UK Police Could Get Ghostbusters-style Backpack Devices To Halt Ebike Getaways (theguardian.com) 98
Police officers in Britain could be armed with Ghostbusters-style devices that fire electromagnetic rays to shut down the engines of ebikes being used in a crime. From a report: Gavin Stephens, chair of the National Police Chiefs' Council (NPCC), said the weapon was in development and could be months away from being available, though it is expected to be longer than that. He said it would be housed in a backpack, reminiscent of the equipment used in the Ghostbusters series of movies. It could tackle crime linked to newer vehicles such as electric bikes and electric scooters.
The device is being developed with the Defence Science and Technology Lab, which is overseen by the Ministry of Defence, alongside other technological innovations that British police are hoping to use. It would fire an electromagnetic pulse at a vehicle that an officer wants to stop because the rider is suspected of involvement in a crime. The electromagnetic weapon works by tricking the engine into thinking it is overheating, which shuts down the engine and brings the vehicle to a stop. It requires a line of sight to work, Stephens said.
Stephens told a media briefing: "Basically, it interferes with the electric motor, to trick the electric motor into thinking it is overheating. It sends a signal to confuse the electric motor. All these electric motors apparently have an inbuilt safety system that if it thinks it's overheating, it shuts down. At the minute, it's like a ginormous backpack." The equipment was demonstrated to police leaders at the Farnborough technology show earlier this year. Stephens said: "They were also telling me it has the potential to be useful with normal combustion engine vehicles."
The device is being developed with the Defence Science and Technology Lab, which is overseen by the Ministry of Defence, alongside other technological innovations that British police are hoping to use. It would fire an electromagnetic pulse at a vehicle that an officer wants to stop because the rider is suspected of involvement in a crime. The electromagnetic weapon works by tricking the engine into thinking it is overheating, which shuts down the engine and brings the vehicle to a stop. It requires a line of sight to work, Stephens said.
Stephens told a media briefing: "Basically, it interferes with the electric motor, to trick the electric motor into thinking it is overheating. It sends a signal to confuse the electric motor. All these electric motors apparently have an inbuilt safety system that if it thinks it's overheating, it shuts down. At the minute, it's like a ginormous backpack." The equipment was demonstrated to police leaders at the Farnborough technology show earlier this year. Stephens said: "They were also telling me it has the potential to be useful with normal combustion engine vehicles."
Dumb idea (Score:5, Insightful)
So, to stop a guy on an E-Bike, they're gonna fire an EMP in the general direction of the guy, frying every electronic device in the area? Computers, mobile phones, tablets, etc, etc, all destroyed.
What could POSSIBLY go wrong with this idea???
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What could POSSIBLY go wrong with this idea???
Bike safety laws and common engineering sense on the part of the bike manufacturers making the "EMP device" impossible? Does an "EMP device" that can stop a vehicle even exist? I've seen it in the movies, but with my inadequate antenna knowledge I fail to see how you can make a reliable "EMP stopper" outside of the traditional way, which disables a whole country.
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Technically though, it's not difficult. Field collapse across a coil will attempt to push the voltage to infinity. With big enough caps behind it, and a directional antenna, you can have all kinds of fun.
The real question is, does it also have the (un?)intended side effect of stopping (permanently) anyone escaping (or unfortunate enough to be there) with a pacemaker, or ICD.
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If it works, it should.
But "technically not difficult" I disagree with. The big-bang EMP allegedly works (not sure how much, as I haven't heard of real-life tests), because it is brute force, it attempts every wavelength with enormous power, hoping to pump enough into a system not designed to handle that much.
With a coil and a cap you have all kinds of limitations, especially when targeting multiple motorcycles, each having their own reception idiosyncrasies.
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Ah, I'd forgotten this one: https://spectrum.ieee.org/one-... [ieee.org]
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If it works, it should.
I don't know if I buy that line of reasoning.
It's quite easy to make a rather dangerous laser weapon. Doesn't mean they're more practical than a normal firearm, and you don't see them in circulation.
Just because a thing can be done, that doesn't mean it's been commercialized.
But "technically not difficult" I disagree with.
You're free to, but it's simply not difficult, again, technically. Engineering wise, achieving power density that does what you want may indeed be tricky. But these days, with a large backpack, it's not difficult to imagine several MW
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It's an arms race between your ability to generate and emit power, your ability to force the target to receive it, and the target's ability to dissipate it.
FTFY.
