The Automotive Cold War Is Officially Underway (insideevs.com) 170
Tim Levin reports via InsideEVs: Two things of note in the electric vehicle world happened today around the same time. First, the Geely Group-owned Chinese EV brand Zeekr debuted on the New York Stock Exchange today at a valuation of around $5.2 billion. Then, around 250 miles south in Washington, D.C., news emerged that the Biden Administration is set to quadruple tariffs on Chinese-made electric cars if they hit American roads. The timing may be purely coincidental. But after this week, one thing feels clearer than ever: the automotive Cold War between China and the West is fully underway, and EVs specifically are at the center of it all.
The Wall Street Journal got the scoop that the White House plans to announce higher tariffs on Chinese clean-energy imports in the coming days. Under the reported new policies, tariffs on Chinese EVs are set to quadruple, rising from the current 25% to a whopping 100%, anonymous sources told the outlet. In theory, that would substantially increase the cost of any Chinese-made EVs on our market, including, potentially, ones sold by known Western and other Asian brands. It's no secret why the U.S. is attempting to push back on Chinese EVs, to say nothing of other clean energy imports from that country like solar panels. China has spent years aggressively building up its capacity to manufacture electric cars. It's developed a stranglehold on the supply chains for lithium-ion batteries and the critical minerals they contain. It has lavished state incentives on both EV production and purchasing. In recent years, the country has emerged as a global EV powerhouse -- and, for the first time ever, an exporter on par with leaders like Japan and Germany.
Many still believe that China's cars are cheap and technologically subpar. But the truth is China has learned to build cars very, very well, as InsideEVs' own Kevin Williams discovered during a recent trip to the Beijing auto show. China's homegrown electrified vehicles range from the inexpensive -- some, like the BYD Seagull, cost less than $10,000 in their home market -- to higher-end, luxury-focused offerings like the Yangwang U8, a kind of plug-in hybrid competitor to the Mercedes G-Class that can "float" on water. From batteries to software, most are incredibly advanced. Car companies and policymakers in the U.S. (and Europe) say these cars pose a real threat to our nascent EV market, where many options still remain unaffordable and things like batteries and software are works in progress. In response, European Union officials have also launched investigations into Chinese imports that could lead to stronger tariffs. "In effect, the tariffs may end up buying the U.S. some time, rather than being a permanent solution here," concludes Levin. "After all, as Kevin Williams pointed out after going to Beijing: all of these crackdowns aren't guaranteed to yield better cars from Ford, General Motors and the rest."
According to the WSJ, the new tariffs on Chinese goods will also apply to solar panels, batteries and critical battery minerals. They're expected to be announced as soon as next week.
The Wall Street Journal got the scoop that the White House plans to announce higher tariffs on Chinese clean-energy imports in the coming days. Under the reported new policies, tariffs on Chinese EVs are set to quadruple, rising from the current 25% to a whopping 100%, anonymous sources told the outlet. In theory, that would substantially increase the cost of any Chinese-made EVs on our market, including, potentially, ones sold by known Western and other Asian brands. It's no secret why the U.S. is attempting to push back on Chinese EVs, to say nothing of other clean energy imports from that country like solar panels. China has spent years aggressively building up its capacity to manufacture electric cars. It's developed a stranglehold on the supply chains for lithium-ion batteries and the critical minerals they contain. It has lavished state incentives on both EV production and purchasing. In recent years, the country has emerged as a global EV powerhouse -- and, for the first time ever, an exporter on par with leaders like Japan and Germany.
Many still believe that China's cars are cheap and technologically subpar. But the truth is China has learned to build cars very, very well, as InsideEVs' own Kevin Williams discovered during a recent trip to the Beijing auto show. China's homegrown electrified vehicles range from the inexpensive -- some, like the BYD Seagull, cost less than $10,000 in their home market -- to higher-end, luxury-focused offerings like the Yangwang U8, a kind of plug-in hybrid competitor to the Mercedes G-Class that can "float" on water. From batteries to software, most are incredibly advanced. Car companies and policymakers in the U.S. (and Europe) say these cars pose a real threat to our nascent EV market, where many options still remain unaffordable and things like batteries and software are works in progress. In response, European Union officials have also launched investigations into Chinese imports that could lead to stronger tariffs. "In effect, the tariffs may end up buying the U.S. some time, rather than being a permanent solution here," concludes Levin. "After all, as Kevin Williams pointed out after going to Beijing: all of these crackdowns aren't guaranteed to yield better cars from Ford, General Motors and the rest."
