Europe's Self-Driving Cars Aren't Even at the Starting Line (bloomberg.com) 82
Europe's self-driving car industry has fallen far behind the United States and China. Self-driving taxis developed by Tesla and Waymo have become commonplace in several American cities. Waymo overtook Lyft's market share in San Francisco in June. China operates a thriving robotaxi industry led by Baidu, WeRide and Pony AI. Europe has no established player and runs pilot projects in only a handful of cities. The most promising is Volkswagen-backed Moia in Germany.
Markus Villig, chief executive of Estonian ride-hailing company Bolt Technology, told Brussels officials in mid-October that Europeans will move about their cities in American robotaxis by 2030 unless the European Commission acts quickly. He called for investment, regulatory clarity and restrictions on foreign competitors. Traffic laws governing self-driving tests vary at national and city levels across Europe. Commission President Ursula von der Leyen delivered a speech in Turin about AI adoption days before Villig's visit. Last week, Henna Virkkunen, the commission's technology chief, gathered carmakers and technologists to create a harmonized framework for self-driving cars. Waymo announced plans to provide driverless rides in the United Kingdom starting in 2026.
Markus Villig, chief executive of Estonian ride-hailing company Bolt Technology, told Brussels officials in mid-October that Europeans will move about their cities in American robotaxis by 2030 unless the European Commission acts quickly. He called for investment, regulatory clarity and restrictions on foreign competitors. Traffic laws governing self-driving tests vary at national and city levels across Europe. Commission President Ursula von der Leyen delivered a speech in Turin about AI adoption days before Villig's visit. Last week, Henna Virkkunen, the commission's technology chief, gathered carmakers and technologists to create a harmonized framework for self-driving cars. Waymo announced plans to provide driverless rides in the United Kingdom starting in 2026.
Oh noes (Score:3, Interesting)
If Europe is 10 years behind that's 10 more years when they don't suddenly have several million completely unemployable people.
I don't think folks realize that cab driver and Uber driver and whatnot is the absolute bottom of our society and that even if new magical jobs that nobody can describe shoot up to replace everything ai and machine learning and automation is taking that those Uber drivers aren't going to be able to get those jobs.
Best case scenario we are looking at doubling the unemployment rate permanently. To around 10 to 15%.
As a reminder 25% is what it took to start the two world wars.
Re: Oh noes (Score:2)
Strange reply.
Iâ(TM)m in Europe and found it an insightful comment.
I think many really donâ(TM)t realise the number of jobs on the line - my friends (devs/engineers) have all been made redundant, and out of market for over a year, with very limited dev jobs available.
One of them, highly skilled, has applied for over 400 jobs, hardly any replies, but those that do, state the "unprecedented number of applicants".
I think many devs will be sidelined to only a few lead/senior positions, who will spend
It's like "A City on Mars"? (Score:2)
But you ACKed it and propagated the vacuous Subject (even though the Subject was older than the troll's sock puppet, which confuses the situation). Maybe you could clarify your point, starting with a Subject that actually describes what you're trying to say?
My [fresh? tangential?] point is relating the self-driving cars application to the space-settlement problem as described in A City on Mars by the Weinersmiths. They actually like the idea of living in space, but think it needs to be based on a broad in
Re: Oh noes (Score:2)
I think many really donÃ(TM)t realise the number of jobs on the line
If you really want to preserve jobs, why not just ban the automated switchboard? Bring back the old days of needing people to manually connect callers. There aren't even enough people in the world to do that job. By your reasoning, unemployment should totally disappear. You'll pay a lot more for phone calls, and you'll wait longer to make them, but at least you got more jobs right?
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You forgot to copy/paste the whole bit how we will all be homeless with no access to electricity.
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You forgot to copy/paste the whole bit how we will all be homeless with no access to electricity.
Hey, I just got a notice from my power company that, later this week, our power is gonna be turned off overnight! They claim it's so they can work on improving the network's reliability and resilience, but MAYBE IT'S A LIE AND THE ELECTRICITY WILL NEVER COME BACK ON...
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Agreed. The USA is the land of "we should because we can" while Europe is the land of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should."
