
China Retaliates Over New US Chip Restrictions (yahoo.com) 187
China banned exports of minerals and metals used in semiconductor manufacturing and military applications to the United States on Tuesday, escalating tensions in the growing technology trade war between the world's two largest economies.
The commerce ministry halted shipments of gallium, germanium, antimony and related compounds, citing national security concerns. These materials are crucial components in advanced electronics and military hardware, with China controlling 98% of global gallium production and 60% of germanium output, according to U.S. Geological Survey data. The move comes in direct response to Washington's new restrictions on semiconductor exports to China, including controls on high-bandwidth memory chips used in AI systems and limits on manufacturing equipment sales.
The commerce ministry halted shipments of gallium, germanium, antimony and related compounds, citing national security concerns. These materials are crucial components in advanced electronics and military hardware, with China controlling 98% of global gallium production and 60% of germanium output, according to U.S. Geological Survey data. The move comes in direct response to Washington's new restrictions on semiconductor exports to China, including controls on high-bandwidth memory chips used in AI systems and limits on manufacturing equipment sales.
US stupidity (Score:3, Interesting)
The US had years to do this, why now? To be precise, what prompted this stupidity? The US doesn't have any leverage, which is why China is a problem in the first place. This trade war was always going to end badly ... for the USA.
The US can't bully the UN into a police-action invading China. What did the US think was going to happen?
Re:US stupidity (Score:5, Funny)
China has leverage temporarily. The only reason it has "cornered" the market on some rare earth minerals is because many are very "dirty" to refine. So we watched as production shifted to a country that doesn't care and isn't accountable to its people for significantly polluting their own environment to export those metals for profit.
I suspect this is going to be very temporary. There isn't sufficient domestic demand to soak up the output of China's production. Without this export machine, their economy will collapse. The aftermath of that will make Tiananmen Square in 1989 look like a picnic. When China has sudden political change thrust on it by its own people, the aftermath doesn't just strip their ruling elite of their wealth...their heads often follow. They'll blink.
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China doesn't need to export rare minerals to the US to keep their economy going though, that's a very small part of the Chinese economy. Also the trump administration *probably?* isn't immunine to drastic changes in the US economy, although saying trump can do stupid things and suffer consequences for it hasn't worked out very often. Of course you love trump and don't undestand the last sentence I just wrote, so I'm sure in your mind his tarriff ideas are pure genius.
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Why. in this hypothetical trade war that causes china to collapse, does the US not collapse too? Are we less dependent on the international economy?
Actually nobody will collapse, we'll just be a less wealthy country when its all over and so will china. Horay?
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Re:US stupidity (Score:5, Insightful)
Please remind me who has been president for the last 3 years, I must have missed something.
Straight from NBC, emphasis mine.
The United States on Monday launched its third crackdown in three years on China's semiconductor industry, curbing exports to 140 companies, including chip equipment maker Naura Technology Group, among other moves.
It comes just weeks before the swearing-in of President-elect Donald Trump, who is expected to retain many of Biden's tough-on-China measures.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/w... [nbcnews.com]
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My point was, at least to the parent comment I replied to, it that Trump is in NO WAY responsible for the current technology tariffs that Biden's administration imposed.
Your counter-point is exactly what? That ours is "literally the best economy in the world right now".
Please define economy for me. Lots of people would point to GDP, and in that case your absolutely correct. We have the best GDP right now, as we also had the best GDP when Trump was president, as well as Clinton, Bush, etc.... In fact, compa
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LOL you live in a fantasy of just how big a tiny portion of China's economic output really is. No their economy won't collapse because they aren't selling gallium et al. to other countries. And no you can't pop up a refinery in a day, this stuff takes several years of planning.
The reason this trade war tactics are used is because they work and they apply pain beyond a threshold for replacement. Your comment is just as valid for every other trade restriction China has imposed in retaliation for the last few
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The problem for the US is that we have lost the ability to actually *do* anything in a timely fashion. We have rare earths here in the US, but we don't extract them because of NIMBY stuff. When that changes, i'll pay attention, otherwise we're going to be anally rogered by the likes of China.
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Vietnam has been ramping up production as well.
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Really? They have surplus of something the US needs and can't get from elsewhere. They can up they price and the US will pay. Or they can not sell and their biggest competitor gets weaker. Nothing here will cause China's economy to collapse.