According to the WSJ, the new tariffs on Chinese goods will also apply to solar panels, batteries and critical battery minerals. They're expected to be announced as soon as next week.
Missing information (Score:3)
Re:Missing information (Score:5, Insightful)
The more likely scenario is that by the time they meet all the US safety requirements for automobiles, they won't be $20k vehicles any more, they're be two or three times that. (Without increased tariffs.)
Re:Missing information (Score:5, Insightful)
The more likely scenario is that by the time they meet all the US safety requirements for automobiles, they won't be $20k vehicles any more, they're be two or three times that. (Without increased tariffs.)
They already satisfy the just as strict European standards.
If America could just block them with "standards" why the need for the tariffs?
Re: Missing information (Score:2)
European standards are stricter than the US, actually. Cybertruck isn't legal there. Or in China, even.
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I think it falls into the same category as medium delivery trucks. A regular license won't cut it to drive in the EU.
No, it is not to heavy. A standard driving license is good for 3.5 metric tons.
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Battery electric vehicles have a 0.025% chance of catching fire, compared to 1.5% for internal combustion engine.
An ICE is 61 times more likely to catch on fire than an EV.
EV vs ICE fire statistics [vinfastauto.us]
Re: Missing information (Score:3)
Re:Missing information (Score:5, Interesting)
The more likely scenario is that by the time they meet all the US safety requirements for automobiles, they won't be $20k vehicles any more, they're be two or three times that. (Without increased tariffs.)
US safety standards are not a hard requirement to meet and not very stringent. EU is a higher bar.
More likely: the USA's fetish of large mega trucks and unwieldy big pieces of metal will mean they won't be $20k vehicles anymore. The BYD Han costs over $30k in the USA. It's a large luxury car and the selling price is not much more than the Chinese price converted + existing import tariffs.
The companies themselves have been clear on this. They are not interested in playing a price game in the USA. Doing so requires long term investment and they won't do so in a country with an uncertain political future.
Chinese car companies offer more cheaper models in the EU than the USA despite the fact that cars are historically cheaper in the USA, and despite the EU safety standards being higher. E.g. that news article we ran the other day about AEB being mandated in the USA from 2029? Yeah that's been a thing in the EU for a couple of years already.
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They already meet US safety requirements, or you could not import and sell them ... Facepalm
Misleading information (Score:5, Insightful)
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Regardless of whether or not they are coming putting tariffs on them makes this a trade war not a cold war.
They are only talking about it. That makes it cold war, not a trade war. It only turns into a trade war when someone actually does something.
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is there any evidence that any of these Chinese EV companies make reliable products at all? I don't give a shit about a $20k EV if it doesn't last 2 years, let alone the 20+ a Toyota would.
They are good at what they are. Efficient, inexpensive transport. They are reliable. They will not wear out quickly.
They do not have the safety features you are used to in an American or European car. Those add weight, and cost.
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They do not have the safety features you are used to in an American or European car. Those add weight, and cost.
Except they are already sold in comparable western countries.
They just didn't bother yet in America 1)because they knew these kind of artificial restrictions would make it less profitable 2) there was plenty of better low hanging fruit to pick first.
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They have the same safety features ... Other wise they could not sell them:
O in the EU
O in the US
O in Asia
O or in China
Facepalm ...
Re:Missing information (Score:4, Interesting)
I Went To China And Drove A Dozen Electric Cars. Western Automakers Are Cooked [insideevs.com]
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Such an informative article — you really get a sense of how much better the cars are. The interior of that Galaxy G8 — not just the screen but the rest of the interior too — is amazingly premium for a 25k USD car. Western car companies and governments have truly done this to themselves. They fucked around for years getting in a tizzy over the drivetrains because a bunch of old men felt such an emotional attachment to the vroom vroom noises, and let the Chinese, who had no such attachment,
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China is as communist as North Korea is democratic. Amazing how people (not you, obviously!) fall for these transparent word games, and thus ignore the obvious evidence that China is an authoritarian capitalist regime.
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Didn't you read the fucking article? Their dude went to an auto show and they are AwsoME!!! They compete with anything on the European or American markets and their quality is ultra double plus good.
