Jamie Dimon's Blunt Message for Europe: 'You're Losing' (cnbc.com) 181
An anonymous reader shares a report: JPMorgan Chase boss Jamie Dimon did not pull his punches when he spoke at Ireland's Department of Foreign Affairs.
"You're losing," he said of European competitiveness with the U.S. and Asia, in comments reported by the Financial Times. "Europe has gone from 90% U.S. GDP to 65% over 10 or 15 years. That's not good."
"We've got this huge, strong market and our companies are big and successful, have huge kinds of scale that are global. You have that, but less and less," Dimon said on Thursday.
"You're losing," he said of European competitiveness with the U.S. and Asia, in comments reported by the Financial Times. "Europe has gone from 90% U.S. GDP to 65% over 10 or 15 years. That's not good."
"We've got this huge, strong market and our companies are big and successful, have huge kinds of scale that are global. You have that, but less and less," Dimon said on Thursday.
Winning? (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe Europe has seen America starting to get tired of all the winning it's been doing lately, and decided to pass on the opportunity.
BTW, Dimon is a vicious fuck-witted opportunistic asshole.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That is my take as well. And Europe does not have a severe, long-term and possibly unrecoverable crash in its near future either.
Re:Winning? (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't kid yourself, when they crash, they will be dragging Europe down with them.
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See Greece and Italy after the US financial crisis
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Well... yes and no. Greece and Italy weren't the result of the US crash, they were the result of their own policies and the world being fiscally blind to them. If the US financial crises be accused of doing anything it was to raise scrutiny of the PIGS (You left out Portugal and Spain), but their crisis was directly their own making.
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Amplified Boom-Bust (Score:2)
Don't kid yourself, when they crash, they will be dragging Europe down with them.
Yes, when the US economy tanks it will damage most Western economies as well as others. However, as we saw with the prime mortage crisis, the damage will be much worse in the US. That's the difference between the US and most other western economies: it has an amplified boom-bust cycle. Right now, at the peak of a boom, it's ahead but once it goes bust it will drop much more. Europe and Canada try to dampen the oscillations a lot more.
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Europe and Canada try to dampen the oscillations a lot more.
And they will succeed, because they know what is coming.
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Re:Amplified Boom-Bust (Score:4, Informative)
However, as we saw with the prime mortage crisis, the damage will be much worse in the US.
What? lol.
The US not only had a lower decline in GDP due to 2008, but it also flew out of that decline so fast that Europe can arguably be said to have still not recovered.
Is that where we are now? We just make shit up to help us rationalize the shit going on in the US, now?
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Ah, yes, your usual level of reality perception strikes again.
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Well, ... there is still some funny dampener on the European potential crash :D
as much as you are right
The idiotic taxes US imposed on _everyone_ including Europe, let many mid sized companies bail out of the US market.
So the US themselves helped us to decouple our market a bit from our former biggest customer.
It does not shield us from any catastrophe happening over there (e.g. oil prices are still super important for the EU), but 10 years ago a sudden crash would have had more drastic effects on Europe.
Th
Re:Winning? (Score:4, Informative)
Not only will ultimately Europe suffer worse than we do from any economic recession here, we'll climb out of it better too.
Dimon may be a prick- but he's also not wrong.
Trying to puff your chest out won't help solve the problem, even if it does make you feel better about it.
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The only fucking moron here are you. There is no "we". The billionaires will climb out of it better, sure. You are not one of them, though. They don't even consider you being the same species. "We" my arse.
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The only fucking moron here are you.
If that's what you've got out of the gate, I have a feeling I'm about to make you look very stupid.
There is no "we".
Are you trying to imply that US income is unconnected to its GDP?
The billionaires will climb out of it better, sure.
Yes. They are, after all, people who live here...
You are not one of them, though.
Correct, I am not.
They don't even consider you being the same species.
Eh, I worked for one for a while. They're not that bad. Some can be though.
"We" my arse.
Are you trying to imply that non-billionaires didn't recover from the 2008 recession?