The "classic" EMP has the advantage that a nuclear explosion sends out a lot of EM energy from radio to gamma rays, so the "receiving" part is taken care of by the very wide emission spectrum, which makes it likely that if there is a gap in your shielding, something, and perhaps a lot of it, will be pumped in and then you'll hit your other limits, but actually much of that energy does absolutely nothing EMP-wise.
With a backpack-powered device, you're very limited in the power availability part, power e
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FTFY.
No, you certainly did not.
Transmission is literally a word for the generation and emission of said power.
As for the target's ability to receive it, the reception is guaranteed. Everything is an antenna, at some level.
It's a question of attenuation and power.
100dB of attenuation on -1000dBw of power is still melted metal.
The "classic" EMP has the advantage that a nuclear explosion sends out a lot of EM energy from radio to gamma rays, so the "receiving" part is taken care of by the very wide emission spectrum, which makes it likely that if there is a gap in your shielding, something, and perhaps a lot of it, will be pumped in and then you'll hit your other limits, but actually much of that energy does absolutely nothing EMP-wise.
This is patently untrue.
A nuclear EMP is dangerous not due to the spectrum, but simply due to the field strength. Up to 100s of kV/m.
But I see that the damage has been limited, and the recovery wasn't delayed much, and that was even before EMP was considered a credible threat.
Starfish Prime was a relatively small pulse- 5.6kV/m
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This is patently untrue.
Okay. I guess everyone that sells "shielding" to the military is a snake-oil peddler then :)))
Some radar systems mounted on fighter jets are lethal to humans at tens of meters. Humans are highly transparent to radar.
Radar systems are lethal to humans the same way a microwave oven is lethal to humans. There is something in the human that is absorbed and generates heat, which cooks the said human. Typically it is water molecules. Electronics die differently :)
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What's to stop terrorists, or anyone ill-doer from making EMP guns...and causing havoc by stopping cars and trucks anywhere they wish?
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Doesn't matter if a car is EV or not... there are a ton of electronics in all modern cars and trucks, so an EMP would disable pretty much any vehicle, EV or ICE.
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It's probably the fact that motors are made to dissipate large amounts of energy. The issue with the EMP gun is that, A.) Most cars are made of metal, which would shunt the moving electrical field, and B.) an electric motor would convert an induced current into a torque differential. So, depending on the polarity, an EMP which manages to get around the metal box is just going to be converted into a small acceleration or deceleration.
Because motors of the size necessary to move a vehicle deal with movin
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I know a number of people that keep older cars, in great running condition JUST to have something to drive in case a wide spread EMP happens.
And with cars a couple decades back...you can protect them, or fix them....it's the more modern ones that too much electronics in them that are at risk.
I'd have to think a full blown EV would just be more vu
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Pretty much the same thing that prevents them from scattering caltrops on the road to puncture tires. Or stealing road signs. It's pretty easy to create traffic chaos if that's your goal.
Yeah, I know a number of crazy people, too. Ask w
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Okay. I guess everyone that sells "shielding" to the military is a snake-oil peddler then :)))
Not at all, but a little bit of reading will quickly lead you to the truth of the matter- EM shielding, like ballistic shielding, comes with a set of physical restraints for what it can stop.
EM shield can be overpowered by.... more power.
Radar systems are lethal to humans the same way a microwave oven is lethal to humans. There is something in the human that is absorbed and generates heat, which cooks the said human. Typically it is water molecules.
You missed the point.
Nothing is truly transparent.
Radar systems come in a broad range of bands. Even water-transparent bands will kill a human at high enough powers.
This is because there is no such thing as complete transparency to a wavelength of photon. Attenuation is
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You missed the point.
No, you missed it and long ago, too :)
Yes, and no.
Definitely yes.
Not all photons are equal. Mechanisms of action in different energy ranges differ vastly. Therefore, a universal backpack-mountable operational EMP will not exist, at least not until Mr. Fusion is available. But then everyone will have one, and most will die when the first one is used :)
This means the worst antenna in the world for a specific wavelength can still have a fatal current inducted into it by a passing wave of sufficient power.
Which is what was written in my first post already, as those who possess the gift of reading comprehension already know.
Sadly, you're not among them. :)
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No, you missed it and long ago, too :)
No, I didn't. Your basing your entire argument from a completely incorrect premise- that there are materials that are transparent to photon interactions. This is false.
Definitely yes.
