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Visa and Mastercard Near Deal With Merchants That Would Change Rewards Landscape (msn.com) 159

Visa and Mastercard are nearing a settlement with merchants that aims to end a 20-year-old legal dispute by lowering fees stores pay and giving them more power to reject certain credit cards, WSJ reports, citing people familiar with the matter. From the report: Under terms being discussed, Visa and Mastercard would lower credit-card interchange fees, which are often between 2% and 2.5%, by an average of around 0.1 percentage point over several years, the people said. They would also loosen rules that require merchants that accept one of a network's credit cards to accept all of them.

A deal could be announced soon, the people said, and would require court approval to take effect. If an agreement is finalized, consumers could see big changes at the register. Merchants that accept one kind of Visa credit card wouldn't have to accept all Visa credit cards, for example. Under the current talks, credit-card acceptance would be divided into several categories including rewards credit cards, credit cards with no rewards programs, and commercial cards, the people familiar with the matter said.

Some stores might turn away rewards cards, which charge them higher fees and in recent years have become very popular with consumers. But stores that reject those cards would face the risk of declining sales.

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Visa and Mastercard Near Deal With Merchants That Would Change Rewards Landscape

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  • by Pseudonymous Powers ( 4097097 ) on Monday November 10, 2025 @09:12AM (#65785548)

    "Merchants that accept one kind of Visa credit card wouldn't have to accept all Visa credit cards"

    And if a vendor decides to starts picking and choosing cards that they'll accept, then rationally they're gonna pick the card that's the best deal for them. Which, by simple thermodynamics, is going to be the card that's the worst deal for the customer (or the card company, in theory, but they'll swiftly make sure THAT doesn't happen).

    Pretty soon everything but a bog-standard Visa is going to be the same as a Discover card in the 1990s. Accepted next to nowhere.

    • by grahamsz ( 150076 ) on Monday November 10, 2025 @09:19AM (#65785556) Homepage Journal
      Seems like this could be a win for amex and discover really. I'm not going to want to carry a visa that risk being rejected because its the wrong type
      • by taustin ( 171655 )

        Then Amex is a poor choice, since it's already not accepted anywhere near as many places as Visa/MC or even Discover. Largely due to their fees to the merchants being a lot higher.

        • by Monkey-Man2000 ( 603495 ) on Monday November 10, 2025 @11:23AM (#65785880)

          Then Amex is a poor choice, since it's already not accepted anywhere near as many places as Visa/MC or even Discover.

          In my 23+ years of carrying an Amex card, the only place in the United States that didn't accept my card was a small town grocery, and I love my Amex. Now, in Europe, they don't accept Amex anywhere and you need Visa for sure.

          • Do you only eat at chain restaurants? Because in my 2 years of having an Amex, I have encountered three coffee shops, four restaurants, and a comic book shop that all won't take Amex. All local, independent establishments.
            • by taustin ( 171655 ) on Monday November 10, 2025 @12:15PM (#65786034) Homepage Journal

              It local independents who are most likely to not be interested in Amex, because their fees are, on average, 1-1.5% higher than Visa/MC's. And merchant fees are always higher for small businesses to begin with.

              When your net profit margin is under 5% to begin with (and it almost always is), that 1% can easily be the difference between prosperity and your children having to go to public school, and can easily be the difference between a sustainable business and flipping burgers at your McJob for minimum wage.

              • I'm not complaining, I fully understand why those places don't take Amex. It's still great to have for the bigger chains. I was merely questioning the OP's claim that they only encountered a single establishment in 25 years.
          • by taustin ( 171655 )

            Your personal anecdote does not define the real world. Reality doesn't care if you believe in it or not, it believes in your regardless.

        • Then Amex is a poor choice, since it's already not accepted anywhere near as many places as Visa/MC or even Discover.

          Amex is likely to be the primary card choice for me if merely checking for its logo is still all I have do, but the VISA/MC logos suddenly lose this important, decades-old trait.

