Bhutan, After Prioritizing Happiness, Now Faces an Existential Crisis (cbsnews.com) 132
Bhutan, the tiny kingdom that introduced Gross National Happiness to the world, has a problem: young people are leaving the country in record numbers. CNN: The country boasts free health care, free education, a rising life expectancy and an economy that's grown over the last 30 years -- still, people are leaving. Prime Minister Tshering Tobgay believes it is ironically the success of Gross National Happiness that has made young Bhutanese so sought after abroad. "It is an existential crisis," he said.
Bhutan, which is about the size of Maryland, was largely isolated from the rest of the world for centuries. The kingdom was so protective of its unique Buddhist culture that it only started allowing foreign tourists to visit in the 1970s and didn't introduce television until 1999. Buddhism is the country's national religion. Bhutanese, especially older men and women, spend hours spinning prayer wheels full of Buddhist scriptures. Prayer flags flutter on hillsides and in forests, turning nature itself into a shrine. Bhutan's capital city of Thimpu still has no traffic lights. The nation's roads are shared by cars and cows.
Bhutan, which is about the size of Maryland, was largely isolated from the rest of the world for centuries. The kingdom was so protective of its unique Buddhist culture that it only started allowing foreign tourists to visit in the 1970s and didn't introduce television until 1999. Buddhism is the country's national religion. Bhutanese, especially older men and women, spend hours spinning prayer wheels full of Buddhist scriptures. Prayer flags flutter on hillsides and in forests, turning nature itself into a shrine. Bhutan's capital city of Thimpu still has no traffic lights. The nation's roads are shared by cars and cows.
So asian amish ... (Score:3, Interesting)
People aren't leaving because they are happy they are leaving because they are beginning to understand that there is a big wide world out there with wonders that they cannot even imagine exist yet ..... they're leaving for the same reason young people are leaving the amish world.
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> leaving for the same reason young people are leaving the amish world.
Most Amish youth stay, actually. It's why the Amish population is quickly expanding. They learned from the Catholics: if you can't recruit because your cult is too culty, then perform mass mitosis. However, they face multiple genetic diseases due to inbreeding.
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The average salary in Bhutan is $400/month, according to Google. They are probably leaving because they can earn a lot more overseas, with their free education.
Re:So asian amish ... (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't think it's just about money. Sure, they make $400/month, but $400 can go a long way in many places. Yeah, a computer costs about the same in all places, so making more than $400/month can ease buying a computer, but do they all need computers? If you look at this hierarchy of needs [mindisthemaster.com], the question becomes are all their needs met? Perhaps the answer is that they are, but not at the levels they feel they'd be comfortable. I suspect a big cause of the migration is the Internet and the thought process that grass is always greener on the neighbor's yard. As someone posted above, they probably see the lifestyle of others living on the outside and they think it's glamorous, so they move out only to discover that most of us are slaves to our lifestyle and perhaps a simpler life ain't that bad.
Re: So asian amish ... (Score:2)
"Yeah, a computer costs about the same in all places"
No, it does not. It will get closer soon though when tariffs hit the US like they have the EU
Not so sunny (Score:5, Interesting)
Bhutan has a pretty abysmal human rights record, including having done ethnic cleansing [wikipedia.org].
Also, young people want economic opportunity and freedom, which may not be so readily available in Bhutan.
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Well sunny now. Imagine how happy everyone is when can't be racist anymore since there's no one to be racist to.
misleading intro (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that schools were taught in english provided a skilled workforce, and COVID-19 suppression of tourism caused massive job loss resulting in the outmigration to countries with jobs and good wages.
It is the tourism job dependence that caused the loss of population, not the 'happiness index' focus.
Re:misleading intro (Score:4, Insightful)
Would mod up if I had points. This makes, by far, the most sense. The idea "people are so happy here now, they all leave" is utter nonsense.
Re:misleading intro (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you're missing that there's an angle. This news story isn't coming from nowhere.
