Apple Warns Australia Against Joining EU In Mandating iPhone App Sideloading (neowin.net) 84
Apple has urged Australia not to follow the European Union in mandating iPhone app sideloading, warning that such policies pose serious privacy and security risks. "This communication comes as the Australian federal government considers new rules that could force Apple to open up its iOS ecosystem, much like what happened in Europe with recent legislation," notes Neowin. Apple claims that allowing alternative app stores has led to increased exposure to malware, scams, and harmful content. From the report: Apple, in its response to this Australian paper (PDF), stated that Australia should not use the EU's Digital Markets Act "as a blueprint". The company's core argument is that the changes mandated by the EU's DMA, which came into full effect in March 2024, introduce serious security and privacy risks for users. Apple claims that allowing sideloading and alternative app stores effectively opens the door for malware, fraud, scams, and other harmful content. The tech company also highlighted specific concerns from its European experience, alleging that its compliance there has led to users being able to install pornography apps and apps that facilitate copyright infringement, things its curated App Store aims to prevent. Apple maintains that its current review process is vital for user protection, and that its often criticized 30% commission applies mainly to the highest earning apps, with most developers paying a lower 15% rate or nothing.
Trust us. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: Trust us. (Score:2)
Also known as greed.
"It's not about the money" (Score:2)
Sales of iPhones and Apple store based phone apps....
Re: Trust us. (Score:1)
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But why is it Apple's job (or concern) to prevent other people from scams?
Because once their iPhones are infested with sideloaded malware, customers call Apple tech support and bring it to the "Genius Bar" at the Apple Store, and blame Apple for the problems.
Apple incurs costs and a hit to its image.
Apple can't just say, "You were stupid and now you've voided your warranty," because EU law doesn't let them say that.
Re: Trust us. (Score:1)
We haven't seen this scenario with android smartphones.
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We haven't seen this scenario with android smartphones.
Who actually supports Android OS? Who ya gonna call?
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We haven't seen this scenario with android smartphones.
No one supports Android phones the way Apple supports iPhones.
There is no "Genius Bar".
You're on your own. Got a problem with malware? Factory reset, or buy a new phone.
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Because once their iPhones are infested with sideloaded malware, customers call Apple tech support and bring it to the "Genius Bar" at the Apple Store, and blame Apple for the problems.
Apple incurs costs and a hit to its image.
Apple can't just say, "You were stupid and now you've voided your warranty," because EU law doesn't let them say that.
So what do they do with macos in that case?
Besides, I think you missed apple's biggest worry from TFS:
alleging that its compliance there has led to users being able to install pornography apps and apps that facilitate copyright infringement
The horror.
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It's software. Apple can just offer to help them reset their phones to get the malware off. Apple doesn't have to do any more than that under their warranty obligations. They're not going to lose millions of dollars because of idiots who have that happen to them.
At some point you have to make users responsible for their own actions. Apple can put warnings and confirmation dialogs up on the toggle that allows sideloading and force the user to confirm that they're opening their phone up to possible danger. If
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Apple can't just say, "You were stupid and now you've voided your warranty," because EU law doesn't let them say that.
European law does let them say that.
And if it is true: they have nothing to do for the customer.
And that is likely easy to prove with system logs.
Here: you installed MalWareApp-1.app at "insert date", and that one down loaded ... ... ...
1)
2)
3)
[ and so on ]
We can factory reset it for you, if you can not do it yourself. And that is it.
Re: Trust us. (Score:4, Insightful)
> Because once their iPhones are infested with sideloaded malware, customers call Apple tech support and bring it to the "Genius Bar" at the Apple Store, and blame Apple for the problems.
This is literally something you've made up as some ridiculous prediction for a future that hasn't happened and it's clearly absurd.
Let's deal with the zoomed in view first:
- Do people blame Apple when their Macs have malware?
- Do ordinary people even blame Microsoft when Windows PCs have malware? Techies get mad at Microsoft for not making it more secure, sure, but I've never heard of ordinary Windows users avoiding Windows because of malware. Most ultimately blame themselves for being fooled in the first place, and if they don't blame themselves they blame whoever tricked them, as they should.
Now zoom out, because this is getting even more absurd:
- In what world does "Sideloading=Malware"? How much malware under Android is sideloaded? Any at all?
- Are you speculating that Apple allowing sideloading is going to mean Apple just lets applications install themselves without warnings or user input? Have you seen some mandate that implies Apple will legally be forced to do that? Or are you convinced that this is the only way Apple will set up sideloading - some bizarre system that has no precedent outside of long obsolete 1980s operating systems like the original MacOS where downloading an application (that is, merely having the unarchived version on your hard drive) also installs it?