    • by bn-7bc ( 909819 )
      Hold on I thought there were only to kinds of visa card debit or credit, what am I missing?
      • by Junta ( 36770 ) on Monday November 10, 2025 @09:37AM (#65785608)

        including rewards credit cards, credit cards with no rewards programs, and commercial cards,

        It's right there in the summary, that merchant's would start being able to decline the credit cards with 'points' and 'cash back'. I presume this would come with some rebranding to be phased in, like 'Visa+' and 'Visa Business', with a lot of merchants refusing 'Visa+' just like they reject other high-fee cards.

    • Yes, it's a double edged sword. By exuding rewards cards they will reduce their expenses, and at the same time exclude individuals with high credit scores. Businesses will need to think carefully about what is best for them. However, I fear most will do the simplest thing, and cut costs.

      Most likely businesses that want to be viewed as upscale will continue to accept those cards. Businesses that want to be low cost (Aldi is the most extreme case, as they don't accept cards currently) will not.
      • I don't know where you shop, the Aldis around here takes credit cards. We wouldn't shop there if they didn't.

        • Maybe they're in another country? Here in the US a guy selling tomatoes beside the road is likely to whip out a Square reader attached to a phone and take credit cards.

          I live in a small town and I can't think of a single business that DOESN'T accept cards. The last holdout (an old diner thats been there for decades) gave in about 7 or 8 years ago and got a reader.

          • by skam240 ( 789197 )

            I live in a county of about 500k and have a few spots that I go to that don't take cards. These places stay in business because they're cheap, likely passing on their savings to the customer. I know the pricing is why I keep going back.

          • I have not held cash in my hands in at least 5 years. I don't even have a wallet that could carry it.

          • Plenty of businesses here don't take cards, but not major ones like Aldi.

        • I don't know where you shop, the Aldis around here takes credit cards. We wouldn't shop there if they didn't.

          Apparently Aldi started accepting credit cards around 2017 [supermarketnews.com]

    • Excellent. Credit card rewards are an economic parasite.

  • American Express (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ebyrob ( 165903 ) on Monday November 10, 2025 @09:20AM (#65785560)

    If you want a credit card with great rewards but a chance at not being carried, don't they already call that American Express? Or Discover.

    Diluting your own standard seems like a great way to endanger your core business. But, I guess arrogance, greed and incompetence is the current business trend.

    • Traditionally, American Express provided charge cards. While similar to credit cards, they weren't intended to hold a balance, and were supposed to be paid off at the end of each month. This meant they had much higher swipe fees to make up for lack of interest.

      This legacy persists even if most AmEx cards are now credit cards instead of charge cards.

  • by TuballoyThunder ( 534063 ) on Monday November 10, 2025 @09:39AM (#65785610)
    Reward cards have become a coupon book and maximizing the benefits involves a fair bit of planning. Ultimately, I think it ends up encouraging spend that is of questionable value.

    In theory eliminating reward cards would result in lower cost growth, but in reality merchants will pocket the money and not pass savings onto the consumer.

    • by Waffle Iron ( 339739 ) on Monday November 10, 2025 @10:14AM (#65785726)

      The merchants need to consider that if their competitor down the street still accepts rewards cards, the customers might just switch, and then they've just lost the whole sale. All this over a 1% extra cost to the merchant.

      In the meantime, they think nothing of offering things like buy-one-get-one-free deals to lure in a few more customers.

    • by garcia ( 6573 )

      No; it's absolutely a terrible idea. It may be great for the businesses; but, it's absolutely fucking terrible for the consumer.

      This is absolutely fucking insanity. Imagine having to carry 6 different cards and wondering which one a particular store is going to take.

      • by Junta ( 36770 )

        Or you just carry a couple of cards, one with no rewards that people will actually take, and maybe one or two with rewards that some merchants will still take.

        The biggest thing to get right is some simple 'branding' so consumers actually know at a glance what cards might work or might not.

        It's just bonkers that the credit card companies have basically made the merchants pay for the credit card companies to motivate cardholders to use the cards that merchants don't want them using in the first place. Those

    • by MeNeXT ( 200840 )

      A coupon book is a marketing opportunity to attract new business with a limited production, a rewards card increases the cost of every product and service while directing a portion of the cost back to the consumer and a big profit to the card companies.