Re: US stupidity (Score:2)
"They have surplus of something the US needs and can't get from elsewhere."
We don't have to get it from elsewhere, we have it HERE.
We don't have the production running now, but nothing precludes us restoring it.
How come people can believe that US tariffs on Chinese goods won't harm China and will only promote their internal economy, but then can't believe that Chinese tariffs won't harm the US and will only promote our internal economy? You know we are still a manufacturing center for the planet, right? We
stupidity (Score:2)
Re:US stupidity (Score:5, Insightful)
China has massive domestic demand from manufacturers who use things like gallium in semiconductors. There is no restriction on the export of finished components, only the raw materials.
The US is about to see a big spike in prices for domestic components using those materials, and then self-imposed tariffs on top for other things.
Re: US stupidity (Score:2)
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You might consider using an actual name in there somewhere so anyone that isn't already in your little indoctrinated echo chamber knows what the hell you're talking about.
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No one listens when you use derisive names. That's the point about Trump's crap. The only people who listen are his enemies, hence why he's the world's biggest troll.
Just stop listening to him and the world is a better place.
Re:US stupidity (Score:5, Insightful)
I did recovery from codependence. A few principles:
1) I have no control over anyone but myself, and even then it's limited by my will to change.
2) I had to learn to accept the world as it is for sanity and serenity. Like that Donald Trump is who he is and I have no say over it.
3) I needed to emotionally detach from the things out of my control. Like Trump.
4) I needed to create valid boundaries that protect my serenity. Protecting things critical to me and my day to day life. Thinking bigger than my personal life is a pathway to codependence and essentially illness.
It's been a real help. If this sounds like a cure for TDS, it kind of is, but it affects the rest of your life also. "We apply these principles in all our affairs"
Discourse (Score:3)
Well said.
I would also add: if I have something to say about an an issue, I (try to) directly address the issue, not the person. Even when I find them aggravating. What little power we do have relates to discussion and sharing ideas about the issues at hand, and what charities we do — or don't — thoughtfully engage with.
While many are locked to one side or the other in our highly polarized political climate, some people can be moved by reasoned discussion. I even try to be one of those people. M
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Thank you and agreed. Though I think I was one of those people who could be reasoned with the whole time. We've seriously lost the ability as a body politic to even discuss why people think what they do. The moment you question a belief, you become anathema. It's like religion at this point.
The older I get, the more I realize that political rhetoric is aimed at a target that is not me. For instance, the first election I voted in was 1992. I bought into the whole 'new beginning' thing of Clinton and gett
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Now ultimately, I think there's a better battle to be won in making the democrats no-longer a right wing rump party than trying to cure whatever is going on with the republicans, but I get being outraged.
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We could also quote Lenin on breaking eggs and making omelettes. But we can also note that pretty much all political movements are created by "dark triad" Cluster B personalities, and it shows.
Health is not congruent with political activism.
Re: US stupidity (Score:3)
"I had to learn to accept the world"
We got here because people accepted the corruption that is instead of fighting it.
That attitude only leads to collapse.
It may make you feel better temporarily, but in the long term it's a prescription for failure.
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Just because you "learn to accept the world" doesn't mean that you can't still try to change it. I voted against Trump, I donated to his opponents, I convinced family to vote against him.
There's a difference between fighting corruption or for change and just going on an unproductive name-calling rant.
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Just because you "learn to accept the world" doesn't mean that you can't still try to change it.
That is literally what it means.
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So you donated money to someone who you knew would use our tax dollars to fund and arm a genocide? I hope you're at least moral enough to feel ashamed.
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What genocide? It isn't like Trump doesn't promise genocide as well.
So no, I don't feel ashamed. I decided on who I felt would do the least damage.
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I can't do it, and I'm appalled that our political system has descended to the depth where we're expected to choose between a Democratic genocide or a Republican genocide. How about giving voters the opportunity for a candidate who opposes genocide instead? Is that too much to ask?
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I'll ditto on well said as well.
People can still dislike Trump. They can fight against his policies. But getting so upset about him that one loses their temper just lets him win.
Re:US stupidity (Score:4, Insightful)
FYI: The world doesn't care about your input unless you force them to, and they will force their input on you. Those "boundaries" you've set up will come crashing down unless you fight and push them back. If you choose to put your head where the sun doesn't shine, well don't be surprised when some jackboot forcibly rips it back out to stomp all over it.
