Follow Slashdot blog updates by subscribing to our blog RSS feed

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Transportation

Will Smarter Cars Bring 'Optimized' Traffic Lights? (apnews.com) 157

Posted by EditorDavid from the Optimized-Signal-as-a-Service dept.
"Researchers are exploring ways to use features in modern cars, such as GPS, to make traffic safer and more efficient," reports the Associated Press.

"Eventually, the upgrades could do away entirely with the red, yellow and green lights of today, ceding control to driverless cars." Among those reimagining traffic flows is a team at North Carolina State University led by Ali Hajbabaie, an associate engineering professor. Rather than doing away with today's traffic signals, Hajbabaie suggests adding a fourth light, perhaps a white one, to indicate when there are enough autonomous vehicles on the road to take charge and lead the way. "When we get to the intersection, we stop if it's red and we go if it's green," said Hajbabaie, whose team used model cars small enough to hold. "But if the white light is active, you just follow the vehicle in front of you."
He points out that this approach could be years aways, since it requires self-driving capability in 40% to 50% of the cars on the road.

But the article notes another approach which could happen sooner, talking to Henry Liu, a civil engineering professor who is leading ">a study through the University of Michigan: They conducted a pilot program in the Detroit suburb of Birmingham using insights from the speed and location data found in General Motors vehicles to alter the timing of that city's traffic lights. The researchers recently landed a U.S. Department of Transportation grant under the bipartisan infrastructure law to test how to make the changes in real time... Liu, who has been leading the Michigan research, said even with as little as 6% of the vehicles on Birmingham's streets connected to the GM system, they provide enough data to adjust the timing of the traffic lights to smooth the flow... "The beauty of this is you don't have to do anything to the infrastructure," Liu said. "The data is not coming from the infrastructure. It's coming from the car companies."

Danielle Deneau, director of traffic safety at the Road Commission in Oakland County, Michigan, said the initial data in Birmingham only adjusted the timing of green lights by a few seconds, but it was still enough to reduce congestion.
"Even bigger changes could be in store under the new grant-funded research, which would automate the traffic lights in a yet-to-be announced location in the county."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Will Smarter Cars Bring 'Optimized' Traffic Lights? More

Will Smarter Cars Bring 'Optimized' Traffic Lights?

Comments Filter:

  • Sure, there are only cars in the traffic (Score:5, Insightful)

    by thesjaakspoiler ( 4782965 ) on Sunday May 12, 2024 @11:00PM (#64467887)

    No pedestrians, bicycles or horse wagons.

    • Or motorbikes (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Viol8 ( 599362 ) on Monday May 13, 2024 @03:20AM (#64468141) Homepage

      Many people forget that these are a popular form of transport , particularly in the far east where they outnumber cars 10 to 1 at least.

      A self drive motorbike is an absurd idea so unless motorbikes are banned in this brave new world of self driving vehicles, the techbro fantasy of robot vehicles neatly intersecting on computer controlled roads will remain just that - a fantasy.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by e3m4n ( 947977 )
        They will likely become single passenger 3-wheelers. I saw one variant where it looked like a motorcycle but had 2 wheels in the front and one wheel in the rear.

      • So if we completely ignore this bit of the summary:

        Liu, who has been leading the Michigan research, said even with as little as 6% of the vehicles on Birmingham's streets connected to the GM system, they provide enough data to adjust the timing of the traffic lights to smooth the flow...

        then yeah I guess we have a problem for you to yell about. Did you not figure that motorbikes can fit comfortably into the 94% of vehicles that were not reporting?

        Or, and just follow the bouncing ball on this - someone makes an aftermarket widget that you clamp to the handle bar on your motorbike that sends your position and speed to the network exactly the same as if you were a car. You know, like we did with GPS navigation systems in cars before they ba

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Viol8 ( 599362 )

          "Try reading, or thinking for half a second please."

          Try taking your own advice mate. Ever wondered how a train of close together self drive cars and 2 wheelers who filter are doing to interact?

      • Personally I DO fantasize about banning those stinky, incredibly noisy and dangerous vehicles off the road and replacing them with electric scooters or electric bikes, but that's just me, and it wouldn't solve the self driving issue (although that's been technically shown in prototypes)

      • More importantly, we already have self-driving cars. They attach to each other, several in a row, typically riding on an electrified, self-guiding road surface. They're known as "trains".