    • "but in reality merchants will pocket the money and not pass savings onto the consumer."

      I can factually state this is already happening. I work for a company that negotiated their merchant fee down from 2.5% to 1.5% and they are still charging the customer the 2.5% fee and pocketing the 1% for themselves.
  • Dusaster (Score:5, Insightful)

    by registrations_suck ( 1075251 ) on Monday November 10, 2025 @09:55AM (#65785654)

    Well, that's a disaster. Am I to carry a bunch of different Visa cards, hoping that one of them will be accepted at whatever merchant I am at?

    Suppose I am at a restaurant, and there is no prior discussion about WHICH Visa cards they accept, I eat my meal, and then they tell me they don't take the Visa card I have. Now what will the merchant do? Take an IOU?

    I suppose they could take my "rejected" card for an additional fee. A great way to ensure I never go there again, but up to them I suppose.

    • by Junta ( 36770 )

      I fully anticipate there will be branding changes, like adding a '+' for rewards and consumers will learn fairly quickly that merchants frequently don't want to deal with the more expensive 'plus' transactions.

      Can't blame them, your rewards points/cash back is just being charged to the merchant.

      • I fully anticipate there will be branding changes, like adding a '+' for rewards and consumers will learn fairly quickly that merchants frequently don't want to deal with the more expensive 'plus' transactions.

        They already exist for Visa. [nerdwallet.com] There is Traditional, Signature, and Infinite.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      I suppose they could take my "rejected" card for an additional fee. A great way to ensure I never go there again, but up to them I suppose.

      Funny. American restaurants almost univesally expect an additional fee of 15-30% called a bri.. er, "tip" but you'll boycott one over the 2% they might pass on to you to use a reward card?

      • Oh, I don't pay their bullshit "tip" either.

        • Oh now I know why you don't want to go back. You're sick and tired of the wait staff who you think don't deserve to make a living wage pissing in your soup.

          Fun fact I think tipping is the worst, but I'm simply not enough of an unbearable arsehole not to tip in America. Go back to the early 1800s if you want slaves to work for you for nothing.

          • Oh, I think they should make a living wage.

            I also think that wages are a matter between employee and employer. Customers should not be involved.

            If customers are going to be involved, they need to be provided with the complete details of employee compensation. Yet that never happens. Why do you suppose that is?

    • I suppose they could take my "rejected" card for an additional fee. A great way to ensure I never go there again, but up to them I suppose.

      Why would you not go there for paying a credit card fee? Do you not eat now? As it stands you're paying a fee, companies aren't just eating this cost. Honestly that's a super strange position to make a decision based on an additional fee. Where in your post did you discuss the cost vs quality of food you received? The mere presence of a fee making sure you don't go back seems like you weren't that interested in going out to dinner in the first place and are looking for any excuse not to do it again.

  • by dskoll ( 99328 ) on Monday November 10, 2025 @10:06AM (#65785690) Homepage

    Back when I ran a business, we accepted Visa and MasterCard, but not Amex because of the ridiculously-high fees to accept Amex. It didn't hurt our business.

    I would much rather see businesses charge the excess fees to customers than outright reject cards. Use a bog-standard VISA or MasterCard? You pay list price. Use a rewards card whose merchant fee is 1% higher than normal? You pay a 1% surcharge.

    This eliminates market distortion and makes people rationally choose the tradeoff between a regular card and a rewards card.

    • yes. This is fair, to some extent. (as long as the customer can pay with an option that doesn't allow fees) In the UK the did this, you are no longer allowed to be charged the fees, at least they can't be described as such and or must be hidden in the price of the goods.
    • It didn't hurt our business.

      Because it simply wasn't a major card. If you didn't accept Visa or MasterCard you will find your business in a very different position. They have a virtual duopoly in the world. Bonus points in country where the Maestro network has been shut down, now you've locked yourself out of the most common form of transactions since you need to rely on Visa or Mastercard to process even debit transactions.

  • It used to be... (Score:5, Informative)

    by MeNeXT ( 200840 ) on Monday November 10, 2025 @10:07AM (#65785694)

    Visa and Mastercard used to charge less than 1.5% when every part of the transaction was manual. Now that everything is automated we have fees surpassing 5%.

