Senator Blocks Trump-Backed Effort To Make Daylight Saving Time Permanent (politico.com) 167
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Politico: Sen. Tom Cotton wasn't fast enough in 2022 to block Senate passage of legislation that would make daylight saving time permanent. Three years later, he wasn't about to repeat that same mistake. The Arkansas Republican was on hand Tuesday afternoon to thwart a bipartisan effort on the chamber floor to pass a bill that would put an end to changing the clocks twice a year, including this coming Sunday. [...] A cross-party coalition of lawmakers has been trying for years to make daylight saving time the default, which would result in more daylight in the evening hours with less in the morning, plus bring to a halt to biannual clock adjustments.
President Donald Trump endorsed the concept this spring, calling the changing of the clocks "a big inconvenience and, for our government, A VERY COSTLY EVENT!!!" His comments coincided with a hearing, then a markup, of Scott's legislation in the Senate Commerce Committee. It set off an intense lobbying battle in turn, pitting the golf and retail industries -- which are advocating for permanent daylight saving time -- against the likes of sleep doctors and Christian radio broadcasters -- who prefer standard time. "If permanent Daylight Savings Time becomes the law of the land, it will again make winter a dark and dismal time for millions of Americans," said Cotton in his objection to a request by Sen. Rick Scott (R-Fla.) to advance the bill by unanimous consent. "For many Arkansans, permanent daylight savings time would mean the sun wouldn't rise until after 8:00 or even 8:30am during the dead of winter," Cotton continued. "The darkness of permanent savings time would be especially harmful for school children and working Americans."
President Donald Trump endorsed the concept this spring, calling the changing of the clocks "a big inconvenience and, for our government, A VERY COSTLY EVENT!!!" His comments coincided with a hearing, then a markup, of Scott's legislation in the Senate Commerce Committee. It set off an intense lobbying battle in turn, pitting the golf and retail industries -- which are advocating for permanent daylight saving time -- against the likes of sleep doctors and Christian radio broadcasters -- who prefer standard time. "If permanent Daylight Savings Time becomes the law of the land, it will again make winter a dark and dismal time for millions of Americans," said Cotton in his objection to a request by Sen. Rick Scott (R-Fla.) to advance the bill by unanimous consent. "For many Arkansans, permanent daylight savings time would mean the sun wouldn't rise until after 8:00 or even 8:30am during the dead of winter," Cotton continued. "The darkness of permanent savings time would be especially harmful for school children and working Americans."
Sen. Tom Cotton (Score:5, Funny)
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Careful how you read that.
Big retail actually (Score:3, Informative)
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See, I don't get it. Just change your business hours - it's not hard.
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Brick and mortar wants daylight savings because it adds an extra hour of shopping.
See, I don't get it. Just change your business hours - it's not hard.
That doesn't help. I can change my business hours (I do actually..) with the seasons. I do not make any sales being open when there are no customers.
What matters is when the customers come and shop. Customers want to shop during daylight hours after they get off of work.
Most people do not get to choose their work hours. Their employer sets them at approximately 9-5.
Customers are more likely to go and shop if it is still daylight when they get off work (at 5-6 pm) than if it is dark.
Retailers want perman
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Brick and mortars are already doing peak business in the winter. I'm not sure why they think there's room for more, or why they think darkness is hindering them when they're already at their busiest.
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Re:Sen. Tom Cotton [picked that hill...] (Score:2)
Really? This fool picked THAT hill to die on? Really, there's nothing else the YOB has done bothers that supreme moron of the Senate.
Pardon my redundancy. Really hard to pick a supreme moron out of the nest of morons. (But I'm sort of sorry he isn't a Mormon moron. That sounds better and is funnier to say ten times quickly...)
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Really? This fool picked THAT hill to die on? Really, there's nothing else the YOB has done bothers that supreme moron of the Senate.
Year of birth?
I find it hilarious that the one time a Republican stands up to the president, it is over something that ~100% of the American public agree with (ending time changes).