Any student of anthropology and industrialization has seen the data that correlates less industrialization to more leisure time and greater social connection, while greater industr4ialization correlates to greater income inequality and higher cost of living for the average person.
In other words, like all industrialization, AI benefits those who own the intellectual property d
All the problems I've had with taxis (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:All the problems I've had with taxis (Score:4, Insightful)
They will make it worse because the driver at least has an incentive for his vehicle to be clean. A robot taxi doesn't care if the previous passenger vomited in the seat.
Surveilling Shame. (Score:2)
have never been with the driver. Cleanliness is usually the the big issue and all the GPUs and sensors in the world won't fix this.
Gen Narcissism should get used to the fact that the Surveillance State bringing the ride itself, is always watching.
You know that whole 5-star rating system society loves to abuse? Goes both ways.
Best not act like a disrespectful cunt in a NotYourCar. You'll find your microchip getting shut off.
https://youtu.be/HJwFG3MsgEU?t... [youtu.be]
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Cleanliness is usually the the big issue and all the GPUs and sensors in the world won't fix this.
Why not? Car takes a photo of its own interior before the ride. Car takes a photo of its interior after the ride. GPUs analyze images to determine if the car has been damaged or significantly dirtied. If so, fine the rider for the cleaning fee and for the time the car is out of service.
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The problem occurs when the GPU is wrong. Try convincing a GPU that it's wrong.
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The problem occurs when the GPU is wrong. Try convincing a GPU that it's wrong.
If we don't trust the GPU in this hypothetical scenario I'm a little more concerned about the fact that it's also responsible for driving a car around other motorists and pedestrians.
That aside, you raise a different but not entirely new problem. Try convincing Uber that the driver is lying or mistaken when they accuse you of being the passenger who made a mess in the back of their car.
Apart from Wayve? (Score:5, Interesting)
A big part of operating in Europe is that it's harder to have a self driving car when you don't have huge, wide, straight roads with obnoxious anti-pedestrian laws. Thre are no jaywalkers in London, only pedestrians. This is why no one is currently operating in European cities.
And as for who will be first, Waymo is ni a race with the UK's Wayve as to who will start powering self driving cars in London first.
Also Europe in general is famed for stronger regulation, and the roads in the UK and most of Europe are significantly safer than the US. I don't especially want to be run over in the name of progress towards a future that I'm not sure I want.
Re:Apart from Wayve? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah was going to say, its hard enough for a *human* to get around in a car in a european city, between unmarked lanes and non-standard road sizes and sudden changes and super narrow one way streets through the medieval part of town, its not really a priority here...you can use a french city as a torture test for your self-driving if you want to see if it 'really works' I guess..
Re:Apart from Wayve? (Score:4, Informative)
I would love to see a self driving car lose its shit on Place de la concorde in Paris: an elongated almost roundabout with traffic lights and crossings in the middle, about 12 lanes and no lane markers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Or Britain's magic roundabout in Swindon. 7 roundabouts in one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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Yeah was going to say, its hard enough for a *human* to get around in a car in a european city, between unmarked lanes and non-standard road sizes and sudden changes and super narrow one way streets through the medieval part of town, its not really a priority here...you can use a french city as a torture test for your self-driving if you want to see if it 'really works' I guess..
You're describing some cities and not others. Of note, not all American cities have self driving cars either. There's no unified European cities. Yeah what you just described is Montpellier, probably not a good place for a robo taxi, on the flip side Europe has plenty of cities with wider roads designed (often by Americans themselves) to prioritise traffic.
It seems like most of what people know about Europe dates to their visiting of medieval tourist hotspots. I agree we probably won't be seeing robo taxis
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The idea that machines don't / won't beat humans at continuous vigilance and precise movement doesn't make much sense to me, since machines are great at that. The safety issue already favors automation and the gap will only grow. (More specifically, safety already favors certain self-driving implementations, like Waymo... obviously in general, "automation" can also be total crap i
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NYC by the way has also recently legalized jaywalking.
And:
continuous vigilance and precise movement ... since machines are great at that.
