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Space

With a New Soyuz Rocket, Russia Seeks to Break Its Ukrainian Dependency (arstechnica.com) 126

Russia's new Soyuz-5 rocket is set for a December debut as Moscow seeks to end reliance on Ukrainian technology and replace its aging Proton-M fleet. Ars Technica reports: According to the report, translated for Ars by Rob Mitchell, the debut launch of Soyuz-5 will mark the first of several demonstration flights, with full operational service not expected to begin until 2028. It will launch from the Baikonur spaceport in Kazakhstan. From an innovation standpoint, the Soyuz-5 vehicle does not stand out. It has been a decade in the making and is fully expendable, unlike a lot of newer medium-lift rockets coming online in the next several years. However, for Russia, this is an important advancement because it seeks to break some of the country's dependency on Ukraine for launch technology.
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With a New Soyuz Rocket, Russia Seeks to Break Its Ukrainian Dependency

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 26, 2025 @02:28AM (#65616046)
    ..Ukraine isn't part of Russia?
    • by chthon ( 580889 )

      Mod parent up!

    • by KiloByte ( 825081 ) on Tuesday August 26, 2025 @04:03AM (#65616130)

      Russia doesn't have any real technology of its own. For example, their space program was driven by Sergei Korolev and Yuri Kondratyuk plus their fellow Ukrainians, and when for propaganda purposes the first man in space had to be a Russian of a worker-peasant background, the spaceship was controlled remotely as Gagarin was deemed too unskilled to manage that. It's no surprise that when Ukraine regained independence, the space program stopped, with Russian efforts being about as successful as Luna 25 [wikipedia.org].

      Same with nuclear power. It was made by Ukrainian engineers, then when the Party assigned Russian overseers like Dyatlov, they did a whole string of procedures wrong, with a well-known result.

      The reason is cultural. For centuries, ethnic Russians had a deep hatred of science and culture, believing that nobles should never touch such endeavors (and serfs were outright slaves, with chattel slavery in core parts of the empire). Whenever there was some technology needed, the tsars instead invited foreigners, such as Dutchmen, Germans, etc. Their engineers were employed for every project such as railroads. Same with culture: even pieces made by ethnic Russians (like Tchaikovsky) were based on German folk tales and written in French, not Russian. By late 19th century there was ~6-8 million foreigners in Russia, a good part of them "Volga Germans", speaking German and following German customs. But whenever the tsar/chairman had a change of mind, there came expulsions: at the end of 19th century to America, in ~1920, in 1941, etc. The role of German engineers was taken by Ukrainians. Then, by 1990, the empire lost Ukraine, and results follow...

      • Racist at all?

        • ruzzkie are claiming they are of the same race, so no.

        • Yes, it's very racist. The poster may be hurting due to the war, but they are being racist.

          By the poster's logic, one could claim the Russians had no decent tyrants either, with Stalin and Beria being Georgian imports. But Ukrainian propagandists happily paint Stalin.as Russian and talk about his Holodomor. Pointless now. There was and is evil in Russians just as there was and is evil in Ukrainians, and in other ethnicities .The sad fact is none of us are angels, and never have been.

          People are by and.large

      • Just for the sake of technical correctness; paying for foreign expertise with imperial extraction is a technology. It's over in the pointy section of political science; and going by the number of people who end up dead or in exile after a failed implementation, it's not a trivial matter.

        One of the tricky bits, potentially one that they've had trouble with of late, is that pulling it off effectively usually means pretending that that isn't what you are doing, for the legitimacy and prestige, while keeping
      • by r1348 ( 2567295 )

        Look, I dislike Putin as much as the next guy, but that's a load of bullshit.

