Ford Plows Ahead On EV Battery Factory Amid Political Storm (axios.com) 167
Ford is moving forward with its $3 billion EV battery plant in Michigan despite political pushback and the potential loss of key U.S. tax credits that make the project financially viable. Axios reports: Ford's argument is that by building batteries using technology licensed from China's leading battery producer, CATL, it is helping to re-shore important manufacturing expertise that was long ago ceded to China. [...] "LFP batteries are produced all around Europe, and the rest of the world," said Lisa Drake, Ford's vice president of technology platform programs and EV systems. "How can we compete if we don't have this technology? Somebody has to take the lead to do this," she said, adding that it will lead to homegrown innovation and the seeding of a domestic supply base. "I'm convinced this is the right thing to do for the United States," she said.
Drake said the tax subsidies are even more important in the face of slower-than-expected EV demand. "When EV adoption slowed, it just became a huge headwind," she said. "The [production tax credit] allows us to keep on this path, and to keep going." "We don't want to back off on scaling, hiring or training in an industry we need to be competitive in the future," she said. "It would be a shame to build these facilities and then have to scale back on the most important part of it, which is the people. These are 1,700 jobs. They don't come along very often."
Consumer tax credits for EV purchases get the most attention, but for manufacturers, the far more lucrative incentives come in the form of production tax credits. Companies could receive a tax credit of $35 per kilowatt-hour for each U.S.-made cell, and another $10 per kilowatt-hour for each battery pack. With an annual production capacity of 20 GWh, Ford's battery plant could potentially receive a $900 million tax credit, offsetting almost one-third of its investment. [...] The Republican-controlled Senate could vote as early as Wednesday on a budget bill that would rewrite language around EV tax credits. A House version of the bill passed last month effectively killed the production tax credits for manufacturers by severely tightening the eligibility requirements. It also specifically prohibited credits for batteries made in the U.S. under a Chinese licensing agreement -- a direct hit on Ford.
Drake said the tax subsidies are even more important in the face of slower-than-expected EV demand. "When EV adoption slowed, it just became a huge headwind," she said. "The [production tax credit] allows us to keep on this path, and to keep going." "We don't want to back off on scaling, hiring or training in an industry we need to be competitive in the future," she said. "It would be a shame to build these facilities and then have to scale back on the most important part of it, which is the people. These are 1,700 jobs. They don't come along very often."
Consumer tax credits for EV purchases get the most attention, but for manufacturers, the far more lucrative incentives come in the form of production tax credits. Companies could receive a tax credit of $35 per kilowatt-hour for each U.S.-made cell, and another $10 per kilowatt-hour for each battery pack. With an annual production capacity of 20 GWh, Ford's battery plant could potentially receive a $900 million tax credit, offsetting almost one-third of its investment. [...] The Republican-controlled Senate could vote as early as Wednesday on a budget bill that would rewrite language around EV tax credits. A House version of the bill passed last month effectively killed the production tax credits for manufacturers by severely tightening the eligibility requirements. It also specifically prohibited credits for batteries made in the U.S. under a Chinese licensing agreement -- a direct hit on Ford.
LFP for dummies (Score:5, Informative)
For those who aren't familiar with LFP batteries, traditional lithium batteries (such as nickel-manganese-cobalt, or NMC) have good energy density and last a long time if you pamper them, but have this problem where they burst into flames if you puncture them. And the metals in them are very expensive.
LFP is lithium-iron-phosphate. They have less energy density (CATL's LFP have 205 Wh/kg compared to 260 Wh/kg or even over 300 Wh/kg in some NMC battery cells). However, LFP are much safer and less likely to explode if they're punctured. LFP also contains no nickel or cobalt, which is a huge advantage. LFP also has better longevity, supporting 3000 to 10,000 cycles vs 1000 to 2300 cycles for NMC.
So LFP is not the highest performance battery cell, but it has a lot of advantages (safety, cost, longevity) that make it a winning product. You're already seeing them in "solar generator" products (basically a fancy UPS box, e.g. the EcoFlow product line) and my understanding is that Tesla's Standard Range Model 3 vehicle has used LFP cells for a while. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw LFP replace most usages of lead acid batteries in the near future since the cell voltage is 3.2V nominal, and you can stack 4 cells to get a 12.8V battery, which would be a drop-in replacement for most lead acid applications.
Re:LFP for dummies (Score:4, Funny)
They have to call those things "solar generators" with an American flag printed on the side otherwise people will think it's woke and gay.
