Passengers Sue Delta, United Over Windowless 'Window Seats' (courthousenews.com) 108
In a pair of class actions filed this week, passengers from each coast quibbled with United Airlines and Delta Air Lines' policies charging extra for window seats that are not actually beside windows, instead offering a view of a blank aircraft wall. From a report: "Delta indicated to the plaintiff and class members that the particular seats they chose had a 'window'; even though Delta knew full well they did not," the plaintiffs taking on Delta said in an 18-page complaint filed in federal court in New York, accusing the airline of false advertising and deceptive business practices.
Half of Delta's fleet of nearly 1,000 aircraft comprises Boeing 737s, Boeing 757s and Airbus A321s -- all of which have at least one wall-adjacent seat with no window, according to the plaintiffs. It's where vertical air conditioning riser ducts are located, making putting a window there impossible, the competing Alaska Airlines explains on its website. But unlike Alaska and others, the plaintiffs complain, Delta advertises the seats as having a window, offering them as a "window seat" option on its seat map during checkout.
Half of Delta's fleet of nearly 1,000 aircraft comprises Boeing 737s, Boeing 757s and Airbus A321s -- all of which have at least one wall-adjacent seat with no window, according to the plaintiffs. It's where vertical air conditioning riser ducts are located, making putting a window there impossible, the competing Alaska Airlines explains on its website. But unlike Alaska and others, the plaintiffs complain, Delta advertises the seats as having a window, offering them as a "window seat" option on its seat map during checkout.
Re:Pedantic (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sure they'll have to end up renaming it to "wall" seat, but few people are going to care.
The Window is the whole justification for an extra cost on that seat, and the reason people would pay more for it.
Its not like there's much to see out an airplane window anyways outside of takeoff and landing.
Well the fact is there are times during the flight when you do get to see more. Or you can stare out the window for hours on end; it doesn't matter if there is nothing really to see -- you have more options that are fun. You also get the extra light from outside, and control of the window shade.
Re: Pedantic (Score:2)
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Re: Pedantic (Score:5, Funny)
what, no? (Score:1)
The "whole justification" (well, 90% of it) is that you can lean up against the wall and there is nobody bumping into you or waking you up. Nothing like having some stupid bitch waking you up on a flight from Tokyo because she couldn't be bothered to take a piss before takeoff.
If this is your first flight in an airplane, sure, the window is the whole justification for the seat.
Air Canada's 787s (Score:5, Interesting)
The Window is the whole justification for an extra cost on that seat, and the reason people would pay more for it.
It will be interesting to see if Air Canada adopts such a strategy. They seem to have a policy on their 787 of locking all the windows to opaque for the entire flight when going transatlantic even when flying back to Canada which is a day flight. This means that there are no window seats and there is no way to see the incredible Icelandic and Greenlandic mountains and fjords if the weather is clear. Plus the lack of light on what is a day flight makes your jet lag much worse that it needs to be.
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They probably do it so people can sleep easier on the long flight. I know I'd rather have had a good nap on a long flight rather then engage in a few moments of sight seeing followed by empty ocean as without one I'm always exhausted on getting off the plane. If you're smart about the time of your flight you can help reduce jetlag with said nap as well.
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They probably do it so people can sleep easier on the long flight.
That's fine for the eastbound flight that happens at night but for the westbound flight this generally takes off in the morning and lands a few hours later in the same day local time or evening in the starting location. The best way to reduce jet lag is to expose yourself to the day/night conditions of the place you are going to. Heading east this means having the plane dark and heading west this means daylight. If someone still wants to sleep and need darkness to do so they can wear a sleep mask. There is
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The Window is the whole justification for an extra cost on that seat, and the reason people would pay more for it.
It will be interesting to see if Air Canada adopts such a strategy. They seem to have a policy on their 787 of locking all the windows to opaque for the entire flight when going transatlantic even when flying back to Canada which is a day flight. This means that there are no window seats and there is no way to see the incredible Icelandic and Greenlandic mountains and fjords if the weather is clear. Plus the lack of light on what is a day flight makes your jet lag much worse that it needs to be.
Yet another reason why I prefer not to fly on the 787 Squeezeliner.
