Calling Boss a Dickhead Was Not a Sackable Offense, Tribunal Rules (theguardian.com) 105
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: Managers and supervisors brace yourselves: calling the boss a dickhead is not necessarily a sackable offense, a tribunal has ruled. The ruling came in the case of an office manager who was sacked on the spot when -- during a row -- she called her manager and another director dickheads. Kerrie Herbert has been awarded almost 30,000 pounds in compensation and legal costs after an employment tribunal found she had been unfairly dismissed.
The employment judge Sonia Boyes ruled that the scaffolding and brickwork company she worked for had not "acted reasonably in all the circumstances in treating [her] conduct as a sufficient reason to dismiss her." "She made a one-off comment to her line manager about him and a director of the business," Boyes said. "The comment was made during a heated meeting. "Whilst her comment was not acceptable, there is no suggestion that she had made such comments previously. Further ... this one-off comment did not amount to gross misconduct or misconduct so serious to justify summary dismissal." [...]
Boyes found that Herbert was summarily fired because of her use of the word "dickheads" and ruled that the company had failed to follow proper disciplinary procedures. She concluded that calling her bosses dickheads was not sufficient to fire Herbert and ordered the firm to pay 15,042.81 pounds in compensation. In her latest judgment she also ruled it had to pay 14,087 pounds towards her legal fees. "If it was anyone else in this position they would have walked years ago due to the goings-on in the office, but it is only because of you two dickheads that I stayed," said Herbert.
Swannell retorted: "Don't call me a fucking dickhead or my wife. That's it, you're sacked. Pack your kit and fuck off."
The employment judge Sonia Boyes ruled that the scaffolding and brickwork company she worked for had not "acted reasonably in all the circumstances in treating [her] conduct as a sufficient reason to dismiss her." "She made a one-off comment to her line manager about him and a director of the business," Boyes said. "The comment was made during a heated meeting. "Whilst her comment was not acceptable, there is no suggestion that she had made such comments previously. Further ... this one-off comment did not amount to gross misconduct or misconduct so serious to justify summary dismissal." [...]
Boyes found that Herbert was summarily fired because of her use of the word "dickheads" and ruled that the company had failed to follow proper disciplinary procedures. She concluded that calling her bosses dickheads was not sufficient to fire Herbert and ordered the firm to pay 15,042.81 pounds in compensation. In her latest judgment she also ruled it had to pay 14,087 pounds towards her legal fees. "If it was anyone else in this position they would have walked years ago due to the goings-on in the office, but it is only because of you two dickheads that I stayed," said Herbert.
Swannell retorted: "Don't call me a fucking dickhead or my wife. That's it, you're sacked. Pack your kit and fuck off."
Just A Hunch (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest her statement was fair and accurate.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest her statement was fair and accurate.
I think she actually proved it to be fair and accurate.
Re:Just A Hunch (Score:5, Funny)
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So, if the mgr retorted and called her a CUNT that would be ok too.....right?
Employee relationship to employer is different from employer relationship to employee - you do realize that, right?
Re: Just A Hunch (Score:2)
Re: Just A Hunch (Score:2)
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A smart manager would say, "That's it, you're on leave for a week until you've cooled off. See you next Tuesday." Disciplinary leave without pay to make sure it won't happen again, still manage to get in a common acronym.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest her statement was fair and accurate.
Irrelevant. I call my manager a cunt to his face at least once every in every 10 minutes of interaction I have with him. If I didn't, he'd probably get worried something was wrong. Whether or not this woman is telling the truth about her working conditions, any boss who fires someone for something as trivial as telling them they are a dickhead deserves a quick sharp boot in the hole.
Re:Just A Hunch (Score:4, Funny)
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I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest her statement was fair and accurate.
Irrelevant. I call my manager a cunt to his face at least once every in every 10 minutes of interaction I have with him. If I didn't, he'd probably get worried something was wrong. Whether or not this woman is telling the truth about her working conditions, any boss who fires someone for something as trivial as telling them they are a dickhead deserves a quick sharp boot in the hole.
What if she tells customers that he is a dickhead? Or as noted - is the opposite true? She can be called a cunt?