    • Re:Sure, there are only cars in the traffic (Score:5, Insightful)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Monday May 13, 2024 @05:27AM (#64468301) Homepage Journal

      We used to have these "smart" traffic lights. The had a sensor that could tell when a car was getting near or waiting. The sensor could be in the road or mounted on the light (e.g. radar).

      They were particularly good at intersections where one direction was much busier than the others. The busy one could get a permanent green, until someone was actually waiting at the other. Or at the very least, as soon as one road cleared, the lights could change instead of being on a timer and waiting for nobody.

      I'm not sure why we stopped using them. Probably cost.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by e3m4n ( 947977 )
        The turn lanes still use them. At least where I live. We also used to have a a PV sensor that eould change the lights if an emergency vehicle came through. It was triggered by the strobe light on too of the vehicles. Those got removed because people learned how to wave a flashlight to trigger a green light.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          The sensors for emergency vehicles are now infrared and rely on sending specific patterns. You can send the same codes with a Flipper Zero and suitable IR emitter board (it has to be pretty bright to work).

          Yet another technology that relies on people not knowing how it works or being able to cheaply build the hardware to spoof it.

      • The road leading from my house has one of those at the junction with the main road.
        The traffic lights that let me out onto the main road are red at all times, except when someone approaches the junction, then it starts the sequence that leads to it going green to let them out.

        • Its anywhere you see a "Stop Here On Red" sign, and the sign is telling you exactly where your vehicle needs to be to trigger the sensor.

          I wish more people knew this.
          • I wish more people knew this.

            Agreed. I see many people every day who stop their vehicle one or more car lengths behind the white line. Getting on their rear bumper generally induces them to move forward.

            • Agreed. I see many people every day who stop their vehicle one or more car lengths behind the white line. Getting on their rear bumper generally induces them to move forward.

              Yeah, it seems a LOT of folks driving big SUVs or Pickup trucks...do not know where the nose of their car actually is....

              Sitting that high, they are stopping far short of the line because they're just going by how it looks from up there...not realizing they need to pull forward to actually hit the line.

              It's annoying as hell.

              Often if

          • Its anywhere you see a "Stop Here On Red" sign, and the sign is telling you exactly where your vehicle needs to be to trigger the sensor.

            I wish more people knew this.

            A subset of those signs in my area also have a special light hanging that illuminates once the sensor is triggered. It makes it easy to see that you have stopped at the correct spot.

      • Nowadays, it's usually done with cameras and 'motion detection' software.
        If you are observant you may see cameras mounted on many traffic lights.

        Source: my buddy who manages the local traffic dept. I was trying to get a metro fibre network up, and he wanted access to connect his cameras. And i wanted access to his conduit which was already installed - although not always big enough. And he wanted rack space in my server room. Etc.

        Anyways it's a pretty impressive little system.

      • they are still in use in Virginia right now.

      • These types of in-road sensors are everywhere in metro areas of Texas. Nearly every intersection that has a traffic light, relies on these sensors. You can tell when one of them is malfunctioning, because a random left-tern arrow will stay green for a LONG time.

      • We used to have these "smart" traffic lights. The had a sensor that could tell when a car was getting near or waiting. The sensor could be in the road or mounted on the light (e.g. radar).

        They were particularly good at intersections where one direction was much busier than the others. The busy one could get a permanent green, until someone was actually waiting at the other. Or at the very least, as soon as one road cleared, the lights could change instead of being on a timer and waiting for nobody.

        I'm not sure why we stopped using them. Probably cost.

        I see them fairly often. I think there's two main reasons they're not used more often.

        1) It's a bit of a niche scenario, if both roads get lots of traffic they both get timed lights, and if one road gets way more traffic the other just gets a stop sign. There's a narrow band of traffic imbalance where it makes sense.

        2) If people don't know about the pad they can end up waiting a really long time for the light to change, and drivers who know about the pad are sometimes creeping around trying to find it if th

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Terwin ( 412356 )

      Not to worry, some places will pay to install all the hardware then either not turn it on, or adjust it to make traffic worse.
      Austin does this because they want to be a walkable/bikeable city, ignoring everyone who lives outside the city limits and comes in for work.(and cannot vote for city council).
      Apparently they took the opening scene of office space and though that would be a good way to encourage walking, even if you live 20+ miles outside the city limits.

