Bank of America Faces Lawsuit Over Alleged Unpaid Time for Windows Bootup, Logins, and Security Token Requests (hcamag.com) 181
A former Business Analyst reportedly filed a class action lawsuit claiming that for years, hundreds of remote employees at Bank of America first had to boot up complex computer systems before their paid work began, reports Human Resources Director magazine:
Tava Martin, who worked both remotely and at the company's Jacksonville facility, says the financial institution required her and fellow hourly workers to log into multiple security systems, download spreadsheets, and connect to virtual private networks — all before the clock started ticking on their workday. The process wasn't quick. According to the filing in the United States District Court for the Western District of North Carolina, employees needed 15 to 30 minutes each morning just to get their systems running. When technical problems occurred, it took even longer...
Workers turned on their computers, waited for Windows to load, grabbed their cell phones to request a security token for the company's VPN, waited for that token to arrive, logged into the network, opened required web applications with separate passwords, and downloaded the Excel files they needed for the day. Only then could they start taking calls from business customers about regulatory reporting requirements...
The unpaid work didn't stop at startup. During unpaid lunch breaks, many systems would automatically disconnect or otherwise lose connection, forcing employees to repeat portions of the login process — approximately three to five minutes of uncompensated time on most days, sometimes longer when a complete reboot was required. After shifts ended, workers had to log out of all programs and shut down their computers securely, adding another two to three minutes.
Thanks to Slashdot reader Joe_Dragon for sharing the article.
Workers turned on their computers, waited for Windows to load, grabbed their cell phones to request a security token for the company's VPN, waited for that token to arrive, logged into the network, opened required web applications with separate passwords, and downloaded the Excel files they needed for the day. Only then could they start taking calls from business customers about regulatory reporting requirements...
The unpaid work didn't stop at startup. During unpaid lunch breaks, many systems would automatically disconnect or otherwise lose connection, forcing employees to repeat portions of the login process — approximately three to five minutes of uncompensated time on most days, sometimes longer when a complete reboot was required. After shifts ended, workers had to log out of all programs and shut down their computers securely, adding another two to three minutes.
Thanks to Slashdot reader Joe_Dragon for sharing the article.
That why SLEEP was invented (Score:2)
Not for consumers at home.
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In this case it was company policy to completely shut the system down every day, for two reasons;...Some other executive realized they're not paying employees for boot-up time anyway so who cares if it's inefficient?
On the one hand, I tend to think most class action lawsuits are nonsense. OTOH, it seems perfectly reasonable to consider the clock started once I start my mandatory system boot sequence. On the gripping hand, so long as this was clearly spelled out during the hiring process, it's no business of yours or mine what was agreed to.
All that said, I'm sure as soon as the company is paying for boot times, there will be an intense boot time reduction program. What this will do to wages and other working conditions
Working in the late '90s to early '00s (Score:4, Interesting)
I would start working when I walked through the door, Since my machine was only mine, I'd turn it on on mondays, endure the 20min boot + Opening of apps (+ Memory dumping process*), and turn it off on fridays, ah, good times
* After booting and opening all your "workworse apps", you would call a script that would request 85% to 90% of the total RAM of the machine, forcing everything to SWAP. Afterwards, slowly, things would come back from swap, but only the really usefull stuff, all the flaff (codepaths seldomly used, if at all) stayed on the swap. Made a huge difference on Win2000 and XP, less so on latter editions, as the memory manager was slowly refined.
Re: Working in the late '90s to early '00s (Score:2)
Genius
Compiling - xckd (Score:2)
https://xkcd.com/303/ [xkcd.com]
The 45 minute builds back in the 1990s .....
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https://xkcd.com/303/ [xkcd.com]
The 45 minute builds back in the 1990s .....
I was the NOC sysadmin, later, manager for Value added services.
The closest I was ti compiling was for verifone terminals before the telco job. The compiling on the PC was fast enough. Dumping the code into a POS to test because the simulator was shit was the real bummer.
That and the frequent defrag/optimization of the machine.
Re: (Score:2)
Obviously someone never tried compiling the Linux kernel back then. An hour to build was considered fast. It also was a good stability test because questionable computers would almost always crash.
These days the Linux kernel takes 5 minutes tops.
Android is also a beast to build - back in the early days, half a day to build it was common. Even on a high end machine you did a clean build in around an hour and a half. If you got a super tricked out Threadripper PC wi
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Such software was available from the 90s or even earlier and was ALWAYS
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That could actually work (depending on what you're using)... but, you'd have to spend time trying to get all of that aligned just right for whatever you do.
