Visa Debuts New Product Designed To Make It Safer To Pay Directly From Bank Account (cnbc.com) 86
Visa said it plans to launch a dedicated service for bank transfers, skipping credit cards and the traditional direct debit process. From a report: Visa, which alongside Mastercard is one of the world's largest card networks, said Thursday it plans to launch a dedicated service for account-to-account (A2A) payments in Europe next year. Users will be able set up direct debits -- transactions that take funds directly from your bank account -- on merchants' e-commerce stores with just a few clicks. Visa said consumers will be able to monitor these payments more easily and raise any issues by clicking a button in their banking app, giving them a similar level of protection to when they use their cards.
The service should help people deal with problems like unauthorized auto-renewals of subscriptions, by making it easier for people to reverse direct debit transactions and get their money back, Visa said. It won't initially apply its A2A service to things like TV streaming services, gym memberships and food boxes, Visa added, but this is planned for the future. The product will initially launch in the U.K. in early 2025, with subsequent releases in the Nordic region and elsewhere in Europe later in 2025. [...] Static direct debits, for example, require advance notice of any changes to the amount taken, meaning you have to either cancel the direct debit and set up a new one or carry out a one-off transfer. With Visa A2A, consumers will be able to set up variable recurring payments (VRP), a new type of payment that allows people to make and manage recurring payments of varying amounts.
The service should help people deal with problems like unauthorized auto-renewals of subscriptions, by making it easier for people to reverse direct debit transactions and get their money back, Visa said. It won't initially apply its A2A service to things like TV streaming services, gym memberships and food boxes, Visa added, but this is planned for the future. The product will initially launch in the U.K. in early 2025, with subsequent releases in the Nordic region and elsewhere in Europe later in 2025. [...] Static direct debits, for example, require advance notice of any changes to the amount taken, meaning you have to either cancel the direct debit and set up a new one or carry out a one-off transfer. With Visa A2A, consumers will be able to set up variable recurring payments (VRP), a new type of payment that allows people to make and manage recurring payments of varying amounts.
Fixed title: (Score:4, Insightful)
Visa Debuts New Scheme Designed To Make It Easier For Them To Pilfer Directly From Your Bank Account
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Close. Ow about:
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That's the one for sure. I have no interest in using these kinds of transfers for anything, period for exactly that reason. I have repeatedly chosen service fees over back transfers because of the ability to do chargebacks.
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Close. Ow about:
In Europe legalised protections aren't just limited to credit cards. That's why so few people use them here. The debit card is the most common form of payment method, and the most common standard system is Maestro (if you see the logo and wonder why it looks like a Mastercard logo with a different colour, you're well on the way to understand what Visa is trying to do).
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Close. Ow about:
In Europe legalised protections aren't just limited to credit cards. That's why so few people use them here. The debit card is the most common form of payment method, and the most common standard system is Maestro (if you see the logo and wonder why it looks like a Mastercard logo with a different colour, you're well on the way to understand what Visa is trying to do).
That and I think a lot of Europeans realise that credit card companies aren't making massive profits from magic, they're skimming as much as they can get away with from each transaction (which is why the EU had to limit it to 1%). Debit cards and cash keep prices down by reducing costs of running a business.
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Visa Debuts Another Scheme to Collect Your Financial Data For Resale While Charging For The Privilege
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The background to this is that while most EU countries have this equivalent already within their own borders (and they're cheaper than MC or Visa) the EU is actively working on a system which covers their entire area, or maybe outside as well (and they should still be cheaper than MC or Visa).
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Except it's late to the party. The EU isn't just actively working on, they've already chosen the solution and purchased the technology. https://ideal.nl/en/epi-succes... [ideal.nl]
iDEAL already does what Visa hopes to do (and it works very well) and has already been selected by the EPI for a EU wide rollout.
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The background to this is that while most EU countries have this equivalent already within their own borders (and they're cheaper than MC or Visa) the EU is actively working on a system which covers their entire area, or maybe outside as well (and they should still be cheaper than MC or Visa).
Yep, same with the UK and it's Faster Payments system.
Buying a used car, just send the money direct to the sellers account. Need to pay the builder, you can do it before he's even finished a cup of tea. All you need are their account details (Name, Sort Code (Bank ID) and Account no.)... Visa's problem is they're not seeing a penny from this because it completely bypasses their network, ergo can't skim their percentage from every transaction.
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Visa Debuts New Scheme Designed To Make It Easier For Them To Pilfer Directly From Your Bank Account
Cash is king.