Right. Put these two factors together and you'll have a situation where nobody will be moving around in robotaxis, either European* or American. It'll be a bunch of Waymos waiting for some hobo wandering around in the middle of the road.
*Actually, the Europeans don't put up with out of control behavior nearly as much as Americans do. In American cities, it takes weeks for "support services" to move tent camps. On a visit to Amsterdam a few years ago, I watched them move a tent camp with water cannons.
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Waymo is also testing in Tokyo, a maze full of winding twisty passages that would put any European city to shame.
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Some years ago Nissan was testing self driving cars around London, but I don't know what happened to that. I remember watching something on NHK about Japanese efforts, and how they were considered behind the US ones, but more conservative and safer.
Tesla is being investigated yet again for it's "Mad Max" mode. I'm okay with Europe not having that.
Re:Apart from Wayve? (Score:5, Interesting)
It makes sense that SDC development is happening in America, because in America, only car transport is allowed. It has been decided that roadway infrastructure is going to be the only form of infrastructure to get public investment and the only one which will be accommodated by public policy, no matter what. The fact that SDC's aren't really going to move the needle here either, is a lost point because there's nowhere else for investment dollars to go.
Logically, mass transit moves so many more people than cars, that in terms of dollars per person moved, cars are nearly irrelevant by comparison by the raw numbers. A single subway line carries more people than the busiest highway in the world. And cities may have dozens of subway lines. Throwing money after cars, when the streets are already clogged with cars, is just a waste of money, self-driving or not. So European cities are more likely to invest in things like the Grand Paris express, a completely new subway system (which, notably, is electrified and self-driving). By comparison, self-driving cars are just a technology that's seen as a way to increase the number of cars on the road, increase congestion, increase wear and tear on the roads, all for the "benefit" of saving the salary of the drivers, which is an important source of low-wage employment, and it's just not compelling at all.
Having ridden Waymo a lot, and also driven through European cities, I actually think they could navigate through European cities just fine, and also safer than human drivers. It's not a technology limitation IMO. It's just...why. At best, you save the cost of a driver, but even then, you simply can't improve overall transport efficiency vs. taxis/Ubers, which they already have.
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These companies started in San Francisco first. The idea that SF is full of huge wide straight roads might strike a native as rather odd. Anyone who has attempted to drive in SF can tell you that it's no picnic -- not just pedestrians, but bicycles, weird traffic lights, trolleys, trolley buses, motorcycles, at grade railroad crossings, double parked trucks on narrow streets, all ignoring any semblance of rules.
The bigger challenges in Europe are regulations and bad weather, neither of which seem likely t
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By American standards, SF is a tough drive. By London standards it is not.
Just about every residential street here is wide enough for one car, we have many pedestrians, bikes, buses, the odd tram, white van men, so many road works, areas with no road paint, weird junctions, mini roundabouts, yes level crossings too, a ferry, same so on.
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But then again, you did erroneously imply that pedestrians are safer in European streets (absurdly untrue- per-capita death rate for a pedestrian is double the US rate in Europe)
Some robotaxies would do you folks good, I think.
And some air conditioners, while you're at it. Your heat-stroke death rate is fucking insane.
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But then again, you did erroneously imply that pedestrians are safer in European streets (absurdly untrue- per-capita death rate for a pedestrian is double the US rate in Europe)
Where on earth have you got your statistics?
Because they don't remotely match any of the ones I'm looking at, especially for my par of Europe (UK).
The USA has murder roads by comparison for drivers and especially pedestrians, and that's even given how few of the latter you have. I mean speaking of which you can get to zero pedestria
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I was tabulating for Europe-wide- I didn't see if I could, or should make the claim about the UK specifically.
And that's kind of the catch to my argument, anyway.
Europe's a big fucking place, just like the United States.
You don't want to compare Britain to the entire United States anymore than you want us to compare North Dakota (0.63/100k) to the whole of Europe.
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The rate for "Europe as a whole" that I synthesized included non-EU states, which, predictably considerably raised the EU average, though I didn't include the UK, because it was late, I was tired, and for some reason I had decided that the British didn't consider themselves European anymore. That would have helped considerably with its 70 million at 0.55/100k
This wasn't meant as an attack on certain European no
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I was talking about western Europe, but as you say the EU27 is worse than the UK but still better than the US.