I fly from South America back to Europe a few times a year and inevitably on the flight back you want the cabin dark because at some point the majority of passengers will be sleeping (or trying to) whilst the sun is up (especially from a hot and high airport like Bogota where the majority of long haul flights take off in the evening or early morning). The piezoelectric windows used by Boeing are never fully opaque, especially if you're on
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The Window is the whole justification for an extra cost on that seat, and the reason people would pay more for it.
For some, not others.
The real advantage of that seat is having one person to sit next to and, more importantly, being able to lean up against the wall to sleep without anyone asking you to get up so they can get out of the row. For these people, the window itself is just some random feature.
The middle seat just sucks all the way around.
The aisle seat sucks because you have get up any time what of the other two assholes in your row needs to go take a piss, and you've got to sit next to two people, one right
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The Window is the whole justification for an extra cost on that seat, and the reason people would pay more for it.
Definitely not for me. I get for the window seat so I only have people on one side of me and have a wall to lean against when sleeping. I could care less about the window part.
This is still false advertising though.
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The Window is the whole justification for an extra cost on that seat, and the reason people would pay more for it.
Some people like the window seat because they like to look out the window, they like to lean their heads against the wall, they like not having anyone climb over them to get to the restrooms, and (maybe the important reason) they like not having the middle seat.
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Re:Pedantic (Score:4, Insightful)
Some people just like having windows, stop dictating what people should like or you get the Neckbeard Seat.
-5 overly blunt but truthful
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How appropriate to give the guy who doen't want windows "the Neckbeard Seat."
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do you mean "windows" or "Windows"?
Is there a Geek Airlines? Might be big in the bay area.
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Agree with you statement, the problem is that seat cost more to be a window seat with no window. That is the problem.
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Agree with you statement, the problem is that seat cost more to be a window seat with no window. That is the problem.
Unless you are flying on the cheap tickets, the seat upgrades are for more space, not a window. Window is just a way airlines have said "by the airframe.'
Re:Pedantic (Score:4, Informative)
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They cover this in the lawsuit, Other airlines specifically state when a window seat has no view. The airlines also define what a window seat is including the fact it has a window. So yes, they are charging for a view then putting someone on a bulkhead with no view. Or at least some of premium is for said view.
I just checked the seat map on one of my upcoming flights and it only lists the type of seat, not window or aisle. I don’t recall if earlier ones said window or just the class; all I recall is the later but YMMV. Either way, IMHO this lawsuit is just BS.
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Good for you, you're probably on one of the airlines they're suing and even if you're not that doesnt change the fact that some airlines don't falsely advertise windows when there are no windows.
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They cover this in the lawsuit, Other airlines specifically state when a window seat has no view. The airlines also define what a window seat is including the fact it has a window. So yes, they are charging for a view then putting someone on a bulkhead with no view. Or at least some of premium is for said view.
Pretty sure that the T&Cs will state somewhere that a window is not guaranteed.
This just seems the kind of frivolous law suit that the US gets laughed at for. I'm pretty sure a British judge wouldn't even entertain this with a scowl of "you know exactly what they mean by 'window'" followed by a "didums, you were not traumatised by this". I think the US would be better if these kinds of things were vetted by a team of 7 year olds before being permitted to proceed.
Also given the wealth of informatio
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In the Air India crash, the sole survivor was the guy sitting next to the window exit, Vishwash Kumar Ramesh, who got the hell out of Dodge before the plane exploded in flames.
Rest assured I would waste no time myself should a need to open the exit become apparent. The flight attendants usually give you a little briefing on your responsibility pre-flight.
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Yeah, but they never let me practice! I've asked! They just say "No!".
Re: Pedantic (Score:2)
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The safety thing is just a bonus, I don't fly much so its a novelty when I do. It certainly does not scare me, statistically it is very safe.
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1) With my medial issues I would not be able to help with evacuations
2) I'm only 171cm (5.6) so I don't need the leg room.
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I'm not aware of any airlines charging more for a window seat - typically they charge more for *seat selection* - and you can pick a window seat specifically. Most people will do this so as to not get stuck in the middle seat.
Higher prices are typically done for seats with more legroom or at different tiers, but never have I seen seats on the same row be prices differently.
Re:Pedantic (Score:5, Interesting)
There is not much to see for you during the flight. Others might actually like to see clouds and the ground below or even just the wings. When I was young(er) I used to be one of these people before age made me prefer aisle seats.