Re: Missing information (Score:2)
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In US obviously not. ...
As you obviously are a bunsh of yahoos
The electric cars in my road are mostly Chinese, but two Teslas and a bunsh of Japanese running around, an a Porsche.
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The cars in the video you posted are both 50k GBP. Not cheap. But it's true the BYD seems reasonably competitive... it isn't a Yugo. But also in the review, most things weren't quite as good as the Tesla. (though Tesla even putting freakin' drive and reverse on the touch screen is ridiculous, IMO). And the Tesla had more features ( self parking ; autopilot)
So it's an achievement that the Chinese have gotten to 1st world car quality, like the Korean brands and the Japanese brands before that.
But so fa
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Don’t over-read from one video. The Chinese are competing extremely effectively in Europe, with cars like the MG4 and MG5, Polestar, the Cyberster, etc. Many of them offer excellent value *for what they are* — the Cyberster is a 2 door scissor wing sports convertible GT for about USD 60k. There’s no 2 door Porsche EV yet, and a Taycan starts at a considerably punchier price, as will the Maserati EVs when they hit production. Chinese cars don’t need to be unique to be competitive, the
Too bad... (Score:3)
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It would be nice to see Chinese EVs. US automakers refuse to compete, but they continue to price gouge.
On the ass-end of union settled labor rates, I’d say US automakers are in on hell of a catch-22. You either want to kill the US auto industry altogether, or you want to save it by protecting it. There really isn’t any “competing” with Chinese manufacturing rates, so that’s a dead argument anyway.
The US market is certainly already feeling the squeeze domestically. I’m still seeing internet ads for 2023 models. Says a lot halfway through 2024.
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The wages of union labor is not the cause of high prices. Auto makers keep raising prices and people keep buying them. Did you ever think you'd see the day of $100,000 SUVs like the Jeep Grand Wagoneer? That used to be Mercedes G Wagon territory. Same goes with pickup trucks. Yeah yeah I know the base model is like $35k but you tell me how many 2WD trucks with a normal cab they sell. They're nearly all extended cab with a bed smaller than a Subaru Brat.
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Many people cannot afford a car these days
Isn't that the point? They're more finance companies which happen to make cars as a side gig. Doesn't work if people can easily buy the cars outright.
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And yet cars similar to your ideal do exist in other Western markets. Heck, the Citroen Ami does quite a lot of it for under 10k. A second hand 2nd gen Renault Zoe would do almost all of it, including the range, for under 15k.
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OK, well the Dacia Spring costs 15k GBP, drives at highway speeds, and has a range of 143 miles. It’s the first model that cheap but it won’t be the lastno 4WD or AWD though.
The Boeing School of Safety (Score:4, Interesting)
Government intervention keeps making car makers add expensive safety equipment that is great as an OPTION, but should not be forced
I see you are an advocate of the Boeing school of safety. I'm not entirely sure that always works well, while you can over do it sometimes expensive safety equipment has to be mandated.
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It's sad and hilarious that you consider factor workers to be unskilled.
By the way, you're on my lawn.
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It is three problems. 1) Exec levels are overpaid, and 2) unions make unskilled labor overpaid, and 3) Government intervention keeps making car makers add expensive safety equipment that is great as an OPTION, but should not be forced. Limit CEO pay, get rid of the unions and offer cars with more optional components so that you can tailor it to your price range. I know people are going to go ballistic over the union comment, but it is fact. Union SKILLED labor like electricians and welders are pretty much on par with skilled labor that is not backed by unions. But unions forcing companies to pay people with no education and no skills that can only reliably push a broom in the $20-$40 an hour range is ridiculous.
Actually, while top executives being overpaid is a huge problem in general, the problem with electric cars specifically is that those top executives (and companies) are out of touch with the need of the common folk (us peasants). And also out of touch with the world as a whole (Detroit is not the USoA, and the USoA is not the world)
That leads to a problem, in which most, if not all, of B-EVs made in the USoA are Halo/luxury cars, and thus, overpriced.
Just to give an example, a ford mustang Mach-e is anythin
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and 2) unions make unskilled labor overpaid,
You're going to sit there with a straight face and tell me if Ford slashes labor costs it will be reflected in the sticker price? Any labor savings will go towards bonuses for the suits who saved the company money.