Protections? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm more worried about losing the protections I get when I use a credit card rather than direct transfer.
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Plus, the credit card I normally use includes virtual cards, unique to specific web sites, and I can turn on and off in the app at any time. (And if I lose the actual card or it gets compromised, the virtual cards automatically update to the new account number, so I don't have to update anything.)
Nice idea to be able to reverser bogus transactions after the fact, but I prefer preventing them to begin with.
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I'm more worried about losing the protections I get when I use a credit card rather than direct transfer.
Also this. Also, cash is king.
Do you know how fast and simple it is to balance my checkbook every month when I don't have a huge sheaf of receipts to enter?
Re: Protections? (Score:2)
You balance your cheque book? Wow. I kind of thought about doing it back in the early 90s, but it was half arsed and I didnâ(TM)t do it properly. I havenâ(TM)t even seen a cheque for more than a decade. In fact, Iâ(TM)d be annoyed if somebody even gave me one due to the inconvenience. I certainly donâ(TM)t know where my last chequebook is, so I won't be writing any.
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Why are you paying a percentage to transfer money? Depositing cheques/checks is just a transfer with extra steps.
Re: Protections? (Score:3)
Contractors give me their bank account number and sort code, I transfer them then the money. No fees.
How do you pay by cheque on your phone? Is that just overloading the term?
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I know some people don't bother balacing their account versus the bank statement every month, but for the life of me I will never understand how anyone can live like that, not knowing what you actually have in your account(s), down to the penny.
Seriously, if someone has managed to access your account(s), how would you even know?
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When I used to pay rent, it was via a standing order to transfer directly to the landlord's bank account. Way more convenient than cheques, and a lot easier to cancel. I can't think of any landlord in this country who would want cheques, or any renter who would want to write and send them either.
Now that I pay a mortgage, that's direct debit from our shared bills account and a standing order for my overpayments.
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You should probably still audit your accounts though. Saw a news article where a small business had been being charged $10/month for around 5 years for a service they'd stopped using and supposedly turned off.
Other fraudulent stuff happens.
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Trust me, I do. I was a victim of identity theft and fraud about 15 years ago, and I keep a sharp eye on my accounts. About 20 years ago my girlfriend noticed, after several months, that a restaurant somewhere else in the country was quietly taking $10/month. Since I left N. America in 2009, I've heard far fewer stories of fraud like this.
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I'm more worried about losing the protections I get when I use a credit card rather than direct transfer.
I'm not. This is Europe. You have protections regardless of what payment method you use. There's a reason why so few people use credit cards here.
I'll stick with trad Credit Card (Score:4, Insightful)
With a credit card...I can dispute, etc...and no money leaves my account.
I can cancel easy on a CC...apparently they can still get to your debit unauthorized...?
They've tried to send me Visa Debit cards a few times, each time, I send it back and say please only send me an ATM card.....so that when I want to get cash out I can, but I do not wanna give stores or creditors direct access to my bank account funds.
Not quite sure why people do this....?
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Some simply don't have the credit for an unsecured debt card (a secured CC is better but most people don't know or care about those)
I think also a lot of people simply don't care or don't know how to properly use a credit card, as in you pay it off every month and don't hold a balance. If you are holding balances on credit cards for most people that means you are "doing it wrong" and it's just easier to not even worry about that by just not using one.
Also everybody with a checking account these days gets a
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Also everybody with a checking account these days gets a debit card, it's right there ready to be used.
Truist, then SunTrust, once tried to "upgrade" my ATM card to a Debit card. I talked to my branch manager and tried to decline but was told that the bank had discontinued ATM-only cards when they switched providers (from VISA to MC, or the other way can't remember) -- the provider offered them, but SunTrust didn't want them in favor of ATM/Debit cards. Anyway, I wrote to the president of SunTrust and complained, hard and in detail -- and, apparently, I wasn't the only one. I got a call from his secretar
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Interesting, I have not even been given the option between those when I was at Wachovia or Wells Fargo or my current credit union, it's always been a combined ATM/Debit card, i just rarely if ever use it that way. They really need to teach how credit cards work in schools, I have inlaws with 5 figure credit card balances, its maddness.
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> you pay it off every month
If you can do that then you have no need of a credit card. They are used to *extend* what you have in your account when needed, like for car repairs etc. Then you pay as much as possible every time you can to clear the debt, perhaps almsot ALL of the balance, maybe just 25 or 50% or whatever as your means allow every month.
The issue rises when you have to use it every month, if that is the case then you clearly didnt have enough money coming in in the first place.
