the job of science to analyze and understand this discovery. If successful, he thinks it may even address some of the harder questions in science, including the nature of dark energy or even space/time itself. "It's easy to make these things," he said, "so it's a tool for the scientific community to use to try to explore those hard questions."
If there are companies or individuals interested in working with Exodus Propulsion Technologies, Buhler asks that they reach out via their LinkedIn page.
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NASA Veteran Behind Propellantless Propulsion Drive Announces Major Discovery

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  • by simlox ( 6576120 ) on Saturday April 20, 2024 @02:12AM (#64409724)
    he could easily demonstrate and experiment with it on the ground. So why ask for investment to go to Space? The cold fusion guys at least published stuff and let the community debunk it instead of asking for investments. I don't say the 4 letter s-word.
    • Exactly what bothered me. If they can counter gravity on earth with "1g" of thrust, they can amaze everyone tomorrow by a public demonstration with journalists, scientists and all and they'd have billions of investor money instantly. So something smells like fish oil here.
      • TFA says that only the part that actually does the magic can generate 1g of thrust but adding stuff to it like landing gear, gyroscopes, control fins, etc would be too much.

        I don't know why he cares about generating 1g of trust on earth's surface anyway. Generating a tiny fracton of that in space over a long period of time is fantastic, if he could really do it, which, well, we all remember the EmDrive, which they sent up to space last year but never actually managed to test somehow, but which has recieved

    • Money, of course. It's much easier to string people along by saying "if only we had $30,000,000 to launch the full-scale version!"

      It's a contemporary version of a "Dean Drive", with enough of a sketchy and poorly reviewed patent to encourage people who crave a propellant free drive for use in space.

      • by arglebargle_xiv ( 2212710 ) on Saturday April 20, 2024 @03:12AM (#64409816)

        I propose calling this sort of thing an N3 drive, in recognition of the fact that what the various inventors are really claiming is a means of bypassing Newton's third law.

        Nice to see that TFA follows the common science-reporting practice of telling you next to nothing about how this new breakthrough is supposed to work while going on at length about its myriad benefits.

    • by Shaitan ( 22585 )

      There isn't much to push off in space. It seems fairly obvious to me. Taking it to space rules out a whole slew of Earth related forces that skeptics would assert this is using in some manner such as the Earth's magnetic field and so on.

      Of course given that there is a giant interconnected mess of gravitational pulls throughout our solar system and the galaxy I've always wondered that nobody seemed to be looking at pushing/pulling on them in a more serious way than old school newtonian senses.

      • Of course given that there is a giant interconnected mess of gravitational pulls throughout our solar system and the galaxy I've always wondered that nobody seemed to be looking at pushing/pulling on them in a more serious way than old school newtonian senses.

        Because that doesn't exist. People are already making the most of what the unintuitive ends of Newtonion physics has to offer, using gravitational slingshots, the Oberth effect, Hohmann transfers and so on. There isn't really anything else left.

        • Does your sig actually say more about you than about perpetual motion machines?

          • It does: my sig has nothing to say about perpetual motion machines. They don't exist, I assume everyone knows this.

            I think the mental gymnastics people (particularly angel'o'sphere) employ to avoid understanding that an EM drive is equivalent to a perpetual motion machine is funny. That is indeed saying something about me.

      • Agreed and this point is exactly my problem with one statement in the article:

        "The magnitude [10 mN] is not important, really, since anything above zero would work in space!"

        Actually it is important because it's easy to get fooled by external influences when the effect is tiny. If he was measuring 50 N of force it's easy to eliminate subtle testing artifacts, e.g., interactions with Earth's magnetic field. So in this case either scaling up to larger forces or getting into space seem like the only options.

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      If you mean Pons and Fleischman by "the cold fusion guys", I am convinced they were honest. They just did really bad science there, so they were also arrogant and stupid. But they followed sound scientific practices by publishing everything, so while they messed up, they remained scientists. But here is anther "cold fusion" guy:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] That one is a scammer.

      In the case at hand, there are tell-tales that point to "scam", in particular the absence of sufficiently peer-reviewed publ

    • by Cito ( 1725214 )

      "In this house we obey the law of thermodynamics!"
      - Homer

      ;-)

    • by Nkwe ( 604125 )
      Exactly. He can use this to give us our flying cars we have been waiting for, and prove his technology.
  • by backslashdot ( 95548 ) on Saturday April 20, 2024 @02:13AM (#64409726)

    OK .. how about publishing in a peer reviewed journal. They even accept totally faked results these days (see below references), so why not this?
    Top science journals accepting fake results:
    https://www.vice.com/en/articl... [vice.com]
    https://www.theverge.com/2024/... [theverge.com]
    https://www.chemistryworld.com... [chemistryworld.com]

  • Prove It (Score:5, Insightful)

    by divide overflow ( 599608 ) on Saturday April 20, 2024 @02:22AM (#64409736)
    If this is supposedly real science, demonstrate that it works.
    Show us the evidence.
  • Dr Buhler seems pretty confident but the proof will be in the delta-v.