:)
Not all photons are equal. Mechanisms of action in different energy ranges differ vastly. Therefore, a universal backpack-mountable operational EMP will not exist, at least not until Mr. Fusion is available. But then everyone will have one, and most will die when the first one is used
Yes, and no.
The fundamental interaction is identical for all photon interactions. That is a fact- and an unavoidable one.
Faraday's law comes from Maxwell's equations and the Lorentz force.
The classical rules acknowledge the fact that conductive materials behave differently at the macroscopic level (i.e., what happens *after* the quantum in
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The Soviets had developed an EMP device that could be made in a standard machine shop and fit in a cargo van in the 1970s, after the country collapsed the plans ended up in the wild. Think about the effect of that set off in the Vegas Strip.
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Somebody saw "Oceans [whatever]"...
Re: Dumb idea (Score:2)
??? Ok, not me, though. I used to used the example of setting it off on Wall Street, but that stuff all is in the cloud now.
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I'll have to see the plans to believe "the Soviets" made something that fit on a platform smaller than a ZIL-130. Do you have a link?
Re: Dumb idea (Score:2)
Oh, gods, it was back around the turn of the century, before your every mouse click was tracked by Fatherland Security. There was a FYP site that make the Anarchists Cookbook look like a Christmas card. I'm sure that it's been scrubbed long ago.
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Hahaha, I remember that vaguely. I recall they had a "survival guide", but I don't recall the plans. Good old times.
Probably something like this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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It's quite easy to make a rather dangerous laser weapon.
This is not a very correct analogy. The laser weapon is easy - the damage mechanism is absorption of light, which generates heat, and the heat does the damage. As long as you don't have an effective mirror, it works. The EMP mechanism is different, so it is harder and more complex.
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As long as you don't have an effective mirror, it works.
Remember what I said about it being a simple matter of power.
There's no mirror that will survive even a microsecond burst from a MW laser.
The EMP mechanism is different, so it is harder and more complex.
It's a function of wavelength. At the mm range, there's no electric motor on the planet that won't absorb those photons and turn them into a current.
Just one example. There are more. [wikipedia.org]
Photons are photons. The absorption doesn't need to be perfect. It doesn't even need to be good if the power is high enough.
In my industry, we deal with shitty photon transmission charac
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Photons are photons. The absorption doesn't need to be perfect.
No, "photons" are not "photons". The EMP works because the EM field causes charge spikes inside the electronics, which exceed the electric tolerance of parts of the device, if you're lucky to be able to create it. The laser works, because its optical photons are absorbed completely, raising the temperature of the exposed object. The gammas kill shit by ionizing it at low energies - at high energies they may not even notice there's an object in the way.
Generating pulses that cause damage is far from trivial
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Won't surprise me at all, really. And it will be wrapped in "AI" "FSD" bullshit, so people will line up to have it.
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"They turned off my battery" Frito (Idiocracy) https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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No, "photons" are not "photons".
Yes, they are.
The EMP works because the EM field causes charge spikes inside the electronics, which exceed the electric tolerance of parts of the device, if you're lucky to be able to create it.
An EM field is just a name for the interaction that happens between conductive materials and photons.
It's directly analogous to the absorption of a photon that causes heat.
The laser works, because its optical photons are absorbed completely, raising the temperature of the exposed object.
Photons are photons. There is no difference between an optical photon and a radio photon, other than their energy, which is a precise ratio to their wavelength.
What happens when the atom absorbs that photon is the difference.
Non-conductive materials that can't shed an electron easily will warm up. Conductive materials wil
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In theory its fairly straight forward, I had a physics lecturer scribble a circuit design to build one on the back of a napkin for me while discussing an actually similar project that got shut down by govt intelligence at our university for creating a car stopper for cops to try and put an end to dangerous car chases, back in the 1990s.
But I have my reservations as to whether its "safe" or not. Anything that instantly locks up the motor stands a great chance of causing serious injuries to scooter riders by
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Yeah, the theory is always straightforward, EM is just the 4 Maxwell equations.
The only small problem is that most of the time it is not only hard to solve them, but to even write them down well enough for a given problem. And in this case you have a new problem every time this device has to be applied.
That said, I come here for the headlines. My prediction is that eventually there will be a legal remote switch in every vehicle that will work 100%. We'll see.
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My prediction is that eventually there will be a legal remote switch in every vehicle that will work 100%. We'll see.
Don't be silly. The police's, diplomats', politicians' and rich peoples' vehicles will be exempt.