Other issue
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Yeah but any financial advisor will tell you riding a balance on a CC with a 15%+ interest rate is a terrible use of money. yes it's there to leverage for emergencies but thats just it, emergencies. If you have any headroom at all there are far better ways to get a loan for some cash. Hell if you already have the score my credit union will give a personal loan with a rate half of that, to say nothing of a HELOC or other similar offerings.
If you have to ride a balance on CC you basically dont have the mon
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With a credit card...I can dispute, etc...and no money leaves my account.
What part of "making it easier for people to reverse direct debit transactions and get their money back" doesn't satisfy your requirement?
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The part that the "reverse" is a legal right for CCs, and not for debit.
Re:I'll stick with trad Credit Card (Score:4, Informative)
The UK and EU has the concept of "direct debit", where a vendor can take money directly from your bank account - that is what Visa is competing with here.
"Direct debit" is also protected with a "Direct Debit Guarantee", which is a legal right to reverse the charge on demand to your bank.
So, in places with proper financial laws, yes that is already a right.
And that is why people in these countries use Direct Debit so frequently - because it has decent protections, and is also convenient to use.
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UK: https://www.directdebit.co.uk/... [directdebit.co.uk]
Also, CC providers have to reverse the charge straight away and then investigate the consumer's claim. Not so for DD (UK, again):
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Biller disputes are also covered by very strong consumer protection laws. The fact you don't get your money back "straight away" is not relevant. Also if you're worried or doing something sketchy, use a credit card if it tickles you the right way. It's still an option in many places. But the reality is that the overwhelming super majority of transactions you will ever make are entirely safe.
If I am in a situation today where I need to reverse a charge, it will amount to about 0.0082% of transactions I've ma
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where a vendor can take money directly from your bank account - that is what Visa is competing with here.
Not quite. Visa is competing with the European Payments Initiative. This is a system which will sit on top of direct debit infrastructure but still involves a middleman - iDEAL. Vendors get money from iDEAL and iDEAL clears the transfer with the bank. The vendor actually doesn't have access to the bank account or bank details.
I actually like the name iDEAL since it is sort of the ideal implementation of the online purchasing system we were promised back in the dotcom bubble. Remember the days where they sai
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What part of "making it easier for people to reverse direct debit transactions and get their money back" doesn't satisfy your requirement?
The fact that press releases and reality rarely merge in the USA, and the abject disbelief that Visa/Mastercard would institute anything with the genuine aim of helping the average customer. Anyone who has lived here for any length of time immediately starts looking for the real motivation, because we know there is one, and it is not the one that they are telling us that
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They've tried to send me Visa Debit cards a few times, each time, I send it back and say please only send me an ATM card...
I had to write to the President of my bank to get my ATM-only card back after my bank "upgraded" me to an ATM/Debit card, as noted here [slashdot.org]. I have the same objections to debit cards as you noted... As for why people use them, I guess if your only alternative is a check, then maybe a debit card is acceptable, but if you have a CC and pay it off every month, then no.
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I used to always get an ATM that could not be used as a debit card. Then my credit union changed the new ATM card into a debit card as well. I went to the credit union and demanded an ATM Only card. It was quite humorous. First it was explained it was impossible. I pointed out my previous card was an ATM Only card. They looked at me incredulously and explained the wonders of a debit card. I looked at them incredulously and explained the wonders of an ATM Only card. Hmmmm....much consternation amongst the cr
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I'd rather NOT have all these people with direct access to my cash in my bank account...
With a credit card...I can dispute, etc...and no money leaves my account.
You're applying American sensibilities and American legal protections where they aren't relevant. People don't have direct access to your account using a system like what visa is proposing. Nor do they with the existing systems that are already used in Europe. And you can dispute debit transactions as well. In Europe consumers have legal protections, not corporate protections granted at the whim of Visa / Mastercard / American Express.
apparently they can still get to your debit unauthorized...?
Who can an in what way? Be specific, because it sounds like you're talkin
Why use a card through a third party? (Score:2)
E-transfer from one account to another using a linked email account is easy enough for paying or receiving payment. No idea how the backend works between different banks but it does work.
European credit card protections are much less (Score:2, Interesting)
This is how it should be. If the banks and businesses don't have any risk they will cheerfully allow you to be robbed blind. This is beneficial for the banks and businesses in the long term because it fosters confidence in the system. I haven't used my debit card for anything but pulling c
Re: European credit card protections are much less (Score:1)
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I don't know about American creditncard protections, but AmEx in Europe makes it very easy to challenge charges paid with their cards, and I have successfully used it to claw back my money on several occasions as well as dispute card fraud with stolen cc number a bunch of times. Unfortunately I've heard Mastercard and VISA don't offer equivalent service.