The person saying this is the Prime Minister who just assumed office while being the main opposition when this (still popular) policy was drafted. And since Bhutan remains a Monarchy with only a facade of democracy, he can't be seen to oppose a policy that King Wangchuck has directly supported, if he wants to end the program and instead implement his more socialist reforms of focusing more on agricultural productiveness by providing agricultural equipment to struggling peasants, he has to say the program succeeded to end it.
Measuring nappiness (Score:2)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_in_Bhutan.
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You can't buy happiness (Score:2)
And happiness doesn't buy stuff.
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And Joy didn't win the election [nymag.com]
Questionable headline (Score:2)
Bhutan, After Prioritizing Happiness, Now Faces an Existential Crisis
The headline invites the reader to see the departure as a (failed) referendum on Happiness... whereas:
The kingdom was so protective of its unique Buddhist culture that it only started allowing foreign tourists to visit in the 1970s and didn't introduce television until 1999. Buddhism is the country's national religion. Bhutanese, especially older men and women, spend hours spinning prayer wheels full of Buddhist scriptures.
... I wonder if instead the exposure to outside ideas, lifestyles, merchandise, and indeed the realistic freedom to leave might be getting young people interested in what lies beyond.
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Did you miss the point that msmash posted the story? She is challenged to connect the headline to the actual story, most around here just let it roll off our back...
"..hours spinning prayer wheels"? (Score:2)
Has Rick Sanchez visited this country, maybe disguised as an alien?
Happiness (Score:2)
The nation's roads are shared by cars and cows.
No bicycles? Happiness has been preserved.
It's like Terry Pratchett said (Score:4, Insightful)
"Wisdom is one of the few things that looks bigger the further away it is."
What a load of crap (Score:2)
The PM thinks people are leaving because of the 'success' of the program. "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Ask them? (Score:2)
Guessing the leader of a country is likely to be out of touch with current young adult mindsets or opinions.
Also, feels like a LOT of details are missing there for what 'Gross National Happiness' means. Guessing it's like a mood version of GDP. Aiming to improve the average gives different results than solving the worst cases. Or trying to replicate the best cases (copy positive outliers).
Praying all day, spinning a wheel... might feel good to that person, but I see it as spiritual masturbation. They d
Correlation is not causation. (Score:2)
EOM
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I strongly doubt spinning prayer wheels is the end all be all of both their happiness and how they spend their lives.
Re:Wrong kind of happiness (Score:5, Interesting)
They've been running the country as the Buddist equivalent of a Mennonite community. People see what's going on outside their borders, and want to experience it.
Of course, they have no idea we're no happier because we're used to all this stuff, but they'll figure it out.
Re:Wrong kind of happiness (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps. But I don't think the youth migration issue is unique to them. Other culturally and economically similar countries like Nepal also have issues with youth migrating to the cities for opportunities. As for international emigration, Bhutan may feel that rate is historically high for *them*, but they're not anywhere near the top countries for this in the world -- it doesn't even break the top thirty. The top countries are India, Russia, Mexico, China and Bangladesh.
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Of course, they have no idea we're no happier because we're used to all this stuff, but they'll figure it out.
But we do have a lot of things that are geared towards giving people dopamine hits and a pleasurable sensation. None of it seems to bring any long term happiness, but it's certainly appealing in the moment.
I'm not sure if people can really understand how to be happy until they've stupidly blundered through life enough to recognize all of the things that might seem good but will only bring misery.
Re: Wrong kind of happiness (Score:2)
rsilvergun teaches his followers that all a person needs to be happy is to be an adequately fed worker drone in a factory that they are part owner of.
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So are you saying people are required in this country to live a certain way like Mennonites are? That's not my understanding here at all but then again I'm no expert on Bhutan.
Still would appreciate a citation to back up such a claim given that it doesn't match my understanding of the country.