Whatever the legalities, it is crude, low class and should never be used in a professional environment. Apparently in GB, this is acceptable office talk, although perhaps only in one direction, and definitely not against a particular class. Not a good precedence.
I suspect it is different in the US.
Re: Just A Hunch (Score:2)
Most people in the U.S. work under at-will employment. You can be fired for pretty much anything.
If you like the wrong sports team. If you wear a yellow shirt. If you don't supplicate yourself up on entering the manager's office. If you support Elon Musk.
All fireable offenses.
There are a small set of protected classes over which you cannot be fired. Gender. Age (old only). Race. Religion. Sexual orientation. Familial status. Disability or other medical condition. I think that list is exhaustive, but I might
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Most people in the U.S. work under at-will employment. You can be fired for pretty much anything.
If you like the wrong sports team. If you wear a yellow shirt. If you don't supplicate yourself up on entering the manager's office. If you support Elon Musk.
Of if they don't like the way you breathe. In practice however, few if any employers will incur the training costs for hiring a new employee just because of someone doing any of the above. Especially if there is a security clearance involved. Background checks at that level are expensive. Bring value added and a good attitude, and your chances of being terminated are really reduced.
Re: Just A Hunch (Score:2)
Apparently in GB, this is acceptable office talk, although perhaps only in one direction, and definitely not against a particular class.
It's not. This was a small building/scaffolding firm, not some big corporate or government office.
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I got fired once for indirectly calling the director of HR a scumbag who was trying to destroy the company. He absolutely was a scumbag taking actions that would harm the company, but, sadly, it was still within his rights and legitimate authority to fire me.
I called him out for promoting racism, sexism and socialism during p
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I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest her statement was fair and accurate.
Trigger alert. nasty language alert. Conversely does this mean she cannot sue if the boss calls her an insufferable fucking cunt?
And if I work for someone can call them a stupid cocksucker, asshole faggot pedophile, they cannot punish me? Great Britain is a fascinating place.
Re: Just A Hunch (Score:2)
That's pretty much how it works in the U.S., too, if you work under a union (usually).
Re: Just A Hunch (Score:4)
That's pretty much how it works in the U.S., too, if you work under a union (usually).
I've found that treating people with respect tends to garner respect in return. Which is why I tell people under me to treat the unionized custodian the same as the highly placed. Not that all do it. It even has it's perks. Like my old office was spotless.
Of course, you need to know how to talk to your "audience" My favorite example is outside of work. New gas lines were being installe in our neighborhood. My sidewalks were getting a little grubby. I went out to chat with them - they had an awesome tiny backhoe, so I was interested anyhow. We chatted for a bit, and I asked if they were going to be putting in new sidewalks. They said sometimes if needed, they'd replace a slab here or there. I told them I wouldn't bitch if they replaced a few in front of my house.
Fast forward a couple weeks, and they put in an entire new sidewalk.
I also have one rule that is not negotiable. Congratulate in front of everyone, and kick someone's ass in private. Always be nice. It's not only respectful, but has perks as well.
Re: Just A Hunch (Score:2)
And if I work for someone can call them a stupid cocksucker, asshole faggot pedophile, they cannot punish me?
Of course they can, but unless they're still on probation that punishment has to be more orderly than sacking you on the spot. Someone who has been working there for years can at least expect a final warning.
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And if I work for someone can call them a stupid cocksucker, asshole faggot pedophile, they cannot punish me?
Of course they can, but unless they're still on probation that punishment has to be more orderly than sacking you on the spot. Someone who has been working there for years can at least expect a final warning.
The warning would come upon hiring. Treat all people respectfully. I could tolerate a little - people get spun up on occasion, but if someone working for me called me a dickhead - and they weren't in a circle of friends - I'd be rather annoyed.
Note: a group of scientists and engineers can in their discourse get pretty spicy with humorous insulting. But they are in the friends group.
As for the young lady who now knows she is perfectly fine calling her boss a dickhead, well, she might not want to get a
Re: Just A Hunch (Score:2)
The warning would come upon hiring. Treat all people respectfully. I could tolerate a little - people get spun up on occasion, but if someone working for me called me a dickhead - and they weren't in a circle of friends - I'd be rather annoyed.
