'China Inside': How Chinese EV Tech Is Reshaping Global Auto Design (yahoo.com) 63
Global automakers are licensing Chinese electric vehicle technology to accelerate development and cut costs. Audi built its E5 Sportback in 18 months using SAIC's batteries, powertrain and software after the Zeekr 001 "shocked quite everyone" in 2021, according to Stefan Poetzl, president of SAIC Audi Sales and Marketing. Toyota and Volkswagen have joint development agreements for China-specific models using GAC and Xpeng technology respectively.
Renault and Ford plan to develop global models on Chinese platforms, according to Reuters. The licensing deals provide Chinese automakers additional revenue amid domestic price wars. Ready-made Chinese EV chassis and software can save billions of dollars and years of development time, industry experts told the publication. CATL and other Chinese suppliers are expanding chassis production for domestic and international customers.
Renault and Ford plan to develop global models on Chinese platforms, according to Reuters. The licensing deals provide Chinese automakers additional revenue amid domestic price wars. Ready-made Chinese EV chassis and software can save billions of dollars and years of development time, industry experts told the publication. CATL and other Chinese suppliers are expanding chassis production for domestic and international customers.
Good. (Score:2)
Such fear mongering and fud. It's more than a little pathetic.
Re: (Score:2)
Such fear mongering and fud. It's more than a little pathetic.
Such vagueposting.
Re: (Score:2)
It's baseball season.
Re:Fear mongering (Score:2)
On the contrary. China invested a lot in electric vehicles, while western car makers continued lobbying the politicians that anti-pollution laws would "harm the industry".
But the situation is also different politically. The right-wing western politicians believe that government "is only in the way" of a functioning market, while China believes the government is part of the market. So China not only subsidized electric vehicles and their development (*), they also bought the vehicles that were produced for p
long-term support is questionable (Score:5, Interesting)
Why shouldn't we leverage their work, especially for something that totally isn't at the cutting edge any more?
The main issues here is long-term replacement parts. They have a history of developing whizzy auto models, and then dropping all support a few years later. There's no time for a secondary parts market to develop, so people wind up with a 5 year old car but no replacement parts are available. They're practically throwaway items. If western car companies want to adopt Chinese designs, they better be making their own plans for replacement parts.
When I buy my first EV, I'll stick with US or Japanese. Those companies know how to keep a car alive for 15-20 years. It's part of the reason why they're more expensive. Supply-chains are not cheap, but without them, your expensive piece of tech turns into a paperweight.
Re: long-term support is questionable (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: long-term support is questionable (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a classical example of disruption from a technology transition. The incumbents treat the new technology cautiously because they don't want to cannibalize their existing products. They get pushed aside by new companies that don't have that concern.
China saw that EVs were the future and embraced them. The western car companies were making lots of money from their conventional cars, so they tried to keep that going and argued people didn't really want EVs. Guess which strategy will be better in the long run?
Re: (Score:2)
To be clear China didn't just embrace them. China used this transition to solve a multi factor problem.
1. Address not just emissions but also local city smog issues. - This is just the latest move
2. Address dependence on fuel imports - China is the world's largest importer of oil, they have little resources of their own and are wholly dependent on other countries.
3. Kill the dependence on foreign car companies locally - the entire Chinese car industry was dominated by Europeans. The wanted a Made in China f
Re: (Score:2)
You have no idea what you are talking about. The Chinese mode of production for supply chains is actually more decentralized than in the US. Industry heavyweights in the US that have pricing power exert more control over their suppliers than their Chinese counterparts do over theirs.
Re: (Score:2)
That it is not a workable approach should be obvious from a computational standpoint. How much processing power would be required to "solve" economic questions for a billion people? More than exists. Certainly, more than can be computed by a planning committee. You'd need a billion people spending most of their day on the problem. In other word
Re: (Score:2)
All a central planning system does is take a very small number of incredibly greedy people and put them in charge of everything, with no way to swap them out.
That it is not a workable approach should be obvious from a computational standpoint. How much processing power would be required to "solve" economic questions for a billion people? More than exists. Certainly, more than can be computed by a planning committee.
All true, which is why China's system isn't completely centralized like that. Centralization is a matter of degree, not a binary on/off switch. The Chinese government mandates the broad strokes, and leaves the detail work decentralized, to be handled by the market. They've got a lot more capitalism in their system at this point than they'd probably care to admit.
Re:long-term support is questionable (Score:5, Insightful)
And shortly thereafter, the Chinese take that too.
