'The People Stuck Using Ancient Windows Computers' (bbc.com) 73
The BBC visits "the strange, stubborn world of obsolete Windows machines."
Even if you're a diehard Apple user, you're probably interacting with Windows systems on a regular basis. When you're pulling cash out, for example, chances are you're using a computer that's downright geriatric by technology standards. (Microsoft declined to comment for this article.) "Many ATMs still operate on legacy Windows systems, including Windows XP and even Windows NT," which launched in 1993, says Elvis Montiero, an ATM field technician based in Newark, New Jersey in the US. "The challenge with upgrading these machines lies in the high costs associated with hardware compatibility, regulatory compliance and the need to rewrite proprietary ATM software," he says. Microsoft ended official support for Windows XP in 2014, but Montiero says many ATMs still rely on these primordial systems thanks to their reliability, stability and integration with banking infrastructure.
And a job listing for an IT systems administrator for Germany's railway service "were expected to have expertise with Windows 3.11 and MS-DOS — systems released 32 and 44 years ago, respectively. In certain parts of Germany, commuting depends on operating systems that are older than many passengers." It's not just German transit, either. The trains in San Francisco's Muni Metro light railway, for example, won't start up in the morning until someone sticks a floppy disk into the computer that loads DOS software on the railway's Automatic Train Control System (ATCS). Last year, the San Francisco Municipal Transit Authority (SFMTA) announced its plans to retire this system over the coming decade, but today the floppy disks live on.
Apple is "really aggressive about deprecating old products," M. Scott Ford, a software developer who specialises in updating legacy systems, tells the BBC. "But Microsoft took the approach of letting organisations leverage the hardware they already have and chasing them for software licenses instead. They also tend to have a really long window for supporting that software."
And so you get things like two enormous LightJet printers in San Diego powered by servers running Windows 2000, says photographic printer John Watts: Long out of production, the few remaining LightJets rely on the Windows operating systems that were around when these printers were sold. "A while back we looked into upgrading one of the computers to Windows Vista. By the time we added up the money it would take to buy new licenses for all the software it was going to cost $50,000 or $60,000 [£38,000 to £45,000]," Watts says. "I can't stand Windows machines," he says, "but I'm stuck with them...."
In some cases, however, old computers are a labour of love. In the US, Dene Grigar, director of the Electronic Literature Lab at Washington State University, Vancouver, spends her days in a room full of vintage (and fully functional) computers dating back to 1977... She's not just interested in early, experimental e-books. Her laboratory collects everything from video games to Instagram zines.... Grigar's Electronic Literature Lab maintains 61 computers to showcase the hundreds of electronic works and thousands of files in the collection, which she keeps in pristine condition.
Grigar says they're still looking for a PC that reads five-and-a-quarter-inch floppy disks.
And a job listing for an IT systems administrator for Germany's railway service "were expected to have expertise with Windows 3.11 and MS-DOS — systems released 32 and 44 years ago, respectively. In certain parts of Germany, commuting depends on operating systems that are older than many passengers." It's not just German transit, either. The trains in San Francisco's Muni Metro light railway, for example, won't start up in the morning until someone sticks a floppy disk into the computer that loads DOS software on the railway's Automatic Train Control System (ATCS). Last year, the San Francisco Municipal Transit Authority (SFMTA) announced its plans to retire this system over the coming decade, but today the floppy disks live on.
Apple is "really aggressive about deprecating old products," M. Scott Ford, a software developer who specialises in updating legacy systems, tells the BBC. "But Microsoft took the approach of letting organisations leverage the hardware they already have and chasing them for software licenses instead. They also tend to have a really long window for supporting that software."
And so you get things like two enormous LightJet printers in San Diego powered by servers running Windows 2000, says photographic printer John Watts: Long out of production, the few remaining LightJets rely on the Windows operating systems that were around when these printers were sold. "A while back we looked into upgrading one of the computers to Windows Vista. By the time we added up the money it would take to buy new licenses for all the software it was going to cost $50,000 or $60,000 [£38,000 to £45,000]," Watts says. "I can't stand Windows machines," he says, "but I'm stuck with them...."
