You Can't Leave Unless You Buy Something (sfgate.com) 195
An anonymous reader quotes a report from SFGATE: At the Safeway on San Francisco's King Street, you now can't leave the store unless you buy something. The Mission Bay grocery store recently installed new anti-theft measures at the entrance and exit. New gates at the entrance automatically swing open when customers walk in, but they're set to trigger an alarm if someone attempts to back out. And if you walk into Safeway and change your mind about grocery shopping, you might find yourself trapped: Another gate that only opens if you scan your receipt blocks the store's sole exit.
During my Monday visit, I purchased a kombucha and went through the check-out line without incident. (No high-tech gates block the exit if you go through the line like normal.) But for journalism's sake, I then headed back into the store to try going out the new gate. While I watched some customers struggle with the new technology, my receipt scanned immediately. The glass doors slid open, and I was free. But if, like this person on the San Francisco subreddit recounted, I hadn't bought anything, my only means of exit would have been to beg the security guard to let me out.
During my Monday visit, I purchased a kombucha and went through the check-out line without incident. (No high-tech gates block the exit if you go through the line like normal.) But for journalism's sake, I then headed back into the store to try going out the new gate. While I watched some customers struggle with the new technology, my receipt scanned immediately. The glass doors slid open, and I was free. But if, like this person on the San Francisco subreddit recounted, I hadn't bought anything, my only means of exit would have been to beg the security guard to let me out.
So, you're a self-described journalist (Score:4, Insightful)
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The article has the sentence "No high-tech gates block the exit if you go through the line like normal" in the paragraph before the reddit reference.
The "journalist" can't remember what they wrote ten seconds ago, can't read their own text, or is repeating stupid and incorrect claims to make their boring article seem less pointless. I'm going with the first option.
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These types of store are actually common in parts of Europe, and there are some in the UK. People end up squeezing through the checkout queue to get out.
Not doing reporting legwork (Score:2)
Examine the news article
- Remove all the feelings and emotional appeals
- Highlight the facts
- TODO - See if getting one or more expert opinions outside of the store and its industry representatives would help
- TODO - A little Googling for laws or city ordinances regulating locking a customer in a store or preventing a customer who has committed no crime from leaving the store
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If there's a gate I can't get out of and I just have to walk out past people instead, sure. Why, what do you do? Get stuck and cry about it on the Internet?
If there was a gate I couldn't get past without a receipt, I would:
1) Ask an employee to open the gate for me, or
2) Follow another customer who was leaving
I wouldn't:
Get in a fucking line behind people, wait for them to buy fucking groceries, and then explain to the cashier "Sorry, I'm not actually buying anything, I was just too fucking helpless to ask someone to open the gate for me or follow out another customer."
But you do you, lol.
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Or you just say excuse me and squeeze past the people at check-out. Why would I explain myself to a cashier?
If they think I did something wrong it's up to them to talk to me and prove it. In the US it may be different... You lot realky adopted guilty until you prove yoir innocence but I don't live like that.
Re:So, you're a self-described journalist (Score:4, Insightful)
Why illegal? Because restricting freedom of movement is kidnapping. Not to mention fire hazards.
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They have one of these at the safeway in my town that is near the University.
There is a gate, and a receipt scanner, but it only blocks half the exit; you can still just walk past it. But the sign does say to scan receipt to exit. You'd have to be an exceptionally compliant person to feel trapped.
I use the pharmacy in the back of the store, and I never scan my receipt before exiting. I would refuse if they asked me to. But they wouldn't.
But it wouldn't be kidnapping, it would be false imprisonment.
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How is this kidnapping, or false imprisonment? You can simply walk out - your decision to avoid tripping an alarm is the only thing keeping you in the store.
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This system is illegal, and I highly doubt this story.
Why illegal? Because restricting freedom of movement is kidnapping. Not to mention fire hazards.
Wow, you literally have no idea what this is.