      • Just playing devil's advocate here: why would the people in the city want to do anything to make their own lives worse to improve the lives of people that live outside the city and don't pay for the infrastructure, and don't have votes with which to let their opinions known?

        There was once a mayoral election in Portland, Oregon where one of the candidates put up billboards along congested traffic corridors saying "if ${CANDIDATE} was mayor, you'd be home by now!" - unfortunately for him, all the people sitti

    • Now only if there was a way to pre-empt the signal changes for an event such as a manual button press, where the button is strapped to a physical pole holding the traffic signals up...

  • In theory no stop is required (Score:4, Insightful)

    by LindleyF ( 9395567 ) on Sunday May 12, 2024 @11:17PM (#64467907)
    You just need enough space between vehicles for a vehicle on the other road to pass through. That requires precision timing though. Or we could just do roundabouts everywhere.

    • Cars weaving through each other in cross traffic as guided by gps and AI.

      What could possibly go wrong?

    • > That requires precision timing though.

      And 0% chance of mechanical failure.

      OR consciously make the lives/efficiency tradeoff.

      Some people would accept that.

    • Or we could just do roundabouts everywhere.

      I fucking HATE roundabouts....

      Thankfully not many of them around, but in some newer areas I've driving they're trying them out...ugh.

      • Roundabouts are bad when poorly done (or when people don't know how to use them). The best design I've seen is a 2-lane circle. The outer lane is only ever used for turning right, and you need to be in the right lane at the entrance. That way, the inner lane can enter and exit at will and never has to worry about crossing traffic on the outer lane.

      • That's because the roundabouts you're using are either poorly engineered, or the people in them have no fucking clue what they're doing.

        Roundabouts in Europe work really well, because European drivers know how to use things and aren't selfish shitbags that cut everyone off because of their own self-importance like basically 99% of drivers in the US.

        The reason why roundabouts don't work in the US, is because of US drivers. Think of that guy who sees that a lane is closed ahead, and instead of merging where

    • Please define how such a system could "fail safe" or even operate without 100% coverage of all entities moving through an intersection, including bicyclists and pedestrians.

      Seems like if the timing is off by even a little bit, which would be 100% of pedestrian crossings, someone is getting killed.

    • You haven't experienced Houston or LA traffic, have you! There are many, many intersections where there are multiple lanes, with a never-ending stream of traffic in multiple lanes at once. If there weren't a protected left turn arrow, in some places you could wait for hours for a gap in traffic large enough to allow a left turn.

  • pedestrians under / overpass will be needed.

  • Sure (Score:3)

    by sosume ( 680416 ) on Sunday May 12, 2024 @11:27PM (#64467921) Journal

    All traffic lights will be green for me once I figure out their algorithm

  • I think, for this to work, we'd need "self-driving with no manual override available".

  • yeah right, maybe in "20 years"... (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward

    where I live its still common to stop at a red when no one else is even at the intersection, and wait a minute or more.

    It is 2024. They've managed to put cameras all over the place for purposes of raising revenue, ie ticketing people who run red lights. However they can't seem to use those same cameras for purposes of improving traffic flow. It is the simplest thing in the world that if I'm the only car at the intersection or approaching, I should get a green light.

    Add on top that driverless cars only

    • No, they didn't put the cameras up for the purpose of rising revenue. They put them to stop people like you driving past at red light. Red is red. There is no allowance for others not entering the junction yet.

    • They've managed to put cameras all over the place for purposes of raising revenue, ie ticketing people who run red lights. However they can't seem to use those same cameras for purposes of improving traffic flow

      This is because of the arrogance of city planners and traffic engineers. They think the know better than everyone else and force their "solutions" on everyone, even when that "solution" has been shown to be inefficient or dangerous. Take the process they use to set speed limits, for example.
      Almost all traffic engineers do a terrible, un-scientific job and this will only give them more power to do an even worse job more powerfully.

  • The car should be able to negotiate the stop based on trajectory determination and communication with the oncoming traffic. If there is no communication with the other vehicles or objects that are on collision trajectory then it should stop. Otherwise follow some protocol for slowing down or whatever.