Re:Wrong kind of happiness (Score:5, Insightful)
Also mindless spinning prayer wheels is *exactly* what the Buddha didn't want you to do. Totally missed the original point of his teachings, which is to actually experience life in more depth and awareness.
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That... That tracks. It's not like there are any other revered instructions out there that are 'followed' contrary to their obvious intent.
I imagine there are lifetimes' worth of studies to be done on why humans inevitably do that.
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Re:Young people (Score:5, Insightful)
Even Buddhists can become crappy people, as seen in Myanmar [wikipedia.org]. Any sort of religious system has the potential of creating in-groups and out-groups.
Re: Buddhists gone bad in Myanmar (Score:2)
True, but Buddhists have a much better overall track record than Christians and Muslims. The secret is focusing on fixing yourself instead of others. Busybodies Break Blissful Balance.
Re: Buddhists gone bad in Myanmar (Score:2)
"The secret is focusing on fixing yourself instead of others."
Ok, what does that have to do with Christians? They've got the most missionaries.
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The secret to peace, I didn't mean growth.
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"The secret is focusing on fixing yourself instead of others."
Ok, what does that have to do with Christians? They've got the most missionaries.
Buddishm like most religions has a fair few things wrong with it, it's incredibly sexist for example (women represent desire, desire leads to suffering).
However it tends not to be as bad as other religions. I put this down to it being atheist rather than having a deity. A Buddhist needs to judge themselves first and foremost, if their actions and intentions are good enough. Rather than waiting for a god or gods to judge them. Also there is no "get out of jail free" card where terrible acts can be condone
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While your conclusion is correct, your syllogism to arrive at it is not. Plenty of perfectly normal non-religious things are not evidence-based
Is cooking a lasagna for my family evidence based? No I just follow a recipe I've been given. Is it a religion?
If I play games with my friends for fun, is that some evidence based assessment of what's best for me? No.
When I got married(A very important thing to do right, you'll agree), did I consult some careful analysis of what kinds of pairings make the happiest
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[*nitpick*] GP did not state a syllogism, nor did you.
A syllogism is two premise-statements, followed by a third "therefore"-statement that ties them together in a conclusion. There is no "if" in a syllogism. Here's an example:
1. An ape is a primate that lacks a tail.
2. Humans are primates that lack tails.
3. Therefore, humans are apes.
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1. An ape is a primate that lacks a tail.
2. Humans are primates that lack tails.
3. Therefore, humans are apes.
Well, your syllogism is broken, because your first premise is reversed.
If an ape is a tailless primate, it doesn't mean that all tailless primates are apes. It means that apes are included in the primates with no tail category, not that tailless primates are included in the apes category. There may be other types of tailless primates that are not apes.
You should have said
All primates that lack a tail are apes
All humans are primates that have a tail
Therefore all humans are apes
which would be a nice Barbara s
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Drat, typo, sorry
Of course, the second line of my syllogism should be
All humans are primates that lack a tail
Isn't it fun when you try to correct somebody and make your own mistakes? And I did preview too.
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Isn't it fun when you try to correct somebody and make your own mistakes? And I did preview too.
Happens to me all the time. Thanks for the improvement, mistakes and all.
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The funny thing is after hitting preview, I decided to go back and change "reasoning" to "syllogism" because I was engaging with the unstated premise that "all things that are not evidence-based are religion".
You are correct, the actual deduction is not flawed, just the premises.
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First off, your example syllogism is faulty. You've committed the fallacy of the undistributed middle. By the same logic we could say:
1. Cardinals are birds that have red feathers.
2. Robins are birds that have red feathers.
3. Therefore, robins are cardinals.
To be a valid syllogism, your major premise needed to be: "All primates that lack tails are apes", which properly distributes your middle term.
Second, the OP implied a syllogism. Stated more formally, it is:
1. Any belief system that is not evidence-ba
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Yeah, I messed up my example. Someone else beat you to pointing it out though.
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"1. Cardinals are birds that have red feathers."