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"Freedom generators"
We could start calling electricity "Freedom fuel".
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Yes, but on the plus side they get to increase the price because it's got the American flag on it.
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Actually, I think that became a thing due to Amazon search manipulation by third party sellers, so when you search for "generator" all those damn power banks pollute the results.
The smaller, cheaper ones are kind of neat (for keeping portable electronics charged and running some lights during an outage), but the value proposition goes right out the window when they start getting into the price range where you could buy a quality ICE inverter generator for the same cash.
I totally get that some people use the
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Generators are key to storm preparedness. I didn't own a generator at first as the power outages I had seen after moving into my house were short, but also annoyingly frequent. My guess is a lot of overhead power lines and tree branches shorting them out. My solution was a couple inverters, SLA batteries, a portable power pack of sorts with various useful devices attached, and a couple secondhand computer UPSes. It worked well enough that I considered the problem solved at the time.
Then we had a big win
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I wouldn't be surprised if we saw LFP replace most usages of lead acid batteries in the near future since the cell voltage is 3.2V nominal, and you can stack 4 cells to get a 12.8V battery, which would be a drop-in replacement for most lead acid applications.
This isn't true for multiple reasons. First and most importantly, full charge on a 4-cell LFP is 3.6 volts. That means full charge on a nominal 12V LFP is 14.4V. Charging voltage is therefore 14.6V or 14.8V and the details are handled by the BMS. Maximum charging current is also far higher than a six-cell flooded battery, which is fully charged at 12.6V, and where maximum safe charging voltage is about 2V over the current battery voltage. (Yes, some chargers do significantly more voltage — this is bad
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The voltage out of an automotive alternator can easily get to 15 volts. As I recall a typical range will be something like 14.2 to 14.4 volts but apparently heavy duty trucks will be regulated to 14.8 volts. I don't see the voltage difference as a problem.
Any devices that plug into a 12 volt automotive accessory outlet will often be built to tolerate voltage as high as 16 volts. For a decent number of my automotive accessories they are built to handle 32 or even 48 volts for compatibility with 28 volt ai
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The voltage out of an automotive alternator can easily get to 15 volts
If it does that, there is a problem. It should never, ever go over 12.65+2=14.65v. That's how electrolyte gets cooked off.
I doubt anyone will claim that LFP can be dropped in everywhere that there is a lead-acid battery
The person I replied to did so.
it's that incompatibility with common 12 volt automotive and other similar devices/systems is not among the reasons to avoid LFP.
Yes, in fact it is a reason to avoid dropping it in anywhere that a flooded battery is used without knowing what you're doing, and I've explained why.
Let us know when you get your A6 or equivalent.
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If it does that, there is a problem. It should never, ever go over 12.65+2=14.65v. That's how electrolyte gets cooked off.
This mechanic appears to disagree.
https://bryansgarage.com/norma... [bryansgarage.com]
If the issue is a matter that the current alternators in vehicles would not allow for LFP batteries because they aren't providing sufficient voltage then that sound like either a $30 problem with a voltage regulator replacement, or a $300 problem with replacing the alternator. If people want to replace their lead-acid battery in their vehicle with a LFP battery then parts shops can package the LFP with the regulator in the same box. That m
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I don't know what that means, I couldn't find an answer with a quick search, but I assume it's some kind of automotive certification.
Yes, specifically the ASE automotive electrical certification. I took the prep class at Yuba College from a multiple-decade industry veteran, and I got an A. I still have my notes. I passed the ASE A6 exam years later with a good score (someplace in the nineties, I forget exactly) when it was relevant to my employment.
Well, I have an electrical engineering degree
Relevant if you had studied flooded batteries or automotive charging systems, which you clearly didn't
a ham radio license
Irrelevant. I also have a ham radio license, so I know first hand how irrelevant that is t
LFP for everyone (Re:LFP for dummies) (Score:5, Interesting)
Ford is wise to continue with this battery plant as the cells can be used in grid scale storage, whole-house batteries, UPS systems for computers/telephones/whatever, power tools and lawn care equipment, portable power packs like those for charging cell phones and such, and more besides just electric vehicles.
As mentioned in the parent post these LFP batteries can be made in a form factor and with a BMS to be a drop in replacement for most any lead-acid battery. With antimony in short supply, a vital metal for durable lead-acid batteries like those for automotive use, there is an opening for more LFP batteries to take their place. Ford can get ahead on replacing lead-acid automotive batteries with LFP meaning there is a market for these batteries even if they sell few EVs.