Buzzkill (Score:2)
Re: Buzzkill (Score:5, Insightful)
Go ahead. Go lay bricks. You'd be back asking for a Windows workstation by tomorrow morning. You underestimate how physically exhausting of a job it is, and how you've got to work in all weather conditions, outside.
Are the "win PCs" BofA owned PCs or employee owned (Score:3)
I think that might matter. Running software through something like a citrix session via a secure connection on their home PC might negate any "when did they actually start working" argument. Much like I don't start getting paid the moment I hop in my car to go to work.
Kind of like a "digital" comminute.
tool prep time is not really an commute or is read (Score:3)
tool prep time is not really an commute or is read the notes of the day
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I stand by my comparison. If the tool I'm provided is an employer-provided workstation, I should get paid the moment I start using it. If the tool I'm provided is a citrix session across a secure connection, I should get paid the moment I connect to it from my home PC.
Don't like the commute analogy? I would suggest that analogies are never "perfect" or "exact" -- they basically highlight similar bits of two different things to HOPEFULLY illustrate some concept or idea. If you are expecting it to be a 10
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I stand by my comparison. If the tool I'm provided is an employer-provided workstation, I should get paid the moment I start using it. If the tool I'm provided is a citrix session across a secure connection, I should get paid the moment I connect to it from my home PC.
By that reasoning commuting with a vehicle provided by the employer should count as work time, but it does not unless the employer asserts some form of control in how the commute is performed, e.g. by requiring work-related stops or prohibiting non-work-related stops, enforcing specific routes etc...
The deciding factor is not who owns the tools, but whether the activity is "integral and necessary" to perform the work as required by the employer. Logging into a workstation to access software or data required
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"By that reasoning commuting with a vehicle provided by the employer should count as work time..."
Sigh....
You quoted me. There was more to what you were replying to than what you quoted. Read the rest:
"I would suggest that analogies are never "perfect" or "exact" -- they basically highlight similar bits of two different things to HOPEFULLY illustrate some concept or idea. If you are expecting it to be a 100% match, I think you might be misunderstanding what an analogy is."
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You quoted me. There was more to what you were replying to than what you quoted. Read the rest:
"I would suggest that analogies are never "perfect" or "exact" -- they basically highlight similar bits of two different things to HOPEFULLY illustrate some concept or idea. If you are expecting it to be a 100% match, I think you might be misunderstanding what an analogy is."
That's exactly my point. There is a difference between an analogy which is imperfect but fundamentally similar and an analogy which is simply not appropriate due to fundamental differences. Commuting and using a tool for a work-related activity are not analogue one with another.
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"I take it you don't get a salary? That you get paid by the second?"
I'm an "exempt" employee in California. Salary for over 2 decades.
I also turned down a company car to use my own. I get paid for "miles". $0.70 per. I do not get paid miles going to my office-- but from my office to any given site. At least during M-F. Sometimes I need to hit a site on the weekend, and miles start the moment I leave the driveway of my home.
There is zero expectation that my 8 hours start when I start my drive in to th
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"I take it you don't get a salary? That you get paid by the second?"
I'm an "exempt" employee in California. Salary for over 2 decades.
I also turned down a company car to use my own. I get paid for "miles". $0.70 per. I do not get paid miles going to my office-- but from my office to any given site. At least during M-F. Sometimes I need to hit a site on the weekend, and miles start the moment I leave the driveway of my home.
There is zero expectation that my 8 hours start when I start my drive in to the office. It starts when I arrive. And yes, it's not uncommon (particularly during projects) that I work well over 8 hours. When that happens, we get comp-time at some point in the future.
I prefer simplicity. In my present work, I'm paid by the task - the day after the task. I told them the amount I wanted on the Check. They take care of the details to make certain the all the other items deductions, SS, and taxes.
I like things simple. I really don't deal with milage, or all the other things I consider minutiae. I deal with simple numbers. What this means is not filling out milage reports and the other stuff that clutters up to work. Perhaps I'm eccentric. But I like simple because my ac
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People expect to be paid for commute time too, at least in the sense that they will want more money if the commute is longer. Work from home made just coming to the office at all something which people want more money for.
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You start at 7:30AM, right? And, you are done for the day at 5PM or something...
Your paycheck should cover your commute... maybe you could move to someplace closer.
Just because you chose to get a job 80 miles away, and have to make that drive every day, the company shouldn't have to foot the bill. My sister doesn't get that kind of special treatment, even though she has to drive 40 miles to her hospital for the NICU ward in Florida.
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People expect to be paid for commute time too, at least in the sense that they will want more money if the commute is longer. Work from home made just coming to the office at all something which people want more money for.