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I liked windows on polar route flights for the possibility of seeing aurora. On one flight to Germany, there was a very good aurora display. I let 3 nearby people know about it. One young German woman got up to look out a door window, and thanked me. One middle aged German woman fulfilled stereotype and was annoyed. One elderly man reading from a Qur'an got up, looked out the door window for a long time, and thanked me profusely, with praise to this wonder bestowed by Allah.
Then there was the time on a
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I'm always trying to sleep when aurora displays might be visible in-flight, but thanks for the fantastic idea, should insomnia ever strike.
Flying westward, I was fortunate enough once to have had a window seat with a flight path that just kissed the southern tip of Iceland or Greenland (I'm not sure which). It was a brilliantly clear day, and you could see the flow lines of the glaciers and where they calve off into the ocean. It was one of the most beautiful natural scenes I have ever seen. Praise be to
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Then there was the time on a flight to Asia, where I noticed liquid streaming from an access port on the wing, and quietly notified crew. Our refueling stop in Incheon after this, ended up taking a couple of hours.
At least there wasn't a monster on the wing.
That time, anyway.
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The potential for "Monster on the wing" being the real value of a window seat after all.
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I've got a photo of the Scilly Isles [viewbug.com] which I took on a flight from Ireland to Spain, and the last time I flew west over the Atlantic I'm pretty sure I saw a large pod of whales.
Absolutely. (Score:2)
A) they are that stupid.
B) they are that kind of troll.
Either way, talk about logical fallacies roflmao.
Re:Pedantic (Score:4, Informative)
There is not much to see for you during the flight. Others might actually like to see clouds and the ground below or even just the wings. When I was young(er) I used to be one of these people before age made me prefer aisle seats.
TFA comments on several reasons people like a window seat:
"For many, it is a special experience to see the world from 30,000 feet, or to watch a descent into LaGuardia. Windows can captivate or distract an antsy child. Many people have a fear of flying, or get claustrophobic or motion sick on planes, and windows give them a greater level of comfort in an otherwise stressful environment. Others just want a burst of sunlight to brighten their days. Whatever the motive, had plaintiff and the class members known they were choosing a windowless seat, they would not have selected it at all, much less paid more money for it," the passengers say.
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There is not much to see for you during the flight. Others might actually like to see clouds and the ground below or even just the wings. When I was young(er) I used to be one of these people before age made me prefer aisle seats.
Sounds like you need new glasses.
There's loads to see, even from FL380. I used to love flying over the pacific islands, particularly from Singapore to the Philippines being able to see loads of islands in their entirety that you'd never be able to appreciate from sea level. Again for Europe to South America, worth it just to see the Caribbean.
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here is not much to see for you during the flight.
Thank YOU for informing ME that there is not much for ME to see.I had no idea I was doing it wrong the whole time. I WAS under the impression that I liked seeing erosion and other natural patterns. I also thought that I had enjoyed trying to reconcile what I am seeing with what maps indicate. I know, I know, clouds can be seen from the ground, so what interest could they possibly be when in aeroplane?
I guess I have been living my life in a way that is all weird and foreign to normal people. *shrug*
What shou
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Found the airline CEO!
Re:Pedantic (Score:4, Interesting)
Its not like there's much to see out an airplane window anyways outside of takeoff and landing. Aisle seat is better anyways. Aisle seat is better anyways. No need to get the whole row out of their seats when you need to use the restroom.
Spoken like a true aisle seater! LOL. I won't tell you to dislike the aisle seat, but I loathe them. I rarely ever need to get up during a flight, except for exceptionally long flights. I dislike dealing with all the people passing by, carts bumping into me, having to pass drinks to the rest of the row or have drinks passed over me, etc.. That said, if you've got a tiny bladder, PLEASE pick an aisle seat.
Also, I absolutely LOVE looking out the windows during flights. Clouds alone are freaking incredible! Granted, I don't fly all that often (1-2 times a year maybe), but nearly everyone spends more time under clouds than above them. And without clouds, the view of the land gives a whole new perspective and appreciation for the geography and land features.
I don't want to sell you on window seats. In fact, please remain an aisle lover. Leave the windows for people who appreciate them. Seat selection/availability already proves you are wrong that few people will care, and the class action makes it official.