I always thought that Cardinals were the top level of Clergy of the religion based in Rome, and they occasionally elect one of their members to be the Primate (usually after the previous one has died)
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calling Buddhism a theocracy is hilarious. There are a lot of Buddhists that also practice other religions, because unlink most religions it is a set of practices and not a set of beliefs.
Maybe that's because, according to some, Buddhism isn't strictly a religion. There's no formal deity. It's more of a spiritual discipline.
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You can say anything about deities in Buddhism and it's bound to be true in some versions of Buddhism. Buddhism has no deities. Buddhism has many deities, but godhood is no big deal. Buddhism has some deities whose worship is very important to followers. All of those things are true.
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Scientology doesn't have deities but nobody has a problem with calling it a religion.
Scientology very much wanted (and wants) to call itself a religion, in order to gain the concomitant tax-advantages.
Not a theocracy. (Score:2)
Of course Bhutan isn't a theocracy but don't let reality slow you down.
The monarch is the head of the state and then they have a prime minister and an elected legislative body.
Re:Young people (Score:4, Insightful)
"Don't want to live in a religious theocracy."
I wonder where the young people in the USA will move to , after Project 2025 gets going.
Canada?
It has happened before: United Empire Loyalists, African-heritage slaves, Vietnam draft-dodgers.
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Two problems: (1) Canada has the twin problems of a severe housing crisis and a very overloaded healthcare system, so it has recently slashed immigration targets. It's not very easy to move here.
(2) We have our own MAGA-Lite party waiting in the wings to form the next government, which it almost certainly will.
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"Don't want to live in a religious theocracy."
I wonder where the young people in the USA will move to , after Project 2025 gets going.
Canada?
It has happened before: United Empire Loyalists, African-heritage slaves, Vietnam draft-dodgers.
Oh Canada...
Not just Canada mind you, I think most western countries are (or should be) preparing for an influx of Americans, skilled at first, then anyone with a claim (I.E. Ancestry), worst case scenarios even see refugees.
The UKs Home Office is clearing it's backlog, predicting that we'll see some additional migration, not just from the US but also a small up tick from Canada. South and Latin American nations are also preparing but for them they're going to get benefit out of it with highly skilled
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Fair enough. You won't escape the influence of the USA by moving to Canada.
Living next to you is in some ways like sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered is the beast, if I can call it that, one is affected by every twitch and grunt. -- then-Prime-Minister Pierre Trudeau
I think there's more than just an English (or French) language test required to gain Canadian residency. Certainly you can visit, even for an extended time, but not forever without obtaining status. But permanent
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Well... maybe things have changed, but the book in questioned detailed Canada's points system. So I added up all the points... education, work experience, et cetera... I qualified for, and the tally if I took the TOEFL test would have put me over the threshold for the work visa I was looking at, which would have gotten me PR status after two years living and working there.
I'm under no illusions that it would be trivial. Nothing involving government paperwork is. But I'm also pretty sure that I would take
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It has changed recently, too many immigrants has not helped our problems such as not enough housing or medical staff.
Besides, we have our own fascist waiting in the wings with plans to suspend civil rights and fix Canada to be much like Hungary.
My kid my end up fleeing (Score:4, Insightful)
For me I'm too old and beat up to leave or I'd probably head for the UK.
It's possible a combination of incompetence and resistance will see us through the next 4 years, but there's a real effort going on to consolidate power so that us little guys don't get a say anymore.
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Project 2025 basically scuttles their plans for grad school. No more department of education. They've got their bachelor's, not sure if that'll be enough though.
Please explain how the Federal Department of Education is required to enroll/attend graduate school?
So your kid may flee to another country because he can't/won't be able to find work with only a bachelors degree? Curious what useless bachelors degree your child got...
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Project 2025 basically scuttles their plans for grad school. No more department of education. They've got their bachelor's, not sure if that'll be enough though.
For me I'm too old and beat up to leave or I'd probably head for the UK.