In some cases, however, old computers are a labour of love. In the US, Dene Grigar, director of the Electronic Literature Lab at Washington State University, Vancouver, spends her days in a room full of vintage (and fully functional) computers dating back to 1977... She's not just interested in early, experimental e-books. Her laboratory collects everything from video games to Instagram zines.... Grigar's Electronic Literature Lab maintains 61 computers to showcase the hundreds of electronic works and thousands of files in the collection, which she keeps in pristine condition.
Grigar says they're still looking for a PC that reads five-and-a-quarter-inch floppy disks.
Paging Adrian Black (Score:5, Interesting)
Grigar doesn't know about him?
Adrian's digital Workshop?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=... [youtube.com]
lab equipment (Score:5, Informative)
I work in a test lab. We have a number of pieces of old test equipment, that we use but not often and it does not make sense to replace, that run on XP. I think we finally eliminated the Windows 2000 ones. The manufacturers have no interest in writing new drivers or software, they want to sell you a new one. So, we keep them off the network and eBay spare parts ahead of time.
Re:lab equipment (Score:5, Insightful)
Example: Voyager spacecraft. (Score:1)
That thing is still running on some ancient system that is decades old. Last I heard there were no plans to replace it.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't know of anyone who offers an infinite warranty. We all die eventually. The problem with old Windows stuff is that you have to airgap it these days, which can limit the functionality. I know of several BMS (building automation systems) that require Win98 for the controller software. The BMS controllers themselves are not internet connected and the Win98-based configuration software doesn't need to be connected continuously so we built VMs for them that get spun up on modern hardware when needed. Fort
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Too many people still don't understand that, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Newer does not mean better.
That's certainly right, but only up to a point. When you're e.g. running a mainframe platform and losing the last people that still know it, and all the code running there, to retirement, and even the maker of that (non-IBM) platform obviously has less and less people who know how to keep that platform running, it's definitely time to move on. Unlike Elon / DOGE want to make you believe, no, it's not a 5 month job to migrate, even 5 years won't suffice to do it properly. It's not simply about knowing COBOL.
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I worked in a Failure Analysis lab for a major computer company. Some of our equipment used Windows XP and for a reason. If we were to upgrade our OS on some machines, the newer OS would be incompatible with the software that controlled some of our test equipment. The manufacturer of the equipment either wasn't around anymore or they didn't upgrade their application to the newer OS. Such was the case with our XRF and FTIR equipment. Same with our electron microscope.
Re:lab equipment (Score:4, Interesting)
I run a movie theatre.
My projector runs on Windows XP.
The cinema server (that reads the movie files and feeds the data to the projector and sound system) runs on some version of Linux; the previous cinema server I had up to a few years back ran on Fedora Core 5 but I can't really tell what version the current one runs on since it's all hidden behind a javascript frontend.
It's all just "magic boxes", locked down to the n-th degree so no even the service techs can deal with some of the internals because the movie companies are so paranoid about piracy.
Reason: closed source is expensive (Score:2, Insightful)
"Many ATMs still operate on legacy Windows systems, including Windows XP and even Windows NT," which launched in 1993, says Elvis Montiero, an ATM field technician based in Newark, New Jersey in the US. "The challenge with upgrading these machines lies in the high costs associated with hardware compatibility, regulatory compliance and the need to rewrite proprietary ATM software," he says.
Long out of production, the few remaining LightJets rely on the Windows operating systems that were around when these printers were sold. "A while back we looked into upgrading one of the computers to Windows Vista. By the time we added up the money it would take to buy new licenses for all the software it was going to cost $50,000 or $60,000 [£38,000 to £45,000]," Watts says. "I can't stand Windows machines," he says, "but I'm stuck with them."
Behold, the true costs of closed source software.
Re: (Score:3)
Even if it was running Linux, the ATM would still need proprietary software to do the actual ATM things and it would still need to have any updates approved through the regulatory process.
Re:Reason: closed source is expensive (Score:4, Informative)
Even if it was running Linux, the ATM would still need proprietary software to do the actual ATM things and it would still need to have any updates approved through the regulatory process.
If it's a POSIX program then it doesn't need any updates. At most, the libraries and possibly the kernel might need an update.