I read the posts, and I cannot help thinking that a lot of people play a big part in their issues. So worried about seconds, so worried about commutes, so much anger toward anyone "over" them. I've always just did what needed to be done. And I've been paid very well for it.
And no, not since being a teenager did I do hourly work. But my extra pay, for my salary, even when adjusted for the hours I've worked, is far beyond what others in my position were making.
So people wanting paid by the second, or p
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"People expect to be paid for commute time too, at least in the sense that they will want more money if the commute is longer. Work from home made just coming to the office at all something which people want more money for."
People (employees) make that choice. They might take a longer commute for a job that pays more. It's not up to the employer to PAY for that commute ON TOP of their pay rate for a given job -- at least in my opinion.
Even worse ... (Score:5, Funny)
Employees only got paid for their time during mouse and key presses, not releases.
yep (Score:2)
Wage theft is bigger (Score:2, Informative)
No different than your commute (Score:2, Troll)
bus and tram drivers get paid for pre trip work ti (Score:2)
bus and tram drivers get paid for pre trip work time and the time from depot to 1st stop of the run.
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Should my employer pay me for my commute to the office? What about when I take a shower and brush my teeth? They should pay me to get dressed too. I mean if I wasn't going to work I could just stay naked.
A normal commute is not considered work time if your employer exercises no control over it, but if they do, e.g. by requiring you to follow a specific route or prevent you to use the commute for personal activities, then it can become work time.
In the case in question there is no doubt the activity which was not being compensated was an "integral and indispensable part of the principal activities [justia.com]" of the worker. There is no doubt IMHO that it should be compensated.
My girlfriend asked me to replace her M$ Windows (Score:2, Informative)
... with a Linux setup on her brand new good Lenovo laptop with the lates W1ndows pre-installed. Backed up her Thunderbird Mail directory, wipe-installed Mint Linux and set it up in a few minutes. The difference in boot time and responsiveness is night and day.
I started at a new company a year back and hat one of their Win Laptops for a few weeks before my dev MB Air arrived. The system was so finicky to the point of being unusable. I was speechless. I fundamentally don't get why people even use W1ndows for
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The system was so finicky to the point of being unusable. I was speechless. I fundamentally don't get why people even use W1ndows for regular stuff these days.
Weird. I seem to have no problem with my Windows machine at home. Rock solid, boots up quickly. My work machine on the other ran runs like a molasses on a cold day. Interestingly so does my colleague's work MacBook. 99% of the problems with Windows are either not spending more than $200 on your hardware or letting corporate IT get anywhere near it.
You think Microsoft's telemetry is bad? Just wait and see how fucking slow things get when your IT starts cramming their own spyware (and Teams) down your throat.
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... with a Linux setup on her brand new good Lenovo laptop with the lates W1ndows pre-installed. Backed up her Thunderbird Mail directory, wipe-installed Mint Linux and set it up in a few minutes. The difference in boot time and responsiveness is night and day.
I started at a new company a year back and hat one of their Win Laptops for a few weeks before my dev MB Air arrived. The system was so finicky to the point of being unusable. I was speechless. I fundamentally don't get why people even use W1ndows for regular stuff these days. If all you need is Mail, Web and some digital project and content management. there is absolutely no need for anything other than a lean modern Linux. The last version of W1n that I used for anything meaningful was Win2k and that was just about 25 years ago.
Totally bizarre.
I suspect that she prefers Linux now. I've set up grandmas with Linux. They email (T-Bird) they Surf (Firefox) and so many fewer problems. Most administer the things themselves. A pity that so many in here, where people are supposed to be savvy, have so much trouble even getting Linux to install.
When my wife had a shoulder operation some years ago, I got her a touch screen Windows 8 machine. Oh, I was out fixing problems every single day. After a month, the problems disappeared - I thought. I went to c
Re: My girlfriend asked me to replace her M$ Windo (Score:2)
Does every computer need to be managed though? Isn't there value in saying, for some subset of users, "you're using Linux, you're on your own for security updates and you're responsible for your machine's security"? Possibly with some guidelines and recommendations.
Or perhaps a more interesting question: where is the evidence that enterprise-level management of PCs saves more money than it costs?
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Does every computer need to be managed though? Isn't there value in saying, for some subset of users, "you're using Linux, you're on your own for security updates and you're responsible for your machine's security"? Possibly with some guidelines and recommendations.
Or perhaps a more interesting question: where is the evidence that enterprise-level management of PCs saves more money than it costs?