Erm... if you've had your credit card stolen several times, you probably need to look at the way you're using/keeping it. Not sure about the EU but with the UK you can challenge any activity you think is fraudlent and if it is, the bank will refund you. I'd be very surprised if the EU isn't as stringent.
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What I like about American credit card protections and how our laws work virtually all of the security requirements are put on to the banks and the businesses and not the consumer.
That doesn't stop them from coming after you anyway. One XMas I bought a toy for a nephew through an eBay lookalike site. The price was $150 and lower than the $200 I could find everywhere else. I Paypalled the seller the $150 and received the toy. Two months later I get letters from Cabela's that I owe them over $200. So I called them to see what it was all about. They said they hadn't been paid for the item, to which I replied "But I didn't buy it from you." Turns out the person I had bought the to
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Personally, and I could be shown data that changes my mind on this, but I really feel like the real "scam" here is payment processors charging a percentage at all. For them, outside the risk factor on a large purchase, what is the functional difference in processing a payment for 1$ veruss $1000? Why shouldn't every transaction be a flat fee and maybe a an additional "risk insurance fee" for large purchases over a certian amount in case of fraud or chargebacks.
It just seems a little criminal if I buy somet
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Yeah you as the consumer can work around that and if you don't eat the fee in the end you have no reason to think about it. It's more on a structural level I have the issue, that the percentage taking is effectively rent-seeking-behavior as everyone has to use a processor these days and it has an overall chilling effect on the entire financial system.
As you said at his point payment processing is not an optional thing anymore, it's expected to the point of being a requirement so at that point it either nee
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Visa doesn't allow them to offer discounts when someone is paying by cash or debit card
I believe that federal law allows merchants to offer a discount for paying with cash, checks or debit cards. This was part of the Durbin Amendment [thomsonreuters.com] to the 2010 Dodd Frank Act. State law regulates whether a business can levy a surcharge for paying with a credit card - some states allow surcharges, some do not.
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Thanks. So, it appears 4 states don't allow merchants to add surcharge for credit card fees, but all allow discounts for cash, as long the both prices are displayed. I assume a blanket statement in several prominent places noting "3% Cash/Debit Discount" may suffice to not have to have two prices on every item.
Of note, however, is that Visa, for instance, requires you to let them know 30 days in advance before you start charging extra for CC fees, and a site I read notes that you may then become more pron
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Merchants incur added costs associated with cash as well. Additional accounting, risk of theft and counterfeiting, making bank deposits, etc. Plenty of merchants (generally high-traffic areas like airports, stadiums, etc.) decide that the risk/cost of handling cash isn't worth it and have moved to card only payments.
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The security requirements on mandated on the banks and businesses, but you surely can't be so naive as to not recognize you are the one that ends up paying for it.
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Than American credit card protections. What I like about American credit card protections and how our laws work virtually all of the security requirements are put on to the banks and the businesses and not the consumer.
Yes credit card protections are less, but debit protections are much more. The onus still very much rests on the bank to prevent fraud which is why no one in Europe gives a shit about credit cards. The banks and businesses still have all the risk in Europe, without relying on some shady corporate middleman to promise you safety.
If I use my debit card and get ripped off I can dispute the charge with my bank, and if I do get legit ripped off I'm probably going to win that dispute soon. I only use my credit ca
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> Because I know that if I use my credit card and I get ripped off I can dispute the charge and I'm probably going to win that dispute.
Thats the protection you get from debit cards, and it is quicker and more fluid than with a CC as with a CC you must "provide evidence" blah blah but with Debit card transactions it all done by a simple phone call to the bank.
There are many such solutions in Europe already (Score:3)
Over 10 years in Sweden, almost 10 years in Poland... I guess in other countries as well..
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Yes, SEPA transfers exist since 2008 and SEPA direct debit since 2009.
In Germany direct debit has been established in 1964. This new method by VISA will flop here. Nobody will want to use it.
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This isn't competing with SEPA. It's competing with the EPI (European Payments Initiative) - a new thing that is being promoted by the EC. It'll flop because Europe has already made a decision on this and already acquired the companies it needs to begin rollout.
Say (Score:2)
Do we get rewards points/miles/cash back with this?
Re: Say (Score:2)
Is the recipient of the funds going to be paying a transaction fee?
PayPal (Score:4, Interesting)
Basically, it sounds like what PayPal already is doing.