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No, as usual, someone will always hold the key to switch their car off. How would they keep them in line otherwise :)
Re: Dumb idea (Score:2)
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The idea of an EMP stopping most vehicles is to fry (or at least reset) the onboard computer that controls the fuel injection system. These are normally controlled by an old-style slow CPU with a die size similar to a 80486, so they're naturally fairly resistant to a pulse, so the EMP device has to be pretty powerful. That's why the things aren't used, they'll toast pretty much any more modern processor in the area, including the cop's own.
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Sorry i am still stuck on a thermal overload shutoff device thinking. It has two states. On or off. When it gets hot it opens and disconnects. No thinking involved.
However, Thats not indifferent from generative AI thinking.
So a focused thermal /infrared beam? You cant focus an EMP that way, possiblly a high poweredexterwmly directional radio antenna, that ends up dumping thermal load into the target .
No meat no thought nor even valid description.
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I imagine it could also be a microwave pulse that makes the temperature sensor (or the current sensor) go nuts for a brief second, triggering the emergency off without actual heating.
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Can probably be used to warm up Bangers and Mash for supper, so not a total loss.
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You cant focus an EMP that way
You can, like you can direct the transmission of any (reasonable) photons.
Think of it this way- a radio works by electromagnetic radio inciting a current in a conductor.
Enough photons, and you can incite an impressive current. There are considerations as to wavelength and what will be picked up, by conductors of what lengths, and at some point, your directional EMP becomes a directed energy weapon in its own right, but it's perfectly doable.
That being said, I *am* inclined to think this isn't EMP. The
Re:Dumb idea (Score:5, Funny)
What could POSSIBLY go wrong with this idea???
Given how much battery power must be in those backpacks, and how easy it is for the police to wipe out chasing people on ebikes, I’d say they better not cross any streams.
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yeah.
unlicensed particle accelerators, or go home!
EM is for wimps . . .
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High power EMF passes through a faraday cage like butter.
Judging from the size of the backpacks, these aren't cell phone transmitters.
Re: Dumb idea (Score:2)
Just make a hardwired circuit and add your own temp readout if you care.
Easy peasy. Easy to test too until you get it right. You need far less power if right near the motor to test your anti shutoff override.
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While it's certainly possible to override its shutdown protocols, it may be very far from simple.
These aren't simple DC motors. They're brushless motors with controllers built into them. Fooling them (while having them continue to work at all) might be a real challenge.
Counter point (Score:1, Offtopic)
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Plus everyone on the scene has guns and the risk of friendly fire is so high because face it the armed guy standing behind you with a gun is a high school passout with 2 months training.
It's in the title that this is for UK cops. They are renowned for *not* carrying guns.
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Re: Dumb idea (Score:2)
Lithium battery fires (Score:2)
No Electronics Destroyed (Score:2)
I suspect the way it works is to get the motor coils to act as an antenna which picks up the EMP. The increase in current through the motor i
Re: Dumb idea (Score:1)
Do EBikes have pedals? Do they still work when the motor has stopped? Are the cops only going be to catching the lardiest of crims'
Re: Dumb idea (Score:1)
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What is even funnier is that the dollar value of the crimes in total will be less than the costs of these "backpacks".
Authoritarianism authorizes this expense.
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You'd think they might be better off with a bow and arrow type solution that shoots arrows with a rope tether on them. Shoot it into the wheels, rider is instantly ejected and you get to retrieve your arrow to use it again. Oh, and at most, one other person gets shot, a bit painfully for sure though.
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Try one of these instead:
https://wrap.com/bolawrap/ [wrap.com]
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Oops sorry, my disrespect for those that walk around in public with a phone glued to their nose is showing.
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It doesn't fry anything, it "trick[s] the electric motor into thinking it is overheating".
I'm sure it's better than firing a gun "in the general direction of the guy, [killing] every[body] in the area".
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I wonder if pacemakers are vulnerable.
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Feel sorry for anyone with pacemakers, insulin pumps or oxygen concentrators in the homes the riders are riding past.
I mean what are the odds other people are in the area an e-bike is being ridden in....
Do the police ... (Score:5, Funny)
need to play the music as well ?
Good against pacemakers too (Score:4, Insightful)
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Good point, that. Not that I care about a thief's pacemaker.
Of course it might be the end of all those great Youtube police chase videos! I _do_ love me a good PIT!
Who are you gonna call? (Score:1)
Don't cross the streams. (Score:2)
What happens if they cross the streams ???