At my place, we had a division of employees that administered Windows - they were busy. I wasn't IT, but I was Mac Unix savvy, so I got a side task of administering the Mac Users. One person for hundreds of Macs. they had probably for every hundred Windows machines - and I even got sucked into administering Windows too.
But they always bragged about how much less expensive the windows machines were. Kinda forgot about all their salaries and downtime costs.
Banks dogfooding their own shit customer security. (Score:4, Interesting)
...grabbed their cell phones to request a security token for the company's VPN, waited for that token to arrive...
Sounds like they are waiting for a SMS to arrive with a security code for the login session, which is both slower and not secure (venerable to SIM-jacking) compared to a TOTP/HOTP code they would be able to get instantly from a authentication app.
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It sounds like they have employees on premises who they aren't paying to be there despite the employees being unable to work due to their own incompetence. The method of login really is secondary to this story. Fun fact a few years ago I used to arrive at the office at 9:15 but got paid from 9:00. Yes legally they were required to pay us the time it took to walk from the parking lot all the way into the control room. But then we have worker protection laws in my country.
Despicable lawyers (Score:2)
Cases like this should never be brought, and the lawyers who take them are despicable; they're one reason why we can't have nice stuff, as the saying goes.
This will consume court time, consume the time of people FORCED into jury duty (for which they will not be properly compensated, and ironically, on the demand of people claiming to be improperly compensated). It will add another layer of self-defensive activity to corporate America which is already up to its collective eyeballs in such unproductive garbag
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EVERYBODY has that particular uncompensated overhead in their jobs.
We also don't pay for your work clothes, that you only need for work. Nor the gas, maintenance, insurance, etc. for the car to get to work. Nor the computer glasses you need to see the screen.
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Cases like this should never be brought, and the lawyers who take them are despicable; they're one reason why we can't have nice stuff, as the saying goes.
This will consume court time, consume the time of people FORCED into jury duty (for which they will not be properly compensated, and ironically, on the demand of people claiming to be improperly compensated). It will add another layer of self-defensive activity to corporate America which is already up to its collective eyeballs in such unproductive garbage only needed to hold-off lawyers... It will add a microscopic additional cost to everything (which is indeed barely measurable in itself BUT adds onto all those other microscopic cost additions that end up being, in total, significant).
Basic question for the griping bank employees: Did you ever sue the bank for the time it takes you to commute to and from the job while working in-person? Surely THAT time took longer for most people and was also uncompensated. Of course, had they tried a lawsuit for THAT time, they probably would have been laughed out of the lawyers' offices because pretty much EVERYBODY has that particular uncompensated overhead in their jobs.
Yup, look forward to clocking out every time you use the toilet, drink coffee, and anything not directly task related. Yet we have those who are consumed by hatred of work, co-workers, and probably all humanity who demand that they be paid for going to work. Perhaps they are a big part of their problems.
If a person is so worried about money and minutes, perhaps they might look for other employment?
Seems to be common practive (Score:2)
Employees (call reps) spent 6–12 minutes booting up computers, logging into soft phones/VPNs, and clocking in before shifts; similar time shutting down after clocking out. Unpaid time allegedly caused overtime violations.
Peterson v. Nelnet Diversified Sols.:
Pre-shift: ~2 minutes waking computer, logging in with badge/password, loading Citrix for timekeeping/email/loan data access. Total unpaid: ~48 cents/shift, but cumulative for low-wage workers.
Call center
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Cadena v. Customer Connexx LLC: Employees (call reps) spent 6–12 minutes booting up computers, logging into soft phones/VPNs, and clocking in before shifts; similar time shutting down after clocking out. Out of curiosity, how much are you paid per minute?
Working by the clock has its drawbacks (Score:2)
Working by the clock, means you have a very constant, steady workload. So the amount of accomplished tasks equals the time spent working.
Although:
- Employers will tend to increase the workload within the same time span.
- Employees will push the other way and slow down their work until end of work time.
This method is praised because it simplifies management. It is just laying time tables and checking employees are on their assigned time.
While paying by the accomplished tasks within a defined time frame is mo
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To summarize, the clocked work time need time managers, whereas the tasks oriented work requires projects managers.
I'm paid by the task - I have no manager. My work is my proof of work. I regulate myself.
Granted, it is work that requires a lot of intellectual input and analysis, and if I fail, it cannot be hidden. I fail bigly. That's why I get paid the big bucks! But I'm trying to figure the disconnect here. I've always thought of Slashdot as being populated by professionals. Yet we have a lot of people worried about minutes, even seconds and even angry they are not paid for the commute. That outlook is not profess
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I agree 100% with Everything you said. When you are your own employer, you cannot escape the realty, that you can only get your customers pay for the value you created, and if you fail a something, the consequences are entirely on you.
