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Software Programming

Software Engineering Job Openings Hit Five-Year Low (pragmaticengineer.com) 60

Posted by msmash from the closer-look dept.
Software engineering job listings have plummeted to a five-year low, with postings on Indeed dropping to 65% of January 2020 levels -- a steeper decline than any other tech-adjacent field. According to data from Indeed's job aggregator, software development positions are now at 3.5x fewer vacancies compared to their mid-2022 peak and 8% lower than a year ago.

The decline appears driven by multiple factors including widespread adoption of AI coding tools -- with 75% of engineers reporting use of AI assistance -- and a broader tech industry recalibration after aggressive pandemic-era hiring. Notable tech companies like Salesforce are maintaining flat engineering headcount while reporting 30% productivity gains from AI tools, according to an analysis by software engineer Gergely Orosz.

While the overall job market shows 10% growth since 2020, software development joins other tech-focused sectors in decline: marketing (-19%), hospitality (-18%), and banking/finance (-7%). Traditional sectors like construction (+25%), accounting (+24%), and electrical engineering (+20%) have grown significantly in the same period, he wrote. The trend extends beyond U.S. borders, with Canada showing nearly identical patterns. European markets and Australia demonstrate more resilience, though still below peak levels.

Software Engineering Job Openings Hit Five-Year Low More | Reply

Software Engineering Job Openings Hit Five-Year Low

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  • we removed the fake h1b jobs for the year! (Score:3)

    by Joe_Dragon ( 2206452 ) on Friday February 21, 2025 @09:19AM (#65184553)

    we removed the fake h1b jobs for the year!

    • Correct. Also, foremost college kids in the US don't have a particular big appetite for joining the ranks of IT workers when they know they all have the Sword of Damocles over their neck as the suit-weasels are still convinced that if they offshore the engineers to India, they will end up looking great and get rewarded. Nobody wants to join that. It's like picking tomatoes "Fuck it. Let the brown people and AI do that shit. I don't speak Hindi or Spanish. I'll be another suit weasel. They seem to be doing f
  • I don't understand the term "software engineer" unless it's like a trash collector calling themselves a "sanitary engineer." Who administers the licensing for such type of engineering?

    Regardless, a lot of software has been developed over the last several decades. What exactly would one want to set out and develop at this point? I'm sure there is some software for new aircraft and such. And there might be some recreation necessary for software that exists but the necessary hardware isn't readily availa

    • Re:We largely have enough software (Score:4, Informative)

      by godrik ( 1287354 ) on Friday February 21, 2025 @09:38AM (#65184595)

      This is a very strange statement. There are TONS of software that are just not written yet.
      We may have software that look like it, but not necessarily a ready made software that does the thing in the right context.

      We (basically) didn't have LLMs 4 years ago. Do you think we have written all the software that will eventually use an LLM to power it?
      Someone needed to write the software that makes an LLM output images. Someone had to write the software that takes a description and leverages LLMs to generate videos.
      Then you need to write the code that plugs that into ms paint, into photoshop, into google slides, into office 365, ...
      There are TONS of software to write that will be useful.

      Now, maybe there is code that looks like it and that has already done for some of it. But if it doesn't work out of the box, you are going to need software enginneers to make the connections.

      • The key word there is someone needs to keep writing software, but that's not everyone, it's not the majority, and it's not even the many.

        The Software development bubble is finally bursting, it's time to learn another skill. The world can never be built by everyone sitting in a chair copy and pasting code all day. We need people that can actually build things out here in the physical world.

        The only reason manual or physical work is not as high paying as sitting at a desk is because those at the desk ar

    • Re:We largely have enough software (Score:4, Insightful)

      by russotto ( 537200 ) on Friday February 21, 2025 @09:52AM (#65184625) Journal

      There have been engineers for longer than there have been licenses to be engineers. That civil engineers (and to a lesser extent mechanical) have beholden themselves to bureaucrats in exchange for a fancy title and the right to be personally liable if any of their employees fucks up is their problem.

      • Lawsuits have led to professional organizations of engineers.

        Luckily, software is not generally valuable enough to lead to such lawsuits.

      • I like it that higher-end civil and structural engineers are licensed, for what seem like obvious reasons. But it doesn't mean the same system would transfer over and provide value for software engineering. They're different.
        • Right so why not call them computer programmers or software developers?

        • I like it that higher-end civil and structural engineers are licensed

          Just more government gatekeeping and control and more authoritarianism. Hold the companies making dangerous/faulty/fraudulent products responsible, not the engineers. Otherwise we might as well get rid of corporate personhood that's done such a great job of shielding management from liability. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?

    • Way too soon to predict this will be the time it never comes back which it was so strong for so long. Maybe too strong for too long. Seek medical help if you experience an erection lasting more than 4 hours!! [youtu.be]

    • At my job I have to use an engineering design process to qualify and quantify my results. It's just software, as in I edit a text file all day long, but they put it in cars.