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Thinking bigger than my personal life ...
The problem is, you're not thinking about factors affecting the community or everyone's future life. You're thinking about one arsehole declaring her/his pettiness outweighs your sanity and serenity. People declaring you are the problem usually mean, you must enable their narcissism and laziness.
Obviously, keeping an abusive person in one's life is a recipe for unhappiness. It's important to see that change (point 1) means not 'fixing' her/his laziness (point 3) and avoiding that abuse at all cost (poi
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Personally, I tend to use "TDS" when people feel the need to bring Trump up even when the subject is far disconnected from him, and I'll do so for both sides - excessively pro AND excessively con.
In this case, Moryath is displaying what I'd consider an unhealthy level of aggrievance towards him.
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You need to look up what 'gaslighting' actually is. This isn't it. Going on profanity strewn rants isn't helpful.
Oh, and congratulations on pushing a fence sitter into voting republican. I mean, I'm generally a live and let live person, if consenting informed adults want to get married, let them, let transpeople transition, and all that.
But if you are just going to insult me, call me names, fine. I'll just go vote for them.
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Actually I do. Remember how I said I know I'm an asshole?
Do you really want to be driving people who really don't like Trump into his arms? Especially military trained people who know what jack boots really are?
Remember, I started this with saying to calm down, don't give yourself an aneurism over Trump. He's bad, but not worth dying a useless death over. Effective opposition, not ineffective.
In turn, I got called an inbred child abusing nazi.
If I'm inbred, so isn't Barack Obama
If I'm a nazi, so isn't Jo
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Not really. You need to stop accusing people of mental illness and more for supporting one of only two presidential candidates who have a chance, each with their upsides and downs. Theremare lots of reasons to support one or the other.
There are a lot of people out there that would, and do, say that Trump supporters are all mentally ill.
No, stuff is more complicated than that.
Remember, I'm the one asking people to calm down.
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Huh, wasn't aware that Harris was a racist felon rapist fascist.
Or did you miss the fact that stated I voted for Harris [slashdot.org] this time around?
I only stated that I'd vote for the other side AFTER Moryath called me a Nazi. Because, yes, I'm an asshole that way.
No, calming down alone won't get a fascist out of office. On the other hand, having a meltdown such that you attack your allies is going to help keep them in office instead. Damaging your health getting so upset that you lose rationality isn't helping. K
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I want to point out that by your standard you're Nazi as well.
Personally, I prefer to NOT refer to basically the entire US population as Nazis, waters down the definition to uselessness. Poisons discussions, makes it easy to write you off.
Same deal with accusations of child rape. Musk got into trouble for that sort of thing. Cost him a few million dollars. Don't be like Musk (in that fashion, creating new economic opportunities/getting rich is different).
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Why are you misgendering Kamala Harris?
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I'm not the one labeling 51% of the country as mentally ill, nor am I the one continuing to misgender Harris. Posting the exact same thing 3 times indicates the problem is more likely on your end. At this point, I'm not the awful one. I'm actually starting to be less of an asshole.
Why is voting for Kamala Harris, who you seem to insist is male, to be such an awful thing?
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I am. There's no excuse to elect a rapist, felon, insurrectionist again when we know he's already been a shit president, a traitor, a shit human being, and just fucking objectively awful in every way. Sorry, no, I'm not sanewashing any of that bullshit. THEY ARE INSANE. The definition of insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting different results. Well guess what, that's what 1/2 the country thinks is the way forward. And here you a
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I think that your posting of this, accusing somebody who's clearly trying to help you by encouraging you to calm down, to not let Trump's "negative waves" mess you up, indicates more about you than him.
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No, he's telling you not not get so upset over it that you hurt yourself.
Going on rants like yours just increases Trump's support.
I'm a Nazi shitbag? Fine, just for you, I will vote against my preferences and vote against the next homosexual rights and trans medical care candidate that comes up.
Congratulations, you just convinced somebody who voted for Harris, for pro-abortion rights, for trans medical care, to vote the opposite, because, yes, I'm a petty asshole.
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So how is that paying attention to unhealthy rhetoric working out for you? Figure out a way to stop him yet?
You make your own choices, but I think paying attention to him is _exactly_ what got us here. He's a troll who strategically freaks people out to get the results he is looking for. It's repeated over and over again and people don't get this. My ex-wife was a narc manipulator, my stepfather was a salesman manipulator, both psychopaths, so i'm perhaps better positioned to see this, but isn't it obvi
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You sound like Trump too.