Greedy suits & ties (Score:2)
The greedy suit & tie banksters absolutely never fail to be the downfall of every organization they nest into like a plague-rat infestation.
It truly is almost unbelievable what kind of insane nickle-and-diming stupidity they come up with to wipe their feet on those who are supposedly below them in the org-chart.
Integrity Staffing Solutions, Inc. v. Busk (Score:4, Interesting)
Don't count on help from the Supreme Court on this. Integrity Staffing Solutions, Inc. v. Busk [wikipedia.org], 574 U.S. 27 (2014), was a unanimous decision by the United States Supreme Court, ruling that time spent by workers waiting to undergo anti-employee theft security screenings is not "integral and indispensable" to their work, and thus not compensable under the Fair Labor Standards Act.
Jesse Busk was among several workers employed by the temp agency Integrity Staffing Solutions to work in Amazon.com's warehouse in Nevada to help package and fulfill orders. At the end of each day, they had to spend about 25 minutes waiting to undergo anti-theft security checks before leaving. Busk and his fellow workers sued their employer, claiming they were entitled to be paid for those 25 minutes under the Fair Labor Standards Act. They argued that the time waiting could have been reduced if more screeners were added, or shifts were staggered so workers did not have to wait for the checks at the same time. Furthermore, since the checks were made to prevent employee theft, they only benefited the employers and the customers, not the employees themselves.
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The only thing that I can agree with in your entire post is the last line. It's pretty much a given that if they win employees will get pennies on the dollar, and the leeches will get millions.
Re:What? how long can that possibly take? (Score:4, Insightful)
The one possible upside is that it could set a precedent, and prevent other companies from pulling the same crap in future.
Although it should be obvious, if you're carrying out tasks that your employer has instructed you to perform then you're working and should be paid for the time. If those processes are time consuming it's the employer's fault and their own time they're wasting. Once they can no longer pass the costs of that inefficiency onto employees they might actually do something about it.
Re:What? how long can that possibly take? (Score:5, Insightful)
Amazon has had to pay employees for the time it takes for them to go through the security process at their warehouses, as do gemstone processing facilities. This is no different. It's disappointing that these people have to waste time and money in court, once the precedent has been established enforcement should be automatic.
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The one possible upside is that it could set a precedent, and prevent other companies from pulling the same crap in future.
Pay a salary, not hourly where seconds impact your paycheck.
Although it should be obvious, if you're carrying out tasks that your employer has instructed you to perform then you're working and should be paid for the time. If those processes are time consuming it's the employer's fault and their own time they're wasting. Once they can no longer pass the costs of that inefficiency onto employees they might actually do something about it.
Actually, it isn't quite obvious - at least to me. I get paid what I get paid. Computer boot up time is part of the job. Interacting with clients is part of the job. Some weeks are hard and take longer, some are easy and take very little time.
What seems strange to me is that these employees are not salaried, but paid by the second.
However - wanna see the bean counters get twitchy? Ask what the charge number should be for using the toilet. Th
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You get salary when you work a higher position at a bigger company... not when you flip burgers at BK. If you live far enough away from your cushy office job that you have to "bill the company for transit time"... you're not working at the right place.
If you have to take the company to court to get your $5 worth of gas added to your salary, you're not working at the right place.
Are you working while in the car transiting to the office? Going by that metric, could you bill the company for the time you're f
Re:What? how long can that possibly take? (Score:5, Interesting)
if you knew the terms for which you're being paid why did you stick to the job longer than say 4 to 8
Because you need money for you or your family to survive, possibly. And it may take you MUCH longer than 8 weeks to successfully obtain a replacement role that is any better.
It doesn't matter.. It is illegal for the employer. Not the part about waiting for Windows to boot, but failure to start the work clock including the time when the employee's duties start -- which includes all time taken for all necessary preparations required by the employer (including time for security checks, boot, etc), even though it is before they can start taking calls or working on their assigned tasks.
Re:What? how long can that possibly take? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:What? how long can that possibly take? (Score:5, Informative)
If you knew the terms for which you're being paid why did you stick to the job longer than say 4 to 8 weeks (the time it takes to find a new gig).
The average job search hasn't been that short in years.
Re: What? how long can that possibly take? (Score:2)
Because some adults are not adults at all, and don't know the limits of their entitlement.
Re:What? how long can that possibly take? (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, it's Windows. Nevermind .. my bad.
Oh aren't you clever. No Windows boots in seconds. Their problem was tokens, VPN access, corporate software for call management, and likely a PC loaded down with corporate spyware slowing the entire thing down. Any other system won't help at all against this kind of rubbish.
