US Investigates Waymo Robotaxis Over Safety Around School Buses (reuters.com) 45
U.S. regulators have opened a new investigation into about 2,000 Waymo self-driving cars after reports that one of the company's robotaxis illegally passed a stopped school bus with flashing lights and children disembarking.
Waymo says it's "already developed and implemented improvements related to stopping for school buses and will land additional software updates in our next software release." The company added "driving safely around children has always been one of Waymo's highest priorities. ... [Waymo] approached the school bus from an angle where the flashing lights and stop sign were not visible and drove slowly around the front of the bus before driving past it, keeping a safe distance from children." Reuters reports: NHTSA opened the investigation after a recent media report aired video of an incident in Georgia in which a Waymo did not remain stationary when approaching a school bus with its red lights flashing and stop arm deployed. The report said the Waymo vehicle initially stopped then maneuvered around the bus, passing the extended stop arm while students were disembarking. Waymo's automated driving system surpassed 100 million miles of driving in July and is logging 2 million miles per week, the agency said. "Based on NHTSA's engagement with Waymo on this incident and the accumulation of operational miles, the likelihood of other prior similar incidents is high," the agency said. NHTSA said the vehicle involved was equipped with Waymo's fifth-generation Automated Driving System and was operating without a human safety driver at the time of the incident.
Waymo says it's "already developed and implemented improvements related to stopping for school buses and will land additional software updates in our next software release." The company added "driving safely around children has always been one of Waymo's highest priorities. ... [Waymo] approached the school bus from an angle where the flashing lights and stop sign were not visible and drove slowly around the front of the bus before driving past it, keeping a safe distance from children." Reuters reports: NHTSA opened the investigation after a recent media report aired video of an incident in Georgia in which a Waymo did not remain stationary when approaching a school bus with its red lights flashing and stop arm deployed. The report said the Waymo vehicle initially stopped then maneuvered around the bus, passing the extended stop arm while students were disembarking. Waymo's automated driving system surpassed 100 million miles of driving in July and is logging 2 million miles per week, the agency said. "Based on NHTSA's engagement with Waymo on this incident and the accumulation of operational miles, the likelihood of other prior similar incidents is high," the agency said. NHTSA said the vehicle involved was equipped with Waymo's fifth-generation Automated Driving System and was operating without a human safety driver at the time of the incident.
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> You're probably not an American, but in order to get your license in the USA, you have to learn that school children don't know how to cross the street.
FTFY.
Re:it's a ridiculous and unreasonable rule (Score:5, Informative)
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School buses even have a pole that sticks out the front of the bus so kids crossing the street have to go several feet in front of the bus so drivers who might be in the other lane can see the kids and they don't just appear in front of the bus.
Of course, the big issue is on roads where there's a double lane going in the same direction. It's technically illegal to pass a school bus but if you're in the lane beside it, technically you're supposed to stop even the moment it flips out the sign. Which can be im
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School buses even have a pole that sticks out the front of the bus so kids crossing the street have to go several feet in front of the bus so drivers who might be in the other lane can see the kids and they don't just appear in front of the bus.
I'm pretty sure the purpose of the pole is so the kids walk far enough in front of the bus that the bus driver can see them. Buses are tall and kids are short, so if a kid walks right in front of the bus they'll be hidden from the driver by the dashboard. If a bunch of kids disembark and several of them turn left out of the door, the driver would have to keep a very careful count to make sure they've accounted for all of the ones who could have turned left again, right in front of the bus and might be walk
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There is another one that sticks out to side and indicates that you should not go forward.
Not where I live. They do have a stop sign that flips out to the side.
I do not recommend passing a stopped bus, even if you do not hit anyone.
I'm wondering what I said that made you think I thought otherwise.
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Re: it's a ridiculous and unreasonable rule (Score:2)
School buses are idiotically designed.
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School buses are idiotically designed.
Please elaborate.
Re: it's a ridiculous and unreasonable rule (Score:2)
Note: applies to US only.
They have a high centre of gravity due to being high up, which is part of the reason for the stick. The other reason for the stick is most buses are not rear engine and flat fronted. Lastly, the schools can only afford a few of the buses to have the system to allow for wheelchair users. Some don't even have one and instead have to send an alternative bus.
Modern city buses do not have these issues. Older city buses from the 1940s and 50s did. Why are we still building school buses wi
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Note: applies to US only.
They have a high centre of gravity due to being high up, which is part of the reason for the stick. The other reason for the stick is most buses are not rear engine and flat fronted. Lastly, the schools can only afford a few of the buses to have the system to allow for wheelchair users. Some don't even have one and instead have to send an alternative bus.
Modern city buses do not have these issues. Older city buses from the 1940s and 50s did. Why are we still building school buses with such an old unsafe design?
Interesting. What stick are you talking about? I'm talking about the thin plastic tube that hinges out from the front passenger corner and blocks kids from being able to walk in front of the bus. It clearly can't have anything to do with center of gravity or stability; you can bend it with one finger (it springs back).