Wake up. Look at how many foreign cars are in your parking lots folks. Those 'industry experts' they are quoting are almost certainly only worried about short term profits. After all, that's what our higher education teaches all those MBA's.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:long-term support is questionable (Score:5, Insightful)
You make some valid points, but I'm not losing any sleep at night that the Chinese system will overtake the west. For starters, they're completely dependent on the whims of their emperor, which change every few years. If Xi wakes up one day and decides to curbstomp the EV manufacturers because they've become a threat, the industry will get the same treatment as the Chinese internet giants did in 2021.
Are you talking about China and Xi or the USA and Trump?
Re: (Score:1)
Trump is really powerful, and has a lot of influence in US society, and he's using his power in ways that I don't approve of. But, here's a list of a few things that he explicitly DOESNT control: The congress. The courts. The state legislatures. The state courts. The state national guards. The local governments. The local police departments.
Here is a list of things that Xi doesn't explicitly control in China: *insert null set here*
T
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Screen shotting this for a later post to reddit's r/agedlikemilk
Re: (Score:3)
Trump is really powerful, and has a lot of influence in US society, and he's using his power in ways that I don't approve of. But, here's a list of a few things that he explicitly DOESNT control: The congress. The courts. The state legislatures. The state courts. The state national guards. The local governments. The local police departments.
What? Republicans in congress vote with Trump in lock step. The supreme court rubber stamps nearly every case he appeals. Cheeto appointed tons and tons of loyal judges who favor his cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Lately the only person speaking out is Rand Paul and that says a whole hell of a lot when I agree with Rand Paul on something.
Re: (Score:2)
Trump is really powerful, and has a lot of influence in US society, and he's using his power in ways that I don't approve of. But, here's a list of a few things that he explicitly DOESNT control: The congress. The courts. The state legislatures. The state courts. The state national guards. The local governments. The local police departments.
This is exactly the frustrating and dangerous thing with Trump. He's not supposed to control these things that you list, but he in reality does have significant control. He can claim that he's following the Constitution with its checks and balances, but in reality, those checks and balances are significantly weakened. He hasn't imposed martial law or forced through an Enabling Act, but he's taken steps in that direction. It's perhaps not a coincidence that The Enabling Act was nominally predicated on th
Re: (Score:3)
Yes - foreign automakers have plants here. They employee hourly workers, and some engineers to keep it running. The majority of the engineering, design, and testing (the hard stuff) for foreign automakers happens in foreign countries. That's where the profits go.
So, yes, a some Toyotas are made here. But the engineering expertise is mostly overseas. Where do you want those nice white collar engineering and management jobs? China? Or here?
Re: (Score:3)
Are you kidding? One of the key reasons that China can get ahead with stuff like this is that they are able to plan for the long term. Investors and businesses have confidence that the government won't change it's mind every 4 years.
Re: (Score:2)
I bet the Chinese programmers are pretty good.
They don't even need to be "Chinese programmers". My Geely made EV has Google built-in (for those who don't know it's basically the entire andoid auto platform running locally in the car but also capable of all car related tasks such as running the instrument cluster), relegating the programmers to be glorified UI designers on an American packaged software platform.
Re: (Score:2)
Look at how many foreign cars are in your parking lots folks.
LOL, American made vehicles have sucked since before I was born. I am honestly surprised that I see as many American made vehicles as I actually see. They are an EXTREMELY poor value proposition unless you get lucky on a pick-up truck model. There are legitimate trucks being made by American manufacturers; however, each year, it is a different model and different manufacturer. It is not worth the risk.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
>"The question being: Will you be able get an U.S. or Japanese EV then which is not based on Chinese technology?"
I did. I just bought a Nissan Ariya a few months ago. 100% Japanese (and packed with lots of nice design and features). And the new Leaf is coming out soon with a major redesign and using a lot of the upgraded technology found in the Ariya.
>"And does it make sense to keep up a mindset adapted to internal combustion engines in an era of electrical cars?"
If you mean to have long-term parts
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
>"In July 2025, Dongfeng and Nissan formed Dongfeng Nissan [wikipedia.org]. One of the products coming from its assembly lines is - tada! - the Nissan Ariya."
My understanding is it just means that Dongfeng is licensed the ability to PRODUCE the Ariya (or other CMF stuff) for their own market. It was designed by Nissan and the ones available/sold in the West, NZ, and Australia are built in Japan.
Re: (Score:2)
>> they better be making their own plans for replacement parts
And that appears to be the case, the Chinese are merely providing the IP under license.