But hey, MS bashing have a +5 informative.
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Oh aren't you clever. No Windows boots in seconds.
With a decent SSD and a decent CPU. I would not put it past some companies to still be running with CPUs that barely pass minimum requirements and using the slowest HDDs.
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You get a lot of junk on most corporate laptops - AV, EDR, spyware, remote management, monitoring etc.
I had a personal laptop which was an identical model to the company supplied work laptop (in this case a macbook pro so no windows involved) and it booted noticeably quicker, although sleep is reliable on macs so most of us just put it to sleep instead of shutting down at the end of the day.
For others i see with windows laptops the problem tends to be even worse.
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EDR?
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Oh aren't you clever. No Windows boots in seconds.
With a decent SSD and a decent CPU. I would not put it past some companies to still be running with CPUs that barely pass minimum requirements and using the slowest HDDs.
My M$ MacMini boots in about 20 seconds - about15 to 20 percent is me typing my password. My windows laptop takes longer
I wonder if the folks who are so pissed that they want paid bot boot time, are willing to clock out every time they take a sip of coffee or take a piss?
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Oh aren't you clever. No Windows boots in seconds.
Recent versions of Windows can indeed get you to the login screen pretty quickly, much of the time. But, after that, the time it takes for you to go from the login screen to a functional, usable desktop can be several minutes. Perhaps not on a home computer, I don't know... but I've seen this happen quite a bit on our work machines on those unfortunate occasions I've needed to log into a Windows computer for whatever reason (which fortunately is not a daily occurrence).
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Oh, it's Windows. Nevermind .. my bad. That said, how long did it take for them to realize they weren't being paid for that time? If you knew the terms for which you're being paid why did you stick to the job longer than say 4 to 8 weeks (the time it takes to find a new gig). I mean, I used to work at companies where parking was sparse .. did they owe me for the time I spent hunting for a parking spot? If I didn't like it I could quit and find a McDonald's to work at. If the company had to pay for that time, they ould just make my salary lower to adjust.
Class action lawsuits are way for lawyers to make money.
Hey uh, speaking of parking..I wasn't paying attention when that corporate email went "ding" while I was shoving my dong. Didn't pull out in time 'cause email distracted me. Can I haz child support now?
(I think I'm going to file a class-action lawsuit. Against class-action lawsuits. Gonna put my money on who wins by losing the most leastest.)
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Hey uh, speaking of parking..I wasn't paying attention when that corporate email went "ding" while I was shoving my dong. Didn't pull out in time 'cause email distracted me. Can I haz child support now?
(I think I'm going to file a class-action lawsuit. Against class-action lawsuits. Gonna put my money on who wins by losing the most leastest.)
Is his mom gonna keep the baby?
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Depends on the hardware... if it's from a laptop (5400RPM) harddrive, it can take that long.
Plus, (didn't read the article)... are they booting this "specialized version" from a thumbdrive?
If I did that from my tower, it'd boot the same speed as Win10 Enterprise LTSC... from BIOS Post pass to usable... maybe 30 seconds (Threadripper 3960, 128gigs RAM, Titan X GPU, 8 HDDs (two NvME, rest spinning). (I won't have to upgrade my hardware in 6 months)
Of course... WAAAA... I had to "do the work of booting the sp
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We should also deport people who lack basic logic skills and can't handle factual information. I was stating an actual reality. If any company knows it has to pay you for waiting for Windows to load, they would adjust for that in your salary offer. That's a fact.
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Factual information like "Finding a new job should take 4 to 8 weeks?" Have you actually worked at mcdonalds? If not then stfu with this bullshit, defending the predatory practices of banks with bootstraps fever-dream horseshit.
I still don't get why professional employees are Paid so little that boot up time reduces their paychecks that much.
Every job I've had since becoming a professional pays a salary. I know what my check is going to ge, and the time it takes the computer to boot is just part of that paycheck.
I know you are angry, but maybe look for a job that pays professionally, rather than a professional career that pays you like a McDonald's employee. where every second is critical to your take-home pay. When're you a
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"I know you are angry"
Why do you feel the need to interject my personal circumstances into it? They are unrelated to my taking an issue with this individual who has never worked at a McDonalds rationalizing wage theft with "well I could have just worked at McDonalds if I didn't like it, so so can you if you don't like it".
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I know... $80k is so little, who could ever live off that? *checks his bank account to see how few dollars are left, while walking around his apartment checking all the computers*
Re: What? how long can that possibly take? (Score:2)
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Not how it works. Until you cross into their building, not on property, it's just you commuting to work on your own dime.