    The only reason that this is possible is because there is very little choice. As a merchant, you either don't accept any cards or you apply the fees on all sales. Some here will say that this is not a monopoly but the industry acts as one.

    In order to accept Visa and Mastercard you only deal with one representative which offers almost identical contracts with most cases the only difference is the name of the credit card. They even dictate the terms of every payment method that you may accept. The only reason they can do this is because there are no other options. In effect a monopoly.

    With that said this will do little to change the situation since it puts the merchant in conflict with the client where the cause of the problem is the impositions of an oligopoly's terms on all payment methods.

    The sad part is that people believe that they are not paying a 5% premium for that 3% reward.

    • The only reason that this is possible is because there is very little choice. As a merchant, you either don't accept any cards or you apply the fees on all sales.

      Point of pedantry: some merchants offer a "cash discount", i.e. they forward the cost of processing only to those with credit cards.

      Some here will say that this is not a monopoly but the industry acts as one.

      In order to accept Visa and Mastercard you only deal with one representative which offers almost identical contracts with most cases the only difference is the name of the credit card. They even dictate the terms of every payment method that you may accept. The only reason they can do this is because there are no other options. In effect a monopoly.

      This is partially true, granted...but not entirely. Target may be big enough to interact with Visa directly, but most vendors instead work through payment processors like FirstData or Clover, who work as a middleman to ensure that businesses who *want* to be able to accept Visa/Mastercard/Discover/AmEx can do so seamlessly. There may be rules, but the outcome is that the busine

    • I suspect in the end, more merchants will adopt the "cash discount" approach, charging a flat percentage to all customers who use credit cards rather than rejecting cards. For high rate cards, this will make the merchants whole. If customers are using a low fee credit card, merchants will just pocket the difference. Keep it simple (and pocket a few extra bucks).
    • The sad part is that people believe that they are not paying a 5% premium for that 3% reward.

      That's sad indeed, but probably rare. The issue we're facing is that rational people are saying "I'd rather pay a 5% premium to get a 3% kickback, than pay a 5% premium and get 0 kickback." Rewards cards put you into a prisoners' dilemma with other purchasers. Stab 'em in back, and you only get ripped off for 2%. Don't stab (i.e. don't use a rewards card) and you get ripped off for 5%.

      Only if you get everyone to co

  • Merchants that accept one kind of Visa credit card wouldn't have to accept all Visa credit cards, for example. Under the current talks, credit-card acceptance would be divided into several categories including rewards credit cards, credit cards with no rewards programs, and commercial cards

    If it's not clear which cards will be taken where based on the logo, then those logos will be devalued. Whichever processor STOPS doing this first will win.

  • There are small businesses, like doughnut shops, that charge extra for using cards. I realise that it is only a dollar (or 10%, whichever is more), but it annoies me. Seeing as it is a purely discretionary purchase, I just don't get doughnuts very often any more.

    Here is the thing: I doubt they keep good enough data to see if the charge is helping or hurting their business.
    • by skam240 ( 789197 )

      I love places like what you mention because it usually means cheaper prices. Now instead of having the credit card fee baked into the cost of everything I can spend cash (which I always have on me) and get a cheaper price then I would have gotten at a place with the fees baked in. This is in fact why these stores do this, so they can offer cheaper prices to their customers who are willing to pay in cash.

      • by Hasaf ( 3744357 )
        That sounds good in theory. Except that it doesn't make it to practice. They charge the same as any other shop in their franchise (or at least the ones that I have visited).

        Very few of the cost-reducing things that supposedly allow business owners to cut prices or pay the workers more ever end up doing that.
        • by skam240 ( 789197 )

          I don't know what to tell you, I do well with this in my own experience when it's applicable. While paying with a card is mildly more convenient I prefer to go to these few spots that are cash only because I'd rather save the money.

          Also, where I'm finding this value isn't chain stores, it's small independent operations. You'll never see this type of thing from major chains as they have bargaining power with card companies so pay significantly less in fees. It's the small independents where there's value to

  • Payment systems in the US are gamed to force everyone to put as many transactions on their account as possible in order to drive more transaction fees, and put more people into debt when they are unable or unwilling to pay off the balance in full.