- Are you unfamiliar with the concept of "sandboxing"? Do you think it's somehow harder to sandbox apps than it is legacy applications under more conventional older operating systems? Are you aware that sandboxing is actually where much of OS development is heading anyway to deal exactly with this kind of issue [wikipedia.org]? Are you aware Android has sandboxed apps from the start and is continually improving its sandboxing model - and virtually every problem with it was something everyone knows about that Google dragged its feel about, rather than something unfixable that Apple cannot make mandatory from day #1?
Now zoom out even further, because this weird bizarre scenario gets even more ridiculous the more you take a wide view of things:
- Why would THIS be the vector to install malware on iPhones? People physically installing it? Because when people get malware on their PCs nine times out of ten, despite my comment about about only Techies blaming Microsoft, it's because of security holes in the underlying OS. People don't, as a rule, just click on random .MSIs, and then sit through an installation process. Sure, you can make sure your infected acrobat reader copy is at ad0be.xyz reaches the top of the search engines due to some ingenious SEO, but the truth is the easier and more prominent your malware is, the more likely you are to be caught.
- Or to put it another way: Why do you think iOS gets "security updates"? You think it's because iOS has no security holes?
The whole "I need Daddy Apple to spank me when I install something they don't like" BS is pathetic Daddy-statism. It's your phone, you, not Apple, get the final say in what runs on it. If you want Apple to help, continue just installing stuff only from the App Store. It's fine to ask Apple for help, it's quite another to demand everyone be ruled by Apple's whims. Especially as, so far, they've proven to be abusive with the power they have.
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But why is it Apple's job (or concern) to prevent other people from scams?
Because that's what Apple users want.
For most iPhone customers, the walled garden is a feature. They want Apple to control it. They want it to be safe. They want ONE app to perform a function. They do not want to choose among several apps that do the same thing in different ways with different features. They want that one app to be Apple approved, and preferably made by Apple. They want it to be simple to do the thing their friend does: "get the app from the app-store, click there and type this, and..
Re: Trust us. (Score:3)
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Apple isn't just saying that users need to be protected. They are saying that *they* (Apple) are the only ones who can protect them. They are claiming that other would-be app store vendors can't do it as well as Apple.
If other App Stores are allowed on Apple devices, I'm sure there will be some unscrupulous ones. But this is why stores, both physical and digital, build a brand and stake their reputation on it. If you buy a Rolex from some guy on a street corner, you're going to get screwed. But if you buy i
Re:Trust us. (Score:5, Insightful)
For some reason, they think they're all suckers for a scam.
They get people to pay $200 for an additional 8 GB of RAM in their laptops.
Seems they already have verified their users will fall for a scam.
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Thanks for spelling out the already implied joke.
Re: Trust us. (Score:2)
I know you're joking that they've already been scammed once (by apple) but apple is not wrong here to say that people are incredibly stupid and liable to get tricked into side loading malware.
I don't think that's enough to override the fundamental right to use the hardware you purchased any way you please, but regardless, they are correct.
Re: Trust us. (Score:2)
Re: Trust us. (Score:4, Insightful)
> apple is not wrong here to say that people are incredibly stupid and liable to get tricked into side loading malware.
Yes, yes they are. They're lying. If that were the case, Android users would constantly be sideloading malware.
You know what kind of app gets described as malware by most Android users? The stuff that's pre-installed by a manufacturer. Android users virtually never install malware. It's just not a problem. (It's incredibly difficult to create effective malware for Android anyway unless you're the manufacturer as apps are generally sandboxed. You need root access to actually do damage.)
Apple just wants to get their 30%. That's the reason for banning side loading and always has been.
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> apple is not wrong here to say that people are incredibly stupid and liable to get tricked into side loading malware.
Yes, yes they are. They're lying. If that were the case, Android users would constantly be sideloading malware.
You know what kind of app gets described as malware by most Android users? The stuff that's pre-installed by a manufacturer. Android users virtually never install malware. It's just not a problem. (It's incredibly difficult to create effective malware for Android anyway unless you're the manufacturer as apps are generally sandboxed. You need root access to actually do damage.)
Apple just wants to get their 30%. That's the reason for banning side loading and always has been.
The thing is, most Android users wouldn't know dick about sideloading.
I've only ever done it once and that was just for testing. However it's good to know that it is an option and I'm not dependent on the mercy of a huge technology corporation.
Re: Trust us. (Score:1)
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So you know nothing about Android. Android gives users a true choice, they can leave a setting at its default and only get apps from "the protected garden" of Google's Play Store, or they can choose to flip a switch which enables installing apps from elsewhere. User's choice.
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Forcing Apple to open up removes one of the choices.
I don't see how: Apple is not being required to force users to sideload, Apple is being required to give users the option to sideload if the user wishes so.
Users which want to remain in the "walled garden" would still have that option, whereas users which want to try third-party software sources would have the choice to do so without having to completely switch to a different platform.
They forgot.. (Score:5, Insightful)
..to warn Australians that it would impact Apples profits.