        • by KiloByte ( 825081 ) on Tuesday August 26, 2025 @05:28AM (#65616214)

          How come? The conclusion I draw might be slightly exaggerated, but the facts I listed are true:
          * Korolev, Kondratyuk and the vast majority of early space engineers ('50s and '60s) were Ukrainians, I haven't checked later periods
          * Gagarin was a peasant-born worker, an ethnic Russian; he wasn't very educated; internal controls had been installed in Vostok-1 but locked with a code that was to be told to Gagarin over radio only in the case of an emergency
          * after the fall of Soviet Union (and independence of Ukraine) the Russian space program has been rife with failures
          * especially prominent projects like Luna 25
          * most of nuclear engineers were Ukrainians
          * Dyatlov was an ethnic Russian
          * chattel slavery was predominant in Russian parts of the Tsardom, despite current Russian propaganda saying otherwise (see eg. "Dead Souls" by Gogol for an example that's widely known to Western readers)
          * railroads were made by German engineers
          * there were millions of Volga Germans in Russia
          * Germans suffered a number of expulsion events until almost all were gone from Russia

          The bits I just listed are those that are trivial to verify. Remaining ones require digging deeper and might rely on sources' opinions. But, that's enough to disprove that I'm spewing bullshit.

          • Ah, but the first railroads in Russia were built by Southern Americans from the US.
            Hence the 5 foot gauge still in use in Russia which was widely used south of the Mason Dixon line until 1887.

          • Your point was "Russia doesn't have any real technology of its own," and "ethnic Russians had a deep hatred of science and technology." To prove that conclusion, you need to show more than "Dyatlov was an ethnic Russian."

            To argue that point effectively, you'd need to pretend people like Dmitri Mendeleev and Alexander Popov didn't exist. But they do, so you're wrong.
          • by qaz123 ( 2841887 )
            This is the kind of propaganda that the Ukrainians have been fed since their independence in 1991. To summarize it: it says that everything good were made by Ukrainians in the USSR, and also trying to demean Russia. Some combination of delusion of grandeur combined with victim complex. And all that while Ukraine was doing worst among other former soviet states. They fucked up everything. They had aviation industry, space industry, shipbuilding industry -- they had inherited all that from the USSR. Nothing
      • Just like the US space program depended completely on captured nazi scientists...
        • Actually, not. The reliance of the US Space Program on german scientists has been quite exaggerated. In fact, they were still fiddling with the concept of vanes inside the exhaust nozzles while gimbaled engines were being developed by American engineers. Atlas and Titan were entirely American designs and the design of the spacecraft is mostly due to Max Faget. They had to overrule Von Braun a lot, he still believed fins were a fundamental part of a rocket stabilizazion system and left to his own device he's

      • by qaz123 ( 2841887 )
        Prime example of a Ukrainian nazi
      • by jalvarez13 ( 1321457 ) on Tuesday August 26, 2025 @08:55AM (#65616536)

        I believe you are missing two major developments that were led by the russians: First, the contributions of Konstantin Tsiolkovsky [wikipedia.org], whose works on rocket design and fuel mix ("Exploration of Outer Space by Means of Rocket Device", parts 1 and 2) laid the foundations of what we use today. Second, Aleksandr Lyapunov [wikipedia.org] who develped and advanced theory of stability in his doctoral thesis in 1892.

        According to my college professor, in the 1950's US engineers didn't bother to check russian publications on any subject, because they, just like you, thought that they were ignorant peasants that had nothing to contribute. Therefore they were completely ignorant about Lyapunov's developments. The thing is that Lyapunov's stability was a key advantage that allowed the soviets to beat the US in launching the first satellite into orbit. Only then, Kalman and others began to read their papers.

        By the way, the first International Federation of Automatic Control (IFAC) World Congress, was held in 1960 in Moscow.

        PS: I have no preference for any country whatsoever. On the contrary, I believe that excellence in science and engineering can and do arise in many places around the world. In this context, there is no point in dismissing the russians or any other country/place.

        PS2: The US response to the Sputnik crisis led to the creation of ARPA, which without any doubt has fueled the US hegemony for decades. Quite an achievement.