Re: US stupidity (Score:3)
It must be Democratic because it has it right in the name, just like those nice national socialists!
Re: US stupidity (Score:2)
What really amazes me about neocons is that they base their strategic thinking on vibes only. This extends to the highest levels. Learn how your enemy thinks. Learn what they want. Read their books. They are studying you, while you are busy fabricating stories about them.
Re: US stupidity (Score:2)
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Easy: the USA - China economic war started in Trump's first term and only escalated since then
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Yup, and likely China will begin responding to the incoming administration before January. Why not do some pre-emptive tarrifs now and potentially cut them in later negotiations, which trump will claim he won hugely no matter what their actual outcome is? Any international thing that happens from the election to the inaguration is about the incoming administration, it would be silly to think otherwise.
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Fake news.
https://www.washingtonpost.com... [washingtonpost.com]
Note the date, 2013. The Chinese implemented a 57% tariff on solar grade polysilicon.
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That being said this realignment has been a long time coming, and China dang well knows it as well. Why do you think they've been spending ridiculous sums of money on their belt and road initiative as well as in Africa trying to secure mineral rights? Did you even know about the second? They've been doing it for over a decade with the US and EU doing the same thing, but on a slightly more polite level, and the deals from
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I wouldn't want to be a farmer if
If you think the damage will stop in the agriculture sector, you're just not thinking on it enough.
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I'm waiting for you to understand that export controls of sensitive technology with military applications have been a thing since the Export Control Act of 1949.
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The US is has been drinking it's own Kool-Aid for far too long now. The indispensible greatest country in the world can do no wrong and will emerge victorious from everything it undertakes. No brains needed. Results, accordingly, galore.
Another way to approach this - something has to be done about China, this is something, something has been done. Great success! Except.... not. The ascent of China cannot be viewed separately from the descent of the West in general, and the US in particular. Any policy that
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...The US, being nothing but a big Boeing of corruption, incompetence and lies by now, is going down. There is nothing but a complete wipe of all leadership theory, practice, institutions, law, and personell that could change the course. But none of those will give up their position in the nation without a fight, the only thing to take them out is a complete crash.
I agree with this, and pretty much everything you said above it as well. I'd like to see more, and more explicit, condemnation in your argument of the way in which corporate culture has spread like a cancer through the body politic to cause and exacerbate these problems, but to-MAY-to, to-MAH-to...
All China has to do to surpass is stay afloat, and watch the show.
True, but I'm not sure they can do that. They're doing fairly well in the early part of the contest, but I'm not convinced they'll manage to stave off the serious consequences of demographic collapse for very much
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The Chinese people have endured a major economic and/or social shakeup every generation or two for 5,000 years. They'll wait this one out, adjust their society and their economy, and continue on. The West doesn't have that sort of history, our last one was almost a century ago and I don't see a new FDR on the horizon.
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It is not an issue.
Rare earth materials are not rare, they are just not found in large concentrations of high purity veins which can be easily mined. The USA has plenty of domestic supply available. Before China undercut the market, the USA produced significant amounts -but the refining process is dirty, and in the USA environmental impact means expensive.
It was cheaper to buy from China than to make our own, but we can still make our own: we have the raw materials and we have the technology to process it.
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Any real war with China is likely to end with Nuclear weapons, and since the US isn't a one-party state, we're likely to be the target.
So escalation of a trade war that might turn into a real war is really not what we want.
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They really don't. The US needs to buy this stuff a lot more than China needs to sell it.
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China can sell widgets to the entire world, if they're not selling to the US they'll lower their costs and prices and sell to everyone else. Their economy will have a major blip, but they'll recover much better than we will.
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And the US economy is totally dependent upon exports from China.
Say, who do you think wins that one? China might hurt, but they have other customers. We only have that one supplier.
Anyone who wants to reduce dependence on China would do well to increase local supply of whatever it is we're getting from China BEFORE fucking up your sole source of supply, no?
Not just minerals China is cutting off (Score:4, Interesting)
Chinese banks are cutting banking services for Russian banks [newsweek.com] due to U.S. sanctions. Not a good look when your next door neighbor won't launder your money for you.