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I suspect the entire software stack running on the ATM is what needs certification by regulators.
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Linux is dropping kernel support for older hardware too. [theregister.com] This isn't a "cost of closed source."
It's two opposing forces: first that these systems don't NEED increased hardware power to do what they were designed to do, and second that building with off-the-shelf hardware means that hardware will eventually be out of production, though probably not as quickly as if you'd designed or bought a completely bespoke solution.
Ripping out the guts of the system AND rewriting the software for a newer OS is costly.
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There's a big difference when Linux mainline drops an old architecture: the old tarballs still support the old arch. So you still have cost effective options.
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Linux is dropping kernel support for older hardware too. [theregister.com] This isn't a "cost of closed source."
Any processor that was sold in the last 30 years will run Linux. Show me an ATM older than 30 years old and I'll show you a non-functional ATM.
Ripping out the guts of the system AND rewriting the software for a newer OS is costly.
Precisely why you should write software for POSIX, it'll still work in another 30 years.
Makes me feel better about my contribution (Score:1)
to my organization's technical debt.
VxWorks 5.something (vintage late 90s?) on a PPC single board computer on a VMEbus (late 80s?)...in the early 2010s and still chunkin' away...
Re: (Score:2)
Out of morbid curiosity, what happens when the smoke comes out and you can't get it back in? Do you already have a backup plan or .... I've seen a lot of duct tape and bubble over the years so nothing would surprise me.
Re: Makes me feel better about my contribution (Score:1)
Cabinet full of spares. Most parts still available in some form or another. Source code in git. Lots of VM'able disk images for the development environment.
This is (Score:2)
Just the cost of not maintaining your own infrastructure with incremental upgrades as various pieces become obsolete. No one (or business) is "stuck" using old hardware. They backed themselves into a corner and then complain about it as if they didn't do it to themselves.
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Disagree all you want. Your argument boils down to security through obscurity, which isn't a valid security policy.
Re:This is (Score:4, Insightful)
Disagree all you want. Your argument boils down to security through obscurity, which isn't a valid security policy.
The systems that I imagine he is referring to DO happen to have good (and modern) security. Better than just Unix, for example. The fact that there is an additional barrier to attack (having a clue) is another valid layer. Much of good security includes secrets. It's only a bad approach when (a) that's all there is and (b) that's not enough (it usually would not be enough).
An understandable example would be in the domain of physical (e.g. building and facility) security. Much of it comes from the secret internal procedures, like the guard schedules. Of course, you probably need actual locks on the doors, too!
Hiding the Christmas presents in a corner of the closet is quite effective against a certain class of attackers. Even though they are very curious attackers. It is the height of the shelf and lack of device for reaching, that is critical in protecting the asset (or even knowing it is up there). Later, you need to resort to the attic as the threat actors become more sophisticated... Obscurity is relative, and everything about security is about understanding the capabilities of the potential threats.
The main thing about security through obscurity is that once it isn't obscure one day, the Ho Ho Ho will be on you. The relative value of what these particular systems are typically protecting is high, and the highly motivated attackers have already incorporated the obscure material into their packages. Because of their investment, those packages are not widely available. The obscurity factor makes the development of those attacks expensive enough that the field of actors is much smaller than for most systems. (But as with anything "secret", this is a fragile situation.)
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Obscurity is just one layer of a multi-layer strategy.
Which save is more attackable?
1). The safe full of guns that is proudly displayed in the living room, because, hey, the safe itself is beautiful.
2). The safe full of guns that is in the basement, behind a plain gray metal security door with two deadbolts, hidden behind a piece of ugly looking plywood?
Thank Admiral Grace Hopper (Score:2)
COBOL is still used all over the place on somewhat newer hardware.
Admiral Grace Hopper made a major effort to verify vendor compilers on standard Cobol and to verify government code was sticking to the standard and not using vendor extensions. This ensured easy migration of the code from one generation of computer to the next, from one vendor to the next.
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It's easy to spend someone else's time and money.
I've dealt with some small businesses with obsolete hardware/software/OS. They don't have an IT department, often it's one non-IT person doing extra duty. (And yes, things get messy when they leave/transfer). There's no one to handle the upgrade, because everyone's time is 100% committed.