It's possible a combination of incompetence and resistance will see us through the next 4 years, but there's a real effort going on to consolidate power so that us little guys don't get a say anymore.
4 years... that's cute.
Do you not think they'll find a way to not have elections?
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The real question is will there be Civil War 2, or will both sides agree to split without a full conflict? Almost half the North felt they should have let the South go back then, seeing them as stubborn trouble-makers, and that looks about right to me.
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The real question is will there be Civil War 2, or will both sides agree to split without a full conflict? Almost half the North felt they should have let the South go back then, seeing them as stubborn trouble-makers, and that looks about right to me.
You're assuming the red states would let the blue states go.
How would the red states be economically viable without the blue?
Re: Young people (Score:2)
You're assuming they can afford to complain.
All we have to do is stop paying taxes and they will go broke. And they are defunding the IRS...
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No Civil War, the Red States like Blue Money (Score:5, Interesting)
The real question is will there be Civil War 2, or will both sides agree to split without a full conflict? Almost half the North felt they should have let the South go back then, seeing them as stubborn trouble-makers, and that looks about right to me.
What the South doesn't realize is that the North is keeping them afloat in nearly every regard. If the blue states split off from the red ones and had an economic embargo, every red state that doesn't produce oil would be FUCKED. Texas, OK, WY etc...they'd be rattled, but recover because crude oil is valuable. However, the blue states would have to ramp up manufacturing, causing an employment boom here for blue collar work. We'd pay more for fuel, but it's an internationally traded commodity, so OPEC would be happy to sell to us at the right price. FL would be a resort, at best, instead of a rapidly developing state.
If there was a military conflict? Well...they would not fare so well...especially if it's a neo-confederacy. The engineering expertise is in the North and the manufacturing heart is in the MidWest. Southerners love to brag how armed they are...but where are those guns manufactured again?...also...let's be clear...the soldiers on the front-line are primarily from the lower-classes. If you have a neo-confederacy with red-state-grade-racism...expect a mass migration of young black and latino folk away from there. I don't think a huge number of young black men are up for dying for red state ideals, especially if they're welcomed with open arms up North. Remember, the most elite badass troops can be taken out by a cheap drone...and it's easy to fly enough into range that they'd overwhelm even the most skilled gun nuts. Also, how many wars were won by a navy more than an army?
My prediction is the North will come out MUCH stronger...but even if I was right, it would be PAINFUL and devastating to get there.
I don't think Americans are stupid enough to fight another civil war. Each side can debate about who will come out on top, but all would agree it would be a PAINFUL split. The economy is moving to a place where the red and blue states complement each other well, economically. The Red States can't replicate the Blue State's engineering expertise. The Blue States are thriving due to the Red States providing a manufacturing and logistics base at a lower cost than our big cities. Also, I think our current division is really bad, but in a temporary state. We're seeing a shift of major demographics, like organized labor and the business community going from reliably Democrat and Republican respectively to being a toss-up. The Republicans are rejecting the Chamber of Commerce and the Unions are rejecting the Democrats...eventually this will stabilize, IMHO.
I think our division is actually acutely terrible due to unchecked rise of social media, Russian interference, and these shifts people are navigating. They're not sustainable. For example, the Republicans won the house, senate, and white house and packed the supreme court. They have total power for a minimum of 2 years. I predict one of 2 outcomes:
1. They do a good job and convert rational people like me and dominate like they did in the 80s.
2. The fuck up as bad as I personally think they will and lose seats in 2 years and begin a slow descent as Trump retires or dies and JD Vance and Matt Gaetz really lack the charisma and skill to recreate Trump's victories. I don't think history will remember a cabinet with Gabbard/Gaetz/RFKJR/Musk very kindly...but would LOVE to be proven wrong. I hope they surprise me and actually do a good job.
But regardless, I think we're seeing about as bad as the divisions will get.
Re: No Civil War, the Red States like Blue Money (Score:2)
"I don't think Americans are stupid enough to fight another civil war"
All evidence is to the contrary. Remember, it only takes one side to decide there will be conflict.