Then is the rising popularity of the PHEV. As far as I can tell a typical HEV, the hybrids that don't plu-in, have a battery of around 1.5 kWh. A typical PHEV battery will be about 15 kWh, ten times the capacity of the HEV battery. A BEV will have a battery of about 75 kWh, about five times the size of the PHEV battery. So, I'd expect Ford to be able to sell plenty of vehicles with LFP batteries even after the EV subsidies dry up. As I understand the EV tax credits few HEVs would qualify, and not every PHEV would qualify either, and yet people were buying them in large numbers. I'd expect that the ending of EV subsidies would reduce BEV sales while increasing sales on HEVs and PHEVs for a variety of reasons.
I'd like to see PHEVs have a bit more all electric range, most or all on the market today have an all electric range of 50 miles or less. If they can get that up to something like 75 miles so there's a vanishingly few people that could not get their daily commute in on all electric power, and perhaps more than half can get two days or more on a single charge, then that makes the PHEV more of a BEV with a gasoline backup than a gasoline vehicle with a battery backup. If Ford is looking for places to put their extra battery capacity because BEV sales dried up then there's a clue.
I expect the ICEV as we know it to disappear, replaced with PHEVs, HEVs, and "electrified" ICEVs where technologies developed for EVs are incorporated into ICEVs more and more. That will drive demand for LFPs.
LFP is a safer and lower cost alternative to NMC, and Ford has ample opportunities to cash in on that advantage even if they lose some government subsidies. I believe they will end up ahead by continuing this project. As if anyone should listen to me, Ford would know more on this than I do and they aren't walking away.
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With PHEVs you have to religiously plugin to benefit. I think EREV has a much bigger oppurtunity in the US than traditional PHEVs. Big cars, lots of people with driveways, relatively expensive cars. Perfect for range extenders.
Also EREV still needs big batteries.
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> With PHEVs you have to religiously plugin to benefit
You benefit on some level whether you plug in or not - even if you don't you get much, much, greater MPG from a hybrid set-up, and if you do plug in you can pretty much avoid buying fuel for most of the year and pay very little in transportation costs. So I'm not really sure how true that is.
Reading about it (I'd never heard the term before you mentioned it) EREVs are probably a good idea anyway, I'm actually surprised that's not what hybrids are. (Fo
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There is no bright line that makes the distinction between EREV and PHEV so your recommendation is a bit meaningless. I'll see people make the distinction in that an EREV has no mechanical link between the ICE and the wheels. Well, the Chevy Volt (that's with a "V", not Bolt with a "B") is widely considered to be an EREV but it has a mechanical linkage between the ICE and wheels. It's a very simple linkage that is only active when at highway speeds but it is there.
Without that bright line to make an EREV
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Series-Parallel PHEVs like the RAV4 Prime are more efficient at highway speeds that pure series PHEVs like the i3 Range Extender. Given that Canadians and Americans tend to drive much farther and typically at higher average speeds than their European counterparts, one could argue that series-parallel PHEVs might be a better fit for much of the North American market for now.
Re:LFP for dummies (Score:5, Interesting)
Tesla has been using them since 2021, but other manufacturers have been using them longer and in far greater volumes too. The main issue with the Tesla ones is that they are still using cylindrical cells, instead of prismatic or pouch cells. Cylindrical cells are in theory able to deliver higher power, but in practice for a battery made up of so many of them... Well, Teslas don't charge as fast as rivals using other types of LFP cells, and acceleration is limited by the motors and grip.
The downsides to cylindrical cells include lower energy density and greater weight per Wh. They are also more of a pain to thermally manage. It's not really clear why Tesla sticks with them, when everyone else has mostly already ditched them for automotive use.
You can already get lead acid replacement batteries for cars that use LFP too.
It's a new Cuba! (Score:2, Insightful)
The Big 3 better hope they can run at a profit in the US alone, because the current administration seems wholly committed to ensuring they will only make globally uncompetitive models: too big, shitty fuel economy, focused on ICE, non-existent pedestrian / vulnerable road user safety features, and poor quality and value for money thanks to a lack of home market competition.
Visiting the US is going to end up being like visiting Cuba, at this rate -- something relatively few visitors do, always mindful of the
Federal annual vehicle registration taxes (Score:3)
are in the Big Beautiful Bill. $250.00/year additional registration fee for electric vehicles, and $100.00/yr for hybrids. An analysis has shown these fees cover more than the share of the cost for road upkeep, so they are punitive.