    I'm skeptical for 2 reasons:
    How could we not have detected this effect earlier? Are humans just that stupid?

    If the key to interstellar propulsion is this simple and efficient then it does invoke the Fermi paradox. Where are all the aliens zipping about on static electricity powered ships?
    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Generally humans are stupid and only about 20% are accessible to rational argument. That means if a scam or delusion is presented convincingly, about 80% of the population have no rational defenses. They may or may not have their own irrational convictions that disagree with the scam or delusion, but that is all that protects them from falling victim.

      As to the subject, especially engineers have fallen for kidding themselves hard on some phenomena they observed and failed to do proper verification and anal

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        You can only give a theoretical explanation, if you have one.

        Pons and Fleischman did not have one. So they just published their results. And got shit stormed for it. They did not even ask for funds. They only published their results. And: at my university, KiT, Karlsruhe Institute of Technology: we duplicated he results just finely. Like many other institutes did. BUT: we do not know what went on.

        And if you think I'm an idiot. Up to you. I was half a dozen times present when we did it. So I saw it with my o

        • Both Pons and Fleischman are working for the US Navy.

          Given that Fleishman died 12 years ago, that's quite impressive. Almost as impressive as continuing to wok age 97, but not quite.

          Pons relinquished his US citizenship in the late 90s and is now 80. He ain't working for the US Navy that's for sure.

          Though it does not surprise me that having latched onto this crank drive after the crank EM drive, you're also a proponent of cold fusion. Any other fringe theories?

      • I think a lot of people don't really understand the difference between incomplete and wrong, or that right and wrong is not binary but a continuum, see for example Asimov's "relativity of wrong".

        That because physics is "wrong" you might be able to do anything, whereas the errors are actually going to be at the margins far away from what you can easily measure. Astronomical scales, vast energies, that kind of thing. Not human scale things at human scale energies.

        I think people imagine that every time somethi

  • April 1st (Score:5, Funny)

    by sadtrev ( 61519 ) on Saturday April 20, 2024 @02:26AM (#64409742) Homepage

    They missed the posting date on this story

  • by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Saturday April 20, 2024 @02:36AM (#64409764)

    Given there are people who buy into cryptocurrency, there are people who will believe in anything.

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Apparently only about 10-15% of the population are able to fact-check themselves ("independent thinkers") and apparently overall only 20% can be convinced by rational argument (the independent thinkers included). Hence you have 80% that cannot fact-check at all. These people just select opinions presented to them based on non-rational criteria or sometimes come up with their own. Then they hallucinate that they have actual facts and often aggressively defend against any and all attempts to explain to them t

    • Well crypto is real in that you can pay an excessive amount of money for the ability to prove you paid an excessive amount of money for an ugly picture of an ape. And you can prove forever more g that you wasted that money.

      So crypto is useful in the sense that it allows idiots to prove they are idiots mathematically.

  • Buhler (Score:4, Funny)

    by flyingfsck ( 986395 ) on Saturday April 20, 2024 @02:37AM (#64409770)
    Anyone, anyone?
  • by Ken_g6 ( 775014 ) on Saturday April 20, 2024 @03:11AM (#64409812)

    This part of the article jumped out at me (without propellant!)

    Another unusual result from their tests was that sometimes the tested devices did not require a constant input of electrical charge to maintain their thrust. Given that the device already appears to violate the known laws of physics by creating thrust without propellant, this result even stumped Dr. Buhler and his team.

    “We can see some of these things sit on a scale for days, and if they still have charge in them, they are still producing thrust,” he told Ventura. “It’s very hard to reconcile, from a scientific point of view because it does seem to violate a lot of energy laws that we have.”

    That really doesn't make sense...unless the device is interacting with its test chamber. Then it's in a simple static (electric) equilibrium, [wikipedia.org] an electric field pulling it toward part of the test chamber.

    Violating conservation of energy should be an indication that something is wrong. Unfortunately, I think this is something all emissionless drives do, if you point two opposite each other and tie them together. If they don't emit anything, the energy going into them is vanishing.

  • Why exactly... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Rei ( 128717 ) on Saturday April 20, 2024 @03:40AM (#64409836) Homepage

    ... are we putting blatant pseudoscience on Slashdot? Are we becoming Natural News? Ir InfoWars maybe?

    • I think slashdot was sold to corporate interests, its not the same slashdot of the old days
    • by ukoda ( 537183 )
      Maybe they knew it does smell right but posted it anyway as a way to get a whole of geeks commenting on Newton's 3rd law etc. On that basis it seems to be a popular post.
    • Why does mainstream science rely on defensive emotional attacks when its assumptions are questioned?

      • Probably because the credulous cranks won't listen no matter what so we may as well have a laugh at your expense.

        Out of interest what non mainstream science are you also behind?

    • The same reason it has always been done, and also the same reason that it has increased since the last sale of the site. Anything we will argue about creates more pages on Slashdot and gives it more currency which means more search hits which means more ad impressions.