Also, all the buses where I live (in the US) are rear engine and have flat fronts.
Re: it's a ridiculous and unreasonable rule (Score:2)
When I say "the stick" I'm referring to the one that is there so the driver can see students when they need to cross the road.
Here in Florida every bus is the front engine kind, at least everywhere I've lived in Central Florida so far.
For whatever reason they have the buses flash a light continuously mounted on the roof. First time I've ever seen that. I guess it's to alert drivers but it seems a little pointless to me.
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When I say "the stick" I'm referring to the one that is there so the driver can see students when they need to cross the road.
Okay... but what does that have to do with the center of gravity? And those sticks are just as important for rear-engine buses as for front-engine buses, though they probably don't have to be quite as long.
Here in Florida every bus is the front engine kind, at least everywhere I've lived in Central Florida so far.
In Utah I don't think I've seen one of those for at least 20 years, and they were rare before that.
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Okay... but what does that have to do with the center of gravity? And those sticks are just as important for rear-engine buses as for front-engine buses, though they probably don't have to be quite as long.
The center of gravity is relevant because it places the driver higher up and the front engine compounds the lack of visibility. The stick/pole is a solution but it does not get to the root of the problem, which IMHO is the bus being high up when it could be lower including lowering at stops like city buses do.
In Utah I don't think I've seen one of those for at least 20 years, and they were rare before that.
It's nice to know Utah picks the safer (for pedestrians) buses.
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The center of gravity is relevant because it places the driver higher up
Uh, no. Center of gravity [wikipedia.org] isn't related to how high the driver sits.
The stick/pole is a solution but it does not get to the root of the problem, which IMHO is the bus being high up when it could be lower including lowering at stops like city buses do.
Ah, I see, you think they should use low-floor buses. Those are a lot more expensive, have higher maintenance costs (especially the kneeling ones), require flatter terrain (buses don't go offroading, but where I live they can't stay on the pavement all the time and also have to contend with deep snow), and give up seating capacity because the wheel wells and rear engine intrude into the seating are. Their only real advantage is accessibi
Related to Elmo and Tesla taxi's? (Score:1)
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I'm sure someone took a video of it that got a lot of clicks on social media, where these politicians spend most of their time.
After it entered their field of vision, they couldn't let such an easy opportunity to "think of the children" and "reign in big tech" pass by. So they'll call for an investigation with their mouths, as their left hand takes cash from Waybro, and their right props up a pedophile president.
guess how far that excuse gets you or me (Score:3)
Sorry, I didn't know the school bus had it's lights on because I didn't bother to look very hard
"ticket dismissed" -- my ass
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If one person goes by, he gets arrested. If hundreds go by, that's a different story.
The drivers on my morning commute seem to be taking collective action to ignore this particular law after a particular bus would regularly stop 6 lanes of traffic and just hang the sign out for no apparent reason, long after all the kids boarded and the parents disappeared back inside their apartment complex. Just sitting there with the sign out, lights flashing, no kids, and hundreds of cars backed up.
Not that any kids wer
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Not that any kids were crossing the 6 lanes in the first place, but now no one on the opposite side of the street stops for that bus. (The ones on the same side as the bus and the kids still stop.)
You might want to check the driving laws in your state. In my state it says that if there is an open lane (or turning lane) between the bus and vehicles driving the opposite way, those vehicles do not need to stop. The drivers of those vehicles going the opposite direction might actually be following the laws in your state correctly.
https://www.safe2drive.com/dri... [safe2drive.com]
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I took a class on driving laws in my state. It was a few years ago, but I don't think the laws have changed since then. If so, everyone is still following the old law, except in this one instance.
I'm willing to believe some out-of-state transplants who don't know the law in Texas were the first to unknowingly break it, then everyone else who does know the law but recognizes it's ridiculous followed them.
Doesn't matter what kind of lanes are between them, or even if they are two different road surfaces separ
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Had one bus on 8 lane divided surface road in a commercial area, park on the road with the stop extended. The driver left the vehicle (Finding parking for a bus is hard). On a two lane residential road, I have seen this done so the driver can help a disabled student board, same side. It seems like the stop sign deployment is being used as a park anywhere pass.
Oh, how about having a bus driver engage in a 6 minute conversation with a parent, long after the children had sat down, stop sign deployed the en
These cars should have to pass drivers ed tests (Score:2)
You me and every other human on the road had to take driver's Ed and pass the test why in the heck do these cars not have to do the same thing? Why? because waymo has money and they can pay the politicians off.
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People who have taken driver's ed still make damn foolish mistakes. As is Waymo currently has a lower accident rate per mile driven than humans do on average.
As such, I consider 'we were made aware of the problem and deployed a fix' to be an acceptable outcome. Much like a teenager who just upgraded from a learner's permit, they should keep improving.