From: https://insideevs.com/news/758215/federal-tax-ev-registration-250/
Based on the Federal Highway Administration's (FHWA) math, this seems to be based on the idea that the average American driver burns through about 550 gallons of gas each year. That means that the total out-of-pocket gas tax expense comes out to around $101.
Seems steep for EV owners, right? That's because it is. Writing a check for $250 (actually up from the original proposal of $200) is the equivalent of paying for nearly 1,100 gallons of fuel at the current gas tax rate. It's about twice what an average gas car burns in a year, and it's not a one-time charge, either. It's annual. This proposal would be the equivalent of the average commuter paying the $0.184 tax on 1,389 gallons of gasoline.
Interestingly, the bill exempts commercial and government vehicles from any registration fees. Meaning that rental car companies, Amazon's delivery vans, and even those huge Class 8 Semis aren't facing additional (or proportional) costs despite using the road system far more aggressively than the average commuter.
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If we go to a federal automobile registration, the taxes should simply all be paid there based on your previous year's mileage. Remove the taxes from the gas so that both ICE/hybrid/EV can all pay equally based on their actual use of the roads by mileage. You complain about fair, but I bet you won't like to actually pay fair.
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"The federal government expects each state to implement this new federal EV tax at a state level"
They're treading all over our State's Rights!!!
My company can't actually make important decisions because they have no idea what the administration is going to do or screw up next.
Government should get out of the way of business!!!
pay your own way (Score:2)
Hey, if Ford wants to build an battery factory **with its own money** and build EV cars that are not subsidized, more power to them. It's a free country.
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Hey, if Ford wants to build an battery factory **with its own money** and build EV cars that are not subsidized, more power to them. It's a free country.
Wait... I thought we were talking about America.
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Well, except maybe Idaho - weren't they trying to pass a law banning any kind of EV?
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It seems apparent that several of his actions are not simply a matter of cutting regulations, but actually amount to active punitive measures against further development of both EVs and renewable energy - effectively equivalent to creating new regulations against the further development of EVs and renewables, the free market be damned.
federal govmint (Score:2)
Ford knows it won't survive 5 years if it can't compete with Chinese cars + batteries. Chinese electric cars are quickly taking over as the best and least expensive option in many parts of the world. Buick, Cadillac and Lincoln each have models made in China and sold in the US market. Volvo has at least 3 models built in China for global markets, including the US.
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Why would they need to compete with Chinese cars in the US? No Chinese car brand has ever made it's way stateside. We have been hearing about fabulously cheap Chinese cars for decades, but you can't buy them here and if you import them the cost savings go away. And yes, I know some well known car brands (like Volvo) produce some cars in China. Those are not the cheapo cars everyone is talking about.
If we ever see a BYD Electric car in the US it will cost 3-4x what it did in China.
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He's one of those penguins Trump if trying to tariff.
Tux?
Re:I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:4, Insightful)
Unless you’re talking about some remote corner of Texas, rural locations are great for EVs. Plenty of room at home for a domestic charger and often lots of land and roof space for solar & batteries too. Never need to get to a gas station again. How often are rural drivers travelling more than 300 miles in a day? Not very often, I’d wager.
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How often are rural drivers travelling more than 300 miles in a day? Not very often, I’d wager.
You only need to do it once where there are no chargers. There are a lot of rural people who at least occasionally spend most of their day in their truck and never go through a town larger than 50 people. Well, a lot of people by rural standards. The world will still survive is they all drive ICE vehicles.
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I wasn't claiming EVs work yet for everyone in rural settings. I was claiming it works surprisingly well for many. Obviously, it all depends on your personal circs -- what journeys you make, whether they will have chargers en route, if you can afford a charger at your place, etc.
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My farmer father-in-law's truck was never more than 30 miles from their place... and 90% of the time it was never more than 5 miles from home.
If he were still alive, knowing him - he'd probably own an F150 Lightning already. ... and, with his curiousity, he'd probably have tried to take it apart by now.
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ever other weekend during summer, and at highway speeds be lucky to get 230. I wanted an EV until I did a couple of trips in my friends, and his "free" gas. Now I, and another friend, don't want one. (think my next will be a plug in hybrid or a prius...)
btw, highway speeds are 75-85. If you think highway is 55-65 then its you who needs to learn about the rest of the country.