There's a big distance between annoyance and instant dismissal though isn't there?
As for the young lady who now knows she is perfectly fine calling her boss a dickhead, well, she might not want to get a reference from them.
There's no indication how young the woman was but at the that she was sacked she had worked there for four years. If anyone has learned a lesson here it's the employer: if you want to sack someone do the paperwork first.
And in today's world, a prospective employer can find out who she worked for, call them and find out she it litigious and disrespectful.
Not in the UK they can't. There are limits on what a previous employer can divulge to a third party; most references boil down to âwould you employ this person again?'. You certainly couldn't tell the new
Important bit seems to be missing. (Score:1)
"If it was anyone else in this position they would have walked years ago due to the goings-on in the office, but it is only because of you two dickheads that I stayed," said Herbert.
Swannell retorted: "Don't call me a fucking dickhead or my wife. That's it, you're sacked. Pack your kit and fuck off."
Wife?
At any rate, somebody's an oversensitive ninny if being called a dickhead, or even having their wife / director (insert joke here) called a dickhead, seems worthy of that retort. Hells, we call each other that on the job all the time and we aren't even in a construction oriented company. What I remember working construction jobs with gramps, dickhead would have been seen as an upgrade over what most of the management got called to their faces by the crews.
At worst, that's a trip to HR and a slap on the
Re:Important bit seems to be missing. (Score:5, Interesting)
Many years ago when I owned my own company, a sales person told the sales director to fuck off. The sales director asked me to fire the sales person and I refused. The sales director ended up parting a few months later and the sales person stayed on as a great employee for many years.
But I did tell the sales person not to use that sort of language in a professional setting again.
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Many years ago when I owned my own company, a sales person told the sales director to fuck off. The sales director asked me to fire the sales person and I refused. The sales director ended up parting a few months later and the sales person stayed on as a great employee for many years.
But I did tell the sales person not to use that sort of language in a professional setting again.
That's my main point. Calling the boss a dickead, even if you are a protected class, is seriously unprofessional.
Then again, I get told I am an asshole all the time. By colleagues and my wife, who are on the friends list. It's the difference between them seeing me and saying "how ya doin Olsoc you old asshole!", and some rando customer or employee I don't know doing that. Sometimes deserved, sometimes not. And this never ever happens in meetings.
Similar to how in meetings, I'd call the director "Docto
Re:Important bit seems to be missing. (Score:5, Insightful)
Wife?
Sounds like a smallish firm or a sole trader who employs his wife for... reasons.
At any rate, somebody's an oversensitive ninny if being called a dickhead, or even having their wife / director (insert joke here) called a dickhead, seems worthy of that retort. Hells, we call each other that on the job all the time and we aren't even in a construction oriented company. What I remember working construction jobs with gramps, dickhead would have been seen as an upgrade over what most of the management got called to their faces by the crews.
I'm not so sure myself. If I called the owner of my workplace a dickhead I wouldn't really expect to keep my job. This lady seems to be lucky that it was done in the heat of the moment. I guarantee she'll end up getting a different job though; no-one wants to work in that sort of environment and she's just won a nice settlement to tide her over until she finds new employment.
At worst, that's a trip to HR and a slap on the wrist. Or just respond with a name yourself and move on with your day. No need to get all wound up over it.
These sorts of firms don't usually have HR, certainly not done in-house. It's possible they even contract out for their payroll. She really is lucky that the owner tried to sack her after only one incident; if he'd waited until there was a pattern of bad behaviour from the claimant she'd have been out on her arse with no legal recourse. I checked the company's most recent (2022) filing with Companies House [service.gov.uk] and they reported net assets of around £90k. This is not a small loss for them.
Context matters (Score:4, Interesting)
In the past I've worked for small companies where this sort of thing would be entirely normal. I ran one with two partners, we had some vivid arguments at various times.
Hell, a really long time ago I worked in a place where fist fights were relatively normal, if they didn't go "too far". (One summer of that was more than enough.)
More generally, employers who demand "respect" need to get a dog, or maybe therapy. You are paying fee-for-service unless otherwise negotiated, and ego-stroking was not specified in the job duties. I see this more in first-time business owners who have too much of their identity wrapped up in being a "business owner", but lots of broken people prop their egos up with their jobs.