The right law to pass is one that gives the states the right to choose permanent DST, and then phases out the changes at the next time change. So at the next time change, if your area chooses permanent DST, you either stay on DST or switch to DST (depending on which time change), and if your area chooses permanent standard time,
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The right law to pass is one that gives the states the right to choose permanent DST, and then phases out the changes at the next time change.
Nope. We don't have POSIX timezones defined per-state at this time.
Do you have any idea how many systems assign the genreic timezones like "EST5" or "US/Eastern" to users? Even those that use the more correct versions like "America/New_York" will run into problems if, for example, NY and PA don't do the same thing. FYI, here's a list of the POSIX timezones: https://github.com/nayarsystem... [github.com] (feel free to google it yourself if you want a more definitive source).
Before you ask, yes, additional zones could be
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I would call bullshit on "something that ~100% of the American public agree with (ending time changes)". The closer to Mexico they are the more likely people will agree with you, but those closer to Canada are ones that actually benefit from daylights saving and would disagree with you. Basically I call bullshit because you are effectively claim "~100% of the American public" live in the southern states.
Close to 100% want it to stop changing. Different states have different opinions about which way.
Just in case you don't understand the core issue, if you are close to the equator daylights saving is pointless and a hassle, but the closer to the poles you are the more extreme the number of daylight hours changes from summer to winter, 6 hours where I live. For people like me daylight savings makes the most of those hours by bringing the light hours closer in sync with when I need them.
Does it really, though? Where I am, it gets dark before I get home from work. Permanent DST seems like a big benefit from my POV, because those early morning hours are wasted indoors getting ready for work anyway, but evening hours can be used outdoors.
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One day he will die and someone else will be elected to his seat... then maybe we can end the insanity of clock changing.
not federal, make it a state choice (Score:2)
Just let it be a state choice. Feds need to get out. Each state can pick whatever messed-up time they want.
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They do. Arizona (except for the Navajo Nation) and Hawaii are the two U.S. states that do not observe daylight saving time. Additionally, several U.S. territories do not observe it, including American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands.
Re:not federal, make it a state choice (Score:4, Informative)
Re:not federal, make it a state choice (Score:4, Informative)
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Indiana has two timezones. Maybe they can pick a lane before change them?
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Great... that's just what the sysadmins in this forum need. Another 49 time zones to choose from in our operating system and application configuration screens.
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That's exactly what this bill would do!
Well within reason. They can choose between permanent DST or no DST.
They're being dishonest assholes by omitting to mention that the new law would still allow them to just opt out of it and lock into normal time year round.
I want to keep the status quo (Score:4, Interesting)
I know, time for the twice-yearly bitchfest about DST.
Business schedules need to change with the season. Everybody moving their clocks (most of them automatically nowadays) is so much easier than everybody changing schedules.
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Makes you wonder how the majority of the world which doesn't use DST manages to cope.
Japan should have at least two, China should have 3-4, Western Europe should be 2-3, yet they all get by with one.
Automatic changes are nice, as long as the calculation of the date and the time it happens never changes. Even within the EU, the switch over time isn't consistent - some countries are 1AM, some are 2AM, some are 3AM.
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Portugal and Ireland are an hour behind the main block of EU countries (CET), Spain should be as well but General Franco decreed that his country should be in the same timezone as his hero (Adolf Hitler) and they never changed it back after he died. I suppose France should also be in the same time zone as Portugal, Ireland and the UK but that probably has more to with wanting to have the same time as the rest of the original EU (called Common Market then) rather than a desire to
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Yes, the exact hour at which the change is made is adjusted for timezone, and based off UTC (so including leap seconds).
For automated systems, they have to account for that difference when calculating DST times. It annoys users because they expect it to "just work", but unless the system knows which timezone it is in then it can't be fully automated.
It would be better to just not bother with it, and if particular groups want to have different summer and winter opening times they can do that themselves. It's
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"For many Arkansans, permanent daylight savings time would mean the sun wouldn't rise until after 8:00 or even 8:30am during the dead of winter," Cotton continued. "The darkness of permanent savings time would be especially harmful for school children and working Americans."