Cost of unions (Score:2)
A dose of facts to counter Communist propaganda... Ford's labor costs will go up $8.8billion in 2024, because of the new contract with the union [freep.com]. According to Communists (like ArchieBunker here), had Ford's executives managed to stave off that increase, it would've gone into their bonuses — well, Ford's very CEO's total compensation was $26 million in 2023 — a rise of $8 billion would've been an unimaginable 300+
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Quick google search: "How many hours of labour does it take to manufacture a car?
Quora ..."
https://www.quora.com/ [quora.com] How-many-hours-of-labour-d...
If You're asking about factory hours, General Motors is reported to put in between 20 and 30 on the Silverado, depending on trim level and model
So, if union workers are costing auto companies, say, $100 / hr, that's $2K - $3K of labor expense in this Silverado. Can't see how labor expense is making the $36.8K base price vehicle uncompetitive. Make slaves of th
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In 2023 Ford Motor Company employed 177K people [macrotrends.net]. They sold "nearly" 2 million vehicles that year [cnbc.com], or about 11 vehicles per employee. In a year — or 2000 business-hours per person, which makes the average vehicle cost about 180 hours, not "20-30".
I doubt, GM's figures are drastically different from Ford's. Maybe, your source is counting just the guys on the assembly line — excluding everyon
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Citation, please.
That may be a contributing factor too. But the union's government-supported monopoly on labor was the original topic, let's stick to that.
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People have such a distorted view of this. European regulators are typically substantially more actively interventionist than US regulators in every field. I’m sure it’s true for automotive as well. For example, the Cybertruck can’t be sold in Europe because it’s too dangerous for other road users.
Protectionism and National Security (Score:3)
The US auto industry has always lobbied politicians to prevent having to compete. They have historically seen it as the more profitable option, and that's why Ford, Chrysler, and GM aren't essentially a cartel any longer.
On the other hand, EVs these days usually phone home and can be controlled to disturbing levels by the manufacturer. Handing over to an adversary lumps of potentially explosive metal that are, by design, to move freely around your country at high velocity seems like a REALLY dumb move.
I'd say anything without a self-drive feature that meets American safety standards should be allowed on American soil, with perhaps a small tariff to balance out the extra expenses American manufacturers have to shoulder for meeting better environmental and labour regulations during production. Going beyond that is just admitting America can't compete any longer. Or rather, it's equivalent to anyone who can think. There's no actual admission happening.
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This protects Tesla, and to a smaller extent, Rivian and Polestar. It also protects a whopping amount of dollars going overseas.
For my tastes, self-driving is useless, and won't be viable for a long time. Cut out the R&D for it, reduce the middle 8K display for a regular old speedometer, and the costs could be cut dramatically, even in domestic cars.
EVs are a mindset, but are so over-featured that their expense has become ludicrous. All this while the climate is melting. IMHO, Biden's protectionist play
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A backup camera is mandatory, GP was talking about video gauge clusters. As a proud self-proclaimed nerd who has had a variety of styles of dash but not a video one, I agree. I've had LED, LCD, combos, individual gauges, typical needle gauges, combos of types of gauges, and a really beautiful frosted glass long travel needle on a '60 Dodge. And to my mind, the very best of these were and are individual gauge types. They look both sporty and function, they are easy to maintain, they are easy to reconfigure i
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When a long-lived LED display technology becomes cheap and so ubiquitous that very reliably hardware is readily available
I think you might want to look around. That day is already here. We're awash in cheap screen technology. It's so cheap, we're looking for new places to put them. And they've even gone so far down in price, they're significantly cheaper than those mechanical analog gauges you're mythologizing.
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I think you might want to look around. That day is already here. We're awash in cheap screen technology.
Cheap shit screens, yes, burn-in, short lives, etc. Or, poor contrast and daylight viewability.
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Re: Protectionism and National Security (Score:2)
The rear view mirror on our 2017 Chevrolet Bolt doubles as a screen for the backup camera.
For the speedometer, there is a separate analog display.
One isn't required to use the central screen to drive the car.
Similar on my 2015 Volt except it's lower tech.
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I really think it’s worth your time to read the article about the cars at the Beijing show. Chinese cars are often vastly *better* featured than US cars while also being much better value. US cars already feel wildly cheap inside by comparison. Making them feel even cheaper won’t make them more competitive against Chinese cars. The problem is more fundamental: US car companies have not invested in the economies of scale needed for their drivetrains to be competitive, and have focused on a single
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My job is not to make US cars more competitive. The fundamental problem with US automotive manufacturing is complex. We led at one time because we were leading the world in innovation.