Sometimes they -can't- upgrade easily. The software doesn't run on the latest OS. Licensing costs or hardware requirements have changed. Retraining staff will take the busine
I was told not upgrading was a security risk (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3)
They are taking a calculated risk. One can debate the wisdom of that choice, but I personally would be more worried about touchless card readers, which are mostly the recent retrofits, than about modems, similar outbound-only connections, or their old OSes. The usage model of an ATM is very different from a personal computer, and the threat surface is correspondingly different.
Re: (Score:3)
how is banking reliant on abandonware then?
They can mitigate the risk by putting those machines on their own networks and firewalling them down to the bare minimum needed for operation. If you did that, you would still be leaving so much open that you'd still be at risk (because you expect to do more than just process ATM transactions.)
Re: (Score:2)
how is banking reliant on abandonware then?
They can mitigate the risk by putting those machines on their own networks and firewalling them down to the bare minimum needed for operation. If you did that, you would still be leaving so much open that you'd still be at risk (because you expect to do more than just process ATM transactions.)
Don't forget about the peripheral interfaces on the devices (in the worst case, external USB slots and serial interfaces). Sometimes those are ignored and the plan is to rely on physical security. Like with voting machines.
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I worked on a space telescope once. The operating system they use is from the 70s. I asked my boss why they used such an ancient system and he said "House calls for satellites aren't an option. Reliability trumps performance or modernity. It has a proven track record of reliability."
Re: (Score:2)
Notes (Score:5, Insightful)
1. The people in question are not stuck. They live happily.
2. Those systems work like clockwork. They don't usually need replacing.
Re:Notes (Score:5, Interesting)
1. The people in question are not stuck. They live happily. 2. Those systems work like clockwork. They don't usually need replacing.
This one get it.
Business is not generally in the Replace everything to get nothing more than we already have mode.
IT guy goes to see the accountants...
"We need to replace all our computers for a cost of A million dollars." CAO "Oh goodness, did something happen?"
IT - Oh no, there are just new models coming out."
CAO - "But did the old ones quit working? What are we getting for that million dollars?"
IT - "Well ,they'll just do the same thing we've been doing for a couple decades now - then again, we're going to need about 200 K to rewrite some software that won't run on the new ones."
CAO - So we're actually going to spend a million to get less functionality, and have to rewrite functioning software to get it to function on the new computer system? That's a really hard sell!"
IT - "Well, when you put it that way."
A lot of business savvy people still aren't used to the perpetual upgrade, nothing added cycle. It might seem like a black hole you throw money into.
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Re:Notes (Score:4, Insightful)
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Somebody needs to share this idea with Elon Musk before he turns his IRS release into a giant hack-a-thon.
OMG I didn't know they were trying to migrate to SGI computers!
Wait, what?
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Every time I get the urge to upgrade my pc I ask myself, "Does it run everything you need to and reasonably well?" Yup.
Re: (Score:1)
Yup. Which is why until this year, my laptop was from 2012.
Even then, the only reason why I upgraded it is because I moved from a 13" display to a 16" display. I didn't need the increased power, memory, etc. Even the no longer supported OS was fine with me.
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1. The people in question are not stuck. They live happily.
2. Those systems work like clockwork. They don't usually need replacing.
I think it's the hardware problem that usually gets them. But it is amazing the lengths they will go to before upgrading. Even before trying software emulation of ancient hardware. Like manufacturing your own vacuum tubes.
Floppy emulators (Score:3)
The trains in San Francisco's Muni Metro light railway, for example, won't start up in the morning until someone sticks a floppy disk into the computer that loads DOS software on the railway's Automatic Train Control System (ATCS).
I bet they could replace that with a floppy emulator, that'd load disk images from a flash drive instead.
Re: (Score:2)
$19 https://www.insight.com/en_US/... [insight.com]
$30 https://www.amazon.com/GoTEK-S... [amazon.com]
$35 https://www.amazon.com/Emulato... [amazon.com]
Many others: https://www.shopfloorautomatio... [shopfloorautomations.com]
Seriously spending $200M+ because you're stuck on floppies when a $18-$35 device will make those floppies obsolete in 10 seconds is absurd.