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I would absolutely expect to be fired if I called someone a dickhead.
Sounds like you live in an at-will employment state without any rights of your own. I expect 100% to get a formal written warning - something that would be required in most of the western world before firing someone for calling you names.
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You can call anyone a dickhead if you do it in the right setting and use some redirection. saying things like "that is a bit of a dickhead move", "people might call you a dickhead if you do that", or even more directly "pardon my language, mind if i call you a dickhead for that?", or my favorite "we used to have a coworker who would have shouted `dickhead!` at you for that" won't remotely get you fired.
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I currently work for a large public company. I would absolutely expect to be fired if I called someone a dickhead.
I'd expect to get severely chewed out first, and only fired after repeat offenses. Ending someone's career in haste is hardly professional.
But then, I was never much of a socialite. I've never been good at resolving what is expected to happen and what should happen.
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who employs his wife for... reasons
Actually it sounds very much like any small family operated business where the spouses seem to be co-directors.
If I called the owner of my workplace a dickhead I wouldn't really expect to keep my job.
Context matters, as does past behaviours, as do disciplinary procedures. This didn't happen in the United States of Freedom to Fuck Employees In At Will States. In most of the world you would be required to issue a written warning for a first offence before firing someone. And even then if it is proven that it happened in the midst of a heated debate that the employing party contributed to escalati
Fuck the tribunal. Full speed ahead (Score:2)
Roughly 30,000 pounds? Totally worth it to get rid of her permanently.
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Roughly 30,000 pounds? Totally worth it to get rid of her permanently.
Hard nosed managers don't care about your delicate snowflake like fee fees because they are tough rugged individualists, ..... buuuuut if you crush their delicate snowflake like fee fees by calling them dickheads you'll get fired (LoL). Did your fee fees get crushed in solidarity with these dickheads?
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Roughly 30,000 pounds? Totally worth it to get rid of her permanently.
Their other employees would probably be quite happy if they make it like a regular thing. I expect they will be called dickheads quite regularly now.
Re:Fuck the tribunal. Full speed ahead (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, its the USA which is the jerk when it comes to employment law. I'll take the "Just Cause" employment standard over "Employment At Will" anyday.
Only the C-level folks, residents of Montana, and union employees get Just Cause in the united states. The rest of us are stuck with Employment At will.
Re:Fuck the tribunal. Full speed ahead (Score:4, Informative)
Roughly 30,000 pounds? Totally worth it to get rid of her permanently.
Did they get rid of her permanently though, or do they now have to keep her on the payroll until she does something actionable?
Because now any attempt to dismiss her will result in further investigation, this time for retaliation. If they fire her and she can document that her transgressions were no worse than anyone else's, they'll just end up in front of this regulatory body again, and probably end up owing her more money, again.
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Doubly so when you consider she also insulted husband and wife.
Can you imagine being a husband who does not step in to protect his wife from this sort of face to face abuse while you're present? Can you imagine family life in the wake of not doing that?
This is divorce territory as wife's subconscious will inherently correctly conclude "he can't protect me even against some dumb cunt at work who's his subordinate. He can't even protect himself from that subordinate. He's utterly weak and pathetic, intolerabl
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"This is divorce territory as wife's subconscious will inherently correctly conclude "he can't protect me even against some dumb cunt at work who's his subordinate. He can't even protect himself from that subordinate. He's utterly weak and pathetic, intolerable features in a husband, part ways ASAP"."
This is exactly why "senior leadership" shouldn't be bedding each other. It's a business, their relationship has no place there.
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It's actually the exact opposite. We're evolved to handle life as a family unit. That includes business. This goes back all the way to hunter-gatherers and our evolutionary state is still there. We haven't even adapted properly to farming yet.
One of the big reasons for rate of family failures in modern Western society is that work life is so separate from private family life. Instead of husband and wife managing the family business together, which aligns their interests further and cements the marriage, hus
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The tribunal does not make the rules.
There was an employment contract, which clearly stated the conditions under which it could be terminated.
The tribunal found that the dickheads did not have grounds, according to the contract.
How that took £15k to determine is a mystery.
