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Transportation Canada

Canada Announces First High-Speed Rail Between Toronto and Quebec City (www.cbc.ca) 199

Posted by BeauHD from the early-stages dept.
The Canadian government has launched a six-year, $3.9 billion design phase for a high-speed rail project connecting Toronto and Quebec City, with electric trains reaching up to 300 km/h. Construction is expected to begin after the design phase, potentially in four to five years, but future governments could modify or cancel the project. CBC News reports: "Today I'm announcing the launch of Alto, the largest infrastructure project in Canadian history," Trudeau said from Montreal. "A reliable, efficient, high-speed rail network will be a game-changer for Canadians." Trudeau said the new rail network will run all-electric trains along 1,000 kilometers of track, reaching speeds of up to 300 km/hour, with stops in Toronto, Peterborough, Ottawa, Montreal, Laval, Trois-Rivieres and Quebec City. A government statement said the project will stimulate the economy, "boosting GDP by up to $35 billion annually, creating over 51,000 good-paying jobs during construction."

Trudeau said that once built, the new high-speed rail network will take passengers from Montreal to Toronto in three hours -- about half the time it takes to drive and at double the speed of Via Rail's current trains. [...] Trudeau said the consortium Cadence -- made up of CDPQ Infra, Atkins Realis, Keolis, SYSTRA, SNCF Voyageurs and Air Canada -- was selected to build the line. The group was only informed in the last 24 hours that their bid was the best of the three submitted, according to sources that spoke to Radio-Canada. Transport Minister Anita Anand said that Alto, the Crown corporation created to oversee the project, and Cadence will be signing a contract "in the coming weeks" that will outline the first-phase design work, such as where track will be laid and where stations will be built.

Canada Announces First High-Speed Rail Between Toronto and Quebec City More | Reply

Canada Announces First High-Speed Rail Between Toronto and Quebec City

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  • Peepee (Score:3)

    by fluffernutter ( 1411889 ) on Thursday February 20, 2025 @05:18AM (#65181167)
    This will probably never happen. To many people blame Trudeau for the pandemic, related expenses, and resulting global inflation so he has already had to resign. Questionable whether the next PM will support it, even though long distance trains are the right move. Poillivre definitely won't be able to support it since he wants to balance the budget, build pipelines from East to West, and build affordable housing. Questionable how he will afford even that.

    • Re:Peepee (Score:5, Interesting)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Thursday February 20, 2025 @06:48AM (#65181245) Homepage Journal

      Let's hope that Canada isn't such a basket case, like other countries, when it comes to infrastructure. Somehow many European countries manage to do large, long term projects over multiple administrations, probably because they have coalition governments rather than single party rule.

      They are using French trains which are well proven and reliable. It's not hugely ambitious, so should not be too difficult to pull off.

      • I find it both unusual and troubling that one of those French companies is owned by the French government. Something smells wrong there.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          That's pretty common in Europe, especially for public transport. It works a lot better when it's publicly owned, and is cheaper for the user too.

          Japan used to have publicly owned railways, and when they privatized them they put in strict rules to make sure that they operated in the public interest. The UK didn't, and it was a disaster.

  • Gotta get that pork spending in quickly to grease a lot of palms before he's out of office so he can have something cushy lined up.
    • They will gave to print that plan on gold leaf to account for a small fraction of a percent of the billions spent.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by fluffernutter ( 1411889 )
        Yes, when the Liberals do it, it's bad. But when the conservatives do it, and when they make promises that don't even make sense, everyone is totally oblivious. It's getting very old. Again, Trump.
    • You do know that Toronto, Montreal and Quebec City are some of the largest cities in Canada and are relatively close by?
      • They are also arranged in more or less a straight line with no mountains or other obstacles in the way. Something like 80% of people in Canada live in this corridor. It's probably the best corridor in North America for high speed rail.

        • Toronto to Quebec City is 800 km for 18 million people.

          Washington to Boston is 630 km for 50 million people.

          Some twisty bits on the Boston end, mostly for historical reason, but the NYC to Washington part is just as flat and straight as Toronto to Montreal, and that's only 325 km compared to 550.

          No contest.

        • Something like 80% of people in Canada live in this corridor.

          Really? That's funny because more than 25% of Canada live in BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba so the rest of Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes must all be deserted then. When did this happen?

  • But Canada's #1 priority right now should be increasing defense spending.

    It takes time to ramp up training, longer to acquire hardware, and even longer to build out production infrastructure. It needs to start immediately.

    • I agree, but that will take taxes and people always complain about an increase in taxes.

    • But Canada's #1 priority right now should be increasing defense spending.

      To defend against Trump? Last time America tried to invade Canada, it went badly. If Trump tries again, it will go badly again, for different reasons.

      Trump is not eternal. "In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer. And that makes me happy. For it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there’s something stronger" --Camus.

      He will end.

      • But Canada's #1 priority right now should be increasing defense spending.

        To defend against Trump? Last time America tried to invade Canada, it went badly. If Trump tries again, it will go badly again, for different reasons.