Aisle gets you an bit more leg room if you place (Score:2)
Aisle gets you an bit more leg room if you place them in the row. Also can lean into it as well.
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Honestly, I wish I had that leg room - my knees aren't what they used to be. But IME, it's more trouble than it's worth to me. Too many other people going back and forth and forcing me to move and move back. I've also been hit in the elbow by the cart while I wasn't even trying to lean out - just had the tiniest bit of my elbow over the edge of the armrest. I'd rather have the view and be able to crash out against the wall.
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I'm short. Don't need leg room, need shoulder room.
That said, I like windows. I enjoy watching the cows getting bigger.
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And when you're leaning into the aisle and a flight crew member smashes your shoulder with the drink cart, be sure to enjoy that too.
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This is slashdot; that's the most contact he'll have with a woman all year!
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Aisle gets you an bit more leg room if you place them in the row.
I disagree. For me (192 cm / 6'4") sitting that skew for extended periods is a pain in the backside (literally) - butt and beyond. Not to mention all the people and catering trolleys bumping into your lower appendages. I also have broad shoulders, so impinging on seat neighbor's as well as aisle space, and getting bumped into more. I still like the aisle seat for being able to stand and walk as I please, even in the middle of the night. Not necessarily for bladder reasons, just to get limbs going.
Thankfully, domestic flights are short, and long haul expensive enough for me to not need them. The last couple of years I only flew overnighters due to work, and they always mandate the cheapest flights, and the seating is almost a skin-tight fit in the knee and lap area with the little table out (but still survivable). Maybe it's a blessing in disguise that they are struggling with finances and have cut travel to the absolute necessary (which excludes us mere underlings).
100% this
Re:Pedantic (Score:4, Interesting)
Some people have vertigo and dizziness due to a medical condition, or a side effect of a drug they're taking (antidepressants, for example). For these people, seeing the motion of the aircraft (via the window) helps avoid the nausea of motion sickness, and makes the difference between a pleasant trip and hours of nausea and possibly vomiting.
If Delta is going to lie about window seats, this means I can't fly Delta.
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If nobody cared, they wouldn't charge a premium for it. and there wouldn't be a class action from people who cared.
OBLIG: Literally *EVERYTHING* is in space!!! (Score:1)
"... but few people are going to care. Its not like there's much to see out an airplane window anyways outside of takeoff and landing."
EXCEPT: https://youtu.be/7Y3jRaUGg-A [youtu.be]
How about you take a long, tall drink from a cup of shit-the-fuck-up? Maybe that'll be a relevant clue-by-4 to illustrate to you, that you -- have your head up your ass.
Other people do not think like you do.
Go learn something and stop being an arrogant, narcissist shit.
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This might come as a galloping shock to you, but some people don't need to get up during some flights, so your "aisle seat is better anyways" is a personal opinion and has no place in any discussion of fact-based matters.
It also may surprise you that people like being able to lean against the "window" while sleeping for comfort, in which case it does not matter if there is an actual window there or not.
Please stop pretending that your preference is everyone's preference.
Slam dunk case (Score:5, Insightful)
1. “Window seat” is a generic term for any seat wall adjacent, and as different aircraft configurations exist, we use “window seat” to denote that seat, since in most cases there will be a window present.
2. In our terms and conditions, on page 711, paragraph 4, sub-paragraph 2, clause 1 sub C, it clearly states: “The term “window seat” has no relation to, or baring on, a window being present.”, before selecting the seat they were notified to read the terms and condition.
3. “Window seat” qualifies if a window is located within the sight line of the passenger, where sight line is defined in such a way that it applies overly broad to everyone, even the blind.
4. On the map of the seats, we did not show a window being present.
And so on, but honestly, if you don't have a window right next to the seat, it's not a window seat.
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Lifetime doesn't mean lifetime
Buy doesn't mean purchase
Own doesn't mean right of first sale anymore.
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Not the first time (Score:2)
That's hilarious, how do you sell a “window seat” that's not next to a window horizontally?
Probably the same way that they used to add on a "fuel surcharge" as if fuel was some optional extra that was not normally included in the ticket price. There is no depth to which this industry will not stoop in search of profit unless - or until - the law forbids it....and even then they may hire a small army of lawyers and give it a go anyway.