Unintended consequences (Score:1)
So if some underling calls Trump a dickhead, he can't fire them... otherwise the dreaded UK will have more freedom of expression than the USA. And that cannot be allowed.
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There's no freedom of expression on the UK.
They imprison people by hundreds for factually correct statements on social media and elsewhere..
But they do have freedom to remain employed where they are not wanted. Awesome! /s
Re: Unintended consequences (Score:1)
They have a king and they put his face on their money. What do you expect from medievalists?
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There's no freedom of expression on the UK.
There is now - just start all your posts with "Dear Boss, I'd just like to say...."
Re:Unintended consequences (Score:4, Interesting)
There's no protection from this in the United States due to employment-at-will.
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Isn't that a state-level decision?
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For it to be state level, that means there's no federal protection.
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Plenty of freedom of expression here and nobody goes to prison for factually correct statements unless they have breached a court order not to reveal protected information.
However, lying about the above is a great way to make people scared, and scared people are more easy to manipulate. It's a great way to build a power base and get donations. Sorry that someone you trusted for factual information did that to you.
Re:Unintended consequences (Score:4, Informative)
There is freedom of expression in the UK.
It's a right under the European Convention on Human Rights, of which the UK is a signatory.
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That isn't true either.
To be illegal there has to be either intent to stir up hatred on the basis of race/gender/orientation etc., or it can be shown that a reasonable person would have foreseen that it would lead to such and it in fact did. It's a high bar.
There have been issues with the police being overzealous, but that's a problem with the police, not the law. It's a big problem, don't misunderstand me, but it's also one that most countries seem to struggle with at various times.
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There is freedom of expression in the UK.
It's a right under the European Convention on Human Rights, of which the UK is a signatory.
You've just charged a comedian with a criminal offense [cnn.com] because his Tweet might hurt feelings. Any freedom of expression Brits had is meaningless empty symbolism at this point.
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That's not accurate. Graham Linehan has been charged with harassment and criminal damage.
He posted a large number of tweets harassing a 17 year old girl, with which she did not engage. He also filmed her with his mobile phone. The trial is to determine if the content of the tweets and his behaviour overall amounts to harassment. It's the same as someone using a phone to harass, or even snail mail. Under UK law that can include things like continuing to demand payment for debts that a court has ruled are not
Re: Unintended consequences (Score:2)
Just one more thing: the bit about the police being armed is a red herring. While police in the UK are not normally armed, the ones at major train stations and airports are.
Some people stirring the pot in the UK neglect to mention this fact. Readers in the US might not see the significance of people pointing out that the police were armed.
Re:Unintended consequences (Score:4, Funny)
So if some underling calls Trump a dickhead
Seems a bit redundant doesn't it? I mean, that'd be like pointing out that water is wet.
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So if some underling calls Trump a dickhead, he can't fire them...
In his case, it might be deemed 'flattery'.
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Keep your system and talk all the shit you want. I'll take double the pay.
Boss take (Score:1, Informative)
I don't care what you call me as long as you justify the ROI.
Is a dickhead worse than a cunt? (Score:5, Funny)
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Aren't most of us at least partially one or the other?
Re:Is a dickhead worse than a cunt? (Score:5, Insightful)
The ironic thing is that the phrase "it is only because of you two dickheads that I stayed" is actually a term of endearment. Most British people (likelihood increasing with latitude) would interpret that as "You can both be irritating idiots at times, but despite that I still like you both and that is why I stayed"
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The ironic thing is that the phrase "it is only because of you two dickheads that I stayed" is actually a term of endearment. Most British people (likelihood increasing with latitude) would interpret that as "You can both be irritating idiots at times, but despite that I still like you both and that is why I stayed"
That's the funniest part of this whole situation. Plenty of jobs I've worked the boss would have tried to hug me for such a statement. Or at least rubbed my head affectionately.
I'm more surprised... (Score:3)
... by the fact that these British folks were using what I thought were Americanisms.
Regardless, there seemed to be plenty of unprofessionalism to go around in that meeting.
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Not me, personally...
What's the tech angle here (Score:3, Funny)
Not a pejorative (Score:3)
Calling someone a "dickhead" is merely pointing out that you find someone's behaviour disagreeable.