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If you don't have a degree (and sometimes, even if you do), life can be pretty tough here. The main challenge that the US has is the only product we can successfully export is US government debt. This is a self-perpetuating problem. The massive
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The main challenge that the US has is the only product we can successfully export is US government debt.
Only 23% of the US Government debt is owned by foreign creditors. The rest of the US debt is owned by Americans: Individual investors own about 15%, The Federal Reserve Bank holds about 13%, State and Local governments hold another 13%, Mutual funds, Insurance Funds, etc hold about 15%, the Federal Government holds another 20% itself.
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Apple, Tesla, Lockheed, nVidia would like a word.. (Score:2)
The main challenge that the US has is the only product we can successfully export is US government debt.
Apple, Tesla, Boeing, all our defense contractors, all our tool makers (Milwaukee/DeWalt), nVidia, Microsoft, etc....all export things just fine. We have a MASSIVE export economy, even before you consider oil and food. You knew this, right?
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Tesla's revenue from other countries is about $7B. US government debt exports per year are about $450B. Even our petroleum products are $300B.
Petroleum products are around $300B/year and agricultural products are around $200B/year. So, again, our largest export is US government debt. Right now, our debt exports.
You're ignorant of modern manufacturing (Score:2)
I never said we didn't have a massive export economy. I said that US government debt is our largest export. Apple doesn't really export anything because they make their products in China.
Unless you count TSMC Taiwan as China, nothing has to be made in China...except advanced chips, like nVidia's, that can only be made by TSMC in Taiwan. DeWalt and Milwaukee manufacture more from Mexico and Israel than China. Apple makes components in the USA, India, China, and many other places. You haven't been keeping up. We've specifically moved away from China in many industries since COVID and even before then. It costs more to manufacture in China than many parts of the world, a lot of things are
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The problem with any optimism about all this working out in the long term is just how much harm will they manage to do to their scapegoats... immigrants, LGBT people, women... in the short term?
I've been in discussions elsewhere where people tried to offer up a "bright side" that, even though the country is going to suffer, and the targeted populations are going to suffer A LOT; it's all worth it and we shouldn't even try to fight back because the republicans will inevitably crash and burn and the country w
I'm old...I've heard it before.... (Score:2)
The problem with any optimism about all this working out in the long term is just how much harm will they manage to do to their scapegoats... immigrants, LGBT people, women... in the short term?
I've been in discussions elsewhere where people tried to offer up a "bright side" that, even though the country is going to suffer, and the targeted populations are going to suffer A LOT; it's all worth it and we shouldn't even try to fight back because the republicans will inevitably crash and burn and the country will be so much better in the long term once they do. I'm not going to prognosticate as to the likelihood of that outcome. But circling back to my problem with your position... I poined out to that other guy how incredibly shitty it was to offer up someone else... and someone else's loved ones... as sacrificial lambs to he could have his bright future. His only answer was that "it will be worth it."
A lot of the people I love and care about have targets on their backs now, as do I. And it's only going to get worse. I don't know the answer, but I'm not exactly anxious to be anyone's lamb led off to the slaughter. And I already know a couple of friends... other gay and liberal people very much in the anti-NRA camp until this month... who are talking about arming themselves. I may do so myself. People are scared. People are depressed. And people are pissed. In two months from now, people are going to start getting desperate... very desperate. This is not good.
I heard this when Bush was reelected as well. Nothing happened. Arm yourself if you like, but you're just wasting money on a killing tool you'll never use outside a gun range...and if you're going to buy one, learn how to shoot it! I grew up with a ton. They hold no romance for me. They're about as sexy as a pair of pliers...just a tool to get a job done.
This IS terrible. That's why I voted for who I thought would do the better job, but for the first time in a long time, the majority of Americans c
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Oh, I'm not a stranger to guns. Though I used to shoot mostly rifles and shotguns. I left them behind years ago because I lost interest in target and skeet shooting as a hobby, I never saw any need for them outside the range, and I was moving cross-country and didn't want the hassle of finding out the laws of several states wrt/ traveling with them.