And yet Alaska and Canada have somehow always made it work, year after year.
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Nobody said that it wasn't possible to cope without it - but having it makes coping with the seasonal changes easier.
... said no sleep expert ever, no anyone forced to wake up for work in a zone that recognizes DST.
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Makes you wonder how the majority of the world which doesn't use DST manages to cope.
The majority of the worlds population live in dictatorships. Wonder how they manage to cope. Perhaps dictatorships are not so bad?
Automatic changes are nice, as long as the calculation of the date and the time it happens never changes. Even within the EU, the switch over time isn't consistent - some countries are 1AM, some are 2AM, some are 3AM.
Some are even midnight. Time of time changes in Europe are consistently pegged to UTC not local time.
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Automatic changes are nice, as long as the calculation of the date and the time it happens never changes. Even within the EU, the switch over time isn't consistent - some countries are 1AM, some are 2AM, some are 3AM.
When talking to normal people about timezones, I like to throw in that the "fall back; spring forward" timing isn't always applied as we do. You're probably aware already, but the US starts those changes at 2am local time whether it be the fall back or spring forward (2am becomes 1am, or 2am becomes 3 am). Some places bracket it around the hour such that fall back may happen at 2am (2am becomes 1am), but sprint forward would happen at 1am (1am moves back to 2am). There's also ones that happen at midnight, w
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Why do business schedules need to change with the season? And wouldn't it depend on the business anyway?
I'm curious to know what businesses you're even thinking of. I know farmers hate the time changes. I know office workers hate the time changes. I can't think of any reason a factory would need to open earlier during the warmer months than the colder months.
Who actually wants it?
(Also I can't believe I agree with TFG about something. Urgh. I need to shower.)
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The same class of insecure parent who didn't want their kid walking in the dark now drives their kids to school, so it's not so much of an issue now.
Tom "The darkness of permanent savings time would be especially harmful for school children" Cotton obviously doesn't. His kids probably still ride horses.
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It came nowhere close to that long, being imposed in January 1974 [wikipedia.org] because of the oil crisis, and being retracted less than a year later when people had had time to see how stupid it was and how dangerous it was for school children in the winter.
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Can't we just move it 30 minutes and be done with it? Split the difference and never look back.
Re:I want to keep the status quo (Score:5, Insightful)
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Blame the Great Western Railway.
I thought Saudi Arabia was on "sun time" until relatively recently, that would mean within the last 20 years.
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Saudi Arabia switched from "Arabic time" (based on local sunset) to conventional solar time in 1968.
Re:I want to keep the status quo (Score:5, Informative)
The traditional method is to define noon as when the sun is at its zenith.
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But the word comes from Latin nonus ("ninth"), and with sunrise at 6, that would have been nine hours later, around 3 p.m. in Old English.
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I feel like northern Alaska is going to have some complaints about that system when they're at hour 5320 of a day in summer
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I've been saying this for a long time, though I would say 7am. Of course, sunrise time is different depending not just your longitude, but also your latitude, so we would be back to picking a sample location for each time zone. And this means adjusting clocks every night. Just slightly near the solstices, but more significantly closer to the equinoxes. So all clocks would need to have automated changes. This would be a great chance to get rid of all manually set clocks while creating lots of waste.
And
Sunrise Time (Score:2)
I propose we switch to Sunrise Time. Instead of AM and PM, we have Day and Night. The Day starts at sunrise and Night starts at sunset. So we would have times like: D1:30 (an hour and a half after sunrise) or N0:00 (sunset). We could also have negative time: N-1:00 (an hour before sunset). The day would start at sunrise, but if using negative day time, it would refer to the day of the sunrise, even though the same time expressed as positive Night time would be the previous day.
So someone might set the
And we have a new #1 (Score:2)
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It used to be Trump at #1 most hated on my list, but now it's Senator Cotton.
A pox upon his house! A pox I say!