Trip and break your hip in the parking lot before work? Not work related. I definitely think it *should* be, but it isn't.
Re: What? how long can that possibly take? (Score:2)
Actually they should pay for the commute, too. It's time I spend for the company I'd otherwise not spend on the road.
If you're a contractor, you're definitely billing the client for hours spent to/from the job site.
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So... I should be able to charge the company for the $0.45 it costs to make it to work on time? Say it's a mile and a half (like the former Electrolux factory is here) away... are we gonna split hairs here?
Just setup your computer to dual-boot... problem solved. I would do that when I was testing removal techniques for the anti-spyware programs I tested in my SpyWareInfo days.
And, trust me... if the data goes out on the 'net to the employer (say, Intel), it's already insecure. No encryption is 100% unbre
Re: What? how long can that possibly take? (Score:2)
So... I should be able to charge the company for the $0.45 it costs to make it to work on time?
Yes. Because (1) it's not .45, even 1.5 miles takes some time to travel - time that's not yours to do with as you like, it's time ultimately spent in someone else's service.
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I know... it's so hard to live on $80k a year.
If you consider the time not your personal time, you can't stop for a coffee and a burger at a gas station without asking your boss? You could clock-in when you got in the car, and you might get stuck in traffic for an hour... how does that work?
If you're going to be that picky about your time at work, why not find something closer to the job site?
Re: What? how long can that possibly take? (Score:2)
Where "my" jobsite is isn't the point, the fact that they should pay me for the time I'm giving up to do their deeds is.
(Besides, if companies had to pay for their employees' commute rest assured that places closer to "my" place would prefer to hire "me" instead of someone else from further away; then your proposal would actually have a decent chance.)
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Re: What? how long can that possibly take? (Score:2)
It doesn't need to be that way. When your plumber arrives, rest assured you're paying for their travel expenses, but you had exactly jack shit to say about any of the above.
Re: What? how long can that possibly take? (Score:2)
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Wrong. I've had plumbers come out, diagnose the situation and then told me what would be required to fix the problem. At that point, I decide if I want them to do it or not. Last two plumber visits cost me nothing. AIS in San Diego, if you are curious.
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Not how it works. Until you cross into their building, not on property, it's just you commuting to work on your own dime.
Exactly. I dunno where some of these people get their ideas. Sounds like they believe if they think about a work problem while taking a crap, they need to be paid. I dream solutions to problems - by their metric, I should be paid to sleep.
Trip and break your hip in the parking lot before work? Not work related. I definitely think it *should* be, but it isn't.
Every place I've been at, that sort of injury becomes a Workman's comp issue. If you are on their property, and you work there, it'll be cut and dried.
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Unnecessary commuting is one of the biggest contributors to carbon emissions, and covid proved that with significant drops in co2 emissions when people were working from home. There needs to be regulations to prevent employers from forcing unnecessary commuting, such as:
Right to work remotely unless it can be proven that your job absolutely requires presence in a specific location. Make commuting time work time, requiring employees to be paid for it. Tax employers based on the number of commuting hours across their employee base. Require employers to offer relocation assistance for permanent employees who absolutely need to be in a specific location. Flexible/staggered hours so employees can avoid peak travel times.
So there needs to be a law that says a mine worker or factory worker or roughneck, or grocery store worker has to be proven to need to travel to the mine or factory or oil drilling rig?
There is a whole world out there that isn't Programming or remote IT. Probably most work. Now that said, I think a lot of people in here should be required to never go to a workplace where there are other people. Y'all are mighty bitter in here, and it probably wears on people.
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Oh, yeah... carbon emissions... get an EV! That way, you and the rest of the EVs can push the existing power grid harder, and ignore where that power comes from.
Because one EV is going to instantly fix the greenhouse gases thing.
Re:Infosec incentivized for compliance, not work (Score:5, Interesting)
Which especially creates friction in engineering organizations.
Yes I need root access on my machine. So naturally instead of working, I have to waste time sitting through root user trainings and documenting that yes I do have root access to my machine that sits on my desk in my office that I have to badge through the front door to even get to.
wtf are you even babbling about here? Your root privileges to your workstation aren't risk free just because you have to badge into your office. No wonder they've got you sitting through multiple security training meetings -- they clearly clocked you as a fucking moron
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Whoever set up that policy gets warm fuzzies by having it, rather than doing other things that could actually mitigate the risks should a single employee workstation (root or not) become compromised.
Actually if you have a standalone workstation that you setup and manage yourself this will often be significantly lower risk, as there will be no shared credentials on it that could be used for lateral movement. The typical AD model of shared authentication provides plenty of options for lateral movement, and th
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"A malicious website"... solution= don't go to that website. Problem solved.