    • That's the point of the article, the light changes to white to indicate the autonomous cars can have at it and human drivers just follow the lead, but revert to standard behavior when humans or human operated vehicles are in a position not to have a free for all.

      I don't think it'll be worth it, or at least there's lower hanging fruit we haven't bothered to do (shortening green lights when no incoming traffic as detected by cameras for example)

  • Small steps get to the goal (Score:3)

    by paulidale ( 6575732 ) on Sunday May 12, 2024 @11:52PM (#64467957)
    I'd like to see a long line of cars start at virtually the same time after the light goes green. This would save everyone a lot of time. Once this is achieved, we can think about more autonomy and traffic light removal.

  • So ransomware stops all traffic (Score:3)

    by rapjr ( 732628 ) on Monday May 13, 2024 @01:08AM (#64468025)
    or makes it ignore any rules at all. And everyone's location history gets tracked and stolen by China so they can blackmail politicians, police, military officers, diplomatic personnel, and CEO's.
    • and what sort of pressure would need to be exerted for cars with drivers to become verboten

      meanwhile... kids on bikes exist
  • Sounds like a rather complicated, elaborate, error-prone, problematic, expensive, & very inefficient way to implement an urban public transport system. Why no just use buses, trams, metro, light rail, & taxis? Or would that be too easy?

    • Re:Public transport (Score:5, Insightful)

      by iAmWaySmarterThanYou ( 10095012 ) on Monday May 13, 2024 @03:53AM (#64468191)

      Because as has been discussed countless times, public transport doesn't go to/from where people need and sucks if you need to carry more than a small bag. Public transport has very few ideal use cases and countless less than ideal or entirely useless cases.

      The idea that my 85 year old mom is going to walk 3 blocks, wait for a bus, switches busses 3 times, then walk 3 more blocks and then reverse the process to get home from her cancer treatment is ridiculous. Maybe she should ride a bike?

      Healthy people with limited use cases forget they are not the norm.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by skam240 ( 789197 )

        Sorry to hear about your moms problems but there are dozens of countries with low rates of car ownership. I doubt their elderly just get left to die with no medical attention because they dont have access to cars. Mortality rates certainly dont seem to support that.

      • Because as has been discussed countless times, public transport doesn't go to/from where people need and sucks if you need to carry more than a small bag. Public transport has very few ideal use cases and countless less than ideal or entirely useless cases.

        Found the American. Europeans, many of whom don't even own a car are laughing at how absurdly stupid your view is.

        • Found the European who has no grasp how large, and open, the U.S. can be. Cities are about the only place where public transportation can really work. Once you get to the suburbs you're relegated to shopping centers and not your Aunt May's house for public transportation.

          And the OP is correct. You can only carry a bag or two on a bus/tram/whatever, unlike having a car where you can fill your trunk and even the backseat if necessary. Making multiple trips each week is time consuming and not everyone has

          • They don't understand our country is different. They think this is just like Europe but with stupid people. They can't understand why we do things differently here. Our stupidity is the only explanation they can conceive of. The arrogance, ignorance and elitism they display makes me laugh at how "absurdly stupid their view is".

        • Found the American. Europeans, many of whom don't even own a car are laughing at how absurdly stupid your view is.

          It's only stupid if you are an European that has no concept of how US cities and the country is laid out as a whole.

          Everyone here is NOT in a densely packed urban center where public transport generally seems to work....

          The US is a very large country, and the majority of the land is not occupied by dense urban type cities...not to mention the extreme diversity of weather, and land type spread

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by havana9 ( 101033 )
        With public transportation you could catch a lot of cases, that are the majority of the traffic needs. If you're in Milan and have to travel to Rome, you can choose high speed train, or normal train, or can take a jet. There's also a motorway and the trip is 5/6 hours. But a lot of people prefers to take the high speed train or the airplane because it' faster, a bit more than four hours with the train, and the airplane it's 1 hour plus check in and going to the airport. And if you're a frequent flyer both t
      • Well, and your 85yo mom undergoing chemo shouldn't drive at all, so your point is?
      • This article is about urban traffic control. You know, densely populated areas where public transport is the preferable option 9/10 of the time. I deliberately included the word "urban" in my response; Did you not see it?