He's in the Senate, not the House. :-)
(and the House already has a pox on it)
Set your own schedules (Score:5, Insightful)
>>"The darkness of permanent savings time would be especially harmful for school children and working Americans."
There is nothing stopping schools or businesses in northern areas from starting an hour later in the winter. Don't make everybody go through this hell because you are too unimaginative to fix your own problems.
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it is northern most of the confederate states, if you discount other states.
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There is nothing stopping schools or businesses in northern areas from starting an hour later in the winter.
Don't make everybody go through this hell because you are too unimaginative to fix your own problems.
Go through hell? What the "hell" are you talking about?
What is especially dumb about all of this is it the fact this exact thing was tried in the mid 70s, people hated it and it didn't last a year before everyone went back.
My grandfather used to say (Score:4, Funny)
The fact that Trump wants to make it permanent supports this theory.
An uncomfortable feeling (Score:2)
Why is there Daylight savings time? (Score:5, Insightful)
So at different times of the year, the day/night 24 hour cycle makes for differences in light and dark times.
The length of daylight at the equators does not change that much over the course of the year.
The length of daylight varies more and more as the latitude increases. Eventually, it reaches a point where there are months that the sun does not set, and months where it does not rise.
What does this lead to? People who live closer to the equator find the concept of DST/ST annoying and stupid because they are taking their situation, little difference between summer and winter daylight length.
The further north or south you go from the equator, Daylight Savings time makes more sense. Eventually the differences between summer and winter daylight become so extreme (think land of the midnight sun) that there is no compensation.
Daylight Savings time is a simple 1 hour shift back and forth to compensate for that.
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No it doesn't make sense.
It was done as a joke by Ben Franklin where he suggested people wake up earlier in the summer to save candle costs.
In the equatorial region, it makes little sense since the sun gets up and sets pretty consistently all year round.
At the poles, an hour shift does absolutely nothing - at the extreme ends, 24 hours of sunlight means no daylight to save - the sun is up and stays up (and consequently in the winter, it never rises)
When you have 16-18 hours of sunlight, DST makes no sense a
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Example;
Today in Spokane, sunrise at 7:30, sunset at 5:36. 10:06 of daylight.
December 21; back on standard time, so sunrise at 7:35, sunset at 4:00, 8:25 of daylight.
June 21; DST, sunrise 4:51, sunset at 8:51; 15:59 of daylight.
Winter make solar power a problem and the overcast skies make that even worse.
Summer makes star gazing a problem. True night is from midnight to 1:40 AM.
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Much of the problem (Score:3)
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Moving to permanent Summer Time would fix that for those areas.
Can we not make rapid clock changes? (Score:2)
Re:Can we not make rapid clock changes? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, that's fair. Passing it now would be s**t-for-brains stupid, because a bunch of states have passed laws that say that this will kick in as soon as Congress authorizes it, and if Congress authorizes it a week before the time change, it's going to be pandemonium for the tech industry.
The right time to vote on this is one week AFTER the time change that you're trying to avoid repeating a year from now.
Of for frack's sake (Score:4, Informative)
1) Farmers who have animals HATE daylight savings time. You think a hog, lamb, goat, or heifer watches a clock? Nope, change the time and you're just making the farmer change when they have to get up.
2) Regular workers do not care if it's dark out in the morning. Since America is car dependent they're probably driving to work anyway. In the cities with mass transit all it does is muck with people's schedules no different than the farmer because someone has to run the buses / trains.
3) Finally - "FER TEH CHILLDRUN" is kind of pointless because, if you REALLY wanted them to be safer you'd be doing what we did in the 1950's and 1960's: Force anyone building a subdivision to build proper roads AND SIDEWALKS WITH STREETLIGHTS. You'd also, I don't know, HIRE SOME CROSSING GUARDS. OH NOES YOU MIGHT MAKE PEOPLE BUILD INFRASTRUCTURE THAT FREES THEM TO WALK SAFELY!
Senator dimwit should be booted from office to go bleat his idiocy elsewhere.