      I don't actually care if you call me a software developer or software engineer. Among software engineers we call each other that generally (SW eng vs HW eng). It's kind of like how in academics half the people are doctors but aren't called that in the outside world.

      As for why write any new software. People keep making new hardware, often

      • If you are adding an AI assistant, you don't call yourself a software engineer or computer programmer. You are an AI specialist or whatever and you get paid twice as much to write code of half the quality.

      • Among peers it was always engineer, as soon as I moved from "data processing" / programmer, to realtime embedded. During jury selection voir dire long ago, I stated my occupation as "software engineer", and was somewhat sneeringly asked by defense counsel "do you have an engineering degree". Even if I'd had a CS degree, CS at the local major university was not part of the engineering school, but was a division of the mathematics department. My last few times in voir dire, I said "embedded systems softwar

        • My BSCS was obtained at the Engineering college of a university.
          I have held titles of Network Engineer, Software Engineer, Systems Analyst, Embedded Developer over my years.

          Engineering as a description of software development of a certain level has existed since the advent of digital computers.
          It makes sense when you look at what goes into the architectural development of large softwares.
          The use of the term "engineer" is very old. Licensing of its practitioners is very new.
          Engineers first referred to
          • We tried using trebuchets as cash dispensers, but they could not handle the larger denominations of Yap stone money, and tended to fragment the smaller denominations at the delivery point. Also, the expected labor savings were not realized.

    • I don't understand the term "software engineer" unless it's like a trash collector calling themselves a "sanitary engineer." Who administers the licensing for such type of engineering?

      You're going to get a lot of guff for this, but you're right. It's basically job title inflation for ego stroking. We used to have programmers. Now we have software engineers. We used to have teachers. Now we have "educators". We used to have garbage men. Now we have "waste management professionals". Pretty soon, the mailman is going to become something like a "physical communications facilitator" or some nonsense.

      • It's okay I have karma to burn. But thanks for being concerned.

      • You're going to get a lot of guff for this, but you're right.

        They are. But that's because they're wrong, not right. That makes you wrong too.

        It's basically job title inflation for ego stroking.

        Sure, except that engineering job titles predate the ego stroking of the engineer licensing cartels.

        We used to have programmers. Now we have software engineers.

        A funny claim, since the term software engineer was used in the 60s.
        I bet all the programmers from the 50s enjoyed the upgrade.

        You're an idiot.

    • This tired fucking bullshit again.

      Who administers the licensing? Nobody.
      You are an engineer by the fact that your role is to engineer.

      You seem to think that all engineers are PEs. This is stupid. Do yourself a favor and stop being stupid.

    • We always need new software. At the minimum, security threats never stay static, so there is always that, which needs engineering to work with. There are also new ways of interaction as well. For example, if asymmetric cryptography is left broken by Shor's Algorithm, then working on ways to use symmetric crypto until new public key algorithms can be put in place and tested.

      Manufacturing as well. 3D printing is evolving, not just by hardware, but evolution like variable pressure, staggered layer lines (l

    • Reminds me of the quote attributed to the Commissioner of the USPTO in 1889: https://www.reorbit.space/news... [www.reorbit.space].

      He is widely quoted as having stated that the patent office would soon need to shrink in size, and eventually close, because, according to his perspective:— Everything that can be invented has been invented.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Dan667 ( 564390 )
      the horse and buggy exists. Why would anyone try and create a different mode of transportation! /s
      • There were 13,000 buggy manufacturers prior to the invention of the automobile. If they employed an average of 10 people, that would be 130k employees. There are 150k people who work in automobile manufacturing today. i.e. the number of people needed to manufacture has remained constant. You can't have a higher and higher percentage of the world write software until that's all anybody is doing.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Dan667 ( 564390 )
          and you just proved my point. You would never invent the automobile.
          • No, you're missing my point. Let's use something less emotional. Right now, 18% of the US economy is health care. It's been growing steadily. And there are *many* open healthcare jobs. To what percentage will healthcare grow? It can't grow past 100%, that's for sure. Lets say that it settles at 20% of the economy. At that point, there won't be nearly as many job openings in healthcare. That won't mean that there aren't healthcare jobs ore even that it's a bad career. Just that it's no longer growin
  • So.... DON'T learn to code, then?
    • Sure, if you want to be replaced by Pradeep and Suresh, go for it. Your career will last 15 minutes after you graduate.

  • COVID bubble (Score:3)

    by Dan East ( 318230 ) on Friday February 21, 2025 @10:10AM (#65184667) Journal

    The massive COVID software development bubble burst, as represented by the graphs in the article. So the 5 year decline is totally expected and understandable.

    What the article does not show in the various graphs are the months and years prior to the onset of COVID, which is what is meaningful to try to determine the real trajectory the profession was on. So I'm not really sure the point of the article stating the obvious (everyone scrambled for remote work and education during COVID causing a huge boom in software development, which has dropped consistently since then).