I know, the naysayers and downvoters are saying "OH, but you ALSO need a USB stick!" You can get 100x for $106 at
https://www.amazon.com/Wholesa... [amazon.com]
So multiply how many floppy readers you have by $20 and that's yourr
Re: (Score:2)
That first one at least, USB floppy drives? Are absolute DOGHSIT for quality. I would NOT want any production system relying on them. Hell, not even my home systems as a hobby. I purchased one a while back, and the "drive CD" was actually shipped and stuck inside the floppy drive, requiring me to open up the drive just to get the CD out. But besides this, this reading/writing reliability of the head was absolute trash. "Oh, maybe USB isn't powerful enough" - well, turns out it actually is! I built a greasew
Re:Floppy emulators (Score:4, Insightful)
What you say is 100% correct. Now with that out of the way, do you feel comfortable with your signature on the document saying the emulators won’t crash any trains? Liability is what this comes down to.
Re: (Score:3)
What you say is 100% correct. Now with that out of the way, do you feel comfortable with your signature on the document saying the emulators won’t crash any trains? Liability is what this comes down to.
Who says the hardware from their running from the 90s even has USB ports? I'd encountered them previously on a Sun, but I'd never seen the ports previously nor anything that could connect to them. They weren't very common until the late 90s. If I recall right, Mac started the trend in the consumer world with the iMac. It beat Windows to a degree of widespread availability and it wasn't until when Windows 98 came out that you started to generally see USB ports on the hardware and USB devices. I don't know if
Re: (Score:3)
Look at the Gotek emulator. It acts like a floppy drive to the host system and stores floppy images on sd or usb drives. It connects through a typical ribbon cable.
Re: (Score:1)
...do you feel comfortable with your signature on the document saying the emulators won’t crash any trains? Liability is what this comes down to.
Who says the hardware from their running from the 90s even has USB ports?
Grandparent: The floppies are used to boot the system. They don't run the trains.
Parent: Previous response to your post explains you obviously didn't follow the links or understand what the emulator does. It takes a floppy-disk-drive cable input and puts the data via a USB port it has in it on a USB stick.
The Chinaman is not the issue here, dude. (Score:1)
The issue is not the floppy drive. The issue is, the system as a whole cannot get spare parts anymore. Additionally, the system cannot commnicate outside the subway (i.e., there is no automatic control on street-level metro lines) because it relies on loop cable signal wires and the bandwidth is limited.
This is all stuff you could have learned in 10 seconds by typing "San Francisco's Muni atcs upgrade" into google and reading the first link. But I guess barfing out an uninformed opinion is just as good.
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San Francisco resident here. As far as I can tell from all the various things I've read, the news surrounding this issue is badly reported based on interviews with uninformed and technically un-savvy public spokespeople.
I mean, some of the stories talk about needing to find programmers proficient in "90s-era programming languages." Which ones might those be? I'm unaware of languages that were widely used in 1998 and are completely obsolete today. I'm betting the real challenge is finding programmers profici
Re: Floppy emulators (Score:2)
Prism Newspaper Labeler (Score:3, Interesting)
We have an old Newspaper Laber called Prism. REQUIRES Windows XP SP2 due to 3 very old Propriety SCSI, and Serial cards to make it work. I'm looking for motherboards to replace the one we have before it dies. New hardware is upwards of $500,000 USD to replace it. Needs to have 3 PCI (1) slots. We can't get drivers for them either. Nobody makes them and the Manufacturer removed them.
I keep old hardware around to read old files. Have an old laptop that rents out for $500/day to local operations for their CNC machines. They need it maybe once every 5-6 years, for a single day. It has paid for it's old circa 2000 price 4 times over, and my time, since I started doing that. The business are VERY HAPPY to have it even for a day to upload new plans instead of having to purchase a new multi-million USD device to replace it instead.
THAT is the cost of closed source hardware.
Az
Sample size for Apple is much smaller (Score:2)
Is Apple hardware or software used much to run other equipment compared to Windows and *ix? It is probably a tiny fraction. It is much easier for Apple to deprecate their systems when the majority of their systems are used as desktop computers. Sure maybe there is some occasional older software with compatibility issues but the domain of issues is much smaller since they are pretty much only in the desktop space.