Follow the KISS Principle (Score:3)
Just get rid of clock changes altogether, and set the time in reference to UTC and time zone without any "daylight savings" type adjustment. Each of the 24 time zones (-12 to +12) should be one hour off from it's neighbors, and should be straight (time doesn't care about state lines).
There also should be no half hour off zones. If that matters that much, just use UTC and forget about time zones altogether.
This makes sense and it's trump? (Score:2)
I'm actually all for this. It's an outdated thing that is not needed at all.
You need to set it to a date in the future like 2030 though so all computer systems can get the update without issue.
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If you really want to get rid of it, pick a way that means morning sun year-round.
New proposition (Score:2)
Make the seconds variable, not fixed. Then program an algorithm that slightly changes it every day throughout the year, so dawn, high noon and dusk happens in the exact same hour:minute everyday for each location. That way no one can complain anymore! /s
Who gives a flock? (Score:3)
Seriously. I don't want to change time twice a year because, in the end, the only thing it does is keeps me driving into the sun on both ends of the day for twice as long as I normally would. Right about the time the sun stops shining directly in my face *BOOM* time change, sun is back to shining directly in my face.
That said, in the dead of winter, most of us see no sun anyway. It's dark when we get to work, it's dark when we leave work, we sometimes catch a glimpse out a window during the day of what sunlight looks like, and daydream about summer when there's a few hours of it to enjoy after work. So, really, jumping through the time hoops is an exercise in futility for big portions of the country, and feels increasingly like just one more burden placed on all of us so that somebody, somewhere, can bitch about whose fault it is. Who cares? Winter is darkness. Stop fucking around with the clocks.
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I am sorry to hear about the length of your commute though. That sounds awful.
Tom Cotton is a loser stuck in the past (Score:3)
Split the difference (Score:2)
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Because then there wouldn't be anything for people to fight over!
Who is that passionate about DST? (Score:3)
I can see saying no, I won't vote for permanent Day Light Saving Time.
But why in God's green Earth would ANYONE think this is their line in the sand, and shout YOU SHALL NOT PASS!
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If the changeover is a problem, then I'd be fine with making winter time permanent. But , I don't really think the changeover is a problem. It happens on Saturday, so most workers have time to adjust, and once a year it means an extra hour of sleep during the season it matters most.
I'm eagerly awaiting it now, it's dark again when my
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Stop daylight savings time (Score:2)
We're 24 fucking 7.
DST doesn't save energy.
Stop trying to legislate science you idiots.
Then opt out. Simple as that. (Score:2)
Then opt out you dishonest fuck.
That's the whole god damned point of this.
The law currently says that states can opt out of DST but they can't have permanent DST.
With it permanent states can still opt out so this gives the choice back to the states.
You know STATES RIGHTS? That thing you lying fucks keep claiming to support but never actually do.
Impossible (Score:2)
It won't work. Make it permanent, then all those things to which people commute in the dark to get there, will adjust their hours for light during that travel, so in a few years you'll be right back to "standard" time with 9 AM to 4 PM school, 10 AM to 6 PM work, and you still won't be able to get your yard work done on weekdays after work + commute, and have it interfere with golf / fishing / whatever on the weekends - can't go play because mowing, weed whacking, leaf raking, hedge trimming, watering, et
Who Cares! (Score:2)
DST... Standard... who cares! Just pick one and stick with it. A year from now everyone will forget they cared.
THANK YOU! (Score:2)
So, thank you Senator Cotton! I really appreciate it.
Bypass the Senate... (Score:2)
Bypass the Senate. The law regarding DST requires Federal law to make DST permanent, but doesn't require any special law for states to eliminate DST entirely and go on Standard Time year-round. Cotton can't do a thing about that, and maybe he'll develop some sense when the choice is between Standard and DST year-round rather than DST year-round vs. only in the summer.
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The House was the obstacle last time, and would be this time too. Assuming Johnson allowed the House to meet at all... which he won't, since he'd have to swear in Grijalva [go.com] and the first thing the House will do then is demand release of all the Epstein files.
the reason it will never change is (Score:2)
In the US, the Congress's main mission is to stay elected; passing legislation that is contrary to that singular mission is not allowed and will never happen.