Re: I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:2)
We have one EV and one hybrid. While I have taken the EV on a 500mi trip (one way) a couple times, the hybrid is definitely more appealing. If I could do the trip with only one EV charge, I would take the EV every time.
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I didn't mind the charge time per say, but rather the charge station and location the most. Also the fact it required #1 a phone, #2 an app, #3 an account. Sorry not, you require a phone my most polite response will be F.U.
If I can drive up, insert card, and be gone in about 30ish min along with the normal amenities including safety of a main stream gas station.
Some of the places we went to/through had me wondering if we would get mugged. Or if the app had incorrect info (and in some cases it was outdated
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There will come a time in the very near future where range will approach 400mi on a single charge and can charge in approximately 10 minutes. Then there will be almost no more excuses.
Do the math on how much power that would take and then consider how practical that would be. I'll help you out, unless there is some huge leap in electrical vehicle efficiency it would take one thousand kilowatts to get 400 miles of electrical charge in 10 minutes. I get to one megawatt of power by extrapolating from the charging rates of a Tesla Model S I found on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Maybe it's not quite one megawatt but in that ballpark. Given the known limits of physics and che
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You know that two separate companies are rolling out 1MW charging right now, right? In China, of course.
Your predictions sound awfully like predictions about hardware limits for chips. There's still tons of room for improvement. LFP densities have been improving fast, and can improve further. We can get to lower cost through sodium (already happening) and solid state offers greater densities and better longevity still, although it's a hard problem to solve.
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How often are rural drivers travelling more than 300 miles in a day? Not very often, Iâ(TM)d wager.
I have a few points on that.
First, how many BEVs have a 300 mile range? Even then you'd want some kind of buffer on that so your not pushing the car that last mile. So, how many BEVs with a 350 mile range? There's no doubt they exist but that's high end stuff. What's a more typical BEV range? 250 miles? That goes especially after considering a few years of fair wear and tear.
Second, a 200 mile trip might not be exactly common but that's what it might take to get to a "big city" where there is specialt
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300 miles is absolutely bog standard nowadays, it's not high end at all. There's 113 models with 500km+ range in the UK, from the Renault Scenic to the Kia EV4 to the Xpeng G6. High end is 400mi+. I had a Renault Zoe back in 2020, which is decidedly not high end, and that had a range of 250mi. My Mercedes EQA is higher end but the cheapest baby Merc EV, and it has a range of 330miles. I'm sure the choice is shittier in the US, though.
Infra matters, for sure. But a 200 mile trip in a 300 mile range EV should
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You must live in a shithole.
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Re: I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:2, Flamebait)
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That's an ideal scenario for an EV.
It's not bad, depending on distance, but hardly ideal. EVs are best if you use it regularly for short journeys. You save hugely if you can charge from solar panels during the day. You get the benefit most if you use the battery regularly somewhere in the middle of its range. You get lots of benefit if you use it plenty and have the reduced maintainance
If you have a near end of life car and just need it for flexibility but rarely drive it, then it can easily make more environmental sense to run it than to bu
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1. The “middle of the range” thing is the wrong mindset. People worry so much about preserving their theoretical future max range that they deliberately hobble themselves to 20 to 80% of their range today.
2. In five years, an EV will have lost 5 to 10% of its range. I can buy a second hand Renault Zoe today with easily more than 200 miles range. That’s far more than “just enough for your run into town”
Re: I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:2)
It's true that I "hobble" my EV to 255 miles.
But that's even less of hassle than my ICE car being hobbled to a quarter tank of gas, because that tank won't refill until I drive to a gas station. My EV has 255 miles every single morning, because it recharges while I sleep.
It's pretty rare that I drive anywhere near 255 miles in a day.
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I work from home. I drive into town once a week. I will live.
That's an ideal scenario for an EV.
Its an ideal scenario for a PHEV. You have no need for an EV's huge battery.
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Re: I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:2)
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How long do you plan to live? There is always a point where keeping a car going costs more than a new car. Especially if your car has computer components. I guess though if you plan to die in the next decade then you are probably correct.
Re: I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:2)
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It's already 8 years old, so you are expecting it to last at least 20 years with just basic maintenance. Because those rising costs are also going to be the rising cost of parts. So if it needs anything besides some filters and oil you can expect that to also be reasonably out of your reach.
Unless you are super mechnaically inclined and can junk yard hunt for parts.