'
Except for Ford, the US didn't make cars for export markets. Quality and materials sourcing went to hell. When the oil companies took control, they couldn't adapt to the changing total cost of ownership.
They had little actual honor, preferring to stand behind the shield of branding. They didn't adapt to robotic manufacturing.
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All the equipment for autopilot is needed for the safety systems anyway, like lane departure warnings and front collision avoidance. So you might as well have auto steering too.
The digital speedo probably doesn't cost any more than an analogue one. Lower r&d costs too, adding a new "light" is just a software upgrade instead of changing the hardware.
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Look at the stupid 25 year rule the US has for importing foreign vehicles. These cars are made to more stringent EU or Japanese safety standards but they haven't gone through the official US testing.
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The US has extremely stringent crash test requirements. Right now US, Euro, and Japanese standards are very close and are superior only in different areas, but for most of automotive history the US had the strictest standards.
We are a bit behind in emissions laws, except California which is being extra crappy about them in certain regards. You can't argue that there haven't been great accomplishments, though.
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US standards are very stringent for driver (and to some extent passenger) safety. They are incredibly lax when it comes to the safety of other road users. Pickup trucks and SUVs are routinely sold in the US with horrendous blind spots, terrible front visibility, bumpers and bull bars that spell death for any cyclist, pedestrian or driver of a small car, etc. Many of these cars would not be permitted in Europe. Even things like indicators (blinkers) being allowed to be red rather than orange in the US is a c
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"but for most of automotive history the US had the strictest standards."
Is that a kind of joke?
Completely delusional?
Or are you on drugs?
Probably just a proud MAGA american?
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When we're talking about crash test standards, the USA has typically been out in front. For a recent example, we were the first to implement a partial offset frontal crash test requirement.
Emissions are mixed; California has often been out in front, most of the country has usually been behind.
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>> difficult to verify how much the Chinese gov't subsidizes
Difficult to tell exactly how much but in this case it's a lot. BYD reportedly got $4 billion, and there are also rumors of forced labor. China has made this a national priority and they have calculated that this will pay off in the long term.
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The US government could have invested in helping its own industry transition to EVs for the last couple of decades, too. But that would have required strategic rather than tactical thinking, and the US’s system of governance makes that incredibly difficult.
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We also subsidize our auto industry. We spent $80 billion bailing them out in 2008 and God knows how much on fossil fuels that keep the running costs of ICE cars low.
Meanwhile in Australia (Score:3)
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We killed our domestic car manufacturers so we're free to import and get cheap Chinese electric EVs.
In which dream world could you imagine an Australia local car manufacturer that can build EV cheaper than the Chinese? When everyone else including Tesla, Toyota, Honda, etc had already shown they are unable to do so?
I took as Australia bit the bullet and let its car industry fail because they knew how expensive and impractical it would be to try and compete with China. Sucked for the car industry. But everyone now gets to buy cheaper cars.
How is that implying Australia would have been able to compete? The industry was already shut down because it couldn't compete, even after being given handouts to try.
And Tesla will ...??? (Score:2)
Bejing can always use Tesla as a pawn and threaten to raise their "tariff," but then again, Tesla is the upper end of EVs in China and your average worker will never buy one.
So where is Tesla going? I don't see customers lining up to "RAT" (Rent a Tesla) even though Elon thinks that.
Where is a cheap EV that a 20 something will be able to buy, like when I was young & making low wages? I could still afford a full size Chevy Blazer. You can't do that today.
And meanwhile, in Hybrid-Electric news... (Score:4, Interesting)
The financia times is reporting that Many automakers, said: "Tapping the resurgent demand for hybrids was a priority, executives from General Motors, Nissan, Hyundai, Volkswagen and Ford told the Financial Times’ Future of the Car Summit this week."
Non-Paywalled lnk:
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2... [arstechnica.com]
I, personally, think that Cheap and cheerfull PiH-S-EVs using Natural Gas (as in methane and ethane) and not Liquid Natural Gas (buthane and Propane) is the future.
Why:
The ICE can be set up at a fixed RPM to contaminate the minimum and have the maximum efficency.