    What I do not see in the graphs is an sudden drop off in the last two years triggered by AI advancement.

    • Not just a bubble (Score:4, Interesting)

      by gillbates ( 106458 ) on Friday February 21, 2025 @10:28AM (#65184721) Homepage Journal

      For reference, at the height of the industrial revolution in the United States, steel workers made the inflation-adjusted equivalent of $85k per year.

      But just a few decades later, the working class would be the subject of Upton Sinclair's The Jungle - a polemic about the terrible working conditions of the slaughterhouses. The inflation adjusted wage of steel workers today is far lower than it was in the heyday of the industrial revolution.

      At the height of the dot-com boom, engineers could do consulting for $200 per hour. Today, "full stack" engineers can expect to start out making $15/hour - adjusted for inflation, that's a third of what I made in my first entry level position.

      This trend of "capital chasing" occurs in every industry. At first, the industry chases investor capital, and the salaries are high. But once the business becomes established, the focus moves from market capitalization to cost control, and the MBAs come in and the salaries drop. This is happening now in the software engineering field. It started with guaranteed student loans - to encourage a glut of programmers - but then moved to H1B's and offshoring, and now Corporate America is trying to reduce wages with AI. Eventually, writing code will be like math - something everyone was "taught" in high school, but not something they particularly like to do. It will no longer be a skill which sets someone apart from everyone else.

      I don't advise the younger generation to go into programming. The downward pressure on wages is a several decade trend - and it happens in every industry. Instead, I advise people to learn a skill they can offer to the general public - either start a business, learn law, medicine, or one of the trades. The only people who will be able to maintain a middle class standard of living in the future are those who own or run their own businesses. Because if history teaches us anything, it's that the workers always get the short end of the deal. It's always been that way, and aside from the "capital chasing" phase of an industry, will always be that way.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Pizza ( 87623 )

        At the height of the dot-com boom, engineers could do consulting for $200 per hour. Today, "full stack" engineers can expect to start out making $15/hour - adjusted for inflation, that's a third of what I made in my first entry level position.

        ...Fast food joints in semi-rural North Florida are currently advertising *starting* pay of $15/hour. That works out to about $30K/year if full time.

        • You only need 80 hours a week out of a family of 3 just to pay for a roof over the head and car reasonable to get everyone to the am shift at the golden arches in the panhandle or do 45 at call center and add some on call that rate from Pune India. The person with India can invest 25% in retirement savings.

          Full stack engineers == Novell Engineer == Windows Admin == HTML Programer == Deskside Support==General Programer without an Focus Industry==FRIES WITH DAT?.
        • In the bubble, I was $175 per hour with near no skills, programing with notepad. Today I bill out at $175 and my marketable skill seems to be service now and dealing with braindead management asking about AI filling the lack of Jrs.

        • The Taco Bell near me has signs adverting that they are hiring with slogans like "vamos a veinte". Most of the signs were in English, but that Spanish one was the catchiest and easier for me to remember.

      • I advise the younger generation that "programming" is a trade, and they should treat it as such. And that "computer science" is done on the whiteboard, not the keyboard.

      • For reference, at the height of the industrial revolution in the United States, steel workers made the inflation-adjusted equivalent of $85k per year.

        Trying to equate what steelworkers made in the latter 1800's to $85K per year in 2025 is a dodgy calculation to say the least.

        In what way were they better off than anybody today? Better food? More living space per person? Fewer working hours? Longer life expectancy? No, no, no, and no. It's meaningless.

        • I live in steel mill region and have ton of friends with all sort of liberal arts degrees working as millwrights and operators, there is almost nobody at the mills earning less than $85k for 40 hours a week, and with OT and holiday pay the typical 10 years in guy is at $135k taking 3 weeks a year off. The guys off the street working for a contractor running a pressure washer are paid 45/hr after showing up for 10 weeks strait. If your hungry and take every double shift that opens up, $165k isnt all that

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Pizza ( 87623 )

            Working 3000 hours a year over 48 weeks for a steel mill is normal under the union contracts. The dirt and grime is the enemy, the rest of the conditions are reasonable for heavy industry if you listen to the safety rules.

            I call bullshit. 3000 hours over a year is just shy of 58 hours a week, every week (52, not 48!), for an entire year. An average of 8.24 hours a day, every day, for an entire year. As in, overtime every single day, zero time off for any reason whatsoever. And if you exclude weekends, that's 11.5 hours a day, five days a week, every week, for an entire year.

            Shorten that to 48 weeks, you're looking at 9 hours a day, 7 days a week, or 12.5 hours a day if only working weekdays. For 48 weeks.

            That is impossib

      • We pay entry-level "full stack" developers ~$40 an hour. I make over twice that with a few other specialties tacked onto my job description.
        If you're making $15/hr in such a position- shop around, you can do better.
  • who tf goes to indeed for a programming job? Rust job market is booming, nothing to see here
  • what a fucking dumb blog post

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