        They should have done it in 2022 when it became impossible to ignore that war with Russia was no longer so hypothetical. They arguably should have done it long before that to meet their NATO defense spending commitments.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by RobinH ( 124750 )
          They did approve the rather expensive F-35 contract that year. But you can keep ignoring inconvenient facts if you want.

          • That's great!

            What's the plan for covering the rest of the spending gap? Let's see some more procurement and, ideally, the creation of some domestic defense industrial base.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by Rei ( 128717 )

        To defend against Trump? Last time America tried to invade Canada, it went badly. If Trump tries again, it will go badly again, for different reasons.

        The US spends 916B per year on its military. Canada, 27B. But it's even worse than that sounds, because *Canada does not have a military designed to function independently*. On many key capabilities it is either grossly deficient or lacks them entirely, as it's premised on defense with allies. Namely, the US.

        Let's ignore for now the US's >3,7k nukes. The

        • There is absolutely no need for Canada to have a military designed to function independently. In the modern world, the goal of having a military should be to avoid having to use it. Practically speaking, in the entire world, there is only one country with a real navy. No one else can realistically project force any meaningful distance from their borders. If Trump invaded Canada, it would start a civil war in the US.

          "Freedom is only to be found where there is burden to be shouldered. In creative achieveme

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Rei ( 128717 )

            If Trump invaded Canada, it would start a civil war in the US.

            Once again: you're betting your sovereignty on a fantasy.

            That's just not how these things work.

            Your sovereignty isn't preserved because of some imaginary scenario where Americans will mass rise up against against their military and not be instantly put down. Or where some large chunk of soldiers will ignore their commanding officers' orders. Protests and random defections will not save you if the order is given. Get out of this fantasy.

    • Trains with guns on.

      Don't know why, but I just like 'em.

  • Nobody wants to fly to Toronto

    • OMG I wish I had mod points, that is so true.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dskoll ( 99328 )

        Actually, if you're flying from one of the cities the rail line is supposed to serve, you can take Porter airlines and land in Toronto City Airport. It's smack downtown and a very pleasant experience.

        Pearson, yes, is a horror show.

  • Someone is going to be pulling in $4 million for every mile of track they ... draw ?!
    • There are a lot of logistics involved. Canada is quite concerned about the environment. Not all the land is stable, though I suppose that is great canadian shield so it shouldn't be that bad.. But it is not flat, and there is winter and freeze and thaw, with 10 foot snow drifts that can appear overnight. Also this should be the start of a network not just a standalone track, so I would expect money to go to planning how that would go afterwards.

    • The most important part of high speed rail: Eliminate Grade Crossings (every crossing is a bridge). I'd support this, even without a shinkansen-type train.

      For comparison, this was what the Accella did between Boston and DC.

  • The first state with high speed rail? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Bender Unit 22 ( 216955 ) on Thursday February 20, 2025 @07:14AM (#65181299) Journal

    So is this the first state in the US with a high speed rail?

    • Re:The first state with high speed rail? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Thursday February 20, 2025 @08:50AM (#65181563)
      You know my favorite thing was we were talking briefly about invading Mexico and making it a state while also talking about deporting all the illegals to Mexico. So we were going to deport the illegals all the way to Mexico then make them citizens again. That's the kind of hard-hitting leadership I expect from Donald Trump and Elon Musk.

    • So is this the first state in the US with a high speed rail?

      I know you're joking and it is a good joke, but I want to point out that Florida has working private high speed rails run by Brightline that reach a top speed of 125 MPH between north Miami and Orlando. Brightline is currently building a Las Vegas to Los Angeles line that will top out around 200 MPH. There was talk of Brightline building a line to connect Tampa and Orlando but those plans are on hold for now and it's unclear if it will ever happen.

  • The Canadian government has launched a six-year, $3.9 billion design phase for a high-speed rail..

    Gee, now where have we also found such money-laundering projects being initiated by those who don’t actually intend to finish anything but a decade-long taxpayer grift, with blame laid on the “opposition”?

    Fuckboy PM might as well call himself the Newsom of the North.

  • Two Canadian engineering firms, two French train companies (one owned by the French government?), and an airline?

    An airline.

    • I was a bit surprised too, but it makes strategic sense. Air travel is still reliant on refined fossil fuels, which is both dependent on world politics (even if Canada has some extraction of raw oil), and will face restrictions or taxation if climate policy required to meet Paris Agreement targets are actually enacted. Like France banning short-distance flights in favor of TGV trains. Battery technology for air travel is still range limited, and biofuels are expensive and limited in supply. Investing in rai

    • Re:Strange list of companies (Score:5, Informative)

      by fred6666 ( 4718031 ) on Thursday February 20, 2025 @08:46AM (#65181551)

      Yes HSR is not a replacement for regular trains and bus, it's a replacement for air travel in most cases.

      The Alto HSR could eliminate all the needs for Quebec-Montreal and Montreal-Ottawa flights. As well as many of the Toronto-Ottawa and even Toronto-Montreal ones.
      So there is an opportunity for an airline here to have single combined rail+air tickets, and have rail stations by Montreal and Ottawa's airports to allow fast connections.
      Combined tickets are quite common in Europe.