The ICE can be Pretty small and light (one or 2cyl)
The ICE will contaminate less than a gasoline engine (not in therms of CO2, but rather in terms of, for example, sulfur and soot).
No need for a transmission, so less weight and cost/complexity
Easier and faster to refuel than a BEV (goodbye range anxiety)
Smaller batteries (cheaper and lighter)
And many others...
JM2C, YOMV
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Yes we can, yes we have but no it's not necessarily the best choice entirely.
One of the discontinued hybrids basically did that, but with an extra flourish that at highway speeds it connected the petrol motor to the wheels. That avoids the generator-motor inefficiency and in terms of the transmission, it relied on electronic synchronisation and a simple dog clutch.
It was a neat design, from a techincal perspective. Mostly works as a full EV (with either battery or generator power), efficient use of the ICE
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This is a REX (range extender) PHEV. BMW had these in its i3 and Geely uses them in the LEVC (modern London black cab). They work OK, but they still add complexity compared to a full EV, and the battery-only range is always pretty underwhelming. On weight, what you save on the battery, you lose on adding the engine and drivetrain components, so it’s pretty much a wash. And not only do you still have to plug it in quite a lot, you also have to refuel with gas.
I think the main advantage is one you didn
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Chinese batteries are so good and so cheap now that it's not worth putting the ICE in. Use the space for a bigger battery and charge it up every 4 hours of your roadtrip.
Less maintenance, less to go wrong, better internal layout.
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Easier and faster to refuel than a BEV (goodbye range anxiety)
What do you mean by refuelling? As an EV owner it's something I am desperate to know. Are you saying you go somewhere to fill up your car? Why isn't it always full like my EV?
Range anxiety is for the intellectually challenged.
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How?
In the socialist states of kalifornia and warshington (and a few others) these have been depricated by the governments: Natural Gas (as in methane and ethane) and not Liquid Natural Gas (buthane and Propane)
Not much of a future fool.
California and Washington are not the USoA and the USoA is not the world.
Get a passport, travel abroad, study abroad, work abroad, broaden your horizons, learn a second (and a third) language. I know I did, it worked wonders.
No Infrastructure. National Grid Can't Handle It (Score:2, Informative)
Heat waves are always straining out the grid. We can't even keep an interstate maintained yet we are going to build out a whole electrical system for charging cars? Shirley you jest.
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Heat waves are always straining out the grid. We can't even keep an interstate maintained yet we are going to build out a whole electrical system for charging cars? Shirley you jest.
Being that the USoA has a higher percentage of uni-familar houses (as opposed to buildings) means that the theory is that you will use solar and wind (vertical turbines) power to charge a battery in your house, and use saad battery to charge your EVs at night. Failing that, you program your charger to charge the vehicle very late at night, when the grid is less used (most people are sl;eeping, with the lights off, not cooking, watching TV or washinbg and drying clothes).
But, let's be real here, both option
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There is no profit in maintaining infrastructure.
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Tell that to Exxon.
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They haven't built a new refinery in decades. Building refineries doesn't bring short term profits.
Re: No Infrastructure. National Grid Can't Handle (Score:2)
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The population is too stupid to stop electing retarded republicans.
Like the US does (Score:2)
Like the US also does for local EV factories: The US government can talk about their subsidies lowering the cost of US-made EVs. The US also has "incentives" on the purchase of data cables, so the US government can talk about their subsidies lowering the cost of wi-fi and internet, and how US capitalism has lowered prices of wi-fi and internet subscriptions.
Why is everyone looking at me, peculiarly?
climate scientists - speak up (Score:2)
The climate crisis is dire, but is it dire enough to allow in affordable Chinese EVs or can we afford to wait for Tesla to make an affordable Tesla (no sense listing any other US car maker).
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The climate crisis is dire, but is it dire enough to allow in affordable Chinese EVs
If I understand the headlines, we'll all die in flaming agony if we don't immediately do everything possible right now. Apparently "everything possible" means "everything which doesn't cause competition for US firms or negatively affect any US job".
Instead of tariffs subsidize US EV's for consumers (Score:2)
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The US should do exactly what China does, subsidize the industry and the car sales to consumers...
Don't we already do this? I thought the taxpayers kicked in about $7,500 when you buy the right sort of EV (that is, everything but a Tesla S class for reasons).
I have a better idea: drop both the subsidies and tariffs and let customers figure out what vehicles have the right price/feature tradeoff.