This is the first time I've ever felt like I might actually need one for defense. Now there's this talk of him immediately declaring a national emergency and
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1. They do a good job and convert rational people like me
I don't think that demographic is large enough to make much difference.
Re: No Civil War, the Red States like Blue Money (Score:2)
This is the silliest take on an armed conflict between Red and Blue I've seen, so of course it is a popular idea on Slashdot.
If you've actually seen a map, the blue states are geographically isolated on opposite sides of the country with a HUGE swath of red between them. It doesn't matter where guns are made, food isn't made in those states, not in quantities required to sustain them.
They are reliant on an interconnected power grid and transportation network, just turning off the power and stopping trains i
We own the ports + you'll miss us if you win (Score:2)
This is the silliest take on an armed conflict between Red and Blue I've seen, so of course it is a popular idea on Slashdot.
If you've actually seen a map, the blue states are geographically isolated on opposite sides of the country with a HUGE swath of red between them. It doesn't matter where guns are made, food isn't made in those states, not in quantities required to sustain them.
They are reliant on an interconnected power grid and transportation network, just turning off the power and stopping trains in and out would grind them down.
They could import food and fuel for a while at great cost because of access to deep water ports, but the red states also have them and a blockade essentially closes up shop for the blue states. In addition, much of the armed forces are conservative, from the grunt to the general.
The stream of losing comes, DIRECTLY from the non-stop derision people on the left seem to have for people on the right, calling them uneducated and stupid all the time. The levels of condescending rhetoric from the left is absolutely unreal.
A fist to the face doesn't really care who has the higher degree.
Blue states own more ports. Also, you assume everyone who votes for Trump will side with the red states. Only the most hardcore MAGA would secede....and I wager few of those who view Trump as a cult leader and fawn over him at those rallies are smart enough to run a functioning farm. It takes a lot more work and intellect to farm these days. Also, there are a ton of farms in deep blue areas. They just grow fruit and produce today...they could just as easily grow grain, they just make more money with ot
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The real question is will there be Civil War 2, or will both sides agree to split without a full conflict?
Given what the expression "civil war" literally means, rather than its figurative usage all too common nowadays, in light of the current US population, a real Civil War 2 would mean something around 9,000 deaths -- roughly three World Trade Centers -- per day of conflict, for a grand total of about 1% of the US population dying per year, for as long as the conflict lasted. This number includes both direct in-action deaths (about 3,000/day), as well as indirect deaths due to famines, plagues, diseases, and t
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Whatever the current ideological split is, my hunch is Americans, though generally very bloodthirsty, aren't that bloodthirsty
You're assuming that they would know. What you're describing is only about three times as many Americans as died in the pandemic, and a large swathe of the country denies that even happened.
If you learn nothing else from this election, learn that reality isn't what governs decision making for the American populace.
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What you're describing is only about three times as many Americans as died in the pandemic, and a large swathe of the country denies that even happened.
Good point. But wars are different from pandemics in that they're loud and very, very visible, so I posit that, for good and ill, that'd make a difference.
If you learn nothing else from this election, learn that reality isn't what governs decision making for the American populace.
Kinda. What happened in the US is the same that happened in many other countries in which elections were held, this year and the last one: high inflation leading the population to vote the incumbent party out. I wish that hadn't been the case, and that Harris had won, but the Democrats complete and utter failure at reining inflation in was their demise, s
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Kinda. What happened in the US is the same that happened in many other countries in which elections were held, this year and the last one: high inflation leading the population to vote the incumbent party out.
There was more at play than just that. The incessant shovelling of aLtErNaTiVe LiFeStYLezzz down the entire population's throat is the other nail in the Democrats' coffin: They let the extreme left take over, and this election was a reaction to that.