Re: (Score:3)
Yes, this story is about old Windows because old other operating systems were scarcely used for anything by comparison because they were scarcely used by comparison in general... except DOS of course.
Most of us know of a few examples of other kinds of systems being used for special purposes, often Amigas because they had cheap genlock capability. The Prevue Guide is the obvious example. But as many of those systems as they were, they were nonexistent compared to CNC machines with only DOS drivers.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes it is and I should have made it clear I was commenting about the "Apple is ""really aggressive about deprecating old products," " part. There are reasons most companies chose x86, Windows, DOS, and *ix over Apple.
Seems typical (Score:2)
It's inevitable but not until it actually happens (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
A stitch in time saves nine.
Wait, what? (Score:2)
Why would you do that? And not just in a picking-on-Vista-for-sucking way, in general: Win2k is very out of support, Vista is very out of support; so either way you are going to need to have the whole setup dedicated to keeping those systems away from potential trouble. There are some incremental improvements(vista would mean being able to ditch SMBv1 and p
Re: Wait, what? (Score:3)
Lots of systems can only be upgraded one major release at a time. In cases like this jumping 3-4 major versions at once isn't an upgrade, it's a rebuild. They're likely comparing the two options.
The thing is... (Score:2)
The thing is, particularly for a large organisation, replacing an old system is very expensive, and as a "maintenance" task doesn't have a very appealing business case (when up against revenue generating projects that compete for funding). During that period in the year, when the budgets for the following year are set, and people start to cut items from their wish list to fit into the ever tightening budget, those sorts of maintenance projects inevitably drop off the slate.
You might have a old Windows syste
Tech-bro marketing today would make Bernays blush (Score:1)
My latest acquisition? A 10 year-old quad core burner laptop, for free (to me - folks have a funny concept what e-waste is, these days), and for $50 for Crucial hardware it's been updated with RAM and SSD storage good enough to do anything that I need to do with it (I can even open up multiple tabs in Chrome if I both
Re: (Score:1)
AI and LLMs, et al - If I need it I can pay less than what the latest iPhone ** Max goes for and get stuff done, or do it in
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Microsoft or the app companies (Score:2)
Who's to blame for the these geriatric systems? My guess is that it's not Microsoft but rather the companies that make these systems. They choose stability rather than progress or efficiency, very much in the same way that space systems avoid new hardware and software and instead prefer hardware and software that has both been certified and shown to be stable via long use. These systems tend to be financial systems, safety critical systems, or non-maintainable systems (like spacecraft).
Iffin it aint broke (Score:2)
None of this stuff is bad (Score:2)
None of this stuff is bad, let alone "ancient" in any real sense of the term. It tends to be simple, fast, stable, and maintainable. DOS 3.3 is positively modern compared to some of the rock solid mainframe stuff written in languages like FORTRAN and COBOL in the 1960s. By comparison Windows has been going downhill for almost two decades now. Windows 7 was the high point of the Windows line and every version since then has been worse overall, sometimes much worse. The only problem with Windows 7 is Micr
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To my understanding, Windows XP/Server 2003 were the last versions of Windows that implemented the BSD network stack into Windows. From Vista on, Microsoft made their own networking stack, as the BSD one didn't comply with Microsoft's vision on how to implement a network stack into an OS. Maybe they thought they could do better, perhaps the ideas from MS about the subject were overreaching, most likely both.
The network stack in Vista/Win7/Server 2008 wasn't too radically different from the BSD one. With Win
ancient Windows? (Score:2)
I am pretty most of the embedded systems I use -- like bank ATMs -- are running MS-DOS. Even as we speak. (My old girlfriend used to program them.)
I myself did some embedded programming for credit card auth terminals (also cashier's check dispensing machines) for the major company that provides those to merchants. It was in Z80 assembler and some C on a home-grown just-barely-an operating system we wrote. That was less than 25 years ago. (Merchant credit card terminals were not yet on the network in the ear
If its not broke, don't fix it (Score:2)