  • by jd ( 1658 )

    The conservation laws are statistical, at least to a degree. Local apparent violations can be OK, provided the system as a whole absolutely complies.

    There's no question that if the claim was as appears that the conservation laws would be violated system-wide, which is a big no-no.

    So we need to look for alternative explanations.

    The most obvious one is that the results aren't being honestly presented, that there's so much wishful thinking that the researchers are forcing the facts to fit their theory. (A tend

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Indeed. Especially

      The most obvious one is that the results aren't being honestly presented, that there's so much wishful thinking that the researchers are forcing the facts to fit their theory. (A tendency so well known, that it's even been used as the basis for fictional detectives.)

      is a hot candidate. Remember the "EM Drive" and cold fusion, for example.

      One thing is missing from your list: Direct fraud. See, for example, the Rossie "E-Cat".

  • This would be great news, if true. But you can prove this without going to space. Hang it on a cable, like a pendulum. Turn it on. If the cable is no longer vertical, you have thrust.

    Can't do that? Then it doesn't work. Simple and cheap to test.

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Not quite. You can verify it does not work that way, but if it works, it may well be something else than actual thrust.

    • actually it's a kid's science experiment to do just that by hanging a properly shaped spike from a metal wire and applying EMF, ionized air provides thrust with these kind of "lifters", also can be done as a ion wind rotor. No unknown physics are at work, been done since 18th century 8D

  • Lets see how long this one lasts. "Defies the laws of Physics" is just an alternate formulation for "scam" (unless extraordinary evidence is presented). Unfortunately, too many people do not understand basic Physics and are willing to believe any and all crap, so this one will run a while, I expect.

  • I rubbed a balloon on my head and it sticks to the ceiling... I counteracted Earth's gravity with the electric field!
    Send me money please

  • by Eunomion ( 8640039 ) on Saturday April 20, 2024 @05:53AM (#64409972)
    A real version of this would just quietly accumulate experimental evidence. You wouldn't need to beg for money.
  • Complete with perpetual motion and new laws of physics. I suspect, like the USAF pilot UFO hypeists, they're trying to sell conferences, speaking fees, newsletter subscriptions, podcasts, and books.
  • Anyone remember the EMDrive?

    https://www.reddit.com/r/EmDri... [reddit.com]

    This Buhler guy is even worse than the EMDrive guy, because he doesnâ(TM)t even attempt to offer an explanation about the theory or apparatus.

  • They've almost achieved it. They've made propulsion-less propellant .. so now all they have got to do is figure out how to swap the propellant for propulsion and vice versa and they're in business.

  • It's confusing because of non-unique names, but I haven't been able to find a CV, bio, or publication list... nothing to confirm that he is at NASA, was at NASA, or that he's the top electrostatics expert at NASA.

  • Scientists usually seek grants, not investors during early research (if ever).
    It sounds inexpensive enough to pay for and for others to replicate out of pocket.
    Put it on a scale and point it up to see if its weight decreases then flip it over and see if its weight increases (use non-magnetic scale).
    Obviously, we would really love to have such a technology.
    If it's a potential new force then physicists by the hundreds will be looking into it.

    • >If it's a potential new force then physicists by the hundreds will be looking into it.

      It's not, they won't, and whoever gave a doctorate to this guy should consider revoking it.

      There's a difference between "hey, that's odd, I can't explain that (yet)" and "I see something that's counter to all known physics and almost certainly due to experimental error, so I assume physics is wrong!". If your reaction falls into the latter group, you are a crank and a pseudo-scientist, regardless of any prior achievem

  • "It's fundamental! You can't deny this! There's not a lot to this. You're just charging up Teflon(R), copper tape, and foam, and you have this thrust." So amazing, it's amazing. It's fundamentally funda-undamental.
      Now off to space using old-school anti-gravity in search of perpetuum! It's the only thing remaining that I need to RU-U-ULE THE WO-O-O-ORLD! Is my tie straight?

  • by hdyoung ( 5182939 ) on Saturday April 20, 2024 @10:00AM (#64410280)
    Holy crap its been a long time since I saw that many crackpots together on one screen. Over several 5 minute presentations I heard literally every sciencey buzzword uttered in random orders, along with serveral pictures of experiments that amounted to mysterious canisters of stuff with wires sticking out, or random metal objects with high voltage arcing between them. And the whole gist of that ex-NASA guys idea can be summed up by the words CASIMIR BUT EVEN WEIRDER. Is there still weird stuff out there for us to discover? Definitely. But these guys are just suffering from misfiring neurons.
  • by pimpsoftcom ( 877143 ) on Saturday April 20, 2024 @01:07PM (#64410560) Journal

    All you have to do is show me that you can have something pop up of its own accord and Get tugged out of a power Jack because it's thrust is so powerfully that it loses its power once the plug is pulled.

    Do that in front of a bunch of reporters and VCR will be begging you to accept their money.

    This sounds fishy because he won't even do a half-cooked demo that shows thrust in a lab environment.

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