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Re:Winning? (Score:5, Interesting)
Mr. Dimon has a net worth of $2.8 billion. You typically do not become that wealthy by being kind and generous.
As for his complaint, when you dig into it a bit, much of the increase in the GDP gap can be attributed to massive growth in the US tech sector.
But now that companies like Alphabet/Google, Apple, Amazon, Meta, and X have grown so large and gained so much influence under the US regulatory system, we're really seeing how ugly they've become. The US is tipping into right-wing authoritarianism and most of those companies are either helping to push the country in that direction or turning a blind eye to it to protect their wealth. And with it, you're seeing an erosion of civil rights, an increase in wealth inequity, a loss of the free press / more propaganda and sanewashing, an increase in health inequity, and much greater levels of government corruption.
So sure, GDP is higher. But at what cost? And what does the future look like for the USA? If things go south, Mr. Dimon can flee with much of his wealth. For much of the rest of the US population, that's not really an option. So maybe we need to look at the bigger picture?
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Mr. Dimon has a net worth of $2.8 billion. You typically do not become that wealthy by being kind and generous.
Typically you become that wealthy by having rich parents.
Sure enough, his dad was a stock broker, did well enough to send him to prep school. The contacts and the financial support were all in place before he was born.
I think you are right. Europe may be better off without US style massive GDP gains while the citizens suffer. Also apologies for the UK tanking its GDP with Brexit, I didn't vote for it but it's a pretty damning reflection on our education system.
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Who really needs health care anyway? You die when you die, right?
Or as Senator Joni Ernst (R-Iowa) said at a town hall meeting in response to constituent complaints about the Medicaid cuts in their/Trump's bill, "We are all going to die." Senator Mitch McConnell (R-Kentucky) followed up later with, "They'll get over it."
What these comments fail to recognize is that while part of the equation is longevity, it's mostly about quality of life -- heath care usually helps with that and health insurance usually helps pay for that.
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The US has great healthcare.
Our longevity is also top-of-the-world- if you're well-off.
About 90% of the US has good health care, and good longevity.
About 10% has basically none and nearly third-world longevity.
What the Senator is saying is, "who gives a fuck if poor people die?"
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I don't think you really grasp what's really being said.
...
What the Senator is saying is, "who gives a fuck if poor people die?"
No, I get it -- as did many of her constituents.
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From a moral perspective, it's disgusting to look at that segment of people that way, but from an accuracy statement, it's IQ-of-50 critical thinking to apply the reasoning the US as a whole.
Re: Winning? (Score:2)
You may want to rethint the meaning of that number [healthsystemtracker.org].
Re: Winning? (Score:2)
You don't become wealth by being right, either. In fact, being right or wrong has nothing to do with being wealthy.
Generational wealth has.
Re:Winning? (Score:5, Informative)
European productivity is well behind America, and the gap is widening.
Why Europe's productivity is falling behind [ecipe.org]
European PE ratios are significantly lower than in America, which means that investors, including European investors, expect European companies to grow more slowly.
BTW, Dimon is a vicious fuck-witted opportunistic asshole.
That doesn't make him wrong.
Oh,but it does... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not that he stated the facts...
but because it shows he is narrow-minded and missing much more important points...
Do we live to work or work to live?
Is making more billions for him and his budy-billionaires is what really matters?
It just shows that something is terribly wrong with his values and understanding what does it mean to live and understand other people...
Re: Winning? (Score:2)
That doesn't make him wrong.
He's using a version of made-up numbers.
How about real numbers? E.g. how many average yearly salaries do you need in 2025 (vs. 2005, for instance) to buy an average house?
Or how many big macs can you buy from.an average salary?
Because US economy is leaving behind major parts of its population at a rapid pace. Higher GDP doesn't translate to better standard of living, it translates to fewer people hoarding even more wealth.
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Higher GDP doesn't translate to better standard of living, ... and quickly the exchange rate versus any "world currency" will adjust ...
Of course not.
Just double all prices in your country, and you have doubled (actually much more) your GPD. Simple.