Is it bad language? Sure, but that is acceptable in some environments more than others.
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Calling someone a "dickhead" is merely pointing out that you find someone's behaviour disagreeable.
Is it bad language? Sure, but that is acceptable in some environments more than others.
Back when I did contract work, I did a stint with the NYPD. Compared to what everyone there usually called each other, "dickhead" would be some kind of term of endearment. Or maybe it'd be taken ironically and be considered really offensive.
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Back in the 90s when they first showed the movie Robocop on British TV, they censored all the swearing. Apparently it was considered that shocking back then. In one scene Dick Jones mentions that once he called the head of the company "dickhead".
They dubbed it to "airhead".
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Calling someone a "dickhead" is merely pointing out that you find someone's behaviour disagreeable.
Is it bad language? Sure, but that is acceptable in some environments more than others.
Calling your superiors in the workplace a vulgar name is a fire-able offense pretty much any place else. It's not just the word, but also the fact that using it is a type of insubordination. If your boss is a jerk, then you need to find work elsewhere. But every workplace has discipline and conduct standards. You simply can't let subordinates openly insult their chain of command or you won't have much command.
Good, but... (Score:1, Troll)
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Are
Governing
America
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I think you mean, "Morans [cubsinsider.com]."
But putting your head near my dick... (Score:1)
why is this on slashdot? (Score:1)
Britain (Score:3)
>"Managers and supervisors brace yourselves: calling the boss a dickhead is not necessarily a sackable offense, a tribunal has ruled."
Well, that might be the case in Britain, but is not the case in most places in the USA, thankfully. Employment is a voluntary arrangement and if I had an employee saying that to one of my managers or me, it would very likely lead to some type of disciplinary action. Not saying the person would be fired, it depends on employment record, context and such.
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Yeah we don't use the USA at-will employment which creates huge power disparities any kind of meaningful standard on which to model employment contracts in the west. This isn't a Britain thing. It's a common sense case which would apply to the employment structure in most of the western world.
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That's a very generous (or gaslighting) way of describing "employment at will" which is a fancy way of saying you have zero protections against abusive management, and can be fired for any reason or no reason at all. In a country where your job is tied heavily to your ability to access healthcare, this creates a huge amount of fear and precariousness for a lot of people.
very sad
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>"which is a fancy way of saying you have zero protections against abusive management"
You can leave. There are also often union options.
>"and can be fired for any reason or no reason at all."
Pretty much, yes. Barring a contract, if you hire someone to work on your house and you don't like them for most any reason, you can terminate that arrangement. Barring a contract, if they don't like the way they are treated, they can leave as well. It is part of the concept of freedom- for both the employed a
Swearing at a construction company? (Score:2)
I'm sure that was a milder choice of words than is usually spoken at that company
I had a UK manager explain that when he had bad news for his boss, he had to carry a plastic model of the poo emojii when he delivered it. Childish and boorish. Him for talking about it, worse for his boss(s).
We are led by donkeys.
Of course, none of this applies in the USA (Score:2)
Due to the doctrine of employment at will, You can be fired for any reason, just as long as it isn't an illegal reason.
It is set up so managers have pretty much unfettered firing power. The reason by this is often stated that "Managers should be able to pick and choose who is on their team"
There are no Employment Tribunals in the USA. There's only the court system. The courts are rarely used by someone who is fired and wants to fight it. There are a couple of reasons for this. 1) It is very hard to prove wr
Meanwhile, in the US... (Score:2)
You can get sacked for calling your boss by the wrong pronouns, or saying something that makes them "uncomfortable."
Dickhead is (Score:2)
RTFA (Score:3)
Whilst the headline is amusing, it's worth noting that the tribunal found in her favour because the company didn't follow the correct process in sacking her.
In other words, if you call your boss a dickhead and they dismiss you properly, you won't have a case to argue..
hard to see (Score:2)
It's certainly going to be hard to see in a heated argument but I'm my view she actually was using it endearingly - "I was going to leave except for you idiots" is, in my view, someone expressing conflicted affection. (Shrug)
Especially if he is a dickhead .. (Score:2)
You tell 'em
this happened in the UK? (Score:2)
Undoing erroneouos mod (Score:2)
n/t