    Sort if reminds me of that unfortunate fly in Beetlejuice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwV90NvsmAI

    Regrettably, a lot of American banks use the "fly lure" model as a way to lure those with little financial literacy into traps which they find hard to dig out of.

    C

    • by dskoll ( 99328 )

      In Canada, we have the Interac e-payment system that uses your debit card, and has extremely low merchant fees [interac.ca] (between $0.02 and $0.06 per transaction.)

      You can also send Interac e-payments [interac.ca] from your bank account for free with no charge to the recipient either. They are fantastic!

      • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

        We also have 2022 and 2023 settlements of similar merchants vs. credit card companies lawsuits that haven't resulted in mass chaos.

      • I'll pay cash before exposing my bank account via debit card everywhere I spend money. Fuck that, in the largest possible way.

        • by hwstar ( 35834 )

          Stack your loade .45ACP on top of your pile of cash. You may need it.

        • by dskoll ( 99328 )

          That is not how it works. It's a chip-and-PIN system and the merchant never gets your bank details. Payment technology has advanced in most places outside the USA.

          When you do an Interac e-payment, once again neither sender nor recipient knows the other's bank details. All of that is known only to the banks themselves and Interac.

      • by hwstar ( 35834 )

        This is how it should be, but it isn't in the US, and probably never will be unless we get a new constitution and rebuild the government so the pecking order is as follows:

        1. Government fears the people again.
        2. Corporations fear the government

        Until this happens, the same shenanigans will continue to happen.

  • I'm sick and tired of the notion that banks can collect a cut of nearly all retail transactions on the planet. We're switching to all cash for most things we buy. There are places that give discounts for cash, so I'm all in. You should be, too.
  • Seems that years ago the courts ruled that CC companies' demands that retailers hide CC fees in their prices to all customers were illegal, and retailers can and should charge a separate fee depending on the credit card's fee level. In my opinion prices should reflect the cash price and then at the till, the buyer pays the entire CC fee. I'm sure the CC companies don't make it easy for a retailer to find out what the fee is before the transaction is run, though, which needs to change.

    I use a credit card t

  • They really had to compromise there.

  • Really? These cards are charging more than 2.5%, so all this over reducing that fee to 2.4%? That would seem to reward Visa and Mastercard, which wouldn't have to pass along so much of the fee to pay for rewards, which can easily be 2%.

  • All these companies are making record profits and gouging the shit out of me, like the grocery store. So I absolutely, absolutely, use my most fucking expensive card to get what I can back from these price fixing pieces of shit. 25$ legal payout for charging you an extra 2$ on all fucking bread and fixing the prices for 15 years?

    Eat my ass. Someone is going to pay the price for this, and it's not going to be fucking me as you guys expect. I will drop every fucking rewards card and in fact, overall stop usin

  • by CyberSnyder ( 8122 ) on Monday November 10, 2025 @02:15PM (#65786320)

    ...if my card is accepted until I get up the cashier and then find out that I can't pay for my items. This is a terrible idea.

  • by gurps_npc ( 621217 ) on Monday November 10, 2025 @07:32PM (#65787004) Homepage

    That 1.7%+ fee found in North America?

    In France it is 0.4% - at the most. Sometimes it is as low as 0.2%

    Not a type. Less than 1/4 of the amount North America pays.

    No, they do not have the 1% cashback crap. But why would you want to pay 1% more now to MAYBE get 1% back later?

    Cause you are paying that 1% more now.

  • by MooseTick ( 895855 ) on Tuesday November 11, 2025 @01:33PM (#65788320) Homepage

    Its not like cash is free to manage. Sure, credit card fees seem high, but its not cheap for a business to handle cash. There has to be lots of oversight, or that cash goes missing. That oversight is a lot of checks and balances and takes more labor and security efforts to manage. The benefit of credit cards is you can have a black box terminal your employees can use to verify payments but is nearly impossible for them to steal from, especially on a whim.

    If they make credit cards start failing, more and more people will start paying with cash and both merchants and credit card vendors don't want that.

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