The EU automakers are "looking to use Chinese intellectual property to roll out new models rapidly". "Chinese automakers sell EV technology in a box". It will be a "licensing and royalty service".
Re:long-term support is questionable (Score:4, Interesting)
They have a history of developing whizzy auto models, and then dropping all support a few years later.
[snip] When I buy my first EV, I'll stick with US or Japanese. Those companies know how to keep a car alive for 15-20 years.
What do you actually base this on? Where's this history you speak of? China has well known brands that not only have been around for over a decade, but you can still source parts for BYD's earliest cars. This sounds like a baseless trope which has been repeated.
Even better the world is actually well known for supporting cars better than their manufacturers. When my Clio glearbox sensor died the original Siemens part was not longer manufactured. I had no problem sourcing a replacement from ... China. It's the Germans / French who were the bottleneck. When my father's hydraulic system broke on his GM convertible, it as a local hydraulic company he turned to because the supposed awesome US companies abandoned the car from a spare parts perspective.
You're chasing the wrong problem if you're banking on a USA company to keep their EV drive trains going for 2 decades.
Re:long-term support is questionable (Score:4, Interesting)
Let's be honest, EV drivetrain design isn't exactly cutting-edge science.
LOL. A simple EV drivetrain is easy. A modern EV? It's an engineering work of art, with specialized power electrics, electric motors with power density that is insane, etc.
A lot of complexity is not apparent to classic mechanical engineers, but it's no less real. If anything, it's the gasoline engines that require no real expertise anymore.
Re: (Score:1)
There is legal requirement for availability of spare parts on each major market. Also, specs need to be open so that OEMs can produce them (even in case original manufacturer ends support).
Re: (Score:3)
You vastly under-estimate the technology that goes into EV drivetrains. Compare early models like the Leaf and Tesla Roadster/S to modern ones. The modern ones are vastly more efficient, despite the cars being larger and heavier. Everything from the mechanical parts of the drivetrain, to the motors, to the motor driving electronics, to the regen, to the throttle and brake response, to the cruise control, or the battery thermal management, has all been heavily optimized, and continues to be.
Same with batteri
Re: (Score:2)
Sounds like a problem for capitalism.
Most western companies refuse to invest (Score:5, Interesting)
They only care about quarterly results, not long term planning. Thats why the all grow through acquisitions. That short term thinking is a core societal problem
Ford's future cheap truck (Score:2)
I'm super curious about the smaller truck that Ford announced, https://www.caranddriver.com/n... [caranddriver.com]. There is a lot of news but EVs are not all about China.
Re: (Score:2)
IMHO, it's FUD.
Telo [telotrucks.com] and Slate [slate.auto] have gotten a fair amount of attention lately for their pledge to create small EV trucks. So before this gets out-of-hand, Ford is announcing that they, too, will be jumping on the bandwagon and creating a small inexpensive truck.
The goal, like any FUD, is to freeze the market. "Gosh, I'd love a small truck. But I've never heard of Telo or Slate. Maybe I'll wait to see what Ford comes up with..." Ford just sits there saying, "Yeah, you don't want to buy from those weird no
Re: (Score:2)
That Car and Driver article is recent. But Ford's investments in the space are not: https://techcrunch.com/2024/06... [techcrunch.com]
It seems that Ford is taking a whole new track on this new product line. The result will be worth seeing. New companies with little resources and no track record are more likely FUD than the actions a well established automotive company is taking.
EV won't change the world (Score:1)
Self-driving .. that will change the world dramatically. We're probably about a decade away from the first truly self-driving car being on the road, but when it happens it will trigger a slow revolution such that by 2050 a majority of vehicles will be self driving.
Re: (Score:2)
Self-driving .. that will change the world dramatically. We're probably about a decade away from the first truly self-driving car being on the road, but when it happens it will trigger a slow revolution such that by 2050 a majority of vehicles will be self driving.
Self driving will happen when the manufacturers are willing to assume the insurance liability. So not anytime soon.
Re: (Score:2)
How does Waymo and Zoox do it?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That only explains why they are only in a few cities, but not how they handled the insurance issue.
Re: (Score:2)
Steal this tech (Score:2)
Chinese manufacturers are well known for licensing western technology, then stealing it.
Now...
Re: (Score:2)
American car companies suck (Score:3)
It's crazy how we're both affluent and the most car oriented culture in the world and yet for almost half a century our auto manufacturers have basically ceded most of the global market as well as a significant part of the American to Asian companies. Tesla had a good thing going for a bit but then Musk put it on autopilot to go into politics and now they're playing catchup in a world where Musk has managed to piss everyone off.