All my subscriptions are PayPal these days. I just keep the account funded with a minimal amount per month and the subscriptions each have their discrete authorization for recurring payments which I can cancel at any time from a single management portal.
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Basically, it sounds like what PayPal already is doing.
Yes and no. Yes one function of PayPal does this, but otherwise PayPal is quite different, it's tied to your PayPal account (who are their own registered bank) and not to your actual bank.
What this is sounds like what the European Payments Initiative are doing. Effectively a competitor to iDEAL - a system which clears direct debit transactions without sharing bank account details between parties and can be used online.
Oh Hell No (Score:3)
Sorry, VISA, M/C, and AMEX get too much money and data on your transactions. Having fallen victim to two cases of identity fraud over the last three years I for one do not want a so-called service that makes it easier to take or transfer funds from my bank accounts.
Frankly, the so-called transaction fees for these assholes need to be limited by law to no more than .5% on the transaction. After all, the banks who issue the cards are taking the risk here, not them.
And if your asking, yes I did have Lifelock at the time but they're as useful as tits on a bull when it comes to this stuff, if you can get in contact with somebody at their company. Since Norton acquired them, they've gone to shit.
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The banks issuing the card get most of the fees. They then pay about 0.10% to 0.20% back to Visa/MC (in the US, at least)
Never use your debit card (Score:1)
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It's hard to compare. You ultimately end up paying for the banks and card processors to absorb the costs associated with you being able to dispute charges.
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Also people paying cash or debit pay the costs associated with you being able to dispute charges. At least in places that don't charge you more to use a credit card. Besides, banks are much better equipped than you to prevent or reverse or recover bad transactions.
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So, what do you use instead? Cash?
That would save cash perhaps but seeing as so many places simply cant handle it anymore. PLus you cant use cash online.
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Direct Debit already does that (Score:2)
"Static direct debits, for example, require advance notice of any changes to the amount taken, meaning you have to either cancel the direct debit and set up a new one or carry out a one-off transfer. With Visa A2A, consumers will be able to set up variable recurring payments (VRP), a new type of payment that allows people to make and manage recurring payments of varying amounts."
Direct debits already work flexibly. My phone and credit card bills are paid by direct debit . They have a different amount each m
Re: Direct Debit already does that (Score:2)
SEND payment not TAKE payment (Score:5, Interesting)
The whole process of providing my credit card number or bank account details to some merchant that can then lose control of them, or themselves make unauthorized transactions, and that I have to keep a watch for... is just idiotic.
Now that the FedNOW service is operating even the US can do instant payments that would support this.
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I would much rather see a system where I initiate the transfer of funds with my bank, or with my credit provider, to the merchant's trading account and receive a proof-of-payment token that I can provide (electronically) to the merchant and they can verify, that does NOT give them the ability to initiate any future transaction.
Both have a place in the world, and in reality most systems which support recurring transactions support single transactions as well. Subscription systems for recurring payments need to exist, otherwise handling payment invoices on a monthly basis would suuuuuck. Can you imagine, 2nd day of the month getting your letter from Netflix, Disney+, HBO, ESPN, ISP, etc etc etc asking you to manually transfer small amounts?
The whole process of providing my credit card number or bank account details to some merchant that can then lose control of them, or themselves make unauthorized transactions, and that I have to keep a watch for... is just idiotic.
Fortunately the whole point of this seems to be that you do *not* provide your credit card or
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It should also be immediate, none of this "days 3 days" crap as I know people who pay bills like this who are totally unable to manage the balance in their account as they call up a company and pay the bill only for the actual extraction of funds to take several days, during which time they have SPENT the money thinking that is is WAHT WAS LEFT resulting in the transaction failing and them getting a call and so on.
Gym memberships (Score:2)
How'd these guys somehow get away with avoiding all credit card fees?
Full Protections? (Score:2)
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We have full protections for debit transactions in Europe already. The onus rests on the banks, no need to get Visa or Mastercard or any other worthless middleman involved.
Banks fear of FedNow (Score:2)
They want to nip FedNow in the bud so that they can continue to charge exorbitant transaction fees. If they aren't sucessful, they'll lose a significant cash cow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedNow
https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow
Paper checks are dangerous to use, so something with low transactions fees needs to replace them.
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"Paper checks are dangerous to use"
Given the number of times my credit cards have been hacked I'd disagree with that. At the risk of tempting fate my checks have never been a problem.
The real issue is that banks don't like handling the checks.
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Sooo.. How much is their middleman fee? (Score:3)
of course (Score:2)
Why is this better than one time card numbers? (Score:2)