You are not prevented from leaving, simply walk thru the gate - yes, the alarm sounds, but so what? It isn't an Indiana Jones-level trap with rolling holders or poison darts to prevent escape!
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Scan your receipt to leave (Score:4, Insightful)
If you want to walk out through the "enter" door you need to scan your receipt.
But you can leave by walking through the line past the tills and scan nothing.
So... what's the problem here?
Re: Scan your receipt to leave (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: Scan your receipt to leave (Score:4)
Such a lovely place
Such a lovely place
Such a lovely face
Plenty of room at the Safeway San Francisco
Any time of year
Any time of year
You can find it here
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Welcome to the market California! (Score:5, Funny)
You can check out any time you like or you can never leave.
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This is very surprising... (Score:5, Interesting)
I work for a Vons (part of Albertons and Safeway) in San Diego. We are specifically directed to not attempt to stop someone from leaving. It's for safety. Anything they are stealing is not worth a physical confrontation. We're directed to use customer service (lol right) to make sure they know we are aware they are there. We often joke that we're directed to offer a bag, shall we place that in your car for you, want to take anything else, let me hold that door for you. It's pretty insane but the last thing anyone wants is violence.
The last thing you really want to do is try to stop someone from leaving. They could turn violent and who knows how things will go down at that point.
I'm not saying this isn't happening but that it seems counter to what I've been told via training materials the company makes us do yearly. We even fired a store manager last year for attempting to prevent someone (wrongly accused by the way) of leaving with a shopping cart of groceries.
Re:This is very surprising... (Score:4, Insightful)
The whole thing is about perception, it wont really stop people who planned to shop-lift but the number of spur of the moment shop-lifters will drop like a rock because of the perceived risk of getting caught will be much higher. It's a cheap solution with a measurable positive economical effect for the store.
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The whole thing is about perception, it wont really stop people who planned to shop-lift but the number of spur of the moment shop-lifters will drop like a rock because of the perceived risk of getting caught
Isn't this in San Francisco, where they refuse to prosecute anyone for theft under $800 each time? And where for some strange reason, there are suddenly thousands of incidents of people walking out of grocery, convenience, pharmacy, electronics stores, department stores, and everything else? Sometimes in gangs of rampaging youths, and more often individuals? Casually wheeling out all manner of merchandise, all day long, because it's a lawless city and a free-for-all?
Maybe the problem is not with the doors..
Re:This is very surprising... (Score:4, Informative)
I'm in Texas and we also have incidents of shoplifting - thousands even - "rampaging youths", "casual wheelers", and all the rest of the scenarios you so vividly describe.
I expect you will tell me this is because they've also stopped enforcing the law in Texas, but for the benefit of our readers I'd like to clarify that they have not stopped enforcement. (Except for white collar crimes, which have cost me a lot more than shoplifters.)
Although it does seem weird the governor is sending the Texas National Guard to fight crime everywhere but Texas. Almost like the point isn't solving crime...
Re:This is very surprising... (Score:4, Informative)
Isn't this in San Francisco, where they refuse to prosecute anyone for theft under $800 each time?
That is one of those "Goebbels truths", a lie repeated often enough becomes the truth.
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SF refuses to prosecute for theft under $950? (Score:2)
An interesting study in unintended consequences [growsf.org]:
Texas arrests and prosecutes differently (Score:2)
Texas charges as a misdemeanor, but treats shoplifting [texas.gov] the same as any other theft:
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It's a cheap solution with a measurable positive economical effect for the store.
Some branches of the Co-op (a medium-small supermarket) have a life-sized cardboard cutout of a police officer in the window. It's the same one in every store.
It works. Not a lot, but it does actually reduce shoplifting.
Oh, I've seen that [gettyimages.com]!
Re: This is very surprising... (Score:2)
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I work for a Vons (part of Albertons and Safeway) in San Diego. We are specifically directed to not attempt to stop someone from leaving. It's for safety. Anything they are stealing is not worth a physical confrontation.