For how innovative our country can be in general our car companies really just suck. They're like the game publisher EA coasting on their sports titles with our auto company's addiction to making oversized vehicles only a segment of Americans buy when they could be so much more.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
We were still world leaders in innovation in the 80's and 90's when this first started happening though. Some of the biggest companies in American today either didn't exist or were a tiny fraction of their current selves when this was first happening.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, that's exactly my point.
Re: (Score:2)
The Corvette is every bit as capable as a Ferrari these days but I'm hearing reports of brand new ones needing engine rebuilds. Typical GM quality.
Re: (Score:2)
American companies making a nice sports car doesn't really make up for the incompetence involved in surrendering the bulk of the international market to foreign competitors.
Re: (Score:2)
The US market is terrible. Selection is very poor. Not just how many models aren't sold, but entire categories of vehicle are missing from the market.
A lot of it has to do with the top-down focus of the big auto companies. They act from a mindset of, "What can we push on these people to make them spend as much as possible?" which has shaped the vehicles they offer. You see how deeply this mindset runs in the industry, with the dealership model for sales as well. At every level, they're focused on pushing yo
Reinvent the wheel (Score:3)
The question is do these companies want to invest to reinvent a wheel or just get to market as fast as possible to remain relevant in the market segment that is eroding away? The writing is already on the wall and the way how the CCP subsidies Chinese companies is much different than the way things are done in the west. You could in theory compare CCP to Amazon in that the most important thing is to deliver value to the customer so that they are happy customers to want to come back to do more sales. In doing so, while profits are important, if there are no customers, or in this case, happy customers (happy/content citizens) then there is no profit to extract value from.
What is the quickest way to get a product to market of something you don't already have but you desperately need? Since they can't steal it, at best is to just license it and make tweaks to it to satisfy whatever regulatory bodies that govern a particular region/nation and you make it work. The sooner you're to the market the more time you'll have to come up with something that is truly unique on the second go around. The first one doesn't have to be perfect but it has to not completely suck so bad that you're seen as a complete failure. As long as the product is functional it is a start.
Licensing deals ... (Score:3)
The licensing deals provide Chinese automakers additional revenue amid domestic price wars. Ready-made Chinese EV chassis and software can save billions of dollars and years of development time, industry experts told the publication.
As long as they are license manufacturing chassis, plan to replace the software with domestic products and not buying knock down kits from China that should work out well for everybody ... except Americans, they'll be stuck with gigantic pickup trucks that start at 80.000 USD and underwhelming and overpriced ICE powered passenger cars due to protectionist import restrictions.
Chinese EV tech or Chinese EV subsidies? (Score:1)
The CCP is trying to monopolize the world's EV industries. They are doing it with massive subsidies in many industries including EVs.
\o/ (Score:2)
Maybe the US can license its economic sanctions tech? Or directly hook people up: ESaaS ?
Few Add. Info: Little Chat With A Didi Driver (Score:3)
One of them was driving an X-Peng P7+, or Xiao Peng (pronounce shiao pong).
The car was so impressive we had a little chat with the driver.
I let you dig the Internet for the specs of the car, or Youtube for some reviews.
What was almost jaw dropping
- 180000 yuans, or +/- 23000 € in May. I know, no doubt that in France, after taxes and resellers margin, it would be at least double this price. Can't know, this model is no imported, yet. We can only find the G6 at around 50000 €, and the G9 for about 70000 €. No, thanks.
- he told us that car prices have fallen 3 times in the past few months. Tell me, when was the last time you heard about paying less than before for a car? 12 years ago, I paid my Honda Civic (second product range) 25000 €. Nowadays, the first price for a Civic is almost 38000 €. Have your salaries increased that much in 12 years?
By the way, when Chinese gvt and people set their mind onto something, they do not hesitate nor take much time to think about it: in about 5 years, they replace nearly all cars by EV. Maybe can you see few hybrid ones. Or "luxury" gas powered ones, from did-you-noticed-I-have-money?-a-lot-of-money brands like BMW, Mercedes, Porsche
Xpeng Test driving (Score:2)
The P7 is a run of the mill Tesla 3 clone with small cargo area. The G6 and G9 are however interesting, because they compete with the Model Y, Enyaq, EQC, instead.
The correct mindset to look into your statement, is to look at what it would cost to buy the lowest spec Tesla Model 3, when it was possible to get some heft subsidies in USA. Its not that far off. It gives a indication of how much of the vehicle is taxes, and how much is the internal markup for not being the smallest ecobox to the OEM.
In the end