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5. The screen in the seat in front of you runs Windows. Thus it's a windows seat.
Going forward, all seats along the body of the aircraft will be bought from the newly created Window company thus they will all be Window(R) Seats. There are some other companies who did something similar and got away with it. I think one of them was one of the fake meat companies?
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This is nonsense, what if it is not a window but a door instead, should you be suing based on a technical name?
Is there a window in the door? Then that's fine.
Window seat is seat adjacent to a wall, aisle seat is a seat adjacent to a corridor.
FFS, do you hear yourself? Who the hell defines an aisle seat as next to a corridor? BTW, corridor definitions refer to passageways in buildings from which doors lead into rooms, political corridors, or strips of land. Aisle is not a synonym (https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/corridor). Do I need to tell you a window is not a wall?
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The work required to ensure that every single seat is marked 'window but not really' vs 'window' and then all of the plane schematics are adjusted according to every single airplane is insane and may not even be technically possible.
Not only is it very possible, it's also very easy. Could be as simple as a CSV file:
window, middle, aisle, aisle, middle, window,
wall, middle, aisle, aisle, middle, wall,
It could get knocked out in a few hours. If Delta uses the exact same layouts for each model of plane, than it should be even easier.
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Simple.
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What if the plane is replaced after the ticket purchase?
Notify customers and allow them to change seats. If it is too close to departure when the swap happens, automatically refund any extra paid for a window seat. Easy.
Who is supposed to maintain this csv file?
The airlines who already know the exact layouts for every model of plane and already own the plane.
There are tons of ticket resellers, are there APIs?
The airline just needs to publish the data similar to how they already do, just more accurately. Ticket resellers (of all types) shouldn't exist anyway.
nothing is ever easy
Anything can be easy when your smart enough to understand the problem and see the possible soluti
seatguru (Score:5, Interesting)
Always consult seatguru before booking...they have maps of the layouts for each plane for each carrier, and you can see the lemons....
Re:seatguru (Score:4, Informative)
Seatguru can be outdated and doesn't account for aircraft swaps. Sometimes airlines can change the airplane you are flying on a day or two out, which will mean a change in the seat layout. You might have a window seat with a window on a A321, and then they swap with a Boeing and you are SOL.
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Seatguru can be outdated and doesn't account for aircraft swaps. Sometimes airlines can change the airplane you are flying on a day or two out, which will mean a change in the seat layout. You might have a window seat with a window on a A321, and then they swap with a Boeing and you are SOL.
Aerolopa is a better resource these days, they tend to use the maps provided by airlines rather than just generic ones as well as having different maps for airliners that have multiple configurations.
Whilst last minute equipment changes happen, I find they're pretty rare. Usually an airline will try to replace one type with the same type as it messes about a whole bunch of stuff (not the least of which is the crew roster, change type and you'll need a new crew rated for that type).
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Always consult seatguru before booking...they have maps of the layouts for each plane for each carrier, and you can see the lemons....
Alas, SeatGuru is yet another site TripAdvisor bought up when it was hot and then eventually basically abandoned. The site has more or less been in maintenance mode for years and is no longer updated. They stopped updating their maps in 2020 (maybe earlier), same time they discontinued their mobile apps and blog section.
These days the most popular still-updated seat map site is arguably Aerolopa [aerolopa.com]. It does lack some of the features SeatGuru had that I really liked--in particular, SG had green/yellow/red
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Thanks for the update. I did use Seatguru fairly recently and the information on my particular flight was still valid as far as I can tell, but maybe I just got lucky. I did notice that it was transforming into a booking gateway to maximize revenue. I've bookmarked the new site and I will refer to it for the next trip.
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Perhaps the airline should have consulted it before advertising.
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Seat Guru has long been outdated and unreliable
AeroLopa is the true authority.
https://www.aerolopa.com/ [aerolopa.com]
Should pay massive penalty (Score:1)
I understand what happened. Clearly a profit motive without regard for the customer.
Delta should simply give them what they ask for and eat the cost.
If I were the judge, I would wait till Delta loses the case and come down extra hard on them. I would describe their lawyers as incompetent, and make it very clear this was an obvious case of fraud on the air line's part.
This is clearly a case of outright lying to the customer. Window Seat is not a 'name describing the seat near the plane skin'. It is a cl
hopefully big loss for airlines (Score:2)
I hope the airlines lose and have to spend billions of dollars.