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>> drop both the subsidies and tariffs
That surrenders the US market to China, which realizes that renewables and electric vehicles are the future.
Where are all the libertarians... (Score:2)
A whole new world or one just never heard about (Score:2)
Holy shit that Wangyang U8 which I never heard of sounds f*cking awesome! Floats, runs an NVIDIA chip, tank turns, ... yes $150K but still awesome. And the models that writer saw at the auto show in China? Holy f*ck. Yeah I wish those were available in the U.S. instead of being protectionized away, it might bring a wake-up call and they look cool. The one with the 4K dashboard monitor as wide as the car looked cool too.
Dumb (Score:2)
Suicide is not the solution (Score:2)
Purchase a Chinese EV and take your life into your own hands. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
It's worth noting (Score:2)
Geely has owned Volvo since 2010, so their vehicles have a good chance at having good manufacturing/design.
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That's not how China does it.
They throw that 100 billion around far and wide.
The car companies compete with each other. The money ensures they all get a chance.
Later when they are more mature, the subsidies get cut and the worst are allowed to fail. But by then the fierce competition has enabled some very good very lean companies to survive and dominate.
You don't really see all the failures in the media. But for every highly successful Chinese EV company, there are plenty that fell by the wayside.
Your
Re: "Cold war" is sensationalized (Score:2)
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If the US had 500 EV manufacturers, we could also let 80% of them fail. But we only have 3, so 80% would be all of them if you round up.
The problem is we could never manage to have 500 in the first place because our subsidies are not blindly given out, they are crafted to benefit specific well-connected people who contribute back through campaign funding.
China is of course also corrupt, but when every provincial and city government is backing their own EV companies, they circle back to some form of fair com
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This is not a cold (military) war. It's all about economics, about jobs and economic competition and dominance that potentially extends far beyond just cars.
let's clear out some definitions:
"A cold war is a state of conflict between nations that does not involve direct military action but is pursued primarily through economic and political actions, propaganda, acts of espionage or proxy wars waged by surrogates."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
you're welcome.
this is exactly what this is, a cold war, and ev market dominance is just another battle. if what you say about china subsidizing their ev industry is true (i wouldn't trust anything the financial times re
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Not sure what you can get from an auto show to showcase real life build quality
You can't judge reliability that way, but you can examine the fit and finish. Those things tell you a lot about the vehicle. The interior is also very important, as it's where you spend your time.
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This is going to be like the Euro chicken tax tariffs which instead encouraged US automakers to make light trucks and SUVs instead...
Exactly. The summary writes "In effect, the tariffs may end up buying the U.S. some time, rather than being a permanent solution here". Anyone hoping a tariff will be temporary needs to read the history of the Chicken War [wikipedia.org] and tariffs on light trucks.
Re:Can't compete so place huge tarriffs. (Score:5, Interesting)
It reminds me of Dawkins’s metaphor of two hills for natural selection: an animal may have evolved to be at the top of one particular hill, and be reasonably well adapted to its environment, but find there is an impossible chasm between where it is and the top of another hill where it needs to be as the environment changes. I feel like the US has got itself stuck on a very specific hill comprising big SUVs and trucks pushed by manufacturers, pulled by millions of consumers who have now literally bought into celebrating huge vehicles as part of their culture, embedded in law and politics, and the chasm between this and the rest of the world is now uncrossably vast.
Re: Can't compete so place huge tarriffs. (Score:2)
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Russia is a laughing stock that couldn't take a country the size of California with the economy of Mississippi so you can't sell them as a threat either
Indeed. They talked a very good game. A lot of people assumed that the Russian military was a serious business and a major player. And that their military industrial complex was churning out weapons systems that was much cheaper and every bit as good as western kit.
Turns out that on the whole it is not, and even so they're rapidly burning through their preem
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Eh, we lost to the Taliban too. Turns out war is hard.
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Eh, we lost to the Taliban too. Turns out war is hard.
Indeed, but this is somewhat different. It's not asymmetric in the same way. The Ukraine military is a modern military equipped with modern western weaponry, plus a bunch of cold war stuff, their own high tech weapons (and some rather older stuff).
The Taliban weren't engaging in artillery duels, counter battery fire, electronic warfare or strategic strikes 1000km into enemy territory. It's a quite different war. One in which we can see how Russian kit an
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