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Yeah, but China has a workaround, short-lived "burner banks" that don't operate on the international scene, and don't worry about being sanctioned. https://www.gisreportsonline.c... [gisreportsonline.com]
If you read the article (which is older than OPs article) it supports it...
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I have been reading about Chinese banks cutting business ties with Russian banks for at least the pass 6 months.
Not sure if this is even more banks cutting ties or just a repeat of the same stories.
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It's got to be a repeat, since China and Russia are doing a **LOT** of business now.
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Chinese banks are cutting banking services for Russian banks [newsweek.com] due to U.S. sanctions. Not a good look when your next door neighbor won't launder your money for you.
China is now more dependent on tech from the west, notably Europe than tech from Russia. They've managed to copy most of the Russian military tech that they need because it's relatively simple but can't produce half the stuff needed for their domestic airliners or trains... they buy European trains in CKD kit form, assemble in China and volia... domestically produced high speed train.
China won't burn Russia but they're happy to put the screws to them.
India on the other hand is still quite dependent on
Gallium... (Score:5, Interesting)
Since everyone is pontificating about their personal politics, etc... on a tech site...
Gallium is a notable dopant in semiconductor manufacturing. But it's just that, a dopant. It's properties are critical, but the amount used is kind of trivial. Worldwide I think we're up to maybe 700 - 900 tons of production a year, and only roughly 300 tons of that gets highly refined for semiconductor manufacturing.
Gallium has no primary ore. None of the crustal forces or geochemistry on Earth result in concentration. It's primarily extracted as a waste byproduct from aluminum & zinc smelting. Idle production from existing aluminum smelting is estimated at 2600 tons/yr.
So gallium is not a problem...
We used to make all of this stuff (Score:2, Troll)
We used to produce all of these minerals.
We can do it again.
We stopped because environmental regulations in this country made it cheaper to get them from somewhere else.
Those environmental regulations are going away, which is a damned shame for multiple reasons, but does make this a non-issue.
The prices of these minerals will go up, but they are mostly used in scarce quantities so that will not have a huge effect on prices for most goods which use them.
The only people this is going to be a big problem for a
lol troll (Score:2)
I would think that I was being penalized by Chinese mods, but there are comments in this thread which look down on China much more, so I conclude that it's just one of the coward trolls whose head I live in at all times.
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You're preaching to the choir, or at least I'm in the choir. I had a good paying job mining job with a bright future until Clinton, Gore, and Babbitt decided the West should be preserved for high quality low cost vacations for the urban elite.
After my own personal lost decade I did get a job at a chemical plant that made polysilicon for the solar market. Then the next Democrat, O-blah-blah, got into a trade war with China and they retaliated with a 57% tariff on polysilicon. The company held on until I reti
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Can we order rare earth refineries on Amazon, with 2-day Prime delivery?
No?
Then it's still going to be a problem. We don't have a local source for this stuff because we just stopped mining it and mothballed a bunch of production facilities. Those facilities don't exist. They have to be built. And that takes time.
China knows that, which is why they're blocking export to constrain the US market rather than just slapping on an export tariff. They want to constrain supply knowing that we can't just increas
Re: We used to make all of this stuff (Score:2)
"we just stopped mining it and mothballed a bunch of production facilities. Those facilities don't exist. They have to be built. And that takes time."
Did we mothball the factories or do we have to build them? Pick one.
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As the shutdown time increases, the time and cost to reactivate mothballed facilities approaches that of just building new. Sometimes it's cheaper to just remove what was there previously and build new.
As time goes on, not only are parts of the facilities still degrading and need replacement to reactivate, it isn't keeping up with industry improvements and such. So an "ideal" production facility changes over time.
I remember being told about a silver mine in college where they were still extracting metals
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Missing word. Should have been "We don't have a local source for this stuff because we didn't just stop mining it and mothball a bunch of production facilities."
Those facilities never existed, or if they did (and still do - usually we don't leave large dirty industrial facilities just sitting around for decades) they probably couldn't be started back up again without a refit that would be more expensive than just building new.
China's export controls take effect for some value of "immediately" while we won'
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Well said.
I would mod-up to counter the down-mod, but I already commented in the thread.