Re:They forgot.. (Score:4, Funny)
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"Dats a real nice... well, nice-ish country youse got dere. Be a shame if we wuz to stop selling iPhones dere and told people it was $politician-name's fault...".
Your Move Australia, I'm reloading the shotgun and I've still got one foot left.
Trying to punish users will just result in them buying the competition.
Wow (Score:3)
compliance there has led to users being able to install pornography apps
That's horrific. Imagine if people had access to pornography on their phone. The societal implications could be tremendenous!
Re: Wow (Score:2)
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That's horrific. Imagine if people had access to pornography on their phone.
Yes, it might drive demand for larger and larger [imgur.com] screened phones, just like what made the iPhone, and all the profits Apple made from it, possible.
Re:Executive Order (Score:5, Insightful)
Good luck with that shit however. One thing thats been *very* clear in polling is that voters will not tolerate governments selling out to the americans for stupid shit like this. We just had the LNP absolutely thrashed by Labotr for boasting that it would do trumpy shit like DOGE and would "work very closely" with the US. Most of the country actually wants us to pull out of AUKUS so we dont blow our entire budget on a handful of submarines we wont see for another 30 years.
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Well, duh, submarines aren't supposed to be seen. That's their whole point.
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As an Aussie I would actually be in favor of this. We can (and should) find other buyers for our exports and we would be better off if the yanks got stuffed and stopped being military partners with Australia (there is no reason for China to attack us if we don't attack them and don't help the yanks attack them)
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there is no reason for China to attack us if we don't attack them and don't help the yanks attack them
There is no *good* reason for China to attack you.
Unfortunately territorial expansionism is rarely rational, so expecting rationality out of an irrational administration is unwise. The question is not "do they have a reason to attack", but "are they likely to become expansionist" followed by "are you in range".
Re: Executive Order (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, talking about irrational administrations and "are they likely to become expansionist" followed by "are you in range", I can only think of...
China! Of course, the damn Chinese! What other country would anyone think of? /s
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I was careful with my wording to make it nonspecific about who I was referring to. I think it applies widely.
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I heard Trump issued an executive order mandating that all countries holding US companies accountable to follow their laws will get a 100% tariff raise and will be excluded from any military support.
Yeah this will be good. Imagine having a policy that allows foreign nation to directly impose a sales tax on US residents. Australia gets a better product *and* the US can pay for it.
This is truly a genius move by Trump. We criticised him heavily that you can't do something and make another country pay for it in his first term with his silly wall, but it looks like he's finally figured out how to do it. ... except the policy was backwards, but babysteps for Mr 5D Chess.
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I suspect the EO you're referring to was the one about social media where laws preventing social media companies from promoting posts that promote violence, for example, will result in people from those countries being punished if they visit the US. (https://yro.slashdot.org/story/25/05/28/201215/us-will-ban-foreign-officials-to-punish-countries-for-social-media-rules)
It's not so generic as to punish any action against a US company that holds them accountable, but it is still absurd.
As an aside, your commen
all through the store but you pay tax's ? (Score:2, Insightful)
ok how about you stop optimizing your tax
keep your monopoly but you pay Tax and no more charging Apple AU variable rates to use your "brand" to avoid tax's etc
and you actually host rather than cache things in australia rather than sending all the locations and imessages of politicians and ADF to the USA
much love
Australia
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Oh dear (Score:1)
Ahahahaha ... Nice try, Apple. (Score:5, Insightful)
Anybody paying attention holds up the new iPhone with USB C port as a prime example of why regulations can be a good thing. I trust it will be hard to convince the Australian public otherwise.
Now how about not spamming me with Apple Music Ads when I press the play button on my obscenely expensive "premium grade" laptop?
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Grok -
Whether Australia’s $300+ billion investment in nuclear submarines is a “waste” is subjective and premature to judge definitively. The program addresses legitimate security concerns and promises economic benefits, but its massive cost, long timeline, technological risks, and unresolved nuclear waste issues fuel skepticism. Critics argue the funds could be better spent elsewhere, while supporters see it as essential for national security. The outcome hinges on execution, geopolitical
Just ban them altogether (Score:1)
We are an island nation. Stop Apple at the border.
Problem solved.
PSA (Score:1)
The other 40% are doing just fine (Score:5, Insightful)
If this were a problem you'd see it in the 40% of the market in Australia who are on Android. You don't see the problem because Apple is making it up.
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...If this were a problem you'd see it in the 40% of the market in Australia who are on Android...
I am now advised by inference, that Australia is [technically] an iOS shop, with the close to 60% share.
I agree with you though, that to put it another way, Apple think we're fools and have no brains!
Re: The other 40% are doing just fine (Score:1, Troll)
Re: The other 40% are doing just fine (Score:1)
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The more the ecosystem opens up, the easier it is for them to accomplish their goals, regardless of how smart you think you are.