This is not just for crazies. I think there's something deep in the human/animal psyche that wants to lash out when it feels trapped. Like a feline in a crate, I feel the impotent urge to claw my way out of Ikea mazes and shopping malls without clearly designated exits. If somebody blocked my path in one of those already antagonistically designed environments, the pressure to react would double.
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I work for a Vons (part of Albertons and Safeway) in San Diego. We are specifically directed to not attempt to stop someone from leaving. It's for safety. Anything they are stealing is not worth a physical confrontation.
This is not just for crazies. I think there's something deep in the human/animal psyche that wants to lash out when it feels trapped. Like a feline in a crate, I feel the impotent urge to claw my way out of Ikea mazes and shopping malls without clearly designated exits. If somebody blocked my path in one of those already antagonistically designed environments, the pressure to react would double.
OK. You're not crazy.
Just calm down.
Everything will be fine.
We have someone on the phone who would like to talk to you.
Re: This is very surprising... (Score:2)
the security guard at the door wears a stab proof vest and is 6'5" tall. this is not like your neighborhood grocery store, this is downtown literally across the street from a major train station
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I work for a small chain of grocery stores and I feel it's likely we get more shoplifting at our stores because of big chain store's policy of basically doing nothing about shoplifting. Von's could easily afford to hire specialized security people to deal with the problem of shoplifting at all of their stores as we have done but they choose to not to which just emboldens the shoplifters. Plus giving criminals free reign of the place likely creates a work environment that feels less safe to its employees.
Liv
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Let me guess, nobody there is armed? That's probably also "corporate policy"?
I bet there are customers who are armed, as a matter of their own personal policy. When I go to the store, I am always carrying. Based on the local police reports where I live, the petty criminals who would steal shit at the grocery store are also usually armed (but illegally).
Not sure why you want armed guards at Safeway. No amount of groceries is worth anyone's life. And legally, Safeway cannot stop, search, or impede you -- certainly cannot lock you in -- unless they have probable cause. (Not just "reaso
Social order is more important than theft (Score:3, Insightful)
I hear this kind of statement all the time, and it strikes me as yet another excuse for inaction. The issue here is not the cost of groceries, but whether you want to live in a society where theft is normal. If you are against theft, you will need to enforce that if it is challenged.
Re: Social order is more important than theft (Score:2)
If society doesnâ(TM)t want this, they should pay more taxes and hire more police and spend on other schemes to provide more opportunities and education, etc. Doing it through the back door and hiding the cost in the price of your groceries is piecemeal and less effective.
Debugging (Score:2)
We have to debug the problem and figure out where the actual issue lies. My analysis is that it is in two places: (1) a lack of consequences, which is more the courts than police, and (2) an outbreak of mental health problems which is typical to both Late Stage Democracy and genetically heterogenous societies.
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whether you want to live in a society where theft is normal
We already live in a society where theft is normal. I'm not talking bout shoplifting here though.
This particular safeway (Score:5, Informative)
This safeway is directly across the street from the main "downtown" caltrain station and also two muni rail lines (n judah and ... 4th st? 3rd st?) it's extremely high traffic and they regularly taze resisting shoplifters ,like, a couple times a day. It's both high revenue (mission bay is 14,000 pop/sq mile) and high "loss"/shoplifting. It doesn't surprise me at all that they've had to resort to this. Also "unhoused" encampments pop up along the southern side of the caltrain station on the regular as well as nearby overpasses which.... there's a lot of correlation between that and shoplifting. This is not a bright sunny suburban grocery store, it is part of the ground floor of a huge urban complex building with 600 condos on the 4th-16th floors a couple blocks from Uber and OpenAI headquarters, major genetech offices etc. Context matters.
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You mean vagrant?
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Are they vagrant if they aren't moving around?
Re: This particular safeway (Score:2)
Do you know that Jainism holds that being unhoused is part of the path to enlightenment? If I'm Jain, can you stop me from being unhoused without violating my religious freedom?
If you want to blame someone ... (Score:4, Insightful)
.... then blame the shoplifters. And their enablers ("stores have insurance, what's the big deal?").
Trust me, stores don't want to have to do stuff like this.
Re: If you want to blame someone ... (Score:2)
Why should I trust you, when stores act like they're doing me a big favor by letting me shop there?
I don't want to blame anyone (Score:2, Troll)
As for shoplifting booze since a fuck wad like you is bound to bring it up, people over the age of 21 don't steal booze for the hell of it they're using alcohol to cope with the misery of modern Life. And kids do it here and there and that's nothing more than a youthful indiscretion. Alcohol is cheap and ultra high profit and don't
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That is essentially SNAP with all the "red tape" (due diligence) cut out. I'm guessing they won't allow that, because they'd like to maintain that diligence.
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.. then blame the shoplifters
How did shoplifters force a store, any store, to potentially understaff their stores (adequate staffing being, time and again shown in virtually every training videos that exists / has been leaked online to be an effective deterrent? How did the shoplifters force a store to take a method that has real potential problems?
They didn't. Only the store choose to do that.
This "SOLELY X makes Y do Z" thing is not logical.
Fire Marshal (Score:5, Insightful)
A locked exit? The fire marshal will shut that down quickly.
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A locked exit? The fire marshal will shut that down quickly.
It's not a door. Unless you're in a wheel chair you can step over the barrier. If you are in the wheel chair just running into is likely to topple it over. It's not a fire safety risk. It's normal in many countries, including places like the UK which has significantly stronger fire safety codes than the USA.
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It has to open in a fire. I can't imagine otherwise; however, I can imagine a slim chance it stops working when the power goes out... but unlikely. Cut the power or light a fire and you are out. Or simply ask an employee. If they won't let you out, call the police which likely they would be doing since you probably are stealing if they won't let you out... or you're robbing them and they don't want you to beat/shoot them to get out... I bet a gun gets you out pretty fast.
What I'd like to know is if they
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This is a little bit of improper maintenance away from being a death trap.
If a 1m high barrier kills you then you were probably going to die at the next 4th of July firework anyway.
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"Beg" (Score:5, Insightful)
Nice loaded language. Chances are the begging would consist of a brief glance, and maybe a gesture. But I went to the secondary link to check it out anyway.
I sheepishly asked a nearby employee "how do I leave" and they asked "did you buy anything" and I said no, they jokingly told for me to put my hands up and eventually fobbed me out the glass door.
About what I would have expected. Now it suck's that it's there, but how bad is crime that even stores with these scanners are at risk of closure due to theft rates? The Fillmore store comes to mind. "Theft and safety". Sounds like they're trying last ditch efforts to not bail on yet another neighborhood.
Meanwhile all the Safeway stores in my city still have self checkout and no visible security.
Re: "Beg" (Score:2)
Want to bet the stuff they throw out every day dwarfs the theft?
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Kidnapping? (Score:2)
If you're prevented from leaving, isn't that technically kidnapping?
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Kidnapping requires the a force component (real or implicit) as the means of coercion.
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They're not actually prevented from leaving, they just have to ask the personnel to open the door. Like when you are in an airport; after going through security check, there is no way back, you'd have to ask if you want to leave.
Re: Kidnapping? (Score:2)
In what airport? Every one I've been through, there are exits you can just walk out from the secure area. Often right next to the checkpoint.
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Odds are if you really push it just sounds an obnoxious alarm while letting you out. Kind of like pushing against the gates at my walmart to go out the entrance area rather than the checkouts.
I just give zero hoots and do it anyways.
Fire code violation (Score:5, Informative)
You cannot lock customers in. It is a safety issue.
The doors MUST open when pushed against. Even automatic sliding doors have safety hinges that allow you to push them open in the event of an emergency or power failure.
Beyond that, refusing to let someone leave could constitute false imprisonment.
Locking yourself in a store with a criminal is a good way to escalate a situation to violence. Sounds risky for employees and other customers nearby.
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> Locking yourself in a store with a criminal is a good way to escalate a situation to violence. Sounds risky for employees and other customers nearby.
"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you. You're locked in here with me."
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You cannot lock customers in. It is a safety issue.
No, you cannot lock customers in *during a fire*. These things are normal all over the world. The mechanism inside disables in case of a fire and you can simply open it. Also you're not "locked" in unless you're a midget stuck in a wheel chair. The barrier here is small enough that most people can step over it.
Aunty Wainwright would be proud (Score:2)
Life imitates art I guess. Aunty Wainwright did this back in the 80s in her shop on Last of the summer wine. Although her method was a bit more hands on and personable.
Common in the EU (Score:4, Insightful)
They aren't fun, but aren't new either.
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This is common everywhere outside of the USA it seems. I've seen them in Australia, India, Egypt and China too.
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Not in Germany. This would be illegal.
User Unami disagrees [slashdot.org]
Why not just walk past the line at the checkout? (Score:2)
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Same in Italy, not really a big deal, you just keep your receipt in your hand as you walk out, easy-peasy.
It's on self-checkout, if you carried items in your hands to register, you've only got a bag or two - if you brought a cart full of food, you've only exit with the cart - just don't stuff your receipt in your pants pocket or stuff it in a random grocery bag...
Grocery stores operate on TINY profit margins, they can't easily absorb rampant shoplifting or hiring a bunch of security guards.
Check your receipt. (Score:2)
Its an obvious hazard if the door is firmly locked. If it just needs to be pushed open and sets off an alarm then they are probably within fire regulations. But given its Safeway I doubt they would care. They would just wait until someone filed a complaint.
Did you check the receipt to make sure you weren't overcharged. Safeway's computers are programmed to regularly charge a different price than the one on the shelf or in their ad or in their app. You need to check each item to make sure you aren't overcha
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Unless this is a really stupid and deeply illegal design, you can just push through. Fire-safety demands that. They are free to sound an alarm though.
What does the Fire Marshall think of it? (Score:2)
This likely violates fire code. I wouldn't be surprised if the practice abruptly ends.
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No way they didn't plan for Fires. Many decades of automatic escape doors existed to handle fire.
You simply light up near the smoke alarm and you get out.
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All the fire doors I've seen are opened like normal doors, they just sound an alarm afterwards.
Where are you seeing smoke-activated "escape doors"? Are you sure that wasn't a theme park or TV show?
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There are multiple ways to leave the store - you ask the guard to open the gate, you walk through a register line, or simply go through the security gate and ignore the alarm.
I don't think anyone minds if you trip the security alarm on your way out of a burning building...
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This likely violates fire code. I wouldn't be surprised if the practice abruptly ends.
How is this any different than a fire exit say, in a movie theater or office building?
If you walk thru the gate and don't scan a receipt, an alarm sounds as you exit, just like those doors that have a sign that reads "Emergency Exit - Alarm will sound if door opened"
I saw this type of security in Italian grocery stores in and around Milan (I was there on a business trip), they weren't in what I would consider high-crime areas, and I can't speak to how common they are in Europe, but it didn't seem like an is
Corporate law enforcement (Score:2)
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And what would you expect that enforcement to look like?
With our soft-on-crime politicians, Safeway should consider getting out of the business of selling legitimate products, and just start scamming people. They've got enough money they'll be immune from prosecution, and if all else fails, they can just get a presidential pardon.
Shoplifters should be tackled and arrested (Score:2, Troll)
Entrances can be one way. Exits can be one way. Shoplifters should be tackled and arrested. If they resist, they should be subdued. If they act violently toward a security guard, shooting them can be reasonable.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/san-... [go.com]
Notice they do not dead name the shoplifter, and they call Brown by male pronouns.
One shot by the security guard. No charges.
The lefty Wikipedia article on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
I certainly don't support the killing, but Brown did his very best to
So.. You can still exit through the exit.. (Score:2)
Ok, great.
People not following the standard enter and exit doors always bugged me, and lately there seems to be a lot of people that have no respect for common social etiquette like this little simple thing. For instance it's right there over the two doors at walmart 'Enter' and 'Exit', yet people seem fine nearly walking into you by going the wrong way
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It would help if they didn't put the enter/exit doors on the wrong side. Never figured out why Wal-Mart is using UK traffic rules in the US.
Every other store with two doors put Enter on the right and Exit on the left. It's not the "standard door" if you're not following the standard.
Roach motel (Score:2)
You can go in, but you can't go out.
Technical Solution (Score:2)
Face scan everyone who enters the store.
The police can match them by driver's license.
(Not to mention all the other scan/ID stuff the store can provide in addition to the entrance ID and activity record).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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There's a major grocery store chain in Texas called H-E-B. They've got facial recognition running at the entrances and exits. They want to make sure everyone knows it. Walk by and you might get some random red box around your face for no obvious reason. It looks like the equipment they have only identifies one face at a time, though. Either way, I can't see how it serves any real purpose.
Where I've seen this, the employee scans a card (Score:2)
... and the gate opens and lets you out. What happens if you can't find an employee? I don't know, every time I've encountered this at a safeway that's implemented it, there was an employee standing next to the gate machine to let me out. I've only seen this implemented in the self-checkout.
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I've never been to a Safeway, but every other store that has barriers, the barriers will fold away if you insistently push on them. Typically with something like "Push in case of emergency" written on it.
Unlawful detainment (Score:2)
If a store does this and they give you any guff at all about being let out you pull out your phone, call 911 and report a kidnapping in progress. Because that's what it is. The store's within it's rights to deny you entrance, but to deny you exit they have to have reason to believe you've broken the law in some way. You haven't. Their policy isn't the law. Let the authorities explain this to them.
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The denial of egress is entirely in the mind of the (non) shopper - you can walk thru the gate and the only thing that happens is an alarm goes off, so what? I can't imagine being "trapped" somewhere because I didn't want to set off an alarm.
This is no different than an emergency exit at a movie theater, except you can disable the alarm and use the exit by scanning your receipt.
Reminds me of "Intent to Deceive", by Larry Niven (Score:2)
Of course, their was Intent to Deceive in the story, as well as cannibalism, along with robots gone wild. Larry Niven had such a range of abilities.
A certain group of people (Score:2)
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tend to ruin it for the rest of us. A high trust society is so much better to live in, compared to what America has right now. Richest country in the world, yet 34 trillion in debt, and theft is off the scale so bad that customers are getting locked in. Sad. I'm not American. I love America and loathe it in equal measure.
You know this is common in the EU, right? Multiple comments here about similar arrangements in Germany, Italy, etc.
I'm curious about the debt level of your mystery country, and how much foreign aid the US sent your country that is part of the $34T in debt we currently have. Perhaps the US should suspend foreign aid until we get our spending/debt under control?
Rat Dogs (Score:2)
Does it keep out the entitled people carrying their little rat dogs into the store. I saw a god in the store in San Jose where we were staying at least every third time I went to the Safeway. I wish I had recorded my arguments about unsanitary conditions. Even the staff said "it's up to the manager." And the workers would often pet the rat dogs. Dog shit to their fingers to produce. No, no health issues at all. They of course claimed they were service dogs. Well I have a friend with a service. It s
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Dude, don't you wash your produce before eating it? You really should.
Also, most store employees never touch produce - for example, cashiers typically handle produce shoppers place inside plastic bags.
Window shopping (Score:2)
Do people really go window shopping in grocery stores? I realize you might go in to get something that's out of stock, or it may be over priced and you choose not to buy whatever it was, so you walk out empty-handed, but is it common to just go walking around the store and buy nothing?
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Nah. I walk in to Home Depot, don't find what I want and just walk out the exit door. No problems. Sometimes I even walk out the entrance door.
It's nice to live in a town without homeless bums.
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The (R) is next the retards' names. If you want proof, just pay attention to what they are doing.