As for the US not having murder roads, you might want to look at the general death rate per capita, per unit of distance, however you like it, it's not very good.
You do have cities of a different nature and the different nature is you legislate for horrendous road design which is somehow incredibly expensive, unusually dangerous, hostile to pedestrians, bikes and public transport and tops it off wor
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I was talking about western Europe, but as you say the EU27 is worse than the UK but still better than the US.
And the UK is still twice as bad as the Netherlands. You'd have to be just suicidal to walk on those roads! /s
As for the US not having murder roads, you might want to look at the general death rate per capita, per unit of distance, however you like it, it's not very good.
You just aren't going to bend.
Per unit of distance is obviously going to be in our favor, as we drive more, at current fatality rates, than you do.
You do have cities of a different nature and the different nature is you legislate for horrendous road design which is somehow incredibly expensive, unusually dangerous, hostile to pedestrians, bikes and public transport and tops it off work not being very good at shifting cars.
Oh, shut the fuck up, dude.
That's dipshit ethnocentric drivel, nothing more.
Many places in Europe are over twice as bad as us, and you're twice as bad as someone else.
The design of mixing high speed features (wide, straight, multiple lanes) with mixed use low speed features (lots of intersections, make turnings for shops etc) is objectively poor.
objectively?
Look at it this way- for all of your EU mandated safety measures, how
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And the UK is still twice as bad as the Netherlands. You'd have to be just suicidal to walk on those roads! /s
Your argument is it's somehow OK that American has murder roads because one much safer country is worse than another much safer country? I don't get it.
Anyway I dispute your "2x" numbers. I combined https://w3.unece.org/PXWeb/en/... [unece.org] with population data and American isn't looking very good. Deaths per million (population from wikipedia):
America: 21.7
Italy: 8.4
Germany: 8.4
Poland: 13.8
France: 5.8
Spain
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Your argument is it's somehow OK that American has murder roads because one much safer country is worse than another much safer country? I don't get it.
No, I'm saying that all things being relative, the UK has murder roads compared to several countries in the EU as well. How can you not get it?
Your complaint about our roads is that we have 1.5 pedestrian fatalities per 100k population, which is 300% that of the UK.
Well, the UK is 200% that of the Netherlands. Why are you exempt from having murder roads, or have you drawn a magical line in the sand where roads are murdery? Where's the line in the sand for Poland's roads, or do they get a pass?
Your label
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No, I'm saying that all things being relative, the UK has murder roads compared to several countries in the EU as well.
I get what you're saying and I'm saying it's a specious argument. The UK is one of the best in western Europe and indeed the world. Better places exist, but it's ranked very high. The US is substantially worse than the entire EU, and much much worse than western Europe.
Rationalize that all you want, but the US is not very good in this regard.
Anyway I dispute your "2x" numbers.
That the US w
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I get what you're saying and I'm saying it's a specious argument. The UK is one of the best in western Europe and indeed the world. Better places exist, but it's ranked very high. The US is substantially worse than the entire EU, and much much worse than western Europe.
I see- your arbitrary line is better than my arbitrary line.
Let's just look at it this way- you're more likely to be a victim of a violent crime walking in London than you are be killed by a car in the US as a pedestrian.
Your violent crime rate is downright impressive. Talk about murder streets.
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I see- your arbitrary line is better than my arbitrary line.
Yeah? I mean if you're trying to see if your country is doing well or badly then you are best of comparing it to countries that are in some way comparable. Compared to much of western Europe, yeah the UK is doing decently well in this regard. Not the best, but pretty highly ranked.
That seems reasonable. Our infrastructure ought to be much better than an ex Soviet state with a fraction of the gdp per capita. The only point of making such a compariso
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Yeah? I mean if you're trying to see if your country is doing well or badly then you are best of comparing it to countries that are in some way comparable. Compared to much of western Europe, yeah the UK is doing decently well in this regard. Not the best, but pretty highly ranked.
And still twice as bad as the Netherlands, and the EU on average? 5x worse than the Netherlands!