        • by qaz123 ( 2841887 )
          You are responding to Ukrainian propaganda. Don't take it seriously
          • Didn't realize that. Propaganda or not, I've found that the usual story about the space race leaves out those two crucial contributions of Tsiolkovsky and Lyapunov. I thought it was more of a cold war thing...
            • by qaz123 ( 2841887 )
              There is also Lev Pontryagin (1908-1988, born in Moscow). A Russian mathematician. Pontryagin's maximum principle is used for solution of topical problems of spacecraft motion control.
        • by Kartu ( 1490911 )
          >According to my college professor, in the 1950's US engineers didn't bother to check russian publications on any subject, because they, just like you, thought that they were ignorant peasants that had nothing to contribute. Therefore they were completely ignorant about Lyapunov's developments. The thing is that Lyapunov's stability was a key advantage that allowed the soviets to beat the US in launching the first satellite into orbit. Only then, Kalman and others began to read their papers.

          Oh dear, Ruzz
          • Did you decide to mention Lyapunov because Tsiolkovski was not ethnic Russian? Oh well. Anyway, what Lyapunov did was in a generic math field, not specific to space. He got noticed and published abroad. Hardly "unknown".

            Actually, as a control systems engineer, Lyapunov was the first one I thought of. You may not know this, but his works were not available in english at that time. Kalman had to read the french translation, as you can see in this 1960 paper titled Control system analysis and design via the “second method” of Lyapunov [byu.edu]

      • by cusco ( 717999 )

        Wow, what a tremendous pile of propaganda (and upvoted by people who don't know better). If you had asked Korolev what country he belonged to he would have said the Soviet Union. His father was Russian, his mother Belorussian, his native language was Russian, I'm not sure he ever bothered to learn the Ukrainian dialect at all.

    • ..Ukraine isn't part of Russia?

      Not yet! But I have it under good authority from he who shall not be questioned out of fear of polonium tainted tea that Ukraine just wants to be part of Russia and the only thing that's holding them back is that Russia hasn't liberated it from Nazis or something along those lines.

      • Well, Ukraine was named "Rus'" (latin: "Russia") for most of its existence, this means it belongs to the country that stole their name in 1721, right?

        • The Rus people and states were not limited to what is modern day Ukraine.

          Why are you blathering propaganda all over this this thread? Look- I'm sorry about what the Russians are doing to you guys. Seriously, I am. But fuck your soviet-era propaganda game. That shit is actively making the world a worse place.
          • A lot of the lands have been annexed by Muscovy over the years, but in 15th century when Muscovy was being formed, their possessions of Russian (as in: Rus') lands was limited to pretty much Novgorod -- which they promptly massacred.

            There's a lot of late 19th century and soviet-era propaganda indeed. Like, concepts such as "Greater Rus" and "Lesser Rus". Or even "Muscovy Rus" which is an all-out nonsense. On the other hand, they keep denigrating Ukraine by a campaign to rename Rus to "Kievan Rus", trying

            • A lot of the lands have been annexed by Muscovy over the years, but in 15th century when Muscovy was being formed, their possessions of Russian (as in: Rus') lands was limited to pretty much Novgorod -- which they promptly massacred.

              The Rus' people started in Novgorod. The Rurikids spread to Kyiv, and the conquest moved north from there.

              You are weaving quite the alternative history, here.

              There's a lot of late 19th century and soviet-era propaganda indeed. Like, concepts such as "Greater Rus" and "Lesser Rus". Or even "Muscovy Rus" which is an all-out nonsense. On the other hand, they keep denigrating Ukraine by a campaign to rename Rus to "Kievan Rus", trying to make people believe there were many countries that formed Rus. No entity of that name ever existed, it's a (greatly successful) propaganda campaign.

              The name Kievan Rus comes from Russian. It was not a name ever used by the Principality of Kyiv.

              And you should be sorry to Ukrainians, not us. But Poland, Finland, and pretty much half of Europe, have centuries of stuff to "thank" the bastards for.

              I assumed you were Ukrainian due to the bullshit Ukrainian origin myth you're peddling, which is just as stupid as the Russian origin myth.
              The Rus were Vikings that came over from Scandinavia and integrated with the Slavs.