  • You know everyone is going to get off at Montreal.

    • While most people won't do the whole Toronto to Quebec city trip (total travel time will probably be comparable to flying if you are going to the city center), a lot of people will do Quebec city to Montreal or Ottawa to Quebec city.

    • I would go so far as to say there's no point in such a corridor being any longer than Toronto to Montreal... which is still going to be a 2h+ trip even on high speed rail.

      If travel duration is important to you, it's probably better to get a regional airline to take you there in half the time. Worse for the environment, of course, but that's not going to be part of the calculation for most companies or people.

      I am curious as to how a high speed train will remain safe in Canadian winters. The 401 corridor

  • and a transfer of public funds into friends + families. $3.9 billion for *just* consultation. I'd love to be that consultation firm.

  • Three hours one-way (and that's not counting the time at the station, nor getting to the station) is too long for a commute. And trains never run at their max speed, so it's more than three hours just on the train. With the normal delays, stops on the way, and the time at the station, you're looking at least four hours. More like 5-6 hours if you count getting to and from the station.

    It's going to effectively be an all-day trip.
    At that point, who cares if the train is so fast.
    You're going to want to work,

  • Not even hiding the scam now (Score:3)

    by ThumpBzztZoom ( 6976422 ) on Thursday February 20, 2025 @10:02AM (#65181777)

    It's so refreshing that they're not even pretending like they're going to build anything anymore with these projects.

    $3.9 billion for the design phase means that, assuming they get every single one of Canada's 4.1 million annual domestic train passengers to ride this train, it would take 20 years of every passenger paying an additional $47.56 per ticket to pay off the "design phase". Please note that this does not include any construction or operating costs whatsoever, just design.

    That is $3.9 million for each kilometer of track for...design? It's not like they have to invent the train. I'm assuming this plan includes floral patterns for full-journey-length landscaping? I'm not sure how you spend this much on "design" for technology as old as trains. Even high speed rail is 60 years old. FYI, it would cost roughly $2 billion to "design" the system by building a 11m wide, two lane road with drainage the entire length of the route and painting lines where the tracks should go. If they find some "bargain" government architects who would "only" take a measly $200 million each to design one of the 5 stations, and this plan saves the government almost $1 billion on the project, and when (no if needed here) it fails, at least you have a new road.

    The lowest costs for building high speed rail in modernized countries is currently around $20 million/km. That would add $244 to the ticket, in addition to the design phase costs, or roughly $290/ticket just to pay off the design and construction in 20 years. Finally, add the operational costs. This would be the ticket price, assuming perfect accuracy in estimation, civic-minded contractors giving patriotically low bids with no overruns, well-defined unchanging project parameters from the government, and perfect efficiency in execution. In every other scenario, also known as reality, the ticket prices are a lot more than that.

    Absolutely best case scenario, this is a $24 billion project. You could build large international airports in every city this stops in for far less money, and, unlike train stations, airports connect you to every other airport for thousands of miles, and need a lot less land purchases than 1000km of tracks.

    High speed rail project in North America are scams that are counting on you to never do the math. Not a single one stands up to the simple math above, the ones that project a ticket price do not use reasonable or even rationally possible numbers in their passenger estimations. (e.g. LA to Vegas route assumes that all travel to Vegas from everywhere in the world doubles, and that every single traveler will go to Rancho Cucamonga (40 miles outside of LA) first and board the train).

    • A study to determine the optimal achievable track paths, followed by a survey to confirm the best choice, followed by a study of where you're going to put stations and have to modify roads with over or under passes, another study of how you're going to mitigate the effects of Canadian winters on high speed rail safety, yet another about the costs of land purchase and political fallout from use of eminent domain powers.

      You could easily blow tens of millions on that, even hundreds... but $4 billion seems like

      • You ask for more than you need... that is how things actually work. Ideally, you do not spend all the budgeted money. They may need to actually INVENT something because to me the idea of a train going that fast in the winter sounds pretty new. Anybody know of a high speed example in that kind of weather? Some engineering and schools get money to work on that⦠the whole process of building one of those is new for them isn't it? Even failure will produce useful lessons.

        The plan should also be buyi

  • After more than $20 billion we managed to build a line (not electrified) from nowhere to nowhere. Plenty of politicians made a lot of money by buying land and selling it to HRT.

  • I'd love to have high-speed rail... being able to get from my hometown of Ottawa to Toronto in 2h would be fantastic. However, this is going to be a public-private partnership, probably, which means it'll be late, expensive, and sub-par.

    I have no idea why North American governments are so unwilling to actually invest in public infrastructure that the people own. Why do they feel the need to give it to for-profit companies? This can only cost more money than it otherwise would.

  • Canada, the new California!

  • When we were in the UK last summer, we used Britrail (or whatever it's called now). *Ordinary trains*, not premium, ran at 125mph.

    But dolts in the US would rather spend two hours getting to the airport, flying for an hour (assuming it pulls away from the gate on time), then an hour and a half getting off the plane and into town.

    Rather than two hours, downtown to downtown.

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