Why do you guys suck so bad?
London has 116 murders from a population of 15 million. The US has 41000 road deaths from a population of 340e6. So you're 15 times as likely to die on the roads in America as you are likely to be murdered in London. But if you insist on just pedestrians that was just 7500, meaning you're only 3x as likely to die as a pedestrian in America as you are to be murdered in London.
Well, I said victim of violent crime, not murder ;)
Speaking of which, you're almost twice as likely to be murdered in London than to be killed by a car. You people have funny priorities.
The part you don't fucking get about any of this, is the cultures are different.
You have a safety culture. Every fucking square inch of your country is covered in CCTV cameras that the police can
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Why do you guys suck so bad?
Same reason you suck so bad at logic.
Well, I said victim of violent crime, not murder ;)
Yes and I already addressed that and pointed out why it was a disingenuous point ;)
Speaking of which, you're almost twice as likely to be murdered in London than to be killed by a car. You people have funny priorities.
You really struggle with numbers, don't you?
Murders over the last year in London: 104--116 depending on where you draw the boundary
Road deaths per year in London in 2024 110.
Last
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Uh, try driving in Italy.
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A big part of operating in Europe is that it's harder to have a self driving car when you don't have huge, wide, straight roads with obnoxious anti-pedestrian laws.
I would have agreed with you if I hadn't ridden a bicycle around SF a few months back. I mean, sure the roads are wider, which means you just get delivery drivers double parking everywhere, people with gigantic cars everywhere, people driving faster, cars always parked on the side of the road which limits your visibility everywhere. I get you on the pedestrian thing, but I suspect that is because only crazy people try to walk (or ride a bike) around the downtown area. Then you have the street cars, and the
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Meaning if you cream someone who is jaywalking, you're still the one at fault. Though they'll get a jaywalking ticket to go with their injury
Whatabout (Score:2)
Re:Whatabout (Score:4, Interesting)
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Very likely. My take is there is no "falling behind" at all and this "story" is just sensationalism.
Europe has public transport (Score:5, Informative)
Europeans will move about their cities in American robotaxis by 2030
If the trend continues, Europeans will move about their cities in trains, trams and buses, also on bikes.
Most European cities want cars out, self-driving or not.
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Indeed. I cannot even remember the last time I took a taxi. There is simply no need.
Ever traveled on the roads in Europe? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Sort of the unintended consequence of having firmly laid out rules and signage. Everyone feels entitled to a specific outcome without having to resort to cooperation.
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I remember watching huge travel buses making a blind turn (no stopping) around a corner on a road that would be considered way too narrow in the US.
While this is indeed a thing it is worth remembering that edge cases have nothing at all to do with rollouts of such technology. Most major cities in Europe would have little problem supporting self-driving taxis, especially outside of their pedestrianised town centres which may be medieval in some cases. Sure I had to do a 3 point turn to get around a corner in Montpellier just to navigate, and I'll bet you a dollar an robotaxi will need to be fished out of a canal in Amsterdam in its first year, but there
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Why are there stop signs at all? There are countries in Europe that consider roads to require stop signs as a sign of poor design and flag the intersection for a change. There are no stop signs in any city where I live. There is one official stop in Paris, but there is no sign there because of the novelty of it it gets stolen. All-way stops are by far the strangest road design in the world and they are virtually unique to North America.
That's not to say there are no poor intersections in Europe. They just t
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In Rome, right of way is given to the driver capable of shouting the most offensive insult in the shortest time. It often involves your dick falling off, and bouncing back to your ass.
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There are worse situations like that in Chinese driving, yet they have self-driving cars and even trucks delivering goods: https://www.youtube.com/shorts... [youtube.com]
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Now imagine all that with with some AI hallucinations in the mix.
You think that large language model technology is the same as the tech that runs autonomous car mapping and obstacle avoidance? lol.
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Waymo has the honk part down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
(well sort of).
Ok (Score:5, Insightful)
So last time I heard Milwaukee practically has no public transport for all intents and purposes. Is that still the case?
In Zurich on the other hand you get from anywhere in the city to anywhere else in the city in 15 mins.