Re: I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:3)
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I didn't say they wouldn't be available. I'm saying that if you think the price of cars is going to be out of your reach, why would the price of parts not be?
Do you think the parts also will not be impacted by inflation?
Re: I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:2)
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Yup. Until I finally got rid of it ~ 2018... I never had trouble finding parts for my 93 Escort Wagon.
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I've got a '99 Dodge van that vehicle-specific parts have already become unobtainium outside of junkyards, so this is definitely a case of YMMV.
Buddy of mine has some old Honda econobox that he's mentioned parts for the manual transmission are no longer available, too. He ended up just going the junkyard route and hoping for the best as far as how long the "new to him" replacements last. So when things start breaking that aren't the typical maintenance/wear components that are catered to by the aftermarket
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... and even the exhaust is made out of aluminum.
I think your Dunning-Kruger is showing, aluminum is too soft and melts too easily, stainless steel is much more likely.
I also get more than 10 years out of most cars, except the $200 ones they go about 5 years.
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If you've ever been to Georgia or Ohio, they are both lousy with heroin users. Worse than California or Texas by far.
For drug addiction over all, New Mexico and Alaska take the top spots every year. California tends to be ranked in the high 30's out of 50.
Perhaps you're seeing that there is less of a willingness to hide and cover up our social problems in California versus the place you live in. At the end of the day you need an objective measure rather than a subjective personal observation.
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Re: I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:3)
We have the largest population in the country by a significant margin and around a quarter of our homeless came here from other states. Personally I think that the number should be considered to be higher since it includes people who moved here for jobs that weren't sufficiently stable to move for, and people who were self employed but it didn't pan out. People literally come here because they know they will be able to get social services. This is enabled by other states being allowed to refuse to implement
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So basically you think that there is no sentinent life outside your county? That borders on solipsism, you know.
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Enjoy the few years before oil prices surge when everywhere else mandates EV and the demand for oil plummets.
As it is, for decades I heard about nothing else but the cheap fuel in the US compared to the rest of the world... and that's gone REALLY quiet for the last few years. Maybe you need to invade some more oil-producing countries again, that's bound to lower the price, right?
20% of new car sales worldwide are EV (not counting hybrid etc.). And we haven't even STARTED actually taxing/banning fuel based
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Re:I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:5, Interesting)
Gosh, if only there were thousands of locations all over the country, in which you could install dozens of chargers, which charge your car more than fast enough, and which were all conveniently located near roads, and which - for instance - could be sited on an existing, now going defunct, site which won't be used as much by ICE cars as time goes by.
The EV charging argument is dead - fast charging and high-capacity batteries. Same way that apartments never used to come with parking spaces at all... things will evolve. Same way they had to add telecoms, laundry rooms, Internet, cable/satellite TV, online rent payments, etc. etc. etc.
If they want the customers, they'll add in EV chargers to the existing spaces. It's really that simple. After a bunch of tenants associations demand it, it'll happen and become the norm. And they'll add their 10% to the cost and realise it's actually a direct revenue stream (unlike all the above which are just ways to entice customers) so long as they don't go silly with it (because then people will just charge elsewhere).
Saying that THAT's going to be the blocker? You're just looking for excuses. It's that simple.
Landlords will start lobbing in EV chargers with a 10% commission as soon as their tenants start demanding them. And then laugh at the free money for doing nothing, because people are too lazy to just drive it down the road to an already-existing gas station converted to have EV points on it.
I'm literally at a workplace with EV charging points, and EV vehicles for company use. They save a fortune on their own transport expenses AND they get revenue from... customers! Willing to charge their EVs! There are sometimes literal arguments over the spaces (e.g. when a non-EV car is blocking an EV charger).
On my way home are a dozen stations with EV charging. And MOST houses (not all, granted) can have an EV charger fitted very simply. And new-builds are starting to mandate them.
Sorry, but "oh the software's a bit clunky" or "my landlord might not want to" is literally the bottom of the barrel for arguments.
For reference, I don't drive an EV. My next car - without doubt - will be an EV. And I'll install an EV charger at home to do it. I literally bought a house years ago with the criteria for having an EV charger... before I ever had an EV. Because, to me, it's like buying a house that isn't on the electric or doesn't have broadband. Whether or not I need/use it this instant, I want my house to be able to do that.
So I bought a house which deliberately has a driveway, a porch with power, and an ideal spot for installing an EV charger. The only reason I don't change today... is an actual problem with EVs... it's a bit pricey to lay out for one up-front. But when my car needs more than a basic service... I'll be pricing it up.