              Putin puts hundreds of millions of dollars worth into spewing propaganda over all kinds of media. Without people pointing out the lies, the propaganda works.

              And the Ukrainians apparently hav

    • Well. Trump wants to give half of Ukraine to Putin, and win the Nobel peace prize. Even if Russia had invaded , and almost a million deaths have been recorded.
  • Russia... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bradley13 ( 1118935 ) on Tuesday August 26, 2025 @04:37AM (#65616174) Homepage

    Russia has always been dependent on other for much of their technology. However, they have immense mineral wealth that - with clever leadership - could be leveraged to make them wealthy and to build up their industry and technology.

    Unfortunately, the past 15 years or so, it has become apparent that there is some inner clique of geezers who dream of the glory days of the USSR. Rather than investing their wealth, they are trying to retake the territories that used to be part of the USSR. The attack on the Ukraine was completely, absolutely idiotic. They have wasted a generation and impoverished themselves. Sure, "quantity has a quality all its own", so they will eventually "win" with a Pyrrhic victory. In doing so, they will have set Russia back by decades.

    The absolutely fascinating question will come in a few years: Russia's next obvious targets are the Baltic countries. They are tiny, and geographically easy to attack. They are also full NATO members. Will Russia attack? Will NATO really defend?

    • The absolutely fascinating question will come in a few years: Russia's next obvious targets are the Baltic countries. They are tiny, and geographically easy to attack. They are also full NATO members. Will Russia attack? Will NATO really defend?

      NATO is planning war against Russia right now in Ukraine. They've been talking about it using "security guarantees" and "coalition of willing" as code words, but there's a high probability they will move soon.

      Also, Ukraine has been putting the hurt on Russia recently, even pushing back in places. Russia seems to have culminated offensively. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

      • Is it NATO or just Trump who is saying that? I think those words are clear cut example of how Trump and his team has no clue (and never did) of any idea how to "end" the war because as soon as your say "Security Guarantee" to Russia you are implying "we will go to war" so it's a silly thing to say. This isn't Kuwait after we trounced Iraw into dust in 1991, this is a nuclear armed nation still in an active ground war.

        I swear they use that term because it sounds good and there is almost nothing else they c

        • Is it NATO or just Trump who is saying that?

          Do a search for "security guarantee ukraine" or "coalition of the willing ukraine" and you will have your answer.

          This isn't Kuwait after we trounced Iraw into dust in 1991, this is a nuclear armed nation still in an active ground war.

          Russia will be trounced like Iraq, and nuclear weapons are something we will have to deal with.

          The Trump strategy on this war now is...

          Read a newspaper, stop saying ignorant things.

          • Sure,

            https://www.reuters.com/world/... [reuters.com]

            "Russia's Foreign Ministry has ruled out the deployment of troops from NATO countries to help secure a peace deal."

            Sounds a lot like Trump is saying what he feels like and poor Rutte is trying to balance this idea while keeping NATO afloat during Trump.

            You can call me ignorant but the idea that a "security guarantee" is a workable solution is ignorant in itself. I guess we will see but if I am Russia why do I agree to this when I can keep pushing the clock back? It's o

        • by tragedy ( 27079 )

          The Trump strategy on this war now is "lay low and wait for the whole thing to blow over"

          Add "Claim that the end of the war was your doing and all part of your brilliant plan when it does end. Then demand your Nobel Peace Prize and either throw a tantrum when you don't get one or use something that's plainly blackmail to, ugh, actually get one." to the end and I think you'll just about have it.

      • by skam240 ( 789197 )

        NATO is planning war against Russia right now in Ukraine. They've been talking about it using "security guarantees" and "coalition of willing" as code words, but there's a high probability they will move soon.