Self-driving cars? Who cares?!
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Last time I was there, I remember downtown being fairly walkable but I didn't enjoy driving there. So I assume that's probably still the case. This country hates public transit.
Re: Ok (Score:2)
Public infrastructure in general?
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Don't you know funding infrastructure is communism? If anything does fail you just blame democrats or DEI or the boogey man of the month.
Bzzt. Wrong. (Score:1)
re. Tesla, they are only in a small area of Austin, with human drivers always in the car.
"Not only are the Tesla cabs limited to a highly-mapped out and small area of a single city — at least for the time being — but they’re also supervised by a human “safety monitor” sitting in the front passenger seat who can intervene at any moment to stop a crash. The ser
EasyMile is *way* behind... (Score:2)
Maybe (Score:5, Insightful)
The principal reason for this is that lots of us here in Europe neither want, nor need them.
Mass transport in Europe is better funded and more integrated in general. It's not a second class option, especially the major cities, where often you don't need a car at all, or to be stuck in traffic in another car, whether it has a driver or not.
The geography, and especially the topology of European cites, with road networks that are significantly different to most North American and modern Chinese cities aren't amenable to autonomous cars that aren't always good at navigating those topologies. Think of how bad some of Elon's dustbins are at it.
... and finally, those of us who aren't using public transport might just sometimes want to just drive, because there are lots more enjoyable driving experiences in Europe.
There just appears to be this constant inability in the minds of corporate America that other places don't have the social conditions, seemingly lack of concern for driver or pedestrian safety, or the physical characteristics of the USA to necessitate what they are selling. These are not European defects, merely differences, and we're quite happy with them, thanks.
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The principal reason for this is that lots of us here in Europe neither want, nor need them.
This makes no sense at all. Even if you don't want them, if Europe wants to continue running its economy on car exports it doesn't take a genius to see that developing your own driverless system might be useful. Further, there are plenty of uses in Europe beyond personal transport (e.g. long distance trucking) where a working self-driving system would be useful. There are loads of trucks criss-crossing Europe. The idea it is a public transport utopia is myopic.
Perhaps even more importantly, autonomous drivi
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Pedestrians are twice as likely to be killed on a European street than a US street.
American Taxis? (Score:2)
American cars have so far been struggling to even get their ADAS features approved for use. Tesla can't even enable FSD approved in most jurisdictions. Who on earth thinks Europe is ready to let robo taxis run wild here?
Now a bigger questions: Why does every market need to home bake every technology? As much as it pains me to support the idea of buying anything American in 2025, it's not such a major problem if we end up using Waymo robotaxis is it?
Disclaimer: This post is posted on my Chinese / Taiwanese b
Self-driving cars are driven by psychopaths (Score:2)
Driving is a social activity.
You stop for someone who wants to cross the road. You don't just follow traffic laws and keep traffic flowing.
This requires a small amount of direct communication. Eye contact. Hand gestures.
As a bicyclist and pedestrian, I have often had to wave cars along when they've stopped for me. I can't do that to a self-driving car.
You also have to assess potentially dangerous situations, that are out of the ordinary.
AI is notoriously bad at being useful at handling situations they have
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Driving is a social activity.
You stop for someone who wants to cross the road. You don't just follow traffic laws and keep traffic flowing.
This requires a small amount of direct communication. Eye contact. Hand gestures.
As a bicyclist and pedestrian, I have often had to wave cars along when they've stopped for me. I can't do that to a self-driving car.
You also have to assess potentially dangerous situations, that are out of the ordinary.
AI is notoriously bad at being useful at handling situations they have not been trained on.
I'm pretty good with the hand gestures.
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You don't just follow traffic laws and keep traffic flowing.
.... It seriously escaped your consideration that the traffic laws might just say, "stop and don't kill the person crossing the road?"
Maybe im wrong (Score:2, Insightful)
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Who cares? (Score:2)
Good (Score:2)
Because if you have extensive, reliable public transit, you don't need self-driving cars, which are simply toys to increase traffic.
not needed in Europe (Score:1)
Selfdriving in Sicily? (Score:1)
Good thing (Score:2)