Re: I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:3)
You live alone, apparently and only need one charger.. I have five vehicles parked at my house for five different people. Not sure how I would even charge 5 cars without having to shuffle them around all the time.. in the garage, out of the garage.. If I install one charger then I migh
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This is a very American post. You have five cars and cannot conceive of a 20m (that's 6.5 decafeet) charging cable.
But wait a minute your post doesn't even make a lick of sense. If you'd have to shuffle cars to get one in the garage, then you already have to shuffle cars around to get out whichever is in the back already.
Re: I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:2)
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Now I have to worry about my car not being charged because my kid came home and stole the cable.
I guess you should have raised your kid better...
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If your kid's a dickhead, then no amount of technology will fix that. But it's amazing that you think you're own kid is that antisocial and thoughtless. Are they really that bad? Do they also siphon your gas so they don't have to fill up at the gas station?
But on a note practical not, you are permitted my the Constitution to have two or even more charging cables if you like. You can even get power sharing devices so they won't overload the circuit. You can even run some SWA cable or whatever you use locally
Re: I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:2)
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I think EVs suck for a lot of reasons but the the at home charging thing isnt really the issue people make it out to be.
You really just need two phases, even on 30 amps circuit so ~23 can flow to car you can top an EV overnight. There are devices now that can disable the charger when other major electrical appliance likes dryers or ranges are running, so max load calculations are not a issue either.
The biggest problem is electrical codes in places need to catch up to allow some of this stuff, so home owner
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L1 charging even works fine for a lot of people, especially if there's an L3 fast charger in the area for occasional use. If your car is home 12 hours per day, on average, you can put in 50 miles of range per day with an ordinary 120V 15A outlet. That's 350 miles per week, which exceeds the 280 miles per week the average American drives. A sequence of heavier-than-average driving days could leave your battery low, which is why it's helpful to have access to a fast charger, though it won't normally be need
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The only other wrinkle that does need considering here is what happens when you have power outages. In a lot places those last 4-10 hours depending on what happened.
If you have have everyone using EVs and many/most living in older homes with 60/80/100/200a services using L2s dialed down to 30A and less it easy to imagine an entire community waking up in the morning after a thunderstorm to cars that did not get charged. It could be very disruptive. It is I think not hard to imagine this outcome in a lot pl
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True, but if the EVs have decent range (say, 300 miles), a reasonable commute (say, 40 miles) and there's a fast charger in the area, it's easy enough to make sure you never get into a situation where an overnight power outage will keep you from getting to work. Just hit the fast charger whenever you're out and about and your remaining range has dropped below 100 miles, just long enough to get it back above 100 miles, which will only take 2-3 minutes This won't happen often for most people, less often tha
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Landlords will start lobbing in EV chargers with a 10% commission as soon as their tenants start demanding them. And then laugh at the free money for doing nothing, because people are too lazy to just drive it down the road to an already-existing gas station converted to have EV points on it.
I don't believe that would be a matter of being "lazy". If BEVs got to be so popular that apartment managrs would install EV chargers for tenants that ask for them then why would the people in the apartments drive to a public charger? The apartment dweller isn't likely to buy the high-end BEV that can take on a 10 minute DC fast charge from a 250 to 350 kW charger. Budget minded BEVs will likely be limited to 120 kW or less, meaning they'd have to "babysit" their EV for potentially hours. That might wor
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Enjoy the few years before oil prices surge when everywhere else mandates EV and the demand for oil plummets.
Why would oil prices surge if EV mandates are driving down oil demands?
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Enjoy the few years before oil prices surge when everywhere else mandates EV and the demand for oil plummets.
Why would oil prices surge if EV mandates are driving down oil demands?
Makes no sense to me either
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Makes no sense to me either
In fact, it doesn't make sense and it may be the central problem with our approach to reducing emissions. There is likely a cap on how much we can reduce emissions relying on markets. The price of fossil fuels will drop until the demand for their use increases to match the availability. Promoting alternatives is not going to work. We need to regulate the use of fossil fuels and let the alternatives fill the market created by those regulations.
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Fixed/semi-variable costs and high capex costs of oil production need to be covered by a shrinking base of users, maybe?
Re:I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would oil prices surge if EV mandates are driving down oil demands?
For the opposite reason that products become much cheaper as they become widely available.