And? No one has any benefit from that inside of your country
It is easy to have a high GPD, if a lot of it is selling and buying fictional assets on a stock market. As in futures, sell and buy options, and however all the "derivates" are called.
Just move the Lond
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European productivity is well behind America, and the gap is widening.
So what? It's not like American workers make more money by being more productive. [epi.org] Why not look at metrics that are actually related to people's lives? Poverty rate, infant mortality rate, life expectancy, quality of life, economic mobility, press freedom, literacy rate?
I know it's hard for capitalists to comprehend, but the economy isn't everything. It doesn't matter if a bunch of companies make a ton of money, if the government doesn't collect taxes off it, and spend that tax income on its people.
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The cognitive dissonance is strong with this one.
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Give the EU some credit. It's very good at banning successful ideas originating in America.
Re: Winning? (Score:2, Insightful)
Before Europe can try to solve a problem it needs to appoint 237 bureaucrats to attend 5 years of conferences to establish the rules for solving the problem. Then it will appoint an additional 375 bureaucrats to execute phase 1a.1 of the solution in the 27 year cycle of problem solving. Success!
So? (Score:5, Insightful)
The more important questions are how are EU wages doing, how is access to healthcare, what is the average lifespan, and more importantly how happy are people? I don’t give a fuck if a bank made an extra few billion.
Re:So? (Score:5, Insightful)
The more important questions are how are EU wages doing, how is access to healthcare, what is the average lifespan, and more importantly how happy are people? I don’t give a fuck if a bank made an extra few billion.
What? You care about quality of life? You care about community? You believe that having the choice to simply "work to live" is better than being forced to "live to work"? What the fuck is wrong with you? /sarc
Re:So? (Score:5, Insightful)
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You see the homes, kitchens, vacations, etc. of people like Alec Baldwin and you realize wow, the finishes might be slightly fancier but in reality it's not fundamentally different -- not to any relevant degree
Here we are saying that most Americans have houses not very different from Alec Baldwin, and yet whenever electric vehicles are mentioned on slashdot, you can just bet comments are going to say "but half of America can't charge at home!"
Which is it? We all live like Alec Baldwin, or we can't even charge electric vehicles at home.
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I stopped at "all boats are being lifted". (Thanks for opening with that.) Obviously you're ignoring the relevant figures - Gini coefficient for starters. And the entire trajectory of American politics and society over the last several decades. The masses didn't vote for Trump because they were so happy and well-off under the status quo.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
The more important questions are how are EU wages doing, how is access to healthcare, what is the average lifespan, and more importantly how happy are people? I don’t give a fuck if a bank made an extra few billion.
What? You care about quality of life? You care about community? You believe that having the choice to simply "work to live" is better than being forced to "live to work"? What the fuck is wrong with you? /sarc
This correlation between macroeconomic measures of economic vitality and individual quality of living is an interesting discussion. There's probably some correlation, albeit not necessarily a strong correlation, between the two. Furthermore, income inequality may cause a strong national economy to lead to great lives for the few rich and struggles for the poor masses. Maybe the most interesting question is whether strong macroeconomic numbers are needed for sustainable broad quality of living, or if weak
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how are EU wages doing
Not so good. Europeans earn about 40% less than Americans, and the gap is growing.
how is access to healthcare
8% of Americans lack health insurance.
what is the average lifespan
Average lifespans are mostly determined by demographics, not government policies.
more importantly how happy are people?
Happiness is strongly correlated with hours of sunlight.
Re: So? (Score:2)
Re: So? (Score:2)
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In this instance, you're using the World Happiness Report, which is such a pile of unadulterated bullshit that you should be embarrassed citing it.
It doesn't measure happiness, it measures metrics that the report authors consider metrics of happiness., unironically called a "Life Evaluation Score", which fucking bizarrely precludes self-asserted "financial evaluation" (as if that's disjointed from
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Like all things, it comes down to how you defined "happy", and most "happiness metrics" are dubious at best.
But even then, not well correlated with being sunny.
In this instance, you're using the World Happiness Report, which is such a pile of unadulterated bullshit that you should be embarrassed citing it.