Hence, no change to DST is coming.
Split the difference! (Score:2)
Set the clocks half-way between DST and Standard, then leave them the fuck alone. Getting used to the time change twice a year sucks.
Apparently unanswered question (Score:2)
Does anyone know *why* this bill required unanimous consent in the first place?
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Going to permanent daylight saving time because you hate changing the clocks is like being sick of all the picture frames in your house being askew and solving the problem by gluing them to the wall--at a fifteen-degree angle.
Not really, no. Part of the year, DST feels better, and part of the year, standard time feels better. You have to choose one, but there's no need for it to be standard time.
DST is currently active for roughly eight months out of the year. Standard time is active for roughly four. All things being equal, DST is better for your sleep schedule twice as often as standard time is. So I would argue that permanent standard time is like gluing them at 10 degrees because your house keeps tipping, and you get ti
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The point of daylight savings is that everybody's clock changes at once, so we can all follow the sun during business hours without changing the "hours" sign in the shop window. If we stop switching the clock, it doesn't matter for your sleep schedule WHAT hour of the day we (accurately or not) claim it is. You could adjust your schedule so that the sun rises, on average, at 00:00, if you wanted.
So if you're not changing, there's no advantage of daylight saving time over standard time, or frickin' Tulsa t
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The point of daylight savings is that everybody's clock changes at once, so we can all follow the sun during business hours without changing the "hours" sign in the shop window. If we stop switching the clock, it doesn't matter for your sleep schedule WHAT hour of the day we (accurately or not) claim it is. You could adjust your schedule so that the sun rises, on average, at 00:00, if you wanted.
I mean ostensibly, yes, but the reality is that folks have expectations that businesses be open similar hours, and there's a decent amount of momentum involved that you'd have to fight if you changed it. Way easier for regions to pick the time that fits best with those expectations.
So if you're not changing, there's no advantage of daylight saving time over standard time, or frickin' Tulsa time or Hammer Time for that matter. However, standard time has the advantage that it's not wronger than it has to be on purpose.
Except in the large parts of the country where it at least arguably is, like the bottom half of California, all of middle and western Tennessee and Kentucky, everything to the right of Pennsylvania, etc.
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That is a great analogy. Next time someone brings it up in person conversation, I think I'll use it.
Thanks
Agreed.
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If you mean "permanent standard time" would be preferable, I agree. But permanent DST is better than changing the clocks twice a year.
Re:DST is DUMB (Score:5, Insightful)
Time keeping is hard science, so hard, that Mankind invented a whole academic subject about it, called astronomy. Every time keeping system will be a compromise, and each time keeping system will have its advantages and disadvantages. To think some hand waving and mumbling about "high noon" will solve that means that you don't know much about the subject.
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The reduction to ~24 time zones is a relatively recent phenomenon. Made when trade expanded over large areas and computers didn't exist. I believe we definitely should go back to the way it was pre 1800's. Virtually everyone get's their time from a computer or microcontroller now and most calculate time zones far better than people. Just allow every urban area to set their own time zone. The problem with permanent DST versus not is it hurts people on the extreme edges of the time zones. And those on one edg
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I want more evening hours of daylight, but I don't want to get up earlier.
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Any single senator can object to a UC request
You mean "unanimous consent" requires unanimity? Quelle surprise.
No thank you, Senator Cotton (Score:2)
For now.
Changing the time rules is always a pain, but changing them with only about a week of warning would have been absolute chaos.
So did Senator Cotton constructively propose some kind of amendment that would set the change to occur in February 2026, giving everyone plenty of warning?
Or did he just block this to destroy any forward movement on the subject?
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Not so great for traveling folks. I'm in favor of going back to the 18'th century and having every locality set noon at peak solar for their urban area. That way lunch is always around noon. Timezone calculators already go by urban area now. As you said most time keeping devices already pull from local sources or have timezone tables built in. Just keep legal agreements at UTC time to avoid confusion.