The customers would only get a small amount and the lawyers for the plaintiffs get the other billions but at least the airlines would be out an amount that makes them think next time.
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Cheaper to just spend millions to redesign the web site what's selling seats. Instead of calling it window or aisle, just refer to it by the seat letter. A, B,C etc. It's up to the buyer to determine whether there's actually a window nearby. Or maybe you get two windows depending on how the row lines up with the windows.
Given the possibility in the future of lifting body aircraft with very wide cabins, just put up screens between groups of seats and put on some picturesque view. Get people used to that
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Only 2 things matter for the price difference:
1) Class obvious (economy/business/first class)
2) The time of boarding for your class. The later you board the cheaper it is, but also less chance on overhead bin space.
Why would you ever think (Score:3)
Why would anyone ever think that a seat marketed as a "window seat" would actually have a window? I mean, that's just bonkers. Reign yourself in, Citizen, and report to your scheduled Travel Enshittification Class as directed.
And now they will just be called Wall Seats. (Score:2)
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Doesn't always work [slashfilm.com].
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My wife got a windowless window seat (Score:2)
She always wants a window seat then immediately closes the shade because she doesn't like the light and it also makes her motion sick. We ended up in a funny row that was in between two windows and she was a little frustrated she couldn't close either window but in the end she fell asleep and it wasn't a big deal.
I have no preference on seating, I just want some leg room so I my knee doesn't lock up in a bad position.
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On some newer aircraft they have LCD window shades now. As well as the passenger being able to dim the, the cabin crew can override the setting. Very handy for when people are trying to sleep and someone decides to blast everyone with sunlight, or when they need them fully transparent for take-off and landing.
next sue restaurants for service fees force them t (Score:2)
next sue restaurants for service fees force them to name it AUTO TIP!
I sort of see both sides. (Score:3)
Since the seats don't line up perfectly anyway, lots of seats only have a window is the loosest sense. The occupant isn't in sole control of it, and sometimes craning of the neck is needed to use it as scenery. Sometimes the view is only a wing. So is it really a window seat?
My working definition of window seat is "not the middle or the aisle". I like to lean against the plane.
But for the lawsuit, what's the harm done? It's non-zero I suppose. If the goal is to change behaviour, okay then. Have them remove the term window seat from all the literature and call it a day. If it's about recompense, seems to me you'd need to show the price difference between the non-window window seat and its neighbour at the time of purchase to demonstrate and quantify harm.
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There wouldn't be an issue, if airlines didn't charge extra for a window seat. They used to call it a window seat, but since there was no fee, no harm no foul. But if you're going to charge for something, you need to deliver.
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But for the lawsuit, what's the harm done?
LOL, so fraud and deception mean NOTHING to you? WTF dude? People spent money to get what they want, and again, mother fuckers twisted that desire into profit for themselves at the expense of ordinary people. This is worse than someone selling a kit car as the original car. At least he kit car is drivable, so you get something for your money.
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Don't extract one snippet from its context please. I said it was non-zero. I'm simply saying it needs defining, which was the part you conveniently ignored.
In flying as in computing... (Score:2)
A Windows seat costs money, but often results in disappointment. The biggest difference is that you have a better chance being satisfied with the Delta experience than with the Microsoft experience.
Just let that sink in for a bit...
A better solution (Score:2)
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Sure it'd be safer, unless the blind replacement does not fly off mid-air like that door plug.
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Before landing the checklist includes seatbelts on, tables stowed, seats in the upright position, and window blinds open. The windows serve a safety function: in case of an evacuation, being able to see out helps in decision-making about which exits to use.
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Before landing the checklist includes seatbelts on, tables stowed, seats in the upright position, and window blinds open. The windows serve a safety function: in case of an evacuation, being able to see out helps in decision-making about which exits to use.
Also for emergency services on the ground to see in, in case there is a cabin fire (which is why lights are dimmed).
Advice (Score:2)
Look for one of those third party seat selector web sites ( www.seatguru.com for example) and check your selection before confirming. They publish details of aircraft cabin configurations and the shortcomings of various seats. Some of which the airlines would rather not admit to.
And forced seat upgrades (Score:2)
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More stupid, fat Americans.
Hey leave my family out of it!