What is the 'correct' data? There are many studies, but they all show pretty similar trends, I just picked on that had a nice graph as I know that all studies seem to show fairly similar results. In some it's not Finland in top place but Denmark - also not known for its remarkable level of sunshine. So if the assertion is "It's the sunshine, stupid" you really need to come up with some evidence - your feelings on what should be the correlation are even les
Re: So? (Score:2)
8% of Americans lack health insurance._
40% of Americans have medical debt.
I couldn't even put a number on in for Europe, the very concept of that is all but unknown in Europe.
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My important questions are :
1). How much is the government fucking me over by taking the money that I've worked so hard for?
2). How much is the government fucking me over by banning shit?
3), How much is the government fucking me over by limiting my freedom?
That third question is really just the generic way of stating the first two.
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Didn't know it was a race (Score:2)
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Well, Europe definitely has lost the race to "most super rich people" and the one to "average people struggle" and "many people do not have access to healthcare" as well.
In other words, except to a psychopath economist, Europe is doing just fine.
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Indeed. Incidentally, the US does have limits on free speech as well, just a little looser ones in some cases and tighter ones in others. And remember, they are now rejecting people at the border that tweeted something unfriendly about Trump. That would be impossible in the EU because the legal guarantees on free speech.
Must be a MAGA moron that has no clue how their country works.
Brexit? (Score:5, Informative)
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What do you think the population of the EU is?
A group of land with over twice as many people as the US has almost 90% of its GDP? Fantastic- keep up the good work
Britain was only about 16% of the EU GDP, so no, Brexit did not reduce the EU's GDP from 90% of the US to 66% of the US. What fucking morons moderated this +5?
If you're European, I think you might be a perfect example of what's causing the effect he's talking about.
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We're not talking about GDP. We're talking about efficiency i.e. GDP per capita. The UK's GDP per capita was almost double that of the EU, and when it left the EU it did massively drag down the efficiency number as a result.
But that's not the full story. GDP isn't related to land area. Equating the two is silly but actually raises a more important point of the metric: total economic activity is a poor measure of economic health in general.
The reason the UK had significantly higher GDP per capita was because
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I can't stand Musk anymore, but for a good while Grok's answers were significantly better than the ones from the free version of ChatGPT. I haven't tried ChatGPT in a while, so maybe it improved or maybe other LLMs have surpassed Grok. Regardless, I'm not going to let someone's politics prevent me from using the tool that is currently providing
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None of the answers I've received have any noticeable signs of being tainted by politics. However, I only ask fairly objective questions.
At that point, I will purge the last remaining bit of Musk from my life and never look back. Luckily for me, so far none of Grok's response
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Now show the after tax amounts.
OK, Jamie... (Score:2)
OK, Jamie. But, I wouldn't go around insulting others. Take a look behind you. You see that huge truck barrelling towards you? The one that's going to race past you and rock your ass as it goes by leaves you in a swirling dust cloud? The one with the windshield banner that says CHINA?
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Hah... (Score:5, Interesting)
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And still the largest by far.
Its reduction from 40% in the '60s is expected as the world industrializes. This does not represent the decline of the US, but rather the improvement of the average third-world person.
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GDP is not a useful measure (Score:5, Interesting)
Healthcare alone is 18% of US GDP. This is simply a reflection of much higher cost of medical services here vs. Europe, where comparable services with, perhaps, better outcomes are closer to 10% of their GDP. So, just that alone is close to a factor of 2.
This applies to plenty of other areas. US prices of products and services are much higher for the same (or comparables) vs. Europe.
As such, GDP does not reflect the reality of quality of life or level of development of these areas.
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US prices of products and services are much higher for the same (or comparables) vs. Europe.
the US has the 2nd highest median equivalised disposable income (losing only to luxembourg) source [wikipedia.org]
the US also has far and away the highest number of billionaires and millionaires.
americans just have more money than europeans (and on average, larger houses, more cars, etc if that sort of thing matters to you).
europeans (those often online at least, that special breed) claim to not care, but the litany of defensive responses suggests otherwise.