40% of the market has a completely open ecosystem with no restrictions on side loading what so ever, and they are doing just fine.
Just this week news dropped of big tech actively exploiting an Android issue to track you 'smart users' outside the 'safe sandbox' it provides.
Hint: A poor argument is built around whataboutism. But a really shitty argument is off topic. Tracking pixels and breaking out of sandboxes has nothing to do with sideloading, and in fact the effort that people go hacking around restrictions in the OS despite sideloading existing not only makes your off topic argument shitty, but it actually works against you since you're postul
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40% of the market has a completely open ecosystem with no restrictions on side loading what so ever, and they are doing just fine.
Technical.
But most people do not even know what side loading is.
And installing an app by simply downloading it: is not "that" easy or intuitive.
In other words: most people never heard about it.
They have two app stores, and that is it. I have 3 as I have FDroid, and as I have Android Studio, I have a 4th option, and I know how to download something (which is tricky, as the fucking
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And yet they're failing.
Virtually everything that's described as "malware" by Android users - unwanted apps that violate privacy - was installed by the manufacturer. Play Store and side loaded apps are sandboxed unless you root the device. Nobody is mandating rooting.
If you think sideloading apps enables malware, you must have a pretty low opinion of Apple's quality standards for its own OS.
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I am now advised by inference, that Australia is [technically] an iOS shop, with the close to 60% share.
Yeah Australia aligns well in spending and philosophy with America. High market share for Apple, big fat cars, shitty city design with poor public transport causing endless traffic jams. 2 party governments hell bent on back stabbing each other.
Outside of North America and Australia, iOS has a far smaller market share. About the 20-40% in western nations depending on country, and lower than that in Asia.
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Australia does not have a "2 party system".
It has a system like for example Germany: https://peo.gov.au/understand-... [peo.gov.au]
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Australia does not have a "2 party system".
It has a system like for example Germany: https://peo.gov.au/understand-... [peo.gov.au]
FFS You've so often wrong about your own country how about you get that right first before you talk about mine. Australia has had a 2 party system since 1943 when the United party dissolved and folded into the Liberal Party. But I'll excuse you for thinking otherwise, you probably did a quick google and saw three major parties being in government since the war without realising the Liberals and Nationals are the same ballot.
Since 1943 there has been two parties in power. The Australian Labor Party, or the L
Barking up the wrong tree. (Score:2)
The EU is attacking the wrong target.
Side loading does indeed circumvented their review process which I personally believe is a good thing and should be kept for all apps.
The real problem is commission charges by Apple. Sideloading is just an answer to their fees, and not a good one.
We should be fighting the monopoly, not security.
An immune system analogy (Score:2)
Apple claims that allowing sideloading and alternative app stores effectively opens the door for malware, fraud, scams, and other harmful content.
And allowing your kids to play in the dirt may cause them to develop certain infections. These can be dangerous, but they're also useful in training immune systems and reducing future vulnerability. Not to mention that kind of "free range" upbringing promotes awareness, responsibility, and self-sufficiency.
I'd feel differently about Apple's walled garden if there were a half-dozen or more smartphone ecosystems. Then, if one or two were severely locked down I wouldn't care. But right now we effectively have
My first iphone will be my last iPhone (Score:2)
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I think the main result would be:
that they finally think about real security. What we have at the moment is security by obscurity.
It can simply not be that my 15 year old Mac is secure, and can only get infected when I install malware myself, or open a hacked PDF file (or insert file format) with an Application that has a known bug.
And on the other hand, iOS installs every damn App completely isolated with its own user (and group?) and should not be able at all to break out of that isolation, and attack the
Captive market is going to capture. (Score:2)
We also know the big software players(Adobe, for example) would never give Apple 30%. The app store a bullshit captive market solely to benefit Apple.
This is a crocodile warning you about alligators (Score:2)
"Apple has urged Australia not to follow the European Union in mandating iPhone app sideloading, warning that such policies pose serious privacy and security risks."
Of course, we're supposed to forget how Apple has whored itself to totalitarian governments, selling users out in return for child labour and market access.
Be a good little boy. (Score:2)
The tech company also highlighted specific concerns from its European experience, alleging that its compliance there has led to users being able to install pornography apps and apps that facilitate copyright infringement, things its curated App Store aims to prevent.
Good Apple users don't do these nasty things.
Personally, I already have a mom thanks..
Nah (Score:1)
Of course Apple would do that. (Score:1)
Are we to expect anything else from them?
They hate any possibility of not having total control over their users, much akin to certain governments...
"Hey Apple, how many of those "exploits"... (Score:2)
...you keep fixing were just to get around people jailbreaking their iPhones? You know about "jailbreaking", right? The thing the courts ruled were perfectly legal for the consumers to do with their own property. Yet insist on ignoring the rulings."