Just like 1980 was to the incessant woke garabge that started with Carter.. you can actually trace it back to LBJ.
but the Democrats complete and utter failure at reining inflation in was their demise, so now the world is stuck with Trump, and the damage will be immense.
All any of us can do is extrapolate from current position, and I heavily disagree with your take.
One thing that has to be done, and Reagan started
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They let the extreme left take over, and this election was a reaction to that.
There's nothing "left" in wokeness. It's the classic liberal (the antecessor of libertarianism) focus on individualism. At the extreme it strives for a completely distinct lifestyle per person, no culturally-imposed collectivist sameness as present in both socialist and conservative societies.
If you doubt the above assertion, Google what were the "family policies" under Stalin, Mao, Ceaucescu, and others Communist countries. The closest you get to anything resembling "wokeness" is early Lenin, who was all f
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I wonder where the young people in the USA will move to , after Project 2025 gets going.
What do you mean project 2025? You literally have "In God We Trust" written on you money. You are revoking women's rights in the name of religious nutjobs. Many states have laws that insist on labelling evolution as a theory, and one state which tried to mandate the 10 commandments be listed in every classroom.
Anyone still in the USA has already concepted the idea that the Church is the state.
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one state which tried to mandate the 10 commandments be listed in every classroom.
Not just one. [usatoday.com]
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Project 2025 is not going anywhere. It's just not implementable in the U.S. Trump possibly appointing one of the authors [go.com] to some position does not mean there'll be any push to implement it in any way. Like he said during his debate with Harris, he thinks there's some good things in there, and some he doesn't agree with. Don't believe the hype that Project 2025 is on the agenda.
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It's like Lucy holding the football for Charlie Brown. We keep underestimating the level of toxicity that Trump can to show, and then act surprised when it happens.
As others have said about Trump: don't listen to what he says, watch what he does.
Project 2025 was drawn up by a group of people that include numerous former members of his staff. I find it very hard to believe that it "is not going anywhere."
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"It's just not implementable in the U.S."
That's what people thought about hiring an actor to be president. Now we've done it three times with two different guys.
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"It's just not implementable in the U.S."
That's what people thought about hiring an actor to be president. Now we've done it three times with two different guys.
Trump isn't really an "actor", he's more of a "personality", but that's a distinction without a difference.
As for Reagan, you do realize he was President of the Screen Actor's Guild, and then Governor of California, and both times was considered effective in his job.
And your count is off - "Now we've done it FOUR times with two different guys." Both Reagan and Trump were re-elected.
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As for Reagan, you do realize he was President of the Screen Actor's Guild [...]
Indeed. Reagan was the first (and AFAIK, the only) US president who had also been president of a trade union.
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To be fair, Trump is definitely not the same caliber Reagan was. At least Reagan believed in conservative values. Trump is in it for himself. An nothing precludes actors from becoming presidents, obviously, and shouldn't. Saying otherwise is bigoted and elitist.
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"It's just not implementable in the U.S."
That's what people thought about hiring an actor to be president. [...]
[...] nothing precludes actors from becoming presidents, obviously, and shouldn't.
Agreed. I think drinkypoo strained the rhetoric a bit, and meant people thought an actor becoming president was not "plausible." But I should let him address it him/herself.
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The last decent Republican was McCain, or perhaps Liz Cheney like you said. But unfortunately she paid the price for sticking to what she thought was a sensible approach.
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Trump could not have gotten elected without Reagan's administration destroying education [theintercept.com], just like Reagan did in California before he was president.
Reagan was a spectacular piece of shit. Saying he was less terrible than Trump isn't saying he was a good person, or a good president.
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Don't believe the hype that Project 2025 is on the agenda.
Why not? There is a document. The people who created the document are being pulled into positions of power. So explain how we should not be expecting Project 2025 without resorting to "should/could". The Supreme Court should not have made some of the rulings that they made, and yet here we are, with corporations able to directly sponsor candidates and abortion is illegal across much of the USA.