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Do you have any idea what is entailed in a major new refining startup? You're talking years just for the construction of the site and purchasing and installation of equipment. Depending on the economic situation the financing of the project will take months to years more before the project can even be started. Sure, we can do it, but do we have the stockpiles of material to wait that long?
looking at the long term... (Score:2)
China has stated they plan on taking Taiwan by end of 2027... is the US supposed to wait until they are in a hot war with China and respond to them cutting off the supply then, all the while keep feeding the dragon more advanced tech? Only reason China has dominance in the rare earth market is they spent the last 30+ years undercutting prices, flooding the markets and buying up competition. Which had the benefit of cheaper minerals for the world, but also a single supplier dominance that can cut you off w
Re: looking at the long term... (Score:2)
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yeah.. i do... it was literally the last sentence i wrote that said it. And it's also why countries have national strategic reserves for rare earth metals. For these very eventualities.
And how is a group of companies mining a resource and selling it on the market, setting the price not having the same risk as China having the very same capacity to set the price?
Except, you know... multiple producers... one sets price lower, gets more sales... which prevents the others from charging too much... they can o
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which prevents the others from charging too much... they can only set a price if they collude, and there are some controls to protect against that
Yeah, look at the oil market where such a thing doesn't really exist.
Plus, I'll take a greedy guy selling to me, than one that has an agenda and can cut me off..
But that's also exactly what the US does, cutting others off.
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Oil Market is actually a great example.. while Opec can set it's price.. there are enough other producers globally that Opec needs to be careful with how greedy they can get.
as for the US doing it... in a way- yes... but the difference is- US cuts off access to advanced tech (AI chips)... you can still buy from anyone else, not the best options, but there are.. not to mention China's domestic capacity to build and develop them... but when you are the only one producing a thing- i.e. a mineral... and you cut
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Why do you think the US should have any say over what people in Taiwan or China do? Are you willing to go die to keep Taiwan within the US Empire?
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I don't think the US has a say on what people do IN their own countries... unless you know, the people don't have the power to protect themselves, and are abused by their "leaders". I do believe that the strong have a moral responsibility to protect the weak from those that wish them harm. I was fortunate, and managed to live outside of that hellscape... my parents were not, and they fought to rid their country of oppression.
My biggest issues are when someone tries to exert their own wants on someone else
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unless you know, the people don't have the power to protect themselves, and are abused by their "leaders"
So were you at least in the protest lines for Occupy Wall Street?
when someone tries to exert their own wants on someone else by force
I noticed you didn't mention Israel, why might that be? Or for that matter the biggest offender of all, the Untied States, which has been forcing its will on innocents around the planet for over a century.
Re:looking at the long term... (Score:4, Insightful)
again.. not american... so why would i be in new york protesting? Stop making stupid assumptions and changing the discussion to try and rescue your point.
And why would i mention Israel? or any number of other conflicts... I mean, i could have... to make my point... so here it goes... Israel got attacked, and responded in kind. They literally left Gaza... and built a wall to separate the two. They (Israel) offered state hood and were rejected... Which party there is the aggressor? The party that literally left, and built a barrier saying you do your thing on your side... we do out thing... and then got attacked for it.. with civilians being the ones taking the brunt of the attack. neither party is 100% innocent and free of doing di*k moves... They both screwed up...
By your logic, a nation that is stronger should NOT retaliate in full force and instead be limited to only proportional retaliatory attacks (they kill one, we kill one)? I have no issue with what happened between Israel and Gaza. I have sympathy for the people of Gaza suffering now. But they are only suffering because a bunch of Hamas pricks decided to lead the entire population into a war they had no hope of winning. And while it's not as simple as this- Hamas was allowed to take control of the country, and supported by enough of the population to allow the current situation to happen. It wasn't Israel acting in a vacuum.
Had Hamas devoted all that energy and money into build the nation, education, health and not into building tunnels, buying up weapons etc... Palestine would have been in a great spot. They chose this path. (and yes, i do realize it's not black and white, and as simple as i make it out... but need to simplify it for ease of digestion by Cusco)
Feel free to elaborate on how the US, has been forcing it's will on the innocents by INVADING THEIR SOVERIGN LANDS AND TAKING THEM AS PART OF THEIR OWN. Name one country the US invaded in the last 100 years that is part of the USA? Name one neighbor the US is threatening war with? Wars, where the US invaded (Often with UN support, after being attacked, or after their citizens were attacked) and eventually left - sure.. numerous... actually taking over to expand? not aware of any even after doing some searching - but it's not my field... I'm sure you're a historian with some actual facts to back up your statements.
Backfire (Score:2)
Re: Backfire (Score:2)