And by losing (Score:2)
So are you still wonder why Europe was letting the Russians promote Trump so that our economy and country would collapse due to the general incompetence. That seemed like a really bad idea to me.
Watching the value of the American dollar tank made it pretty clear what's going on, Europe is hoping to position themselves as the default currency. Naturally that means they have to compete with China but if they can keep getting Ameri
Anyone can look rich with a big enough credit card (Score:2)
After the Euro became a thing in Greece, the country appeared wildly successful, everyone was clamouring for the high paying government jobs, borrowing like crazy, and "modernizing" by dumping ship building, olive growing, olive processing, etc.
Then the party ended, and they realized it was all a mirage, and not only did they have a debt problem, but that they had not been "investing" in a future.
I truly
Happiness (Score:5, Informative)
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Re: Happiness (Score:2)
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Happiness is a choice.
Re: Happiness (Score:2)
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You might think that someone went and polled people in places asking them how happy they were- they didn't.
Instead, they came up with a set of ethnocentric measures of happiness and then applied it around the world.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not a stupid person, and just too trusting.
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It shouldn't. The World Happiness Report is basically a measure of whiteness.
And GDP per capita is basically as measure of how much the latest AI generated advertising CEO earned, and not a function of underlying prosperity. So really all these measures are just silly.
with a set of ethnocentric measures
Freedom, healthcare outcomes, and education outcomes are not ethnocentric measures simply because African countries rank poorly.
Don't worry EU... (Score:2)
Europe has gone from 90% U.S. GDP to 65% over 10 or 15 years.
Don't worry about that EU, we're working on fixing this for you.
Europe is not losing (Score:2)
You, Jamie Dimon, are losing, because Europe doesn't do what you want it to do.
Europe is under no obligation to play the same game as you do.
Losing what? (Score:2)
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Re: Losing what? (Score:2)
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Actually a small fraction of the extremely rich do invest in or create things that a corporation wouldn't. But you can never tell which ones will do that, and they are often rather crazy in other ways.
I can't strike a good balance sheet on this thing. SpaceX required a wealthy backer to even get started. And probably Tesla speeded the development of electric cars by at least 5 years, more probably a decade. Those are really valuable contributions. They don't justify worshiping crazy ideas. But without
Re: Losing what? (Score:2)
The EU doesn't want success (Score:2)
Brussels: "Yay, high taxes"
Ireland: "Hey, I know, if we provide a way around those high taxes, we can get money from Americans"
(Ireland rakes in money)
Brussels: "Hey, you can't do that. We're enforcing a minimum tax!"
Americans: "See ya, bye!"
(money goes away)
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Most of those "Irish" tech companies are extracting money from Europeans and sending it overseas. The government of Ireland might have to re-balance their budget, but the people of Europe will be much better off kicking the foreigners out and creating their own tech platforms.
Besides, America won't even have money in a decade or two. They're busy pissing away their status as the broker of global trade, and the USD's status as world currency.
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Ironic. At the same time you are properly decrying the USs recent actions on trade, you are taking basically the same position as good for Europe.
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Effectively applied protectionism would be great for America. However, the problem with America's (current lack of consistent and rational) trade policy is that it's being administered by utterly incompetent buffoons. Pay less attention to what they're saying, and more to what they're doing.
Macroeconics is not everything (Score:3)
We have the happy people over here. If I need to choose between happiness and money, I'll take happiness any day.
Some countries actually take care of their people. What is it you say? Most of those are in Europe? Gosh.
Besides, the US empire is showing its cracks and its current government is only making things worse. Where are those factories located? Riiiiight. In CHINA. Those factories are things that actually matter. The US economy is mostly made of paper.
How are US foreign relations currently? Ooohhh... not good, you say? I wonder what the current USD value is because of your clown in chief... Not good, I take it.
LOL - what a jerk... (Score:3)
This extra GDP mainly goes to pockets of billionaires and welthy CEOs. No surprise he likes it...