        Around the world, public mass transportation in urban areas -- Yes, there's that word again "urban" in case you missed it -- is a well-proven first choice for getting the vast majority of people from A to B. Getting that many cars off the roads also frees up more space & less congest

        • I saw it. My mom and I live live in an urban area. She still needs ride to her doctor's. There is no way in Hell she can get there on public transit.

          When public transit is brought up to the same level of convenience as driving which will require a near complete rebuild of our civilian transit system lemme know. Until then driving is the only option for her doctor's, shopping trips, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

          My kid takes the school bus. I don't drive her. It provides A->B->A transit on a

  • Seems like over engineering (Score:3)

    by Epeeist ( 2682 ) on Monday May 13, 2024 @02:14AM (#64468077) Homepage

    Here in Scotland, the majority of traffic lights are fitted with cameras. Traffic flow is automatically adjusted, depending on the number of vehicles on each of the approach roads.

  • What's the point of having a car if you can't control it the way you want? Having a car is about flexibility and freedom. Instead of self-driving cars we need better flow control, highly dynamic light systems that can sense approaching cars, etc.

  • Having a red-green colour deficiency where I'm green weak, green already looks white.

    Now, I'm in the UK so rely on identifying a traffic light vs a street lamp via it's design, thus I then can know a white light is green and that is coupled with the lights position, which is of course on the bottom, always.

    How does this affect US drivers? I'd say that instead of white, it should be blue, as that colour is entirely unambiguous (although tritans may have a problem) as it is not currently used on any lights I

  • Everyone goes at the same time without stopping and coordinate avoidance with car-to-car "TCAS".
  • Betteridge says... no.

  • My $49 security cameras do object segmentation well enough to eliminate those two-minute red lights with noone else around except for the autistic cop hiding in the bushes.

    That technology is good enough to optimize lights with 80% of the benefit and will continue to improve, getting times down (e.g. traffic wave approaching light about to turn yellow).

    The last 20% needs realtime tracking and remote shutdown of all vehicles - which is the true goal of many technocrats.

    Be on guard.

  • Yes but only in Europe (Score:3)

    by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Monday May 13, 2024 @06:28AM (#64468365)

    Not in the USA where infrastructure is a dirty word and traffic lights are still largely time based and pattern based like they were designed by some kind of Amish farmer.

    For smart infrastructure go check out the Netherlands, where it's not abnormal to see green yellow and red lights all on at the same time, or pedestrians on one side having a green and the other still a red because the system intelligently knows how many people, bicycles, cars are where, and who is able to cross safely at any given time.

    • Well, for a pedestrian or cyclist the best strategy is just to ignore the light and look around and cross whenever there is no traffic. Not every country has those insane 'jaywalking' laws...
  • The idea of more efficient traffic and smart lights is not new. Anyone who has been in the military will tell you that one of the first things you learn to do is march as a column. When you take a step forward you know the guy in front of you wont be there when your foot lands. Everyone moves as a single unit in unison. Before that people would wait for the person in front of then to move first like a bunch of worms or a slinky. All of this is possible. What prevents it is the depravity of humanity. We have

  • ...but require fancy automation for them?

  • You really only need smart sensor placement and a little intelligence instead of trying to do what America does and dumb down reasonably capable controllers into what a 1930s relay system can do. The Dutch solved for all modes [youtube.com], all without having "smart" cars. They also have the concept of "negative yellow light time" where lights will start to change the moment it's no longer possible to interfere based on travel time in the intersection, which you can see demonstrated a few times in this video [youtube.com]. They al

  • Privacy issues (Score:3)

    by sabt-pestnu ( 967671 ) on Monday May 13, 2024 @09:54AM (#64468761)

    > "The data is not coming from the infrastructure. It's coming from the car companies."

    Did nobody else see this?

    At what point will we not be able to opt out of sending all our data to the car companies (and from there to insurance, advertising, political activism (think: abortion access), private investigations, blackmail (we know about that floosie on 39th, want us to tell your wife?), whatever.

  • ...life would be so much better. Don't you see?!!

  • "But if the white light is active, you just follow the vehicle in front of you."

    People seem already unable to distinguish between red and green and I don't mean the color-blind.

Slashdot Top Deals

"Everyone's head is a cheap movie show." -- Jeff G. Bone

Close