As they keep identifying and fixing bugs, IE incorrect driving decisions, the rate should keep dropping until they're better than all but the best human driv
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Yes we should judge someone who has a demonstrated driving record that far exceeds human drivers by a test for human drivers.
No thanks. I'll take Waymo's record of having never injured a school child over your certification for deadly human drivers any day of the week.
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You can't compare stats, because you have a much smaller geographical regions that smart cars exist in and number of cars.
and if robo car kills an kid who will do the hard (Score:2)
and if robo car kills an kid who will do the hard time? how far will they go to keep the source code out of the court room?
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and if robo car kills an kid who will do the hard time?
Same as when a person does: no one. Car "accidents" i.e. crashes are treated more like an act of nature than either a collisions cause by an individual making poor decisions, and more importantly (especially in North America) by a system set up to rely as heavily as possible on flawed human decisions with little thought to inherent safety in road design.
Basically, people don't really care.
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and if robo car kills an kid who will do the hard time?
Same as when a person does: no one. Car "accidents" i.e. crashes are treated more like an act of nature than either a collisions cause by an individual making poor decisions, and more importantly (especially in North America) by a system set up to rely as heavily as possible on flawed human decisions with little thought to inherent safety in road design.
Basically, people don't really care.
I think you are wrong. People do hard time in cases of traffic accidents. Especially if it results in fatalities. For example, in Canada:
Impaired driving causing death: 4 to 10 years
Dangerous driving causing death: Up to life
Criminal negligence causing death: 4 to life
Hit and run: Up to life
The above are just general figures.
A few actual examples:
Sentences for fatal vehicle accidents (2020–2025):
High-profile impaired and dangerous driving cases
Brady Robertson (Ontario):
Accident: On June 18, 2020, Robe
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No one. People don't do hard time for killing people with cars. They may if they demonstrate a true long historical pattern of dangerous behaviour including past incidents, or if someone can prove they did it on purpose.
how far will they go to keep the source code out of the court room?
Source code will not come into question in such a case. The practice and procedures for development and testing will. No one has the ability to review a trained model in any meaningful way beyond seeing what it would output for a given set of inputs. As such the court case will follow on the
Re: and if robo car kills an kid who will do the h (Score:2)
There's a bug in the software (Score:3)
Someone didn't design this into the requirements.
Yawn...
Get a new version out there.
The only question that should be being asked is: 'Are driverless cars safer than having humans in the driving seat?' It seems very clear they are. This challenges our pride, so we find reasons to suggest otherwise. This is uncomfortable.
Re: There's a bug in the software (Score:2)
Waymo speeds through my school neighborhood (Score:3, Interesting)
Sure the speed limit is 30, but we have tons of kids in the neighborhood and narrow streets due to parked cars (we are still in the heart of the coty). Everyone else travels at 20. Waymo regularly travels at 30mph. Maybe its lidar is detecting pedestrians and thinks it is safe, but just the other day I watched a kid run out from behind a parked car to catch a ball. No amount of lidar would catch that at the last minute.
Of course itâ(TM)s play fast, fail hard.. so change will not happen until a kid dies. Just hope it is not mine!
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Everyone else travels at 20.
Hahahahah spotting the obvious lie.
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Sure the speed limit is 30, but we have tons of kids in the neighborhood and narrow streets due to parked cars (we are still in the heart of the coty). Everyone else travels at 20. Waymo regularly travels at 30mph. Maybe its lidar is detecting pedestrians and thinks it is safe, but just the other day I watched a kid run out from behind a parked car to catch a ball. No amount of lidar would catch that at the last minute.
Of course itâ(TM)s play fast, fail hard.. so change will not happen until a kid dies. Just hope it is not mine!
Have you pointed this out to Waymo? They're pretty responsive from what I've heard, and this is exactly the kind of thing they'd want to know about and update their model to consider, before a kid gets hit. Not only do they not want to kill kids because Waymo employees are humans, but it would also be horrendous PR that would seriously damage the company.
You can submit feedback through the Waymo app, regardless of whether or not you've used the service. There's probably also a way to report concerns thr
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Re: Waymo speeds through my school neighborhood (Score:2)
I've only seen... (Score:2)
I've only seen my brother talk to a woman and then marry her once. Given how often my brother talks to women he must have been married thousands of times by now.
Given school buses usually have cameras these days and drivers frequently report humans not stopping using them, not to mention the eagerness for people to post such things on social media in the hope of getting a viral video. If this was a frequent thing we would have had many more than just one report. Unless they have reports or proof of multi
Issue a ticket to the CTO (Score:2)
Seems to me the way to fix this, and by this I mean bad driving behavior by self driving vehicles, is to make C-Level executives personally responsible for the actions of the driving software. Find a way to "pierce the corporate veil" and issue the traffic infractions to specific high level people in corporations.
Yeah, it's a pipe dream as corporations won't stand for it and kind of own congress, but hey we can dream right?
Re: Issue a ticket to the CTO (Score:2)
improve signage (Score:2)