* as demand reduces, supply reduces
* with EVs taking off, gas stations are already planning to close, selling land if they can, whilst they can.
* reduced competition means more ability to rip people off
* more rip offs means fewer people willing to pay, so profits reduce and more places close
Of course, as gas becomes less and less available, range anxiety can become a problem and so people will avoid driving and make the problem worse.
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as demand reduces, supply reduces
But the first to go will be the more expensive supply, leaving less expensive supply in it's place.
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For the opposite reason that products become much cheaper as they become widely available.
* as demand reduces, supply reduces
* with EVs taking off, gas stations are already planning to close, selling land if they can, whilst they can.
* reduced competition means more ability to rip people off
* more rip offs means fewer people willing to pay, so profits reduce and more places close
Of course, as gas becomes less and less available, range anxiety can become a problem and so people will avoid driving and make the problem worse.
Gas stations are already planning to close because of more people buying EVs? I'd like a source on that. Why would they not switch to offering EV charging than close?
I don't know about how gas stations operate where you are but around here they offer more than gasoline. Most all of them will sell cold drinks, snacks, and often many essential foods that can be stored on a shelf or kept in a freezer. Some offer fresh fruits and salads that are known to have a short shelf life, as well as hot food like tak
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You are forgetting something to, the less of something that sells, the higher percentage needed for profit. The fixed costs still need to be paid regardless of how much sells. So it's just not greed.
But honestly the best thing a gas station could do is have EV charging stations and I am amazed I don't see that.
PS my experience with EV has made me not want an EV. a day trip turning into over night and still having to stop to charge in a remote parking lot of Ross w/ no grantee of bathroom or other amenitie
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Enjoy the few years before oil prices surge when everywhere else mandates EV and the demand for oil plummets.
We will still be using oil for lubricants, pharmaceuticals, plastics, chemical feedstocks, fertilizers, and fuel for shipping and aviation. Gasoline and diesel are part of the fractional distillation process so will continue to be produced. If there is less demand prices should actually go down.
Fun fact, gasoline used to be an unwanted waste byproduct of oil refining. It will be there whether you use it or not.
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Enjoy the few years before oil prices surge when everywhere else mandates EV and the demand for oil plummets.
So you expect prices to surge as demand decreases? I'm almost positive I've heard that economics work the exact opposite of that.
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That's a fine and polite way of saying "I surround myself with like minded anti-EV people and I'm so self centred that I think the world outside my closed circle doesn't exist".
Re:I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:4, Interesting)
I live in a small southern rural town, like good ol' redneck boys everywhere, 1 hour drive to the nearest mall / shopping area, 75% of votes go republican. I've seen more EVs bought here in the last year than in the last several combined. At least two cybertrucks, many Tesla cars (even seeing them at low-budget apartments now, and not just upper-middle class), plus other brands of stuff. They are totally commonplace here now. Maybe we're behind the curve and it's just now getting popular here, but EVs are definitely being sold.
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This town is on an interstate, so we actually have a Tesla Supercharger station in a hotel parking lot, a Sheetz that has 4 EV chargers, and apparently the Nissan dealership has a charging station as well (just googled my town because this made me curious).
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And it's also nice when ICE agents swarm some Iranian and Chinese spies.
Right now they're too busy trafficking people who have just shown up for their immigration hearing appointments for that.
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The nearest CostCo is an hour and a half away.
You can't possibly really be in the US. :-P
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Thank you for the sample size of one.
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Paid off truck and plan to keep it.
If you are concerned about climate change you should keep the truck rather than buying a new EV in any case. You should drive it into the ground and then buy a used truck to replace it. The only time you should consider buying an EV is when the alternative is to buy a new ICE truck.
ZERO EV chargers in my county.
The only local charger you are likely to need is the one you have at home. You aren't going to use the full range of an EV doing a single day of short local trips. Where you need chargers is in the places you travel to with longe
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Given that pick-up truck that's been all over Slashdot costs around $20,000, and there's plenty of other EVs for under $30,000 (just not the luxury cars you hear a lot about because of Tesla), you're way off base thinking a new battery costs that much.
Googling, even Tesla batteries seem to be under that, somewhere in the $6,000-$15,000 range, depending on whether you get a Tesla branded one or not. But that's for a luxury car with little being done to control the costs, and most of the effort being put into
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WTF am I reading?
Were you trying to make a point? What aspect of what I said were you trying to challenge? Can you try writing in English rather than just filling a post with arbitrary links, none of which have to do with battery prices?