1. If what is Trump is doing is "winning" - sorry, I prefer to be a loser...
2. Europe population is older and declining - calculate it per working age person and the difference is smaller
3. Take into account in Europe we work less, live longer and have more time for family
4. In Europe we have universal healthcare, free education and much healthier food.
Sure - top 10% in the US enjoys much higher standard but the rest is better off in Europe...
US GDP ginned up by borrowing and adding to debt (Score:5, Interesting)
Eurozone debt-to-GDP ration 88%
USA debt-to-GDP ratio 121% set to exceed 125% and continue skyward after recent bill passage
Seems like US is just borrowing our way to higher GDP (via consumption, gov spending, etc) . Soooo many problems with this course of action, at least for those of us who expect to be alive for the next 10 years. I for one am personal-finance spooked about the combined effects of tariffs, Powell being replaced by a presidential sycophant, and the explosion of more debt, raised debt ceiling, interest payments approaching 50% of the budget, etc.
Firing 1000 state department employees, drop kicking PBS, even tariff 'income' none of that rates a percentage point on the budget imbalance. I can see why Musk got pissed off. He took crazy political heat for his (reckless) DOGE...only to see it swamped by a crazy lopsided budget. But honestly, the number of 'smart' people who the president has run off the road is so high there is no excuse for anyone to complain.
No funny here (Score:2)
As expected all too sadly.
Brexit (Score:3)
This guyâ(TM)s exaggerating the numbers by ignoring Brexit. The EUâ(TM)s GDP dropped ~13% in 2020 because the UK left. Itâ(TM)s still not great numbers for the EU, but not as bad as claimed. Would be interesting to see the numbers based on PPP too.
"Europe has gone from 90% U.S. GDP to 65% over 10 (Score:2)
envy (Score:2)
Dimon is just envious of Europe's superior culture.
Re: (Score:2)
What, I thought the US was doing "great" and everything was just "excellent" and "beautiful"? Has Trump changed his stance? (Not asking whether Trump had any insights, because that is not going to happen...)
Dimon has less credibility than AC (Score:2)
But you, Mr Dollar Ton, propagated the AC brain fart into visibility and propagated its trollacious Subject. Your comment also seems confusing, almost incoherent, but that's probably the natural result of responding to whatever the ACs mumbled...
The joke I was hoping for? So many possibilities. So little humor on Slashdot these years.
Hey, it's my fault, too. My unfunny thought is "Any complicated system that becomes too fixated on one dimension will implode along that dimension." I dare you to laugh at that
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What is "trollacious" about the subject, shanen?
It is a statement of fact.
I know that in trumpistan facts are no longer liked, but it is what it is, you elected trump.
twice.
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There is no such vector, Victor. Besides, Orban is about to lose.
That island isn't Europe, it is Airstrip One, in a firm "special" relationship with trumpistan.
France may have flirted, but Le Pen is still not marching ICE thugs to arrest French citizens.
The AfD in Germany is an Eastern German artifact, the grandchildren of Honecker's cadres. They've hit the ceiling and will stay there or lose.
Stupidity is there, but in Europe the majority doesn't worship it like that in some other territories.
Most importantly, wild, ignorant and aggressive religiosity isn't a thing in Europe, which makes it a much more pleasant place to be.
And now needs to be quoted for the censor troll mods.
Re: You elected Trump (Score:2)
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The Eastern Orthodox are rather benign, though. They're nowhere on the level of the Evangelist Christian fundies. I'm not biased. I'm an atheist.
Re: You elected Trump (Score:2)
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USA MAGAt, have fun dying from diseases because you can't get vaccines, being homeless because medical bills took your house, being killed in a flash flood or tornado because local government needed permission to tell you the truth, burying your children because another school-shooting happened, being poisoned by contaminated milk, water or meat.
Remember, the USA is 40% migrants (if one excludes most white people), so that stabbing and raping is happening in your country too: Good luck with that.
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Well, Europe looks a lot less rubbly than it did in 1945. America is now full steam ahead trying to imitate that chapter of European history.
I'd rather deal with Hamas, at least it's an external enemy.