Are the police going to take responsibility for that ???
Nuclear is finally here (Score:2)
Nuclear power finally becomes a contributor to Renewable Energy. Not directly, but as the power source for a device to ensure the proper use of E-bicycles in our crime-ridden cities. No longer will criminals be able to flee on E-bikes, because the police bobbies -- who are not allowed to carry guns -- will each be wearing an unlicensed nuclear reactor backpack to power their anti-E-bike EMP rayguns!
When there's something bad
In the neighborhood
And the E-bike crook
Steals your livelihood
Who you gonna call?
I ai
Aren't EBikes ... (Score:2)
Unless of course the bad guys have bypassed the speed limiter. In which case, they will just override the thermal protection as well.
Re:Aren't EBikes ... (Score:4, Informative)
Road-legal e-bikes are - or more precisely, the assistance cuts out, you can still go as fast as you want on pedal power, if your legs are up to it. But it's not difficult to buy "Off road only" e-bikes which don't comply with the limits - I've seem ones advertised with 1000W motors rather than the 250W road-legal limit, and no limiters. They're not obviously visibly different to the road-legal versions, so it's difficult for Police to stop people riding them illegally. And assuming that criminals are going to stick to the laws limiting e-bikes is rather optimistic.
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I could see cops loving this (Score:2)
electronic warfare (Score:2)
All EMP jokes aside, isn't this something very like the weapons they have to disable drones? Or do those just work by jamming their radios (remote control, GPS)? How directed are these anti-Ebike rayguns going to be? Because it seems most likely that they will affect cars, watches, pacemakers, insulin pumps, phones, iPads, laptops, Wifi routers, traffic lights, TVs, radios, security sysetms, electronic signs, cash registers and other terminals, the doors on buildings, power supplies, ovens and any appliance
Re: electronic warfare (Score:2)
So what the fuck really is this weapon
A divining rod repurposed from bomb detector to tractor beam.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]
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How about a more compact, and more targeted device (Score:1)
Part of the reason the thing is huge you have to think is something to do with required range abilities, maybe mandating something like a 100 ft range.
That's a tremendous amount of power because of how rapidly electrical energy drops at a distance.
But what if you could guarantee being about four feet away before activating, without a need to aim? Then maybe the device could be small enough to be mounted on a drone that used AI and cameras to get as close as possible to a marked target before going off. It
....And then what? (Score:2)
Even if you could successfully stall a scooter, the culprit will still be thirty feet ahead from you, and he doesn't have to lug around a sixty pound backpack during the resulting foot chase.
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What foot chase? You've disabled the motor, but the pedals still work. And even with an unfit rider and the dead-weight of the electrics, you're not going to catch a cyclist on foot.
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Not a problem a bazooka can't solve.
Crime doesn't pay, folks (Score:2)
Shower the suspects with some hard gamma rays. This should teach them.
OAP massacre? (Score:1)
There's lots of old age pensioners on the UK, pace makers galore...
Does the UK the law on murder have a provision for 'recklessness' like NZ does?
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I don't know how UK cops are with innocent bystanders, but over here they aren't careful at all. And also not personally liable for harming innocent bystanders while performing their duties.
Drones (Score:2)
It would be easier to fake it than do it for real (Score:2)
This would be simple to fake for a demonstration. This guy doesn't sound like he's any kind of engineer: "these electric motors apparently have an inbuilt safety system that if it thinks it's overheating, it shuts down."
So you could probably just put a little RF remote in a modified ebike, and even if you opened the bike for inspection during the demo it probably wouldn't be noticed. Or you coud modify an ebike's firmware to accept a remote shutdown, then there would be NO physical evidence of tampering.
OK,
Breaking Away. (Score:2)
Catch bikes? Be a better biker and toss a frame pump into their front wheel. Catch eBikes? Get a faster eBike and throw a frame pump into their spokes. No need for fancy weapons. This is a solved problem. Research: The movie Breaking Away.
why not require license plate/tag (Score:3)
Once everyone has a numbered tag on their bike, then an officer can take a photo and the court can send the idiot a fine or summons.
If people have bikes without tags, start arresting the owners or confiscating bikes you find. After you take a few expensive bikes people will adjust their behavior.
As always, XKCD got here first (Score:2)
What's wrong with shoving a baton in the bike spokes? [xkcd.com]
Great idea! (Score:2)
color me skeptical (Score:2)
electromagnetic rays? (Score:2)
Zap, zap. Gotchya, you're it.