        Don't get me wrong, I see the same things you are seeing, I just have zero idea how you're getting to your conclusion. The idea that Trump would go in on a war against Russia is absurd and Europe isn't going to go on its own with something like that. All this talk about security guarantees is about Trump's current diplomatic push and trying to prevent a third invasion of Ukraine if it's successful, it has nothing to do with prepping for a soon to happen NATO involvement in this current war. Notice all of th

        • Did you understand what happened in the white house meeting with Trump, Zelensky and European leaders? Trump is looking for a way to coerce Putin into negotiating.
    • The absolutely fascinating question will come in a few years: Russia's next obvious targets are the Baltic countries. They are tiny, and geographically easy to attack. They are also full NATO members. Will Russia attack? Will NATO really defend?

      No and Yes. There was a reason they did not get invaded and Ukraine did; because they are in NATO.

      Almost like the excuse of NATO expansion isn't true and countries clamoring to get into NATO knew they had good reason to do so.

  • The distance from Ukraine to Baikonur is less than 3000 km. The latter is the range of the new Ukrainian cruise missile Flamingo.
    • Sure, but it's a subsonic cruise missile.
      Fun for shooting at people with no air defenses. Not particularly useful for shooting at even crumbling Soviet states with shit tons of AA all over the place.
    • by Kartu ( 1490911 )
      Baikonur is in... Borat's land.
  • ... long distance drones incoming to Bajconur.

  • ... they crashed a Progress M-34 into Mir, permanently decommissioning the Spektr module. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] - they tried to replace the expensive partly-Ukrainian Kurs rendezvous system with an all-Russian equivalent, and it didn't turn out so well.
    • Kurs was not Ukrainian. It was manufactured in the Ukrainian SSR, because that's how empires work- you throw your manufacturing away from the cosmopolitan areas.

      Calling Kurs Ukrainian is like calling BMW South Carolinian.
      • by larwe ( 858929 )

        It was manufactured in the Ukrainian SSR

        Post-breakup, Russia continued to make the Kurs antenna array while - VERY reluctantly - buying the rest of the system from Ukraine. The fact that they couldn't just grab the blueprints, tool up and make the guts in the Russian Federation makes Kurs as Ukrainian as it needs to be to deserve the name. In any case, a significant slice of Russia's scientists and engineers originated in Ukraine.

        • Poppycock- those blueprints were made in Russia.
          The Ukraine Radio Factory certainly had the tooling, but the same could be said of the US if it were to break up.
          Our space program is split between California, Alabama, Texas, and Florida.

          If Texas were to secede, would we rebuild a new Johnson Space Center, or continue to lease mission control functionality from it.

          Ukraine Radio Factory exists in Ukraine because that's where it was prudent to send the manufacturing work. It could have just as easily been
          • by larwe ( 858929 )

            Anyone claiming that "Ukrainians are Peasants, and Russians aren't", or the reverse is just being a racist

            There is nothing remotely racist about saying "If you cut off your left arm, you cannot expect your right foot to take over its functions".

            • It is if you're trying to imply that your left arm, in this instance, is a metaphor for a group of people inferior to your right foot.
              You see, Ukraine and Russia are composed of people. If you're trying to say that Ukrainians are a left arm, and Russians are a right foot- then ya, that actually is pretty fucking racist.

              Beyond that, it's also stupid, since any narrative you can concoct regarding Russian or Ukrainian scientific supremacy, I can challenge.

              There is only one real truth- and that's that scie
              • by larwe ( 858929 )
                They were body parts picked at random. Left ear and right eye? Regardless, to the troll-file with you.
                • To the English class for you.

                  I'm well aware they were chosen at random.
                  The problem was not in the 2 you chose, but that you chose any at all.
  • by mspohr ( 589790 ) on Tuesday August 26, 2025 @11:10AM (#65616794)

    I don't see the problem here. AFAIK Ukraine keeps sending rockets to Russia. Every day lots of different kinds of rockets.
    Russia doesn't seem to be able to catch these rockets and they just explode.
    Russia just needs a better way to capture these rockets.

  • I had thought Russia was planning to move most rocket launches to the Vostochny Cosmodrome which is fully within Russian territory (moving mostly to avoid depending on the lease in Kazakhstan). A new launch platform was the time to move.

Don't get suckered in by the comments -- they can be terribly misleading. Debug only code. -- Dave Storer

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