If you have to obey InfoSec kinda stuff... you shouldn't be clicking on questionable ads on YouTube or whatever.
You're super-worried about the Office365 popunders (I use Office 2016)... you might want to revisit your firewall and block a couple more things.
Re: 47 seconds (Score:2)
> Leave computer on or suspended. 0 sec
Can't do that. The computers need to be fully shut down before they leave for the day. So every day they are turning the machine on and waiting for the full boot process.
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And, that's very very bad for the machines... starting up and shutting down is really bad for HDDs, and the heat shock can break solder joints on the motherboard.
Even without considering the HDDs, making the motherboard heat up and cool down 'could' cause metal fatigue and break solder joints... better to leave the machine on.
The HDD (spinning version) is...
the platter stack is resting on a bearing while off... when it's turned on, it rides on that bearing until it spins up enough... and, the reverse when i
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If you're physically in the office then you can prove your arrival time based on the time you swipe through the entrance door.
And as for the rest, you underestimate how slow some machines can be. Corporate desktops tend to be the cheapest available hardware purchased in bulk, and then loaded up with lots of bloatware that slows it down. Those in IT tend to have more powerful hardware so they don't notice or care about the time consumed by other employees.
Plus the servers that people interact with during thi
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All good points. All my machines are Linux and on low-end machines (not the Linux servers, which are beefy, but the Linux clients are all almost 10 year old I3's) and everything is super fast. But we are also talking about hundreds of users, not thousands. And almost all are local, not remote. And logins are mostly staggered across several timeframes. So my references and guesses are based on what I know.
I still think if it takes just a few minutes (which is way longer than I would expect), it is no bi
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The job I had when Covid hit, it took me 20-25 mins to get to and from work, call it 45-50 minutes a day. For that, I had a work environment far more convenient than the one at home, in particular when it came to breakfast and the midday meal, I could also wander across the corridor and talk to some of the specialists I frequently interfaced with.
I did work from home occasionally - especially when it was evenings or nights, or the roads were icy - but it was not my first choice.
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Your work environment at home is under your control, and you have greater flexibility here if your living location is not dictated by having to travel daily to a workplace.
If you get a full remote position you can go live somewhere cheaper, so that for the same price you get a larger house and dedicate a room for work. Buy a decent comfortable chair that suits your body size and shape, a decent desk and a high quality monitor.
Most offices have standardised equipment and won't buy equipment that suits you, t
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What about a company way down a corridor, with a slow lift? Do they need to pay for the time walking to the office? Why or why not? It seems like the same situation as the lengthy computer setup, if shorter.
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Melodramatically complaining about a 0.1ms
You have to know it takes much longer than 0.1ms to receive the SMS text messages containing a token.
Anyway it doesn't matter if it's 0.1ms or 8 hours. Wages are required to include all time spent on work-related activities required by the employer,
and rounding of times can only be performed when the system is both reasonable and does not consistently disfavor the employee.
Consistently shaving off a second of an employee's compensated time per day from when they ar
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Depends on where you work.
Not all jobs (nay, all jobs) are gonna obey that stuff.
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Melodramatically complaining about a 0.1ms
You have to know it takes much longer than 0.1ms to receive the SMS text messages containing a token.
Anyway it doesn't matter if it's 0.1ms or 8 hours. Wages are required to include all time spent on work-related activities required by the employer, and rounding of times can only be performed when the system is both reasonable and does not consistently disfavor the employee.
Consistently shaving off a second of an employee's compensated time per day from when they are working is still an unlawful thing worthy of liquidated damages, and it will add up to numbers given enough days.
I see your solution is to be paid for every second you are doing company work. And waiting for a SMS must be compensated.
Clocking out to use the toilet, sip coffee, answer the phone for non-work items, patting the dog's head. talking to your wife, daydreaming. Every second not doing work, unpaid. Just like you demand. Not company work.
Be careful of your demands - you just might get them.
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Clocking out to use the toilet, sip coffee, answer the phone for non-work items, patting the dog's head.
They cannot. Many retail employers would do this with their minimum wage staff if the law allowed it.
This is also Illegal. Federal law prohibits deducting pay for breaks under 20 minutes; even if the employee was persuaded to agree.
Federal law states that breaks less than 20 minutes must be paid. The break has to exceed 20 minutes before the employer may clock you out.
Employers are required to pay for all
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I thought of this as a counterargument but it does seem to track. The company decides how long it takes you to get to your desk